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Old 04-09-2017, 11:07 PM
 
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sala-
s-l-o (salo)
(Action: tetra
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Old 04-09-2017, 11:13 PM
 
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sorry
I can not write in Arabic to clarify the origin of a word salat

Source (etsal)

Differs from source ( salat )

Refer to the Arabic language dictionaries so you know the difference
Just apologize because the forum is not allowed to write in Arabic
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Old 04-09-2017, 11:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The commitment is to Allah should be constant.

There are different levels of commitment.
Commit:
to bind or obligate, as by pledge or assurance; pledge:
to commit oneself to a promise; to be committed to a course of action.
Commitment is noun. During assalaat, one is acting (verb) both verbally and physically. The action is never done 24/7 but only 5 times [on average about 20 minutes and about 42 minutes in 24 hours (about 8.4 minutes each session) if one prays sunnah prayer in addition]. Just 42 minutes out of 1440 minutes is not "constant" commitment, is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is just like a spouse who should be absolutely committed to the other.
But in this case, it is committing at "appointed" times such as in the morning, afternoon, evening and at night. And of course you cannot go near this commitment if you are drunk. Those who do not want to pray (commit themselves) should be drunk constantly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The underlying commitment is constant, i.e. 24/7 but one can choose to express one's commitment in different way and at different times but not necessary fixed time of the day everyday.
In that case, assalaat different. It is not commitment that has to be carried out constantly in 24 hours but only at appointed times during the 24 hours. In other words, it can be part of the whole commitment/submission (Islam) but not the WHOLE commitment and the only commitment. Can you now see absurdity of the suggestion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Sex is one expression of commitment between partners but partners do not do it at fixed times everyday as obligatory. There are other ways like valentine days [condemned by many Muslims] and other ways that are expressed in varied time and intervals, but the underlying commitment is constant.
I see! The middle commitment would then be the sex session in the afternoon. If one misses it in the afternoon (did not guard it through forgetfulness), compensate it with evening session (2 sessions together). Yes?

Here is another one about "commitment" replacing "assalaat" in the verse:

[4.101] And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the commitment, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.

So a spouse should shorten the commitment if he is travelling and in danger of unbelievers seeing him having commitment session with his wife.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had stated I am not against praying, prostrating, and the likes [if people need them but none is preferable] but what I counter is doing them at fixed times a day and everyday on the claim [pretext] it is a command by a God.
At appointed times is preferable but not absolutely at only the appointed times. Islam is not that rigid Deen. One can do it at other times too. One can do 2 prayers together at one time. In fact, we pray 2 commitments together twice on the Day of Arafah. In other words, if you can't get time off from work to do your commitment, you can do 2 commitments together when you get time after your work. Appointed time is not for the need of Allah but it is designed to train you to be disciplined person (to keep you away from doing evil at appointed 5 times every day).
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Commitment is noun. During assalaat, one is acting (verb) both verbally and physically. The action is never done 24/7 but only 5 times [on average about 20 minutes and about 42 minutes in 24 hours (about 8.4 minutes each session) if one prays sunnah prayer in addition]. Just 42 minutes out of 1440 minutes is not "constant" commitment, is it?

But in this case, it is committing at "appointed" times such as in the morning, afternoon, evening and at night. And of course you cannot go near this commitment if you are drunk. Those who do not want to pray (commit themselves) should be drunk constantly.

In that case, assalaat different. It is not commitment that has to be carried out constantly in 24 hours but only at appointed times during the 24 hours. In other words, it can be part of the whole commitment/submission (Islam) but not the WHOLE commitment and the only commitment. Can you now see absurdity of the suggestion?

I see! The middle commitment would then be the sex session in the afternoon. If one misses it in the afternoon (did not guard it through forgetfulness), compensate it with evening session (2 sessions together). Yes?

Here is another one about "commitment" replacing "assalaat" in the verse:

[4.101] And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the commitment, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.

So a spouse should shorten the commitment if he is travelling and in danger of unbelievers seeing him having commitment session with his wife.

At appointed times is preferable but not absolutely at only the appointed times. Islam is not that rigid Deen. One can do it at other times too. One can do 2 prayers together at one time. In fact, we pray 2 commitments together twice on the Day of Arafah. In other words, if you can't get time off from work to do your commitment, you can do 2 commitments together when you get time after your work. Appointed time is not for the need of Allah but it is designed to train you to be disciplined person (to keep you away from doing evil at appointed 5 times every day).
The problem is not with your individual views but how the majority of Muslims view the salaat as interpreted from the Quran. Many view salaat as a matter of life in Paradise or death in Hell and thus are very dogmatic with the concept of salaat.

My point here is all Muslims must understand the full concept of what is salaat as stated in the Quran only and no where else.
The underlying essence of 'salaat' [SLW] is 'commitment] by a believer to link, join and bond with Allah to fulfil one's obligation in accordance to Allah's message in the Quran. It is important for a believer to express his commitment each day, either by prayers, meditation, counting beads, contemplation, prostration, etc.
But the reservation is a believer must not be that dogmatic such that there MUST be 5 obligatory prayers at fixed times done with fixed pattern of rituals.

The problem is this dogmatism end up with lots of problems for many Muslims and worst for non-Muslims. Non-Muslims employers are forced to provide prayer rooms else they will be threatened [when Muslims had the power, influence or support of Muslim apologists]. Schools with large non-Muslims are 'forced' to provide prayer rooms and times for Muslims students to pray. Note the case of the recent M103 in Canada.
There are complains of loud speakers [get louder and louder with modern amplifiers and loudspeakers] are blaring the call for prayers all over the world and disturbing the peace of people.
This is all because the Muslims insist it is because Allah said so!!
In reality this is ridiculous when it is impossible for a God to exists!!
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:38 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 666,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The problem is not with your individual views but how the majority of Muslims view the salaat as interpreted from the Quran. Many view salaat as a matter of life in Paradise or death in Hell and thus are very dogmatic with the concept of salaat.

My point here is all Muslims must understand the full concept of what is salaat as stated in the Quran only and no where else.
The underlying essence of 'salaat' [SLW] is 'commitment] by a believer to link, join and bond with Allah to fulfil one's obligation in accordance to Allah's message in the Quran. It is important for a believer to express his commitment each day, either by prayers, meditation, counting beads, contemplation, prostration, etc.
But the reservation is a believer must not be that dogmatic such that there MUST be 5 obligatory prayers at fixed times done with fixed pattern of rituals.

The problem is this dogmatism end up with lots of problems for many Muslims and worst for non-Muslims. Non-Muslims employers are forced to provide prayer rooms else they will be threatened [when Muslims had the power, influence or support of Muslim apologists]. Schools with large non-Muslims are 'forced' to provide prayer rooms and times for Muslims students to pray. Note the case of the recent M103 in Canada.
There are complains of loud speakers [get louder and louder with modern amplifiers and loudspeakers] are blaring the call for prayers all over the world and disturbing the peace of people.
This is all because the Muslims insist it is because Allah said so!!
In reality this is ridiculous when it is impossible for a God to exists!!
Please do not delete this post
I was living in a house close to the mosque of al-Saffar in Mosul
I was a boy
The loudspeakers launched a sermon every Friday
The most important thing in prayer
Is the following verse
Show us the straight path
Way, who bestowed on them
Who are not angry with them or those who are misguided
And so far I remember Friday sermons, a prayer for Christians, Jews and infidels
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Old 04-11-2017, 12:51 AM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,047,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The problem is not with your individual views but how the majority of Muslims view the salaat as interpreted from the Quran. Many view salaat as a matter of life in Paradise or death in Hell and thus are very dogmatic with the concept of salaat.
Whatever way other Muslims or non-Muslims view Salaat is irrelevant to me as I will be judged only on my own actions and views.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My point here is all Muslims must understand the full concept of what is salaat as stated in the Quran only and no where else.
But you know as well as I that not "all Muslims" understand the concept and the purpose of Salaat in the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The underlying essence of 'salaat' [SLW] is 'commitment] by a believer to link, join and bond with Allah to fulfil one's obligation in accordance to Allah's message in the Quran.
I don't see it as "commitment". The word "Salaat" does not mean "commitment" in Arabic. The Arabic word for "commitment" is different from Salaat.

Neither the purpose nor the meaning of The Salaat (Al Salaat) is "commitment" but it is more like a regular spiritual communion with Allah for us to have taqwa (consciousness about Allah). This leads us to be trained in staying away from doing evil at least 5 times in a day. This is not a commitment but a need to serve Allah by being His vicegerent on earth; the purpose for which humans were created. Basically, the purpose is to first praise Allah then declare that you serve Him and then ask to be guided towards the straight path in His service on earth. All this trains us to be good human beings. It is as simple as that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is important for a believer to express his commitment each day, either by prayers, meditation, counting beads, contemplation, prostration, etc.
Expressing commitment is done by the hypocrites too. Expressing on its own means nothing. It is the actual action of serving the purpose that counts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But the reservation is a believer must not be that dogmatic such that there MUST be 5 obligatory prayers at fixed times done with fixed pattern of rituals.
I have already responded to the question of "must" and "fixed". It isn't always like that in practice. "Must" and "fixed" are only for congregations but in individual situations times and pattern of rituals is neither "fixed" nor "must" but flexibility exists. This Deen isn't as rigid as some might imagine it to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The problem is this dogmatism end up with lots of problems for many Muslims and worst for non-Muslims. Non-Muslims employers are forced to provide prayer rooms else they will be threatened [when Muslims had the power, influence or support of Muslim apologists]. Schools with large non-Muslims are 'forced' to provide prayer rooms and times for Muslims students to pray. Note the case of the recent M103 in Canada.
M103 is not about providing prayer room in a school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are complains of loud speakers [get louder and louder with modern amplifiers and loudspeakers] are blaring the call for prayers all over the world and disturbing the peace of people.
I needed rest, peace and extra sleep on a Sunday morning but the church bells wouldn't let me go to sleep. Nobody was complaining about the church bells being so loud. Also, when they go to UAE, knowing fully that the morning call for the prayer would be loud, they still don't mind going there. They don't mind even the Sharia Law there.

Having said that, I do not depend on prayer call but on my watch to go for the prayer these days. Our local masjid do not broadcast loud call for prayer that can be heard outside the masjid area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is all because the Muslims insist it is because Allah said so!!
In reality this is ridiculous when it is impossible for a God to exists!!
I don't insist that you accept God exists. But it does feel sort of so funny when you don't insist that God of churches and synagogues does not exist the same way as you insist that God of mosques does not exist. Church bells are fine but not a loud human voice.
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:46 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I don't see it as "commitment". The word "Salaat" does not mean "commitment" in Arabic. The Arabic word for "commitment" is different from Salaat.

Neither the purpose nor the meaning of The Salaat (Al Salaat) is "commitment" but it is more like a regular spiritual communion with Allah for us to have taqwa (consciousness about Allah). This leads us to be trained in staying away from doing evil at least 5 times in a day. This is not a commitment but a need to serve Allah by being His vicegerent on earth; the purpose for which humans were created. Basically, the purpose is to first praise Allah then declare that you serve Him and then ask to be guided towards the straight path in His service on earth. All this trains us to be good human beings. It is as simple as that.
"Commitment" is an element of 'salaat' and I agree the major element is something like "communion." Note I mentioned the commitment is to link, bond, communicate with Allah. In this case, commitment is more general while 'communion' is more specific.

It is like the general commitment between spouse to be together “till death do us part” but the communion is like the setting of times to deliberate develop and reinforce bonding.
Expressing commitment and communion is not necessary action alone. The whole process cover a range of activities from mental thinking to physical actions.

Quote:
Expressing commitment is done by the hypocrites too. Expressing on its own means nothing. It is the actual action of serving the purpose that counts.
This is off topic. Criminals also express commitment to the leader and gang. As above expressing of commitment cover a range of activities not just serving.

Quote:
M103 is not about providing prayer room in a school.
My mistake. M103 is about the law on blasphemy and "Islamophobia." What I intended to state was the ruling by the Peel School District somewhere in Canada.

Quote:
I needed rest, peace and extra sleep on a Sunday morning but the church bells wouldn't let me go to sleep. Nobody was complaining about the church bells being so loud. Also, when they go to UAE, knowing fully that the morning call for the prayer would be loud, they still don't mind going there. They don't mind even the Sharia Law there.

Having said that, I do not depend on prayer call but on my watch to go for the prayer these days. Our local masjid do not broadcast loud call for prayer that can be heard outside the masjid area.

I don't insist that you accept God exists. But it does feel sort of so funny when you don't insist that God of churches and synagogues does not exist the same way as you insist that God of mosques does not exist. Church bells are fine but not a loud human voice.
As far as noise is concern I and everyone has the right to complain about noise pollution from whatever the source, be it Mosques, Churches, Temples, & wherever. I only mention Mosque because this is an Islam forum. [If I mention anything about Christianity, I am likely to get a warning.]
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Old 04-11-2017, 04:18 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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As far as have read, salaat [SLW] used in the Quran cannot be solely ritual prayers at specific times.
At a glance and comments by others, salaat [SLW] is used in the following contexts;

1) From God to People (Including Muhammad)
2) From People to God
3) From People to Dead People
4) From People to Muhammad

Thus it is not likely to mean ritual prayers to Allah at specific times in specific patterns.

What I will do next is to pick up all the verses with salaat [SLW] and analyze them in details.
Will get back to you after I have finish analyzing all the verses.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As far as have read, salaat [SLW] used in the Quran cannot be solely ritual prayers at specific times.
As I have already stated, "al-salaat" pronounced as "assalaat" when reading the Arabic Qur'aan is meant "the prayer" which is done at appointed time particularly if in a congregation.

Make sure that your analysis is related to "the prayer" ("al-salaat") rather than just "prayer" ("salaat").
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Old 04-12-2017, 01:08 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
As I have already stated, "al-salaat" pronounced as "assalaat" when reading the Arabic Qur'aan is meant "the prayer" which is done at appointed time particularly if in a congregation.

Make sure that your analysis is related to "the prayer" ("al-salaat") rather than just "prayer" ("salaat").
In the midst of my analysis, your point don't hold water.
Note 24:58
24:58
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لِيَسْتَأْذِنكُمُ الَّذِينَ مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ وَالَّذِينَ لَمْ يَبْلُغُوا الْحُلُمَ مِنكُمْ ثَلَاثَ مَرَّاتٍ مِّن قَبْلِ صَلَاةِ الْفَجْرِ وَحِينَ تَضَعُونَ ثِيَابَكُم مِّنَ الظَّهِيرَةِ وَمِن بَعْدِ صَلَاةِ الْعِشَاءِ ثَلَاثُ عَوْرَاتٍ لَّكُمْ لَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَلَا عَلَيْهِمْ جُنَاحٌ بَعْدَهُنَّ طَوَّافُونَ عَلَيْكُم بَعْضُكُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ كَذَٰلِكَ يُبَيِّنُ اللَّهُ لَكُمُ الْآيَاتِ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo liyasta/thinkumu allatheena malakat aymanukum waallatheena lam yablughoo alhuluma minkum thalatha marratin min qabli salati alfajri waheena tadaAAoona thiyabakum mina alththaheerati wamin baAAdi salati alAAisha-i thalathu AAawratin lakum laysa AAalaykum wala AAalayhim junahun baAAdahunna tawwafoona AAalaykum baAAdukum AAala baAAdin kathalika yubayyinu Allahu lakumu al-ayati waAllahu AAaleemun hakeemun


O you who believe! Let ask your permission those whom possess your right hands and those who (have) not reached puberty among you (at) three times, before (the) prayer (of) dawn, and when you put aside your garments at noon and after (the) prayer (of) night. (These) three (are) times of privacy for you. Not on you and not on them any blame after that (as) moving about among you, some of you among others. Thus Allah makes clear for you the Verses, and Allah (is) All-Knower, All-Wise.
I think the above 'prayer' is relevant to your point, but it is not "al-salati" but merely "salati".

So your above point do not have a basis to proceed.

Most of the verses refer to al-salata or al-salati, but I do not believe at this point, it[SLW: salaat] and its derivatives refer exclusively to the fixed ritual prayers and certain fixed/regular time with fixed patterns.
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