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Old 04-12-2017, 02:05 AM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,047,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the midst of my analysis, your point don't hold water.
Note 24:58
24:58
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لِيَسْتَأْذِنكُمُ الَّذِينَ مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ وَالَّذِينَ لَمْ يَبْلُغُوا الْحُلُمَ مِنكُمْ ثَلَاثَ مَرَّاتٍ مِّن قَبْلِ صَلَاةِ الْفَجْرِ وَحِينَ تَضَعُونَ ثِيَابَكُم مِّنَ الظَّهِيرَةِ وَمِن بَعْدِ صَلَاةِ الْعِشَاءِ ثَلَاثُ عَوْرَاتٍ لَّكُمْ لَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَلَا عَلَيْهِمْ جُنَاحٌ بَعْدَهُنَّ طَوَّافُونَ عَلَيْكُم بَعْضُكُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ كَذَٰلِكَ يُبَيِّنُ اللَّهُ لَكُمُ الْآيَاتِ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo liyasta/thinkumu allatheena malakat aymanukum waallatheena lam yablughoo alhuluma minkum thalatha marratin min qabli salati alfajri waheena tadaAAoona thiyabakum mina alththaheerati wamin baAAdi salati alAAisha-i thalathu AAawratin lakum laysa AAalaykum wala AAalayhim junahun baAAdahunna tawwafoona AAalaykum baAAdukum AAala baAAdin kathalika yubayyinu Allahu lakumu al-ayati waAllahu AAaleemun hakeemun


O you who believe! Let ask your permission those whom possess your right hands and those who (have) not reached puberty among you (at) three times, before (the) prayer (of) dawn, and when you put aside your garments at noon and after (the) prayer (of) night. (These) three (are) times of privacy for you. Not on you and not on them any blame after that (as) moving about among you, some of you among others. Thus Allah makes clear for you the Verses, and Allah (is) All-Knower, All-Wise.
I think the above 'prayer' is relevant to your point, but it is not "al-salati" but merely "salati".

So your above point do not have a basis to proceed.
It does but you can't see it.

In this case, "al" ("the") is not with "prayer" but with "fajr" and "isha". In Arabic, the salaat of fajr is called "salaat-al-fajr" and the salaat of isha is called "salaat-al-isha". These are not any salawat (plural) but each is the salaat at appointed times of fajr and isha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Most of the verses refer to al-salata or al-salati, but I do not believe at this point, it[SLW: salaat] and its derivatives refer exclusively to the fixed ritual prayers and certain fixed/regular time with fixed patterns.
Keep analyzing! Ask me as above if you are not sure.
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It does but you can't see it.

In this case, "al" ("the") is not with "prayer" but with "fajr" and "isha". In Arabic, the salaat of fajr is called "salaat-al-fajr" and the salaat of isha is called "salaat-al-isha". These are not any salawat (plural) but each is the salaat at appointed times of fajr and isha.

Keep analyzing! Ask me as above if you are not sure.
I can see that, the word for word translation added "(the)" in the transliteration.
You insisted I look at "al-salata" and not 'salata' or 'salati'.
I am showing your discrepancy.

Noted the times are mentioned but whether it refers to the ritual prayers as in the procedures invented by the ulema in the Ahadiths is very contentious.

Note:
24:41 Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the earth glorifies God? Even the birds in formation, each knows its contact prayer [Şalātahu] and its glorification. And God is fully aware of everything they do.
Does that mean everything in the heaven and earth, and the birds has their ritual prayers? What about rocks and the mountain and everything in the Universe?
Nah.. this cannot be.

This is the reason why we must reconcile the SLW root set re "salaat" to some common denominator, i.e. commitment to fulfill obligation, linkage, communication, bonding, alignment etc. to Allah.
Example, preparing food, cooking, eating dinner are different actions but they are reconcilable under the main common denominator of hunger then survival and with exceptions.

I am continuing with my analysis to get to the bottom and root of the issue.
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Old 04-13-2017, 04:55 AM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,047,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I can see that, the word for word translation added "(the)" in the transliteration.
You insisted I look at "al-salata" and not 'salata' or 'salati'.
I am showing your discrepancy.
This is where your knowledge of the Arabic Qur'aan is found lacking. In Arabic, we do not say al-salaat fajr or al-salaat isha but salaatil fajr and salatil isha which is written as salaat al-fajr and salaat al-isha. It is translated in English as the fajr salaat and the isha salaat. It is still the salaat and not any salaat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Noted the times are mentioned but whether it refers to the ritual prayers as in the procedures invented by the ulema in the Ahadiths is very contentious.
The times mentioned are not for each commitment but each al-salaat. The English word "commit" or even "commitment" is never sol-aa or al-salaat in Arabic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note:
24:41 Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the earth glorifies God? Even the birds in formation, each knows its contact prayer [Şalātahu] and its glorification. And God is fully aware of everything they do.
Does that mean everything in the heaven and earth, and the birds has their ritual prayers? What about rocks and the mountain and everything in the Universe?
Nah.. this cannot be.
It said "salaat" and not "al-salaat". It is their own prayer and not the same as 5 timed prayers ordained in the Qur'aan. Same is mentioned about infidels' prayer (salaat) in 8:35 rather than al-salaat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is the reason why we must reconcile the SLW root set re "salaat" to some common denominator, i.e. commitment to fulfill obligation, linkage, communication, bonding, alignment etc. to Allah.
You can carry on being stuck in three or four letter roots and I will pray for you.

You want to use "commitment" as the common denominator? Do you know the Arabic word for "commitment" and its root set? It won't be SLW. Take the same for the other words and have a nice day solving the self-created conundrums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am continuing with my analysis to get to the bottom and root of the issue.
Let me know after you have hit the jackpot.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,594,359 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This is where your knowledge of the Arabic Qur'aan is found lacking. In Arabic, we do not say al-salaat fajr or al-salaat isha but salaatil fajr and salatil isha which is written as salaat al-fajr and salaat al-isha. It is translated in English as the fajr salaat and the isha salaat. It is still the salaat and not any salaat.
I have never claimed to be an expert and do not intend to be one.
As I had stated to understand the Quran better, basic Arabic is the minimum necessity.
Where I am not sure I will consult the experts or the Net.

Quote:
The times mentioned are not for each commitment but each al-salaat. The English word "commit" or even "commitment" is never sol-aa or al-salaat in Arabic.
The times mentioned are the time for 'commitment' and the related expression of that commitment.

Note Commitment in English is;

Commitment = pledge or bind (a person or an organization) to a certain course or policy.

Analogy:
Let take the hunger drive as a common denominator.
The expression of this common denominator is the different and almost regular times human prepare to meet their hunger needs, e.g. buying food ingredients, preparing, and eating at different times of the day. There is no God that insist that all humans must do the same thing and eat at the same time and way to meet the hunger drive.

It is the same for "salaat", which the common denominator is 'commitment' i.e. pledge, bind to one's obligation under the covenant [WThQ: MiThaQ] with Allah. Allah did not proscribe rigid times and rigid patterns of movement which all Muslims must obey and follow to express the various forms of the 'commitment' i.e. the contractual obligation related to 'salaat'.

Quote:
It said "salaat" and not "al-salaat". It is their own prayer and not the same as 5 timed prayers ordained in the Qur'aan. Same is mentioned about infidels' prayer (salaat) in 8:35 rather than al-salaat.
You are simply messing up the grammar.
It said [Şalātahu] which is 'its salaat' and when each bird perform it, then the context will be the 'al-salaat' i.e. the salaat [the specific] that is performed by each bird.
There are mentioned of 'time/period' with salaat [SLW] and there are also other aspects which are mentioned with salaat [SLW]. Therefore salaat [SLW] cannot be specifically related to some rigid timed prayers invented by some ulema.

Quote:
You can carry on being stuck in three or four letter roots and I will pray for you.
The root system is fundamental to Arabic and Hebrew which Allah had used to reveal his revelations. Therefore one cannot ignore this substantial element of the Arabic language together with it grammar and vocabulary at the time the message was revealed.
If you ignore the root factor, you will not be able to understand Allah detailed [complete] message revealed via Gabriel and Muhammad.

Quote:
You want to use "commitment" as the common denominator? Do you know the Arabic word for "commitment" and its root set? It won't be SLW. Take the same for the other words and have a nice day solving the self-created conundrums.
Let me know after you have hit the jackpot.
Note FWD in 40:44
40:44 Fasatathkuroona ma aqoolu lakum waofawwidu amree ila Allahi inna Allaha baseerun bialAAibadi
To get to SLW [salaat] as commitment the common denominator, one has to take into account WThQ i.e. MiThaQ as in 31:22 and 12:66.
31:22 Waman yuslim wajhahu ila Allahi wahuwa muhsinun faqadi istamsaka bialAAurwati alwuthqa wa-ila Allahi AAaqibatu al-omoori
Waw-Tha-Qaf
to place trust in any one, rely upon, bind.
With salaat [SLW] as commitment as binding, communication, bonding to fullfil one's obligation to Allah as per contract [covenant] entered into with Allah, one is able to reconcile all the verses that contain the root SLW [salaat].

Therefore SLW [salaat] or al-salaat is not rigidly the 5 ritualistic prayers invented by the Ahadith ulema.

As I had stated, a believer can do certain ritual prayers but s/he cannot insist it is an instruction from Allah as there are no such rigid specific procedures from Allah in the Quran.
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Old 04-14-2017, 10:44 AM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,047,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is the same for "salaat", which the common denominator is 'commitment' i.e. pledge, bind to one's obligation under the covenant [WThQ: MiThaQ] with Allah. Allah did not proscribe rigid times and rigid patterns of movement which all Muslims must obeay and follow to express the various forms of the 'commitment' i.e. the contractual obligation related to 'salaat'.
So is it "commitment" or "covenant"? None of them have the root SLW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are simply messing up the grammar.
It said [Şalātahu] which is 'its salaat' and when each bird perform it, then the context will be the 'al-salaat' i.e. the salaat [the specific] that is performed by each bird.
Do the birds know the times for each salaat?

Salaat of birds and unbelievers is not the same as al-salaat of the human believers at appointed times. That's why they are stated as just "salaat" and "al-salaat". You are just imagining that salaat of the birds is al-salaat at appointed times. Al-salaat is only at appointed time. At other times, it is just salaat. Allah has stated each word precisely and for a specific reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are mentioned of 'time/period' with salaat [SLW] and there are also other aspects which are mentioned with salaat [SLW]. Therefore salaat [SLW] cannot be specifically related to some rigid timed prayers invented by some ulema.
Not sure what you are stating here.

Ulema did not invent timed prayers. Even the companions with Muhammad used to pray 5 times a day at each appointed time. This kind of praying did not begin other than from when the verses were gradually revealed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The root system is fundamental to Arabic and Hebrew which Allah had used to reveal his revelations. Therefore one cannot ignore this substantial element of the Arabic language together with it grammar and vocabulary at the time the message was revealed.
If you ignore the root factor, you will not be able to understand Allah detailed [complete] message revealed via Gabriel and Muhammad.
Root system is not there so that you can mix them up and create your own meaning with the root pudding you make yourself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note FWD in 40:44
40:44 Fasatathkuroona ma aqoolu lakum waofawwidu amree ila Allahi inna Allaha baseerun bialAAibadi
To get to SLW [salaat] as commitment the common denominator, one has to take into account WThQ i.e. MiThaQ as in 31:22 and 12:66.
31:22 Waman yuslim wajhahu ila Allahi wahuwa muhsinun faqadi istamsaka bialAAurwati alwuthqa wa-ila Allahi AAaqibatu al-omoori
Waw-Tha-Qaf
to place trust in any one, rely upon, bind.
With salaat [SLW] as commitment as binding, communication, bonding to fullfil one's obligation to Allah as per contract [covenant] entered into with Allah, one is able to reconcile all the verses that contain the root SLW [salaat].
Not with pudding made with WTQ + MTQ = SLW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore SLW [salaat] or al-salaat is not rigidly the 5 ritualistic prayers invented by the Ahadith ulema.
No. Al-salaat is in the Qur'aan. It is in the Qur'aan that it is to be at appointed time. That's why it is described as al-salaat and not just salaat. Al makes it specific rather than any or common. Plural of al-salaat is al-salawat (2:238). Al-salawat are prayers at appointed times. It is good to do some specific exercises but these are flexible. If Aidid Safar can pray only by standing on one leg, it is quite appropriate for him to do so standing only on one leg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had stated, a believer can do certain ritual prayers but s/he cannot insist it is an instruction from Allah as there are no such rigid specific procedures from Allah in the Quran.
All the procedures related to al-salaat that I do, are in the Qur'aan.
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Old 04-19-2017, 01:35 PM
 
4,434 posts, read 1,662,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is a forum for asking question and discussion. Every one has the discretion to do what they want with the flow of information.
Yes, this is a forum of questions. So I asked you a question.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
And then what will happen?
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Old 07-27-2019, 10:48 AM
 
1 posts, read 2 times
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Which is the main Word and then Root Word for Salah الصَّلَاةِ or الصَّلَوَات ?
Defining Quranic Salat " You(Quran Centric 7:43) mentioned Ss-L-W is the root word of Salat and its means Following Closely but according to Mental Bondage by AIDID SAFAR--- "The root of Sol-laa is S-L. It is a two-root word. They are many such words in the Reading. Examples of other two-root words found in the Reading are haq (truth, root: h-q), Abu (father, root: a-b) or yad (hand, root: y-d) or Qama (the keep vigil or attentive, root: q-m). However, knowing that the word Sol-laa does not come from S-l-w or S-l-y but from S-L it does not help us a great deal. S-L is not in the dictionary and S-l-w has only the ‘ritual prayer’ meaning ascribed to it. In the Reading S-l-w means ‘to roast’ and (S-l-y) refers to ‘fry or burn’. The root word for S-l-w is found in 69:31 meaning ‘to roast’ not ritual prayer. It generates yaslau (4:10, 14:29, 17:18 and eight other verses). islau in 36:64 & 52:16, siliya in 19:70 spelt with S-l-alif-y. Here we must pronounce the word with the third letter ‘waw’ or ‘ya’. Therefore it is wrong to assign a third letter to the root of S-L to read as Sl-w.To recap: Sol-laa comes from the root S-L which does not exist in modern Arabic and which defies definition by modern methods. So can anyone explain it, please?
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Old Yesterday, 04:24 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,047,626 times
Reputation: 289
Please check with
corpus.quran.com
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