U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-20-2016, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There are no implicit verses that influence generate evil ethos when all are taken together on any given issue. This is where "SOME evil prone" do not try to understand the Qur'an just like you do not try to understand the Qur'an but you still blame the Qur'an. Both of you lot have same thing in common; ignorance about the Qur'an.
I understand as a believer you MUST deny the existence of the evil ethos within Islam [in part]. This is why you are always in deny.. deny.. deny.. mode which is not good for humanity in the long run.

Here's two analogies to get you to understand your dangerous denial..
Dangerous evil laden elements in the media, movies, ideologies, etc.
1. ~20% of ALL humans has active evil tendencies - the evil prone.
2. There are lots of evil laden elements in the media, movies, News, books, etc.
3. The evil prone are influenced by the evil laden elements in the media to commit evils and violence.
4. The authorities thus control the evil laden elements in the media.

Dangerous drugs and poisonous addictions, etc.
1. ~20% of ALL humans has active evil tendencies - the evil prone.
2. ~20% of ALL humans are prone to drug [dangerous] addiction.
3. The evil prone are influenced by the dangerous drugs [evil elements] to commit evils and violence.
4. The authorities thus control the sources of dangerous drugs [evil elements].
From the above if the authorities do not control the sources of the evil laden elements then they will be irresponsible and expose the threat of these evil laden elements to the whole of humanity.
Those who are promoting and engaging in these evil laden elements should also take responsibility.

The above examples and analogies are the similar to the evil laden elements in the media, books and ideologies.
Dangerous evil laden elements in ideologies, religions etc.
1. ~20% of ALL humans has active evil tendencies - the evil prone.
2. There are lots of evil laden elements in the Quran and Islam [in part].
3. The evil prone are influenced by the evil laden elements in the Quran and Islam to commit evils and violence.
4. The authorities thus control the evil laden elements in the Quran and Islam.
What is going on at present is the authorities are not addressing and controlling the evil laden element in the Quran [extending to Ahadith, Sira, Sunnah] because they stupidly [ignorant, in denial, etc.] assume all religions are perfectly peaceful and not aware there are malignant evil elements within Islam in part.

It is because there is no control over the evil laden elements in the Quran and Islam that the ~20% are continually being influenced and inspired to commit terrible evils and violence on a regular basis and will keep doing so till they make the human species extinct with WMDs.

Quote:
Implication is not in the Qur'an but born in SOME people's mind. There is no such implication in my mind because I studied the Qur'an in depth by taking all the verses on the subject of non-Muslims. It is not even implied that Muslims should kill all non-Muslims. It is not even implied that any Muslim should kill any non-Muslim if the non-Muslim is peaceful and not waging war on Muslims.
This is why you are ignorant of human nature and I have explained many times the difficulty of controlling the "nature" aspect of humans.

Note the first two analogies above;
You will note the authorities main strategy is focused on controlling the sources of the evil laden elements because they understand it is difficult to change the inherent nature of people who are unfortunately born with active evil tendencies.
No doubt the authorities are doing their best to change the nature of the evil prone through education, etc. but the most they can improve are the borderline cases but not those who are hardcore cases.

Note at one time the authorities tried brain surgery to cure these hardcore criminals and other evil prone but the human consideration of abominable. Note the subject of Lobotomy as portrayed in the movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoo Nest".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy

The Scientists, psychology, psychiatry and relevant authorities realized at the present it is quite impossible to cure the "hardcore" [the more difficult] cases of the evil prone.
I hope you get this knowledge into your brain and get to know reality instead of keep denying and avoiding real knowledge.

Therefore your pointing to the mind of the evil prone is pure ignorance and contributing to no positive results at all.

You cannot selfishly interpret from your own point of view and those of the 80% of moderates Muslims BUT ignore the reality of the ~20% evil prone and how they would interpret the DUCK-RABBIT evil laden nature of the verses of the Quran [exaggerated by the Ahadith, sira, Sunnah].
The fact is this is a proven reality where the evil prone reading the same Quran are inspired to commit terrible evil and there is no way [Allah cannot appear] to judge who is right or wrong.

There is no way [at present] to cure the hardcore evil prone Muslims reading the same Quran and there is nothing you [& the 80% moderates] can do to stop them from doing their duty as 'good' [in their eyes] to act out the commands of the Quran which turn out to be evil in reality.

Since we cannot change the hardcore evil prone Muslims the only possible effective strategy is to deal with the evil laden elements in the Quran and Islam. Actually, Muslims [Quran-Only] like you had already taken the one good step by ignoring the exaggerated Ahadith. But as with any good and effective problem solving strategy, this is not enough, one has to tackle the problem at its roots, i.e. the Quran from Muhammad.

Therefore humanity must deal critically with the evil elements of Quran-inspired-evil commit by the cannot-be- cured-at-present evil prone Muslims.
How? Humanity must use its collective brain to deal with these evil laden elements in the Quran and find solutions therefrom.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-20-2016, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The overriding Moral Maxim in the Qur'an is:

Muslims must incline to live in peace with non-Muslims if those non-Muslims incline to live in peace with Muslims. Peace, justice and kindness is the first priority. The wisdom behind it is not only because of humanity in general but because even enemy can become your friend one day. That's what had happened in Mecca 1400 years ago. Umar was once one of the enemies of Muhammad. Khalid bin Waleed did lead the charge on Muslims at Uhad and it was because of him that many Muslims were killed at Uhad. Yet, both of them turned out to be great friends of Muhammad.

[41.34] And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! He between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

Verses like this in the Qur'an are not there if other verses imply differently. Verses like 41:34 and 60:8-9 are there so that wrong implication does not get even born in people's minds.
I have already explained what is an overriding Absolute Moral Maxim and how they are to be used to implement morality and ethics more effectively.

With reference to the most serious evils of all, i.e. taking the life [killing] another human, the moral maxim MUST be absolute without any conditions at all, i.e. absolute.
In this specific subject of "the evil of killing," Judaism and Christianity's "Thou Shalt Not Kill" [Period!! not ifs and not buts] is very effective and an excellent moral approach.
All other main religions [Eastern, etc.] deal with the evil of killing with the same absolute maxim "Thou Shalt Not Kill" [Period!! not ifs and not buts].

Islam is the only religion [amongst the main] which ignore the absolute moral maxim "Thou Shalt Not Kill" [Period!! not ifs and not buts] by compromising it with conditions of its and buts.

Your above examples are not Absolute Overriding Moral Maxims to deal with the greatest evil of humanity, i.e. the taking of the life of another human being.

The closest the Quran comes to it is that 'kill one kill mankind' verse but that is not absolute because that is also conditional, has holes and in fact it was reference to the Jews and not Muslims.


Quote:
There is no threat to Islam without threat to all Muslims. Islam cannot be destroyed unless ALL Muslims are destroyed. The guidance in the Qur'an in situation such as cartoon (mockery) is not to kill them but to move away from them:

[4.140] And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah's messages disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell.

[2.15] Allah shall pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.


In such a case, it is not up to Muslims to kill them if they mock but just move away from them and let them do whatever they are doing. Mockery is not a threat; killing Muslims (waging war against Muslims) is the threat.
The above are bad views and thinking.
In all my presentations I don't blame all Muslims and even the evil prone Muslims for the evil they have committed. Muslims are not a threat to humanity. What is necessary is the Muslims as human beings must progress as how human being ought to progress in general.
The root cause of Islamic-inspired evils and violence is the set of evil laden elements in the Quran.
Therefore it makes no sense to destroy Muslims who are fellow human beings like all other human beings.

The point is if the evil laden elements within the Quran and Islam are not dealt with they will continue to influence and inspire the ~20% of evil prone humans who are Muslims, now or in the future.

Your "unless ALL Muslims are destroyed" makes no sense because if they are destroyed now without dealing with evil laden elements in the ideology, in future other humans will start to be Muslims again the ~20% will continue to be influenced by the ideology. Therefore it is the evil laden elements of the ideology that is critical to be dealt with.

Quote:
It is cheap talk when you ignore the vast majority of Muslims as the real evidences.
I have already explained why we must apply the Pareto Principle in Problem Solving. Those who do not apply the Pareto 80/20 principles are very incompetent problem solver.
I wonder whether you understand the criticalness of how to apply the Pareto's 80/20 principle in problem solving.

Quote:
There are no commands of Allah in the Ahadith except in the Hadith of Allah (the Qur'an). There are no indirect commands in the Qur'an from Allah. All Allah's commands in the Qur'an are direct when all are taken together on any one issue. The Qur'an is the whole Qur'an and not only part of it in isolation from the rest of it. Muslims must believe in the whole of it (3:119). One is not a believer if he believes in only part of it and disbelieves in the other part.
The majority of the evil laden elements in the Ahadiths are influenced by the evil laden elements in the Quran.

For example, in the Ahadiths, Muslims are exhorted to cast terrors on non-Muslims to the extent it is recommended Muslims must create terror incidents at least twice a year to ensure the non-Muslims are kept in a permanent state of terror.
Allah did not command Muslims to cast terror at least twice a year, but this is exaggerated from the evil laden elements of Allah's mentioned of casting terror on non-believers which when taken into the overall contexts with other evil laden elements influenced and imbued that sense of committing evil into the evil prone Muslims.
This effect is manifested as reality as real terrible evils committed by the evil prone Muslims.

Quote:
The problem is not the Qur'an but some ahadith that are not from Allah or even from the messenger. A lot of crap in ahadith is in contradiction to the commands and guidance in the Qur'an. Ahadith are not Islam but Islam is only from Allah that was completed as a favor and perfected in its laws when 5:3 was revealed. The rest after that, the ahadith, should never have been accepted as Islam.
I have given the above examples and there are many other examples where the evil committed by the evil prone via the Ahadith are referenced to the Quran. In many other instances the evil prone [not only terrorists but also other evil Muslims] quote from the Quran to justify their evil acts.
If the Ahadith do not align with the Quran this can be easily identified objectively, e.g. covering of hair hizab, stoning for adultery, etc.

Quote:
Yes, ahadith are the problem; not the Qur'an. My Islam is based on the Qur'an and no non-Muslim is in danger from me here in the West or anywhere else (unless I am physical attacked by a non-Muslim first for being a Muslim). Such ifs and buts are not evil elements but justice elements and deterrents to help keep peace.
The Ahadith are a problem and the majority of them are aligned with the evil laden elements of the Quran.
Based on what you had posted, I can take it that you will not be influenced by the evil laden elements in the Quran.
But one cannot be too sure since ALL humans has the potential to be evil. You may not have an active evil potential at present, but the evil potential in you can be let loose permanently under certain conditions if your inhibitors are weakened due to brain damage, drugs, old age, a knock on the head, or whatever reason etc.
If you are physically attacked or threaten by any one there is no need to refer to your religion, i.e. as a Muslim, all you have to do is do what is naturally to being a human being, i.e. spontaneously defend yourself by counter attack or run if you are in a weaker position. There is no need to refer to the Quran to do what is natural and common sense to a human being.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-24-2016, 04:40 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have already explained what is an overriding Absolute Moral Maxim and how they are to be used to implement morality and ethics more effectively.
Such an Absolute Moral Maxim is in words only and has never been adhered to absolutely at any time in practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
With reference to the most serious evils of all, i.e. taking the life [killing] another human, the moral maxim MUST be absolute without any conditions at all, i.e. absolute.
In practice, in real situations, particularly in a war situation, Absolute Moral Maxim makes no sense at all as it will benefit the aggressor only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In this specific subject of "the evil of killing," Judaism and Christianity's "Thou Shalt Not Kill" [Period!! not ifs and not buts] is very effective and an excellent moral approach.
There is no such approach in Judaism and Christianity; it never was in practice at any time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
All other main religions [Eastern, etc.] deal with the evil of killing with the same absolute maxim "Thou Shalt Not Kill" [Period!! not ifs and not buts].
None deal with it as you claim. None adhere to it in practice without ifs and buts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Islam is the only religion [amongst the main] which ignore the absolute moral maxim "Thou Shalt Not Kill" [Period!! not ifs and not buts] by compromising it with conditions of its and buts.
So does Judaism! Just read the OT and the sequence of killings that began immediately after the 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' commandment which was supplemented by 'life for life' (that's kill for kill).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your above examples are not Absolute Overriding Moral Maxims to deal with the greatest evil of humanity, i.e. the taking of the life of another human being.
These are of course overriding Moral Maxim in practice and in real situation (not in words only).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The closest the Quran comes to it is that 'kill one kill mankind' verse but that is not absolute because that is also conditional, has holes and in fact it was reference to the Jews and not Muslims.
As I have already stated, there never has been an "absolute" a 'no kill' without any condition even in Judaism. It is conditional even in Judaism. As for 'kill one kill mankind' verse, it is not a reference to the Jews only but it goes further back to the sons of Adam. In Judaism, it was 'life for life' but in the Qur'an it is about saving of a life if possible before 'life for life'. This is improvement in the Qur'an on 'life for life' in the OT.

Quote:
The above are bad views and thinking.
In all my presentations I don't blame all Muslims and even the evil prone Muslims for the evil have committed. Muslims are not a threat to humanity. What is necessary is the Muslims as human beings must progress as how human being ought to progress in general.
The root cause of Islamic-inspired evils and violence is the set of evil laden elements in the Quran.
Therefore it makes no sense to destroy Muslims who are fellow human beings like all other human beings.

The point is if the evil laden elements within the Quran and Islam are not dealt with they will continue to influence and inspire the ~20% of evil prone humans who are Muslims, now or in the future.
Only Muslims adhere to the Qur'an. No Muslims, no Qur'an, no "evil laden element" no more evil prone Muslims and no more killings due to 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' prevailing as the Absolute Moral Maxim. Therefore, it is logically good view and thinking for complete peace and no killings with Absolute Moral Maxim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your "unless ALL Muslims are destroyed" makes no sense because if they are destroyed now without dealing with evil laden elements in the ideology, in future other humans will start to be Muslims again the ~20% will continue to be influenced by the ideology. Therefore it is the evil laden elements of the ideology that is critical to be dealt with.
If ALL Muslims are destroyed, the Qur'an will exist no more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have already explained why we must apply the Pareto Principle in Problem Solving. Those who do not apply the Pareto 80/20 principles are very incompetent problem solver.
I wonder whether you understand the criticalness of how to apply the Pareto's 80/20 principle in problem solving.
In the business of this forum, the problem-solving is done by the Qur'anic principles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The majority of the evil laden elements in the Ahadiths are influenced by the evil laden elements in the Quran.
I disagree! The sources of ahadith and verses of the Qur'an are completely different. Ahadith are not approved by the Qur'an.

The majority of the evil committed by so-called Muslims is due to their lack of knowledge about the principles in Al-Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
For example, in the Ahadiths, Muslims are exhorted to cast terrors on non-Muslims to the extent it is recommended Muslims must create terror incidents at least twice a year to ensure the non-Muslims are kept in a permanent state of terror.
Not supported by the Qur'an! I regard such ahadith outside Islam as they are not from Allah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Allah did not command Muslims to cast terror at least twice a year, but this is exaggerated from the evil laden elements of Allah's mentioned of casting terror on non-believers which when taken into the overall contexts with other evil laden elements influenced and imbued that sense of committing evil into the evil prone Muslims.
That may seem so to you according to your faulty understanding but it isn't so according to my understanding of the Qur'an. There is no command in the Qur'an for the Muslims to cast terror on non-Muslims. Therefore, as I have already explained, such terrors and "mentioning of casting terror" by these so-called Muslims, and non-Muslims like you respectively, are due to them lacking Qur'anic knowledge. They (Muslims) can't make themselves Gods and cast terror.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This effect is manifested as reality as real terrible evils committed by the evil prone Muslims.
Evil prone are not influenced by the Qur'an but influenced by the shaytan due to their lack of knowledge about the Qur'anic principles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have given the above examples and there are many other examples where the evil committed by the evil prone via the Ahadith are referenced to the Quran.
Wrong!
Ahadith and the Qur'an sources are completely different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In many other instances the evil prone [not only terrorists but also other evil Muslims] quote from the Quran to justify their evil acts.
There is nothing in the Qur'an that justifies evil acts. If there had been anything that justifies evil acts, I and millions of other Muslims would also be committing evil acts. This is why the terrorists or other evil Muslims can't recruit those who know that no verse of the Qur'an justifies evil act. And that's why I keep away from doing evil acts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If the Ahadith do not align with the Quran this can be easily identified objectively, e.g. covering of hair hizab, stoning for adultery, etc.
Hijab (modesty) is in the Qur'an. Stoning to death is not. I do not need ahadith to be in Islam. Can yove me one example in which I need ahadith to be in Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Ahadith are a problem and the majority of them are aligned with the evil laden elements of the Quran.
I disagree!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Based on what you had posted, I can take it that you will not be influenced by the evil laden elements in the Quran.
I would have been influenced by the evil laden elements in the Qur'an but there are no evil laden elements in the Qur'an to influence me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But one cannot be too sure since ALL humans has the potential to be evil. You may not have an active evil potential at present, but the evil potential in you can be let loose permanently under certain conditions if your inhibitors are weakened due to brain damage, drugs, old age, a knock on the head, or whatever reason etc.
LOL!

The Qur'an isn't going to be the cause of any knock on my head and damage my brain. The Qur'an has been a brilliant teacher to me in teaching me to control my Nafs (Self). No weakness will touch it now in relation to controlling my Nafs. As for old age, it is a blessing for me as I become more and more humble in my life (again taught by the same teacher). Drugs; not a chance! Drugs have destroyed too many lives (they are effectively the WMDs today).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you are physically attacked or threaten by any one there is no need to refer to your religion, i.e. as a Muslim, all you have to do is do what is naturally to being a human being, i.e. spontaneously defend yourself by counter attack or run if you are in a weaker position. There is no need to refer to the Quran to do what is natural and common sense to a human being.
This is why Absolute Moral Maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' is useless in some real life situations. You have just illustrated that there have to be ifs and buts in decision making during real life situations. Taking into account of conditions, limits, rules of engagement, fairness, justice and right to defend one's life under attack all play their role when considering moral action. Absolute Moral Maxim is useless because it takes all that away and ties the hands of victims behind their back and evil rules supreme. There must be some deterrent against evil. There is no deterrent against evil in 'Though Shalt Not Kill'.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-24-2016, 09:59 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Such an Absolute Moral Maxim is in words only and has never been adhered to absolutely at any time in practice.
Point is you are totally ignorant of how morality proper is implemented.
Absolute Moral Maxims are essential as a guide for effectively morality and ethics and no one is expected to comply with it absolutely in practice. The reality there is no perfection is reality but 'perfect' absolute morality is very imperative as the ultimate limit.

Quote:
In practice, in real situations, particularly in a war situation, Absolute Moral Maxim makes no sense at all as it will benefit the aggressor only.
As explained above, an absolute Moral Maxim is a guide to the ultimate morality but when circumstances do not warrant perfect morality then one must act in according to the circumstances without giving up the absolute Moral Maxim in the background.

As it is at present, the worst evils are committed by SOME evil prone Muslims because there are no ultimate absolute Moral Maxim to hold back these evil prone Muslims back when they have the advantage in a war situation where they commit mass rapes, genocides, terrible evils all sorts of violence. This is because the morality elements of the Quran and Islam are conditional, thus second class, low grade on this aspect.

Quote:
There is no such approach in Judaism and Christianity; it never was in practice at any time.
None deal with it as you claim. None adhere to it in practice without ifs and buts.
How do you know? Did you go into the minds of all the Jews and Christianity to find out?
What is obvious is merely this one class of evils in comparison to the acts of Jews and Christians at present, i.e. [28,868]



Show me a comparison from the Jews and Christians who acted on the verses of their holy texts.
This comparison is one indication 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' without ifs and buts has worked.

As for comparison with Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, the comparison is very obvious, i.e. no Buddhists, Jains, etc. has ever committed terrible evils based on texts from their holy books.

Quote:
So does Judaism! Just read the OT and the sequence of killings that began immediately after the 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' commandment which was supplemented by 'life for life' (that's kill for kill).
I know there are lots of evil elements in the OT and some in the NT. However the absolute Moral Maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' without ifs, buts and other conditions has prevailed at the present because it is always there in the holy book.
There is no absolute Moral Maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' without ifs, buts and other conditions, in the Quran and the spirit of Islam, that is why it leaves holes for the evil prone Muslims [unfortunately born so] to commit terrible evils and violence, e.g. the statistics above!

Quote:
These are of course overriding Moral Maxim in practice and in real situation (not in words only).
Yes, there are Moral Maxim in practice and in real situations but they are not overriding as absolute moral maxims without any conditions.

Quote:
As I have already stated, there never has been an "absolute" a 'no kill' without any condition even in Judaism. It is conditional even in Judaism. As for 'kill one kill mankind' verse, it is not a reference to the Jews only but it goes further back to the sons of Adam. In Judaism, it was 'life for life' but in the Qur'an it is about saving of a life if possible before 'life for life'. This is improvement in the Qur'an on 'life for life' in the OT.
The 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' is an absolute statement by itself without conditions, no ifs or but. As for 'kill one kill mankind' verse in the Quran, it is very conditional. Read the related verses again and note this point is extensively debated and clearly highlighted, it is conditional and not absolute.

Quote:
Only Muslims adhere to the Qur'an. No Muslims, no Qur'an, no "evil laden element" no more evil prone Muslims and no more killings due to 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' prevailing as the Absolute Moral Maxim. Therefore, it is logically good view and thinking for complete peace and no killings with Absolute Moral Maxim.
There are lots of evil laden elements in the Quran and all its moral elements are conditional. This conditional elements leave room for the evil prone Muslims [unfortunately born with active evil tendencies] to commit terrible evils and violence.

Quote:
If ALL Muslims are destroyed, the Qur'an will exist no more.
If ALL Muslims are destroyed at any moment in time say, t1, then there is no one practicing Islam at that period t1, but because Islam is an ideology it will can never be destroyed. Note like the ideology of Nazism, Islam can be revived later at t2 even ALL if all Muslims are destroyed at t1. Therefore it is useless to address the problem to ALL Muslims and evil prone Muslims who are unfortunately born with evil tendencies.
To fight an evil ideology one has to counter it with another good ideology. It was easier to counter ideology like Nazism, fascism, communism but it very much difficult to counter religious-based ideologies because the emotional and psychological drives are very deeply embedded in the brain/mind.

Quote:
In the business of this forum, the problem-solving is done by the Qur'anic principles.
You are so blinded and desperate, thus failed to understand what are the Principles of effective universal Problem-Solving Techniques. It all rely on the Quran, the human species will go extinct sooner than expected. [likely in the future].

I disagree! The sources of ahadith and verses of the Qur'an are completely different. Ahadith are not approved by the Qur'an.

Quote:
The majority of the evil committed by so-called Muslims is due to their lack of knowledge about the principles in Al-Qur'an.
Not supported by the Qur'an! I regard such ahadith outside Islam as they are not from Allah.
Did you remember, I appended a note to state whenever I mention the Ahadith, it do not relate to you personally.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-24-2016, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That may seem so to you according to your faulty understanding but it isn't so according to my understanding of the Qur'an. There is no command in the Qur'an for the Muslims to cast terror on non-Muslims. Therefore, as I have already explained, such terrors and "mentioning of casting terror" by these so-called Muslims, and non-Muslims like you respectively, are due to them lacking Qur'anic knowledge. They (Muslims) can't make themselves Gods and cast terror.
Note your "according to my understanding" that is only based on one person view amongst 1.5 billion Muslims around the world. That is very bad thinking on your part. You cannot ignore the reality of the 1.5 billion Muslims with different psychology around the world.
Note my 'DUCK-RABBIT' illustration where different people can perceive either good or evil from the same source of sense data or same verses in the Quran.

The fact is the verses and elements in the Quran are presented [by humans not a God] in such a way that it contain evil laden elements which influenced and inspired the evil prone Muslims [unfortunately born that way] to commit terrible evils and violence.
The proof of my above point is so glaringly obvious as supported this set [there are many types] of evils and violence, 28,868.



Quote:
Evil prone are not influenced by the Qur'an but influenced by the shaytan due to their lack of knowledge about the Qur'anic principles.
Note my explanation above. Because the Quran was authored by human[s] and since humans has evil elements potentials, the evil elements [Shaytanic] are imbued within the Quran. The evidence is proven by that one specific set of statistics above.

Quote:
There is nothing in the Qur'an that justifies evil acts. If there had been anything that justifies evil acts, I and millions of other Muslims would also be committing evil acts. This is why the terrorists or other evil Muslims can't recruit those who know that no verse of the Qur'an justifies evil act. And that's why I keep away from doing evil acts.

I disagree!
I would have been influenced by the evil laden elements in the Qur'an but there are no evil laden elements in the Qur'an to influence me.
Note the reality of ~20% evil prone Muslims and ~80% of moderate good Muslims.
Since you are within the 80% of good Muslims, that is why you are not committing terrible evils and violence. However as I had warned, don't be too sure about yourself since ALL humans has evil potentials which can be realized any time due to various reasons.

Quote:
Hijab (modesty) is in the Qur'an. Stoning to death is not. I do not need ahadith to be in Islam. Can yove me one example in which I need ahadith to be in Islam.
Note my point in the earlier post which I know you are a Quran-Only Muslim, therefore N/A.


Quote:
LOL!
The Qur'an isn't going to be the cause of any knock on my head and damage my brain. The Qur'an has been a brilliant teacher to me in teaching me to control my Nafs (Self). No weakness will touch it now in relation to controlling my Nafs. As for old age, it is a blessing for me as I become more and more humble in my life (again taught by the same teacher). Drugs; not a chance! Drugs have destroyed too many lives (they are effectively the WMDs today).
Don't me too sure you will be accident free. You could be walking down the street and a small stone could fall on your head or whatever accident could happen and the Quran could be wiped off from your memory or the evil mechanisms are triggered. Then you will become a Jihadist. Don't be too sure because as a human, you cannot be 100% certain.

Quote:
This is why Absolute Moral Maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' is useless in some real life situations. You have just illustrated that there have to be ifs and buts in decision making during real life situations. Taking into account of conditions, limits, rules of engagement, fairness, justice and right to defend one's life under attack all play their role when considering moral action. Absolute Moral Maxim is useless because it takes all that away and ties the hands of victims behind their back and evil rules supreme. There must be some deterrent against evil. There is no deterrent against evil in 'Though Shalt Not Kill'.
Yes, we have to apply ifs and buts in different life situations because that is the reality.
However, there must be the Absolute Moral Maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' to act as the overriding ceiling limit. There must be the Absolute Moral Maxim to close any holes and any eventualities. It is the last moral barrier to cover all possibilities of evils.

Let's say in a war, soldiers are licensed as professionals to kill.
If there is no Absolute Moral Maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' with no ifs and buts, then SOME very evil prone soldiers will even kill babies and innocent children, women, the weak, etc. This had happened with many wars and SOME Muslims in wars.

But if the soldiers are well minded and morally tuned with Absolute Moral Maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' with no ifs and buts, morally [own standards or a religious precepts] then these moral soldiers will not kill babies and innocent children, women, the weak, etc.

Some soldiers who are Christians or Jews may not abide by the Absolute Moral Maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' and kill innocent people, then they will have to face God on Judgment Day and they will definitely be punished severely in Hell.

On the other hand, there is no Absolute Moral Maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' with no ifs and buts, in the Quran and Islam. The good Muslims [like yourself] will not kill innocent arbitrary in a war, but there are a pool of 20% of evil prone Muslims [unfortunately born that way] who will kill innocent non-Muslims and even other Muslims because there is no overriding ceiling moral maxim in the Quran [from their DUCK-rabbit sense data] to limit them to kill the innocents.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-25-2016, 02:18 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note your "according to my understanding" that is only based on one person view amongst 1.5 billion Muslims around the world. That is very bad thinking on your part.
It is my understanding against your understanding rather than my understanding against the understanding of 1.5 million Muslims. You are thinking too far away from the reality of what I had said.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-25-2016, 02:40 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Evil prone are not influenced by the Qur'an but influenced by the shaytan due to their lack of knowledge about the Qur'anic principles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note my explanation above. Because the Quran was authored by human[s] and since humans has evil elements potentials, the evil elements [Shaytanic] are imbued within the Quran. The evidence is proven by that one specific set of statistics above.
I am going to give you something that is spot on, and you need to make a note of it because it is going to become quite apparent in future when all else has failed to halt terrorism.

You completely ignored the pivotal factor of having knowledge of the Qur'anic principles and not having knowledge of the Qur'anic principles. Most terrorists who kill innocent people (Muslims and non-Muslims alike) lack knowledge of the Qur'anic principles.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-25-2016, 03:10 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,792 times
Reputation: 204
to- Khalif
you must go and look for what meaning
n-a-e-k - نايك
in Arabic language
Greetings to that Islamic preacher
Who does not know the meaning of his name in the language of the Koran preaches to peoples scientifically delayed
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-25-2016, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is my understanding against your understanding rather than my understanding against the understanding of 1.5 million Muslims. You are thinking too far away from the reality of what I had said.
You did not qualify your 'My understanding" thus it refer to your personal understanding and not to the 1.5 billion Muslims.

As for the 1.5 billion Muslims their understanding of the Quranic verses are split into millions of different understandings. The majority of the 1.5 do not even have any kind of reasonable degree of their own 'understandings' but rather are merely blindly following whatever their Islamic authorites are shafting down their throats and into their brains.

Therefore you are wrong in pitting my understanding with the understanding of 1.5 million. This is a big fallacy [crime of thought] you are making here.

At most your understanding is restricted to the Quran-Only Muslims [very small minority] and even then within the Quran-Only groups there are various groups with different views on the Quranic verses.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-25-2016, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I am going to give you something that is spot on, and you need to make a note of it because it is going to become quite apparent in future when all else has failed to halt terrorism.

You completely ignored the pivotal factor of having knowledge of the Qur'anic principles and not having knowledge of the Qur'anic principles. Most terrorists who kill innocent people (Muslims and non-Muslims alike) lack knowledge of the Qur'anic principles.
You are very ignorant in this case and with such views.

Note, you need to take note of these facts:

1. The terrorists are led by Muslims who are very well verse with the Quranic principles in accordance to what in in the Quran and recited by Muhammad. Note Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has a doctorate in Islamic Studies.
I am certain there are many within the top echelons of ISIS and other terrorist groups who are very well verse with the Quranic principles and practices of Islam as practiced by Muhammad and his companions.
In additions there are many Muslims down the rank who are very familiar with the Quranic principles and practices

2. The point is the verses in the Quran are presented with DUCK-RABBIT elements and either way an elements can be interpreted as 'good' relative to the person[s] perspective and both are right but one of the interpretations results in terrible evils and violence around the world.

3. Another point is, no Muslims within ISIS and other groups would dare to do anything based on their own personal urges and thoughts in any relation to the practice of Islam. Otherwise they will go to Hell.
Therefore whatever deeds they act in the name of Islam MUST be based on the Quran from Allah or Ahadith as divine authority.

4. The 'SOME' evil prone Muslims who killed innocent people [other than collateral incidents] are not interpret as innocent but as enemies of Islam based on Quranic verses and principles.

5. WHO ARE YOU! as merely a slave, to judge on behalf of Allah on the deeds and acts of those 'SOME' evil prone Muslims.

This is why it is so critical for a wise God to lay down Absolute Moral Maxim for the most critical potential evils so that it is fool proof and then decide on Judgment Day on the variations [in practice] to the absolute moral maxim.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top