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Old 07-14-2016, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,

You do not need to learn Arabic to understand the Qur'an. Using all the translations available, you will get very close to understanding the Qur'an for your personal understanding. But if you want to debate about the verses of the Qur'an or debate about Islam (the Qur'an), you may be found out lacking Arabic knowledge. For this reason, I suggest that you look into the translations and note the words of Arabic translated differently in English translations. Then try to understand (you can ask here) why the difference in translation. You can then get to the heart of the matter.
Agree on this.

Personally I do NOT think reading the Quran in Arabic is a MUST [imperatively] to understand the message of the Quran.
I believe referring to various English translations, I refer to more than 45++ English translations and various commentaries are sufficient [albeit not the best] to understand the intended message of the Quran. After all Allah stated specifically the main message of the Quran is intended to be easy for any one interested to understand.

Quote:
Learning Arabic, beginning with Arabic Alphabet, will take you too long to learn Arabic. One of the main problems you will face is understanding Arabic grammar. It is quite complicated for non-Arabic speakers.
Yes, I understand, grammar is the most difficult aspect of any language. I believe to grasp the grammar of Arabic will take some time.

However I believe I have some advantage [due to my understanding of the Quran] at the present in the addressing the grammar difficulty.
My purpose is not to be a competent Arabic speaker and communicator. My sole purpose of learning Arabic is merely to understand the Quran in Arabic.

I [believe] already have a reasonable grasp of the message of the Quran. So I am working backward from the understood message [translated] to understand the Quranic Arabic rather than learning Arabic to understand the Quran.
So what I will be doing is to review all the grammar usage of the 6,236 verses [ONLY and nothing else] of the Quran and see their mechanics and usage.

I have some ideas of grammar in Arabic, e.g.
The verb "to be" is not necessary to form a simple sentence.
•Arabic has two grammatical genders.
•Arabic words are formed according to a root system.
•Arabic verbs change according to the subject.
The various plurals.
prepositions, negation, questions, adverbs, and pronouns
I will try to cover all the grammatical rules of Arabic and review how they are applied within the 6,236 verses in the Quran. This aspect of grammar will take time due to its inherent difficulty.

Btw, [advice needed] what are the more serious grammatical issues within the Quran that I need to pay attention to?
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Old 07-14-2016, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,

The sketch in your initial post shows where the sound of each of these Arabic letters comes from (lips, teeth, tongue or throat, and whether you have to open your mouth wide or not. This is for speaking Arabic and reciting the Arabic Qur'an properly (tajweed). Reciting the Qur'an is an art in itself. I can read the whole Arabic qur'an but am not very good when it comes to tajweed. As I have no need to be a professional reciter (such as Imam or scholar), I have concentrated on actual "message" rather than the in what sound the "message" is. To me, it is more important to understand the "message" and learn to act accordingly than understand its sound but not its substance.
I understand the standard presentation of the alphabets are from أ [alif] to ي [yaa] like A ->Z.

However I think it would be more effective for me to focus on the mechanical progression of sound from the base of the throat [أ [alif]] to the outer lips و [waw] [see the chart]. In this case I can focus on the progression of the mechanics within the mouth that produce the sound.

Since the sound in also critical in reading the Quran, I might as well start this way with a focus on the sound. This approach is catching two birds with one stone, i.e. sound and [words] message at the same time.
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Old 07-14-2016, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You will find it to be an interesting venture. If you also desire to learn to read and write Arabic, I suggest you learn MSA (Modern Standard Arabic) If your primary goal is to understand the Qur'an then it would be best to learn Qur'anic Arabic. It is much easier to learn, but of no help in learning to converse in Arabic. While learning MSA would give a usable level of comprehension in any Arabic form. For Quranic Arabic pronunciation is essential as many words will change meaning depending upon the pronunciation. The Quran is intended to be heard not read, with the written Qur'an being simply a memory aid for the Hafiz.

Here is a link for learning MSA, The free download and staying with the free version should suffice. It is a good starting point. I do not recommend any of the paid language programs unless a person has exposure to Arabic speaking people. They fast become boring if you have no one to practice on.


Free Language Learning Software Downloads


A very good extremely basic introduction is "Arabic School" designed for children. Although the free version does not go much beyond learning the alphabet, it is a good starting point. I do not recommend the full paid version for adults as it fast becomes redundant.


Arabic School Software (for beginners) - Free download and software reviews - CNET Download.com
Thanks for the links, I will have look.

At present, my primary goal is not to understand the Quran because I believe I already have a reasonable grasp of the message of the Quran, after reading the whole Quran more than 50 times and spending so much time [full time basis] in researching on it plus reading a wide range of commentaries and discussion in this forum.

I don't think there are things hidden in Arabic in the Quran that I cannot know via the more than 45++ English translations that I refer to. Do you think there is something in the Quran that I will never ever know unless I read the Quran Arabic?

My sole purpose of learning Arabic is solely is to enable me to read the Quranic verses in Arabic. As I mentioned in the OP this project of mine will avoid Muslims throwing excuses at me that I will not understand the Quran if I don't read it in Arabic.

I don't intend to learn Arabic to speak and communicate in Arabic for other purposes. On the side it may be of some use if I happen to visit Arabic speaking countries as a tourist, which I don't think will happen because of the real fears [not irrational fears] of the potential threats and violence from SOME evil prone Muslims.
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Old 07-15-2016, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Thanks for the links, I will have look.

At present, my primary goal is not to understand the Quran because I believe I already have a reasonable grasp of the message of the Quran, after reading the whole Quran more than 50 times and spending so much time [full time basis] in researching on it plus reading a wide range of commentaries and discussion in this forum.

I don't think there are things hidden in Arabic in the Quran that I cannot know via the more than 45++ English translations that I refer to. Do you think there is something in the Quran that I will never ever know unless I read the Quran Arabic?

My sole purpose of learning Arabic is solely is to enable me to read the Quranic verses in Arabic. As I mentioned in the OP this project of mine will avoid Muslims throwing excuses at me that I will not understand the Quran if I don't read it in Arabic.

I don't intend to learn Arabic to speak and communicate in Arabic for other purposes. On the side it may be of some use if I happen to visit Arabic speaking countries as a tourist, which I don't think will happen because of the real fears [not irrational fears] of the potential threats and violence from SOME evil prone Muslims.

Sounds like your best option is to concentrate on studying MSA, which currently is the most widely used form and used in nearly all current Arabic literature and newspapers.


Regarding this:


Quote:
I don't think there are things hidden in Arabic in the Quran that I cannot know via the more than 45++ English translations that I refer to. Do you think there is something in the Quran that I will never ever know unless I read the Quran Arabic?

By reading multiple translations and commentaries you will be able to gain a very good grasp of the meanings. Learning Arabic you will gain an understanding for the differences and become better qualified to judge which are the most accurate. The Qur'an does contain things many of us will never understand. There are things that were intended only for Muhammad(saws) to understand and some things for specific people. possibly not yet born.
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Old 07-15-2016, 03:18 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
At present, my primary goal is not to understand the Quran because I believe I already have a reasonable grasp of the message of the Quran, after reading the whole Quran more than 50 times and spending so much time [full time basis] in researching on it plus reading a wide range of commentaries and discussion in this forum.
You may think that you have reasonable grasp of the message of the Qur'an, after reading the translations more than 50 times. But I am quite sure, judging by your expression about certain verses of the Qur'an, you do not have reasonable grasp of overall message of the Qur'an on any one given issue. This has been my contention with you all along rather than you being a mere being unbeliever has been the contention.

I must also mention, to be fair with you, you know more about the Qur'an than most Islam haters who quote verses from the Qur'an only to show that they understand the Qur'an well.

Quote:
I don't think there are things hidden in Arabic in the Quran that I cannot know via the more than 45++ English translations that I refer to. Do you think there is something in the Quran that I will never ever know unless I read the Quran Arabic?
Yes. Basically, you will not know which word of the Arabic Qur'an has been translated differently and which translation is the best translation of the word in the Arabic Qur'an. Take, for example, the word "muttaqeen". In English translations, some say, "those conscious of Allah", some say, "those who ward off (evil)", some say, "those who fear Allah", some say, "those who guard (against evil)", and others, "God fearing" or "pious and righteous persons". Which is the best translation for Muttaqeen? In my understanding, it is "those who are conscious of Allah" because they have "taqwa". Having taqwa is an essential quality of a believer rather than excessive love of this world, greed, pride, hatred or enmity towards a fellow human. If one is conscious of Allah (and His guidance), s/he will humble himself/herself so much that s/he will think before any of his/her action that it is not an evil action and that s/he will be accountable in the Court of Allah one day. In other words, humanity comes first to such a person (with taqwa) rather than his/her link to a religion, tribe, country or gender group etc.

For this reason, I always check with the Arabic Qur'an if I am not sure about any translation. Arabic is not my first language but I can read the whole Qur'an in Arabic and understand most of the Arabic words in the Qur'an. Knowing Farsi (Persian) and Urdu has also helped me a lot to understand The alphabet حروف in all three languages are of the same nature and written from right to left (unlike English). Many words in Farsi and Urdu are of Arabic origin. This is how I found many Arabic words easy to understand. You do not have that benefit.

Quote:
My sole purpose of learning Arabic is solely is to enable me to read the Quranic verses in Arabic. As I mentioned in the OP this project of mine will avoid Muslims throwing excuses at me that I will not understand the Quran if I don't read it in Arabic.
The real reason you will not understand the Qur'an is not that you do not understand Arabic but because you are unable to bring together all the verses in the Qur'an on the same issue, topic and subject. This means you miss out on the explanation of a verse that might be somewhere else in the Qur'an but you are unaware of it. I can back up my argument with another verse but you are often left with your only single view based on a single verse that may be, if taken in isolation, outside the context of the overall message of the Qur'an. In other words, I can have a full picture in front of me whereas you are left with only part of the picture.
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Old 07-15-2016, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Sounds like your best option is to concentrate on studying MSA, which currently is the most widely used form and used in nearly all current Arabic literature and newspapers.
Since my focus is on the Quran, shouldn't I focus on the Quranic Arabic?

Btw, are most of the Qurans written in Quranic Arabic or MSA?
When I read the Arabic from Pickthall, e.g.
MixPicthall 1)
001.001 In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Bismi Allāhi Ar-Raĥmāni Ar-Raĥīmi
بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ
صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّالِّينَ

Is the above Arabic in MSA or Quranic Arabic?

Appreciate your answer as I do not one to waste time focusing on the wrong version.
I will reading the above [English-transliterations-Arabic] side by side when I read and analyze the verses.

Quote:
Regarding this:
By reading multiple translations and commentaries you will be able to gain a very good grasp of the meanings. Learning Arabic you will gain an understanding for the differences and become better qualified to judge which are the most accurate. The Qur'an does contain things many of us will never understand. There are things that were intended only for Muhammad(saws) to understand and some things for specific people. possibly not yet born.
I did not mean those supposedly hidden meaning that are intended for Muhammad only.

What I meant is a comparison between an average reader who knows Arabic and a reader who do not read the Quran in Arabic.
Assuming both put in reasonable efforts [read many time, refer to many translations {50}, read commentaries] I believe the person who read the Quran in English will not miss out the critical elements in the Quran.
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Old 07-15-2016, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You may think that you have reasonable grasp of the message of the Qur'an, after reading the translations more than 50 times. But I am quite sure, judging by your expression about certain verses of the Qur'an, you do not have reasonable grasp of overall message of the Qur'an on any one given issue. This has been my contention with you all along rather than you being a mere being unbeliever has been the contention.
So on all our contentious points I am very confident I have the right view in terms of what the Quran intended. I am just being humble to claim I have a reasonable grasp, say 60-75% but personally I am confident it is much higher than that because I analyzed the Quran from within its Quran-box and also outside its box taking into account the whole universe, reality and human nature.

Take for example the Quran term 'Deen' دين . What you have is merely an understanding of the term 'Deen' within the Islam-box which is very narrow and crude. Even then your understanding of it is very narrow.
I raised the OP on 'What is 'Deen' دين from its supposed total perspective and so far what I have discussed in only an introduction to the topic.

Quote:
I must also mention, to be fair with you, you know more about the Qur'an than most Islam haters who quote verses from the Qur'an only to show that they understand the Qur'an well.
I accept your point but it is fair to say that to any average person who has put in that same amount of efforts I have done. I disagree with our term 'Islam-haters' rather most who are anti-Islam [not Muslims] are critiques [many are intellectual based] in response to the REAL evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are naturally [& unfortunately] born with active evil tendencies.

Quote:
Yes. Basically, you will not know which word of the Arabic Qur'an has been translated differently and which translation is the best translation of the word in the Arabic Qur'an.
Take, for example, the word "muttaqeen". In English translations, some say, "those conscious of Allah", some say, "those who ward off (evil)", some say, "those who fear Allah", some say, "those who guard (against evil)", and others, "God fearing" or "pious and righteous persons". Which is the best translation for Muttaqeen?

In my understanding, it is "those who are conscious of Allah" because they have "taqwa". Having taqwa is an essential quality of a believer rather than excessive love of this world, greed, pride, hatred or enmity towards a fellow human. If one is conscious of Allah (and His guidance), s/he will humble himself/herself so much that s/he will think before any of his/her action that it is not an evil action and that s/he will be accountable in the Court of Allah one day. In other words, humanity comes first to such a person (with taqwa) rather than his/her link to a religion, tribe, country or gender group etc.
Hey..
I was the one who raised an OP on this topic;
Al-Muttagin

One of my forte is in "Religions and Spirituality" of humanity and I have done lots of in depth research on the topic of 'God-consciousness' and what 'God-consciousness' really is from the non-theistic perspectives.

I suggest you get out of your Islamic-box at least for a while and research on what others have been dealing with regarding to God-consciousness in the various perspectives.

Here is a related article on this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_consciousness
Here are some others;

see bottom of this link;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_consciousness

ĀlayavijŮāna
Bodhi
Buddha-nature
Cosmic Consciousness (book)
Divine presence
Eckhart Tolle
Eight Consciousnesses
Enlightenment (spiritual)
Gnosis
Ho'oponopono
Irfan
Light (theology)
Manas-vijnana
Mindstream
Nirvikalpa Samadhi
Samādhi
Taqwa, God-consciousness in Islam
The above is merely a sample and not exhaustive. The topic is very wide and I am familiar with most of them.

Quote:
For this reason, I always check with the Arabic Qur'an if I am not sure about any translation. Arabic is not my first language but I can read the whole Qur'an in Arabic and understand most of the Arabic words in the Qur'an. Knowing Farsi (Persian) and Urdu has also helped me a lot to understand The alphabet حروف in all three languages are of the same nature and written from right to left (unlike English). Many words in Farsi and Urdu are of Arabic origin. This is how I found many Arabic words easy to understand. You do not have that benefit.
Language is just a tool. If I don't have the specific tools I can still use the best next alternatives. With sufficient alternatives and a Master tool, I would have no problem getting to the point.

Quote:
The real reason you will not understand the Qur'an is not that you do not understand Arabic but because you are unable to bring together all the verses in the Qur'an on the same issue, topic and subject. This means you miss out on the explanation of a verse that might be somewhere else in the Qur'an but you are unaware of it. I can back up my argument with another verse but you are often left with your only single view based on a single verse that may be, if taken in isolation, outside the context of the overall message of the Qur'an. In other words, I can have a full picture in front of me whereas you are left with only part of the picture.
You forgot easily.

I have stated many times I have done a very detail analysis of all the 6,236 verses in the Quran in the Excel Software where I can mark all verses with similar themes, topics and subjects [not words which I can do from an index or Search].
I have more than 300++ themes, topics, subjects in term of main, sub-topics, sub-sub-topics. It is still work-in-progress, there are more topics to be marked and analyze.

From the Excel Software I can pull out all the verses by sorting out the specific topic.
This is how I claim more than 55% of the 6,236 contain evil laden elements of some degree of contempt to non-Muslims.
I hope you will remember my points above so you do not undermine my credibility again and again merely because of your bad memory.

One point you should note is the Quran have more verses that focus on the elements of non-Muslims than on elements re Allah, Muslim, Muhammad, Paradise, etc.

If based on emphasis of elements, the Quran should be named 'The Contempt of Non-Muslims'. If you want to prove me wrong do a detailed analysis of the Quran yourself to justify your claim.

Last edited by Continuum; 07-15-2016 at 07:53 PM..
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Old 07-15-2016, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The real reason you will not understand the Qur'an is not that you do not understand Arabic but because you are unable to bring together all the verses in the Qur'an on the same issue, topic and subject. This means you miss out on the explanation of a verse that might be somewhere else in the Qur'an but you are unaware of it. I can back up my argument with another verse but you are often left with your only single view based on a single verse that may be, if taken in isolation, outside the context of the overall message of the Qur'an. In other words, I can have a full picture in front of me whereas you are left with only part of the picture.
Another point on this is [assuming both of us are average] I am certain I am more capable and efficient than you on this matter because I am using a Computer Software to sort and link the voluminous of data from the 6,236 verses.

You cannot have a fuller picture and more efficient than me because mentally it is difficult for you to pick up the related nuances of the issues at all times.

The advantage of using a Computer Software [Excel] is I can go through the marking and identification in many rounds to pick out what I missed the earlier rounds. In addition I rate the criticalness of each element and the verse in relation to the subject, e.g. 1[low] to 9[high]. From this ready base I can continually improve and polish on the results.
It is quite impossible [very difficult] for you to do this based on memory and mental ability especially when you are older [you mentioned you're retired] as there is a correlation between memory ability, retention, and recall with age.
You may use a Search Engine based on a word index but that is very limited.
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Old 07-15-2016, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Since my focus is on the Quran, shouldn't I focus on the Quranic Arabic?

Btw, are most of the Qurans written in Quranic Arabic or MSA?
When I read the Arabic from Pickthall, e.g.
MixPicthall 1)
001.001 In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Bismi Allāhi Ar-Raĥmāni Ar-Raĥīmi
بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ
صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّالِّينَ

Is the above Arabic in MSA or Quranic Arabic?

Appreciate your answer as I do not one to waste time focusing on the wrong version.
I will reading the above [English-transliterations-Arabic] side by side when I read and analyze the verses.

I did not mean those supposedly hidden meaning that are intended for Muhammad only.

What I meant is a comparison between an average reader who knows Arabic and a reader who do not read the Quran in Arabic.
Assuming both put in reasonable efforts [read many time, refer to many translations {50}, read commentaries] I believe the person who read the Quran in English will not miss out the critical elements in the Quran.

I have not ever seen any Translation that showed both the English and Arabic in which the Arabic was not Qu'ranic. A strong indication of Qu'ranic is the inclusion of pronunciation marks. In recent years there have been printings of translations into MSA in which the book will contain both Qur'anic and MSA with the MSA being considered a translation. I have not personally seen such, just recall reading a few years ago they were being used in Saudi.


Looking with my poor vision your example appears to be Qur'anic with the Tajweed pronunciation marks. Comparing that with an actual Qur'an we have


Your example


بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ
صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّالِّينَ


From a Qur'an written with proper tajweed


بِسْمِ اللّهِ الرَّحْمـَنِ الرَّحِيمِ




لْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
الرَّحْمـنِ الرَّحِيمِ
مَـالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ
اهدِنَــــا الصِّرَاطَ المُستَقِيمَ

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنعَمتَ عَلَيهِمْ غَيرِ المَغضُوبِ عَلَيهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّالِّينَ





The major difference between MSA and Qur'anic is the pronunciation. The second big differences are the pronunciation marks.


Now addressing your first question.


Quote:
Since my focus is on the Quran, shouldn't I focus on the Quranic Arabic?

I can only speak from personal experience. I first learned the Moroccan Darija and the Qur'anic Tajweed and now find it is making it very difficult for me to learn MSA. I feel if I had learned MSA first it would have made it easier to have learned the Qur'anic and would have not made it so difficult for me to learn MSA now.
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Old 07-15-2016, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I have not ever seen any Translation that showed both the English and Arabic in which the Arabic was not Qu'ranic. A strong indication of Qu'ranic is the inclusion of pronunciation marks. In recent years there have been printings of translations into MSA in which the book will contain both Qur'anic and MSA with the MSA being considered a translation. I have not personally seen such, just recall reading a few years ago they were being used in Saudi.


Looking with my poor vision your example appears to be Qur'anic with the Tajweed pronunciation marks. Comparing that with an actual Qur'an we have


Your example


بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ
صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّالِّينَ


From a Qur'an written with proper tajweed


بِسْمِ اللّهِ الرَّحْمـَنِ الرَّحِيمِ


لْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
الرَّحْمـنِ الرَّحِيمِ
مَـالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ
اهدِنَــــا الصِّرَاطَ المُستَقِيمَ

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنعَمتَ عَلَيهِمْ غَيرِ المَغضُوبِ عَلَيهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّالِّينَ


The major difference between MSA and Qur'anic is the pronunciation. The second big differences are the pronunciation marks.

Now addressing your first question.

I can only speak from personal experience. I first learned the Moroccan Darija and the Qur'anic Tajweed and now find it is making it very difficult for me to learn MSA. I feel if I had learned MSA first it would have made it easier to have learned the Qur'anic and would have not made it so difficult for me to learn MSA now.
Thanks.

Click the Link and you can see it in bigger font
http://transliteration.org/quran/Web...cthall/001.asp

Looks like I will have to cover both Quranic Arabic and MSA at the same time with greater emphasis on the Quranic Arabic.
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