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Old 07-17-2016, 12:14 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,497 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A misuse of Hadith, which quite frequently happens by both Non-Muslims and Muslims. Ahadith are not intended for general, individual purposes, they are to be used as sources of Islamic Jurisprudence under the Madhabs and following the consensus of the ulemah (Recognized Scholars)
This is a common excuse used by Muslims when the hadith says something they don't like....like Muhammed's rape of a child or his slaughter of people who spoke against him. Or his terrorism. Etc.

The quran says that muhammed is a perfect example of conduct. The hadiths tell how Muhammed acted.

33:21
Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
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Old 07-17-2016, 01:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A misuse of Hadith, which quite frequently happens by both Non-Muslims and Muslims. Ahadith are not intended for general, individual purposes, they are to be used as sources of Islamic Jurisprudence under the Madhabs and following the consensus of the ulemah (Recognized Scholars) None of the Madhabs call for the killing of dogs nor forbids the owning of dogs.

However, we are for bidden to keep any animal in captivity, not just dogs, except for those raised for food or other non-pet purposes and even then they must be provided with free range daily.
So.. was it a righteous or a wicked thing to kill those animals? Whatever the use of the hadith, it just speaks plainly of the actions of muhammed right? And whatever the regulations might be now, or the animal friendliness among muslims is now, this is what muhammed did then and his writings is what your religion is based on. And you can see that on the youtube videos posted by juju, this is not just a thing from the past. Can you find me a video of Christians killing a dog like that?

What he did is obviously wicked. From the Doctrina Jacobi: "He is deceiving. For do prophets come with sword and chariot?, …[Y]ou will discover nothing true from the said prophet except human bloodshed"

Have you an example of any prophet from the Old Testament that came with like bloodshed?
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Old 07-17-2016, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
This is a common excuse used by Muslims when the hadith says something they don't like....like Muhammed's rape of a child or his slaughter of people who spoke against him. Or his terrorism. Etc.

The quran says that muhammed is a perfect example of conduct. The hadiths tell how Muhammed acted.

33:21
Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

Not even a Muslim should be using the Ahadith as a personal guide. Bukhari established the collection of Ahadith as a tool to be used for the purpose of Islamic Jurisprudence.


The Ahadith are best understood by someone who has a background in Islamic Jurisprudence and an understanding of how/why each was categorized and verified. They have no pertinent information for the average person except as a tool to verify the origin and meaning of Sharia.


The example of Muhammad(saws) is best understood through the Sunnah and Sira neither of which was saved in written form and the transmission of such ended with the last Sahaab (Companion of Muhammad) However there is reason to believe the 4 Madhabs are based upon them and through traditional practices, Also in the Sahih Ahadith. But one must be aware that those are often truncated portions of something larger and both Bukhari and Muslim classified them into the categories they felt most applicable. Also the number of times a Hadith is repeated does not determing their validity as most are repeated many times because they applied to multiple categories.


For example: Bukhari numbered over 7,000 Ahadith, but there are only about 2,000 most being repeated in multible categories. The Collection of Muslim is predominetly a duplication of Bukahiri but using different categories.




The many other collections are to a large extent derived from Bukhari and Muslim with the Ahadith not contained in Bukhari or Muslim being unverified.
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Old 07-17-2016, 02:19 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,497 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Not even a Muslim should be using the Ahadith as a personal guide. Bukhari established the collection of Ahadith as a tool to be used for the purpose of Islamic Jurisprudence.


The Ahadith are best understood by someone who has a background in Islamic Jurisprudence and an understanding of how/why each was categorized and verified. They have no pertinent information for the average person except as a tool to verify the origin and meaning of Sharia.


The example of Muhammad(saws) is best understood through the Sunnah and Sira neither of which was saved in written form and the transmission of such ended with the last Sahaab (Companion of Muhammad) However there is reason to believe the 4 Madhabs are based upon them and through traditional practices, Also in the Sahih Ahadith. But one must be aware that those are often truncated portions of something larger and both Bukhari and Muslim classified them into the categories they felt most applicable. Also the number of times a Hadith is repeated does not determing their validity as most are repeated many times because they applied to multiple categories.


For example: Bukhari numbered over 7,000 Ahadith, but there are only about 2,000 most being repeated in multible categories. The Collection of Muslim is predominetly a duplication of Bukahiri but using different categories.




The many other collections are to a large extent derived from Bukhari and Muslim with the Ahadith not contained in Bukhari or Muslim being unverified.
You like to make claims about Islam that, when researched, do not seem to bear out. The hadiths are used as important tools for understanding the Quran and commentaries and learning about Muhammed's actions as the prophet of Islam. Like it or not. And "a tool to be used for the purpose of Islamic Jurisprudence". Indeed. Do you understand what importance THAT gives hadith?

You want to eat your cake and have it, too.

More on Islam and dogs today:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Enm2_jIOjPw ( I was ROFL!!)

Here's another nut:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnHU0p198Q

Too funny!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV7Alpyx0Kg

WOW! Do not live with non-Muslims!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH6V8ryaiWM
ROFL!

Allah gives some dogs rabies, then doesn't know that a dog can be vaccinated against rabies in the future and does not get that it is safer to keep a dog in the house to keep it from getting rabies. The law of identity is not a strength for allah!
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Old 07-17-2016, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
So.. was it a righteous or a wicked thing to kill those animals? Whatever the use of the hadith, it just speaks plainly of the actions of muhammed right? And whatever the regulations might be now, or the animal friendliness among muslims is now, this is what muhammed did then and his writings is what your religion is based on. And you can see that on the youtube videos posted by juju, this is not just a thing from the past. Can you find me a video of Christians killing a dog like that?

What he did is obviously wicked. From the Doctrina Jacobi: "He is deceiving. For do prophets come with sword and chariot?, [Y]ou will discover nothing true from the said prophet except human bloodshed"

Have you an example of any prophet from the Old Testament that came with like bloodshed?

The Ahadith are the statements of witnesses. Some written many years after the event and based upon the memory of the witness. There are varying levels of Authenticity and reliability among the Ahadith. High Authenticity means the recitation of the witness was passed down through multiple unrelated sources (Isnad) A full Ahadith collection gives all the Isnads of each Hadith. The reliability is determined by the number of unrelated witnesses seeing the same event at the same time. The highest Reliability being a minimum of 4 independent witnesses reporting essentially the same thing.


The only Ahadith that Muhammad(saws) personally recited as Ahadith are the 40 Hadith Qudsi.


https://www.scribd.com/document/38653/40-Hadith-Qudsi




All the rest are based upon the memory and or opinion of the witness. Many if not all having never been heard or told to Muhammad(saws).


Without a strong background in the study of Ahadith and familiarity with Islamic Jurisprudence, a person is not going to learn much by reading the Hadith collections.
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Old 07-17-2016, 02:43 PM
 
1,353 posts, read 726,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Ahadith are the statements of witnesses. Some written many years after the event and based upon the memory of the witness. There are varying levels of Authenticity and reliability among the Ahadith. High Authenticity means the recitation of the witness was passed down through multiple unrelated sources (Isnad) A full Ahadith collection gives all the Isnads of each Hadith. The reliability is determined by the number of unrelated witnesses seeing the same event at the same time. The highest Reliability being a minimum of 4 independent witnesses reporting essentially the same thing.


The only Ahadith that Muhammad(saws) personally recited as Ahadith are the 40 Hadith Qudsi.


https://www.scribd.com/document/38653/40-Hadith-Qudsi




All the rest are based upon the memory and or opinion of the witness. Many if not all having never been heard or told to Muhammad(saws).


Without a strong background in the study of Ahadith and familiarity with Islamic Jurisprudence, a person is not going to learn much by reading the Hadith collections.

I am not trying to learn much on hadith history, I am just questioning the "righteousness" of muhammed, supposing the hadith is reliable which describes his actions. So if we just take the hadith for what it says (in a couple of them by the way, not just one), and I think it's fair to assume it's reliable, then my question still stands:


"So.. was it a righteous or a wicked thing to kill those animals?"

and:

"Have you an example of any prophet from the Old Testament that came with like bloodshed?"
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Old 07-17-2016, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
So.. was it a righteous or a wicked thing to kill those animals? Whatever the use of the hadith, it just speaks plainly of the actions of muhammed right? And whatever the regulations might be now, or the animal friendliness among muslims is now, this is what muhammed did then and his writings is what your religion is based on. And you can see that on the youtube videos posted by juju, this is not just a thing from the past. Can you find me a video of Christians killing a dog like that?

What he did is obviously wicked. From the Doctrina Jacobi: "He is deceiving. For do prophets come with sword and chariot?, [Y]ou will discover nothing true from the said prophet except human bloodshed"

Have you an example of any prophet from the Old Testament that came with like bloodshed?

Quote:
Have you an example of any prophet from the Old Testament that came with like bloodshed?

Check out The Biblical doings of Moses, David, Solomon, Joshua and several others.


How about Sodom and Gomorrah? Noah and the flood, Samson and the Temple, to save time and because I am lazy check these links (none are Islamic sites):


Old Testament Mass Killings - bethinking.org


Cruelty and Violence


Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran? : NPR


Cruelty and Violence in the Bible


What the Bible Really Says by J. R. Hyland - Chapter 9: THE VIOLENT PROPHETS: From Humane Religion
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Old 07-17-2016, 03:10 PM
 
1,353 posts, read 726,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Check out The Biblical doings of Moses, David, Solomon, Joshua and several others.


How about Sodom and Gomorrah? Noah and the flood, Samson and the Temple, to save time and because I am lazy check these links (none are Islamic sites):


Old Testament Mass Killings - bethinking.org


Cruelty and Violence


Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran? : NPR


Cruelty and Violence in the Bible


What the Bible Really Says by J. R. Hyland - Chapter 9: THE VIOLENT PROPHETS: From Humane Religion
Sodom and Gomorrah was a divine judgment by the hand of God Himself, same goes for the flood, not by the hand of a prophet. Samson wasn't a prophet, he was a judge, big difference. And he was giving the strength and authority from God to execute judgment. Same goes for Joshua, King David, King Solomon, Moses.. these were all kings, judges or leaders of the Jewish people that were directly under the authority and command of God and executing His judgments.

And some of it was indeed sinful, as the killing of Uriah by David. But the Bible never pretends it wasn't, and David repented from it. And mind you, that was before the New Covenant. Muhammed came centuries after Christ and wasn't a part of the Jewish people.

But you are still evading the question, I was talking about the prophets, individuals that were called by God to prophesy, but weren't leading a country, like Muhammed. Where is the bloodshed of Jeremiah, Joel, Jona or Habbakuk, Isaiah or Ezekiel?
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Old 07-17-2016, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
I am not trying to learn much on hadith history, I am just questioning the "righteousness" of muhammed, supposing the hadith is reliable which describes his actions. So if we just take the hadith for what it says (in a couple of them by the way, not just one), and I think it's fair to assume it's reliable, then my question still stands:


"So.. was it a righteous or a wicked thing to kill those animals?"

and:

"Have you an example of any prophet from the Old Testament that came with like bloodshed?"



For the first question, the Hadith do not give enough information to know if it was or was not righteous. In order to understand the Ahadith you do need to know the origin of each one. Also know that most Hadith are only a small portion of what was actually said or done.


My own understanding of what I believe about dogs. Here is my wife with our dog







For the second question see my above post
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Old 07-17-2016, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
Sodom and Gomorrah was a divine judgment by the hand of God Himself, same goes for the flood, not by the hand of a prophet. Samson wasn't a prophet, he was a judge, big difference. And he was giving the strength and authority from God to execute judgment. Same goes for Joshua, King David, King Solomon, Moses.. these were all kings, judges or leaders of the Jewish people that were directly under the authority and command of God and executing His judgments.

And some of it was indeed sinful, as the killing of Uriah by David. But the Bible never pretends it wasn't, and David repented from it. And mind you, that was before the New Covenant. Muhammed came centuries after Christ and wasn't a part of the Jewish people.

But you are still evading the question, I was talking about the prophets, individuals that were called by God to prophesy, but weren't leading a country, like Muhammed. Where is the bloodshed of Jeremiah, Joel, Jona or Habbakuk, Isaiah or Ezekiel?

and where was the violence by Muhammad(saws) except in the minds of Islam haters and those with no understanding of the Ahadith.


No where does the Qur'an, Muhammad(saws) or the Ahadith justify violence except as a last resort in self defense.
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