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Old 07-25-2016, 06:04 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here's something new for you.
In the video below the Al-Fatiha is recited without the "Bismi ...." .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ7dP2BBmLM


I am learning the recitation of Chapter 1 and I believe that is one effective way to understand the Arabic language in practice and for purpose of reading the Quran in Arabic.

I have heard many recitations of al-fatiha that is where I came across many recitations that do not start with the 'Bismi allahi ..".
Is one of this alternative 'shirk'??


Many recitations added the 'seek refuge from Satan .." verse.




The sin of Shirk is the act of worshiping any one besides Allaah(swt) or in addition to Allaah (swt)


To make changes is "Bidah" (innovations). As to if they are committing a sin in doing so, many factors must be considered. including but not limited to: Knowledge, Intent, Freedom of Choice etc.




As to what constitutes sin is very individual. There are various factors that need to be considered in order for a person to be considered responsible of a sin.


1. The individual needs to have had access to information that an act is a sin.
2. They must perform it of their own free will
3. They must have had access to the knowledge they are doing wrong.
ETC




The beginning a reading or recitation of the Qur'an with "A-ozu billahi mena shaitaan Arrajeem" is a short prayer asking we be protected from distractions.


"Shaitan" is not a specific name of an entity, Although Iblis is often referred to as Shaitan or "The Shaitan". Shaitan is anything or any person that leads us astray. The most dangerous and most persistent Shaitan any of us will ever face are our own innermost thoughts.


The "A-ozu billahi mena shaitaan Arrajeem" (I seek Allaah(swt)'s protection from all Shaitan, the accursed) is not part of a recitation it is a sort personal prayer many say prior to reading or reciting the Qur'an.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 07-25-2016 at 06:18 AM..
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Old 07-25-2016, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I am not exactly sure what is meant by you as 'Ahamdu I lah' camp. Are you referring to the words said (1:2) or a group like Ahmadis who think there are 6 verses in Al-Fatiha? Ahmadi translations have 6 verses in Al-Fatiha. Bismillah is not included in the numbering.

Bissmillah is said by me as is said by all that I personally know. It is so because the reference in the Qur'an 15:87 is reference to the 7 verses of Al-Fatiha that are repeated quite often.

If you go to a mosque of mainstream Muslims and observe any of the morning, evening or the night prayer, there is a short gap between the initial Allahu Akbar recited by the imam to begin the prayer and before he begins to recite Al-Fatiha from 1:2. Bissmillah (1:1) is said silently by all (including the imam) during that gap just before the recitation from 1:2 begins.
What I have read there are two camps, i.e. two groups with different views and practices regarding the 'Bismilah.' Not sure if they are the Ahamadis.
To arrive at the 7 verses to meet requirement of 15:87, the usual long verse 1.7 is split into two verses.

One of the argument [if I am not mistaken] is are the following;
1. Bismillah is not recited in the other 112 verses.
2. The elements of the Bismillah are already in 1:3 [the conventional Al fatiha]

I am not sure about the silence before the Al-Fatiha before the prayer since I have not been in a mosque during prayer times.
However I read there is a silence phase for the iman or other person to say the Al-Fatiha silently if the iman is not the reciter? [to be confirm].
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Old 07-25-2016, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I am not exactly sure what is meant by you as 'Ahamdu I lah' camp. Are you referring to the words said (1:2) or a group like Ahmadis who think there are 6 verses in Al-Fatiha? Ahmadi translations have 6 verses in Al-Fatiha. Bismillah is not included in the numbering.

Bissmillah is said by me as is said by all that I personally know. It is so because the reference in the Qur'an 15:87 is reference to the 7 verses of Al-Fatiha that are repeated quite often.

If you go to a mosque of mainstream Muslims and observe any of the morning, evening or the night prayer, there is a short gap between the initial Allahu Akbar recited by the imam to begin the prayer and before he begins to recite Al-Fatiha from 1:2. Bissmillah (1:1) is said silently by all (including the imam) during that gap just before the recitation from 1:2 begins.
What I have read is there are two camps, i.e. two groups with different views and practices regarding the 'Bismilah.' Not sure if they are the Ahamadis.
To arrive at the 7 verses to meet requirement of 15:87, the usual long verse 1.7 is split into two verses.

One of the argument [if I am not mistaken] is are the following;
1. Bismillah is not recited in the other 112 verses.
2. The elements of the Bismillah are already in 1:3 [the conventional Al fatiha]

I am not sure about the silence before the Al-Fatiha before the prayer since I have not been in a mosque during prayer times.
However I read there is a silence phase for the iman or other person to say the Al-Fatiha silently if the iman is not the reciter? [to be confirm].
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Old 07-25-2016, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
This is a question on the recitation of 1:1

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

The above script is translated as
Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi

When recited in sound, the not pronounced letter are eliminated it is
Bismillah ir rahman ir raheem

In one of the youtube video it is written as
Bismillah hir rahma nir raheem

I believe "hir" is okay because "h" is voiceless.

However to split "Rahman ir" into 'Rahma nir" seem odd.
Is such a split acceptable since the Quran is expected to be recited perfectly as revealed.
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Old 07-25-2016, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What I have read is there are two camps, i.e. two groups with different views and practices regarding the 'Bismilah.' Not sure if they are the Ahamadis.
To arrive at the 7 verses to meet requirement of 15:87, the usual long verse 1.7 is split into two verses.

One of the argument [if I am not mistaken] is are the following;
1. Bismillah is not recited in the other 112 verses.
2. The elements of the Bismillah are already in 1:3 [the conventional Al fatiha]

I am not sure about the silence before the Al-Fatiha before the prayer since I have not been in a mosque during prayer times.
However I read there is a silence phase for the iman or other person to say the Al-Fatiha silently if the iman is not the reciter? [to be confirm].
This may help a little. Each of the 5 Daily prayers differ slightly:

Here are links as to how to say each of the 5 salat

FAJR

How to perform salat al Fajr. Two rakats sunnah

How to perform salat al Maghrib. Three rakats fard

ZUHR (Also spelled as Duhr) The name begins with the letter Dzal which has a sound between the English letters D and Z. Sounds a little like either but not quite the same as either.

How to perform salat al Zuhr. Four rakats sunnah

How to perform salat al Zuhr. Four rakats fard

How to perform salat al Zuhr. Two rakats final sunnah

ASR

How to perform salat al Asr. Four rakats sunnah

How to perform salat al Asr. Four rakats fard


MAGHREB

How to perform salat al Maghrib. Two rakats sunnah

How to perform salat al Maghrib. Three rakats fard


ISHA

How to perform salat al Isha. Four rakats sunnah

How to perform salat al Isha. Four rakats fard

How to perform salat al Isha. Two rakats final sunnah


It should be noted some Rakkats are said silently. We do not say them audibly, not even the Imam says them out loud.





Name of Salat Number of Rakats Method of reading

Fajr 2 Said loud
Zuhr 4 Said silent
Asr 4 Said silent
Maghrib 3 First 2 loud, last rakat silent
Isha 4 First 2 loud, last 2 silent

Beginning of the Hour: Prayer Times & Rakats
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Old 07-25-2016, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is a question on the recitation of 1:1

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

The above script is translated as
Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi

When recited in sound, the not pronounced letter are eliminated it is
Bismillah ir rahman ir raheem

In one of the youtube video it is written as
Bismillah hir rahma nir raheem

I believe "hir" is okay because "h" is voiceless.

However to split "Rahman ir" into 'Rahma nir" seem odd.
Is such a split acceptable since the Quran is expected to be recited perfectly as revealed.
It is not uncommon for translations and transliterations to contain errors.
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Old 07-25-2016, 11:13 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It is not uncommon for translations and transliterations to contain errors.
Are you saying,


Bismillah ir rahman ir Raheem
is the correct recitation, while


"Bismillah hir rahma nir Raheem"
is wrongly written, i.e. the "n" is placed wrongly?
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Old 07-26-2016, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Are you saying,


Bismillah ir rahman ir Raheem
is the correct recitation, while


"Bismillah hir rahma nir Raheem"
is wrongly written, i.e. the "n" is placed wrongly?

Possibly, but I assume the person who did the transliteration is under the assumption that is the best way to achieve an approximation of the proper Tajweed pronunciation. I differ with that opinion.
the Qur'an written in the Tajweed the letter nun/n ( [SIZE=6]نِ[/SIZE] ) is connected to rahman

[SIZE=6]بِسْمِ اللّهِ الرَّحْمـَنِ الرَّحِيمِ[/SIZE][SIZE=1] ([/SIZE]
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Old 07-26-2016, 01:00 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is a question on the recitation of 1:1

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

The above script is translated as
Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi

When recited in sound, the not pronounced letter are eliminated it is
Bismillah ir rahman ir raheem

In one of the youtube video it is written as
Bismillah hir rahma nir raheem

I believe "hir" is okay because "h" is voiceless.

However to split "Rahman ir" into 'Rahma nir" seem odd.
Is such a split acceptable since the Quran is expected to be recited perfectly as revealed.
There are marks on most letters that help a non-Arabic speaker to learn how to recite 1:1. These marks did not exist before Uthman copy.

Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi is letter by letter transliteration from Arabic letters to English letters. It is not recited like that but Biss-milla-hirahmaa-nirraheem. al before lah, al before rahmaan and al before raheem is not noticeable in recitation just as r in English word "morning" is not really noticeable when saying "morning".

The proper way to recite the whole is by breaking it into 5 parts like a word is broken into syllables:

Biss-
mi (Al)la-
hi (al)rrahmaa-
ni (al)rraa
h
eem

Then recite it by connecting the letters in bold, and h recited as almost kh:

Biss
mi-la
hi-rrahma
ni-rra
h
eem

Now hear the recitation of 1:1 from any video and you will find it extremely close, if not perfect, to what I have described above.
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Old 07-26-2016, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Possibly, but I assume the person who did the transliteration is under the assumption that is the best way to achieve an approximation of the proper Tajweed pronunciation. I differ with that opinion.
the Qur'an written in the Tajweed the letter nun/n ( [SIZE=6]نِ[/SIZE] ) is connected to rahman

[SIZE=6]بِسْمِ اللّهِ الرَّحْمـَنِ الرَّحِيمِ[/SIZE][SIZE=1] ([/SIZE]
I agree with your views in general but note Khalif's views.
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