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Old 08-01-2016, 02:44 AM
 
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Middle way is the straight path or else you will go astray if you go towards extremes.
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Old 08-01-2016, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Middle way is the straight path or else you will go astray if you go towards extremes.
Note the Quran do not qualify its Straight Path with the middle way. This is why there is no flexibility and dynamism allowed in Islam.

The Principles of the Middle Way is one can extend to any of the extreme any time as and when necessary to do so due to changes in conditions but one must always get back to the middle and move on progressively.

Example:
Suppose one is to travel from the North Pole to the South Pole.

The Straight Path, e.g. as in Islam means the traveler is given a compass and told to follow the needle of the compass pointing South regardless. In this approach one in theory will definitely reach the South Pole faster time and only if there are no obstacles and hindrances along the way.
But reality is full of obstacles and hindrances and thus with the Straight Path, immutable as in Islam, one can be stuck at any point and unable to progress. The resulting reality is this;





On the other hand with the Middle Path approach, one is given a GPS, compass and map to show how one travel from the North Pole to the South Pole. In this case, one will be aware of at least known conditions, obstacles to deal with.
If any unknown or unanticipated obstacles exist, then the traveler can take alternative diversions and routes but get back to the planned path [i.e. Southward].
The Middle Path may not be fast, but it is a flexible, surer and effective Path to get to the destination.
Most of the Eastern religions and others practiced the Middle-Way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Way
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Old 08-02-2016, 05:10 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the Quran do not qualify its Straight Path with the middle way. This is why there is no flexibility and dynamism allowed in Islam.

The Principles of the Middle Way is one can extend to any of the extreme any time as and when necessary to do so due to changes in conditions but one must always get back to the middle and move on progressively.
Therefore, the Middle Path is conditional. The same is in Islam; 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' unless there is change in conditions. Then get back to 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. Yes?

Quote:
Example:
Suppose one is to travel from the North Pole to the South Pole.

The Straight Path, e.g. as in Islam means the traveler is given a compass and told to follow the needle of the compass pointing South regardless.
Actually "regardless" is not the straight path to follow in Islam. 'Thou Shalt Not Kill Regardless" would not be the straight path in all conditions in Islam.

Quote:
In this approach one in theory will definitely reach the South Pole faster time and only if there are no obstacles and hindrances along the way.
Assuming that one hasn't lost his compass. But what if one HAS lost his compass? How would you get back to the straight path? Islam allows for such eventuality.

Quote:
But reality is full of obstacles and hindrances and thus with the Straight Path, immutable as in Islam, one can be stuck at any point and unable to progress. The resulting reality is this;
No.

That is not the result of being stuck at any point and unable to progress but the result of losing the compass and getting lost. I still haven't lost my compass. Thank God for that!

Quote:
On the other hand with the Middle Path approach, one is given a GPS, compass and map to show how one travel from the North Pole to the South Pole. In this case, one will be aware of at least known conditions, obstacles to deal with.
Yes, those "conditions" and "obstacles" are also identified in Islam and how to deal with them. Yet you moan about it when it comes to Islam.

Quote:
If any unknown or unanticipated obstacles exist, then the traveler can take alternative diversions and routes but get back to the planned path [i.e. Southward].
The same way, getting back to the planned path, after you have lost your compass, is termed "tauba" in Islam.

Quote:
The Middle Path may not be fast, but it is a flexible, surer and effective Path to get to the destination.
Exactly the point of getting back on to the straight path after "tauba".

Please not that I have already dealt with the "conditions" and "obstacles" in the straight path. Islam goes further than that. It deals with losing the compass too.

Quote:
Most of the Eastern religions and others practiced the Middle-Way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Way
You failed to understand the Middle Path between "kill all non-Muslims regardless" and "Never kill anyone" or 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. Islam takes the Middle Path and allows for "conditions" and "obstacles".
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Old 08-02-2016, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Therefore, the Middle Path is conditional. The same is in Islam; 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' unless there is change in conditions. Then get back to 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. Yes?
No!

The Middle Path itself is not conditional at all.
However the Middle Path contains absolute maxims and conditional rules to be applied where applicable.
For the ultimate middle Middle Path, the 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' must be an absolute moral maxim.

The difference with Islam is;
The Straight Path is not conditional, i.e. Perfected and immutable.
But the 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' the most critical moral maxim is not absolute but conditional and open-ended.
As consequences this, the evil elements in the Quran has influenced SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.

There are application of the middle-way within the Quran where necessary but these are not related to the critical issues.
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Old 08-02-2016, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Actually "regardless" is not the straight path to follow in Islam. 'Thou Shalt Not Kill Regardless" would not be the straight path in all conditions in Islam.
You failed to understand what is an effective system of Morality.
The absolute moral maxim is imperative for an effective moral system, but it acts as an overriding control and ceiling limit. An absolute moral maxim means it must be absolute regardless of any conditions.
However with the absolute moral maxim place in case to deal with any ultimate situations, there are provisions for conditional situations, e.g. a person can kill if in a war or a legally appointed executioner.

Example:
In the case of antibiotics [previously not now] there is one ultimate strongest antibiotic that will kill all bacteria. In practice there is a big range of antibiotic that is applicable for different situations from minor to serious case of infections.
With an absolute kill all antibiotic, doctors are confident they can cure all bacterial infections because they have the ultimate strongest antibiotic on hand.
In practice, doctors do not use the ultimate strongest antibiotics but use the relevant strength of antibiotics in relation to the seriousness of the bacterial infection. e.g. low strength antibiotics for sore throats and minor infections.
However if doctors cannot cure an infection they will keep increasing and resorting to stronger antibiotics and they are very confident all infections regardless will be cure in time because they have on their hand the ultimate antibiotics on hand to deal with whatever bacterial infections,

The above example is similar with morality and establishing a MUST HAVE the ultimate, i.e. an absolute moral maxim to deal with any situation regardless but not applied until the situation warrant it.

As with the current situations at present, due to abuse and resistant, there is no more ultimate strongest antibiotics to cure the strongest bacteria, i.e. the reality superbugs. Therefore at present, if someone is infected with the super-bacterial at present there is no guarantee they will be cure by the last ultimate strongest antibiotics.

This is the same with the Quran which do not has an absolute moral maxim which cannot ensure 100% certain its morality can deal with the worst possible scenarios in war or in peace.
It is because there is no absolute moral maxim, like no strongest antibiotic, to deal with the worst cases of evils from whatever the situations. This is why there is the reality of the real terrible evils and violence by SOME evil prone Muslims. [29,944]



Quote:
Assuming that one hasn't lost his compass. But what if one HAS lost his compass? How would you get back to the straight path? Islam allows for such eventuality.
This example do not provide for one losing one's compass. The compass is the holy book of the religion. A Muslim is no more a Muslim without reference to the Quran [the compass].
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Old 08-02-2016, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
Note: I am responding in a few posts to avoid my work being lost as my compute stops regularly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No.

That is not the result of being stuck at any point and unable to progress but the result of losing the compass and getting lost. I still haven't lost my compass. Thank God for that!
Note my previous point, your compass example is not applicable.

Quote:
Yes, those "conditions" and "obstacles" are also identified in Islam and how to deal with them. Yet you moan about it when it comes to Islam.
But there is no absolute moral maxim on 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' to close whatever possible holes in practice and leaving Allah to decide on the final outcome.

Quote:
The same way, getting back to the planned path, after you have lost your compass, is termed "tauba" in Islam.
Exactly the point of getting back on to the straight path after "tauba".
Point is getting back to whatever the straight path for the evil prone Muslims are their 'DUCK' views which results in terrible evils and violence.

Quote:
You failed to understand the Middle Path between "kill all non-Muslims regardless" and "Never kill anyone" or 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. Islam takes the Middle Path and allows for "conditions" and "obstacles".
Yes, Muslims allows for "conditions" and "obstacles" but they are open-ended when it comes to the most serious of all, i.e. 'killling' where there is no ultimate control from an established absolute moral maxim.

Allah provide for many situations in terms of 'middle Paths' e.g. 'do it to the best of your ability, potential, wealth, etc.' but one cannot compromise with a potential evil like 'killing'.

All the mainstream religions has an absolute moral maxim [precept] for 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' and the result is no killings of non-believers can be done as inspired by their holy texts and verses.
Islam [in part] is the exception and the terrible consequences of this omission is so glaring, i.e. the following amongst others;

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