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Old 07-26-2016, 01:37 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Re 1:4
مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
Maliki yawmi alddeeni
(The) Master (of the) Day (of the) Judgment.

Most of the English Translations translate "alddeeni" as Judgement, Repayment, Requital, Retribution, Doom, Recompense, Accountability, Decision, Resurrection

Except
Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)
Sole Judge of the Day of Religion.

Personally, I believe "alddeeni" should be translated as "religion" as it is translated in 30++ other verses within the Quran.

As far as "judgment" is concern the proper word should be l-ḥuk'mu الْحُكْمُ ح ك م .

What are your views, should 'alddeeni' in 1:4, should it be translated as 'religion' or Judgments and its other related words as listed above?
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Old 07-26-2016, 02:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Re 1:4
مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
Maliki yawmi alddeeni
(The) Master (of the) Day (of the) Judgment.

Most of the English Translations translate "alddeeni" as Judgement, Repayment, Requital, Retribution, Doom, Recompense, Accountability, Decision, Resurrection

Except
Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)
Sole Judge of the Day of Religion.

Personally, I believe "alddeeni" should be translated as "religion" as it is translated in 30++ other verses within the Quran.

As far as "judgment" is concern the proper word should be l-ḥuk'mu الْحُكْمُ ح ك م .

What are your views, should 'alddeeni' in 1:4, should it be translated as 'religion' or Judgments and its other related words as listed above?
Al Deen means The Deen (not any way or any deen).

In 1:4, it is "King/Judge of the Day of Recompense". Deen has different meanings. All linked to the Way one lives the life on earth and is judged accordingly (thus Day of Recompense).
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Old 07-26-2016, 11:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Al Deen means The Deen (not any way or any deen).

In 1:4, it is "King/Judge of the Day of Recompense". Deen has different meanings. All linked to the Way one lives the life on earth and is judged accordingly (thus Day of Recompense).
When Al Deen means The Deen, then it should not be translated as 'judgment'.
Rather the translation should be

مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
..........Maliki.............yawmi................ .alddeeni
(The) Master(of the) Day(of Judgment) of Islam.

It is very obvious from the overall context of the Quran, Day is Judgment Day. The other term is the Hour, etc.
Note judgment should be inside a parenthesis [].

In the above case 'alddeeni' should be Islam, or Religion of Islam where the central essence is the Deen.

The fact that 1:4 is included in the most critical verse of the Quran inferred that the judgment day is the most critical element of the religion of Islam.

The most critical element of the Judgment Day is salvation to eternal life in Paradise.

Therefore the ultimate most desperate purpose for a person to be a Muslim of Islam is salvation to eternal life in Paradise.

For many the desperation for salvation involve very heavy and sensitive dangerous instincts and emotions.
For many [not all] they are as if thrown into a situation and like a drowning person in the middle of a deep ocean who will be desperate to grab anything [even a twig] to save themselves.

In such a desperate psychological situation, the anger [against Jews] and astray [against Christians] element will create great animosity within SOME [not] Muslims. To these SOME Muslims they will think who the hell are these bast_rds that Allah is angry with or are astray. The verses in the Quran will inform that the anger is against Jews and the Christians are astray [thus can mislead Muslims as well].

While the majority of good Muslims will not be bothered by the evil elements in 1:7, SOME evil prone will be triggered with animosity towards Jews and Christians. This is the indirect effect that resulted in the killing of the 84 years old priest in France and Jews elsewhere.
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Old 07-27-2016, 03:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
When Al Deen means The Deen, then it should not be translated as 'judgment'.
Rather the translation should be

مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
..........Maliki.............yawmi................ .alddeeni
(The) Master(of the) Day(of Judgment) of Islam.

It is very obvious from the overall context of the Quran, Day is Judgment Day. The other term is the Hour, etc.
Note judgment should be inside a parenthesis [].
Day of Islam will be "yawmi-al-islam". "yawm-aldeen" means "Day of Recompense" on which one will be recompensed for his/her actions in this world.

[38:78] And indeed, upon you is the curse until the Day of Recompense.

[26:82] And who I aspire that He will forgive me my sin on the Day of Recompense.

[51:12] They ask, "When is the Day of Recompense?
[51.13]
(It is) the day on which they shall be tried at the fire.

[82.1] When the heaven becomes cleft asunder,
[82.2] And when the stars become dispersed,
[82.3] And when the seas are made to flow forth,
[82.4] And when the graves are laid open,
[82.5] Every soul shall know what it has sent before and held back.
[82.6] O mankind ! What has beguiled you from your Lord, the Gracious one,
[82.7] Who created you, then made you complete, then made you symmetrical?
[82.8] Into whatever form He pleased He constituted you.
[82.9] Nay! But you deny the Recompense,
[82.10] And most surely there are keepers over you
[82.11] Honorable recorders,
[82.12] They know what you do.
[82.13] Most surely the righteous are in bliss,
[82.14] And most surely the wicked are in burning fire,
[82.15] They shall enter it on the day of Recompense.
[82.16] And they shall by no means be absent from it.
[82.17] And what will make you realize what the day of Recompense is?
[82.18-19] Again, what will make you realize what the day of Recompense Is? The day on which no soul shall control anything for
(another) soul; and the command on that day shall be entirely Allah's.


Quote:
In the above case 'alddeeni' should be Islam, or Religion of Islam where the central essence is the Deen.
Deen is not the central essence of Islam but submission (to Allah) is the central essence of Islam.

Quote:
The fact that 1:4 is included in the most critical verse of the Quran inferred that the judgment day is the most critical element of the religion of Islam.
Verse or the Surah?

Quote:
The most critical element of the Judgment Day is salvation to eternal life in Paradise.
The most critical element of the Day of Recompense is, As You Sow So Shall You Reap.

Quote:
Therefore the ultimate most desperate purpose for a person to be a Muslim of Islam is salvation to eternal life in Paradise.
Eternal life in Paradise is not "salvation" but saving one's Self from life in Hell.

Quote:
For many the desperation for salvation involve very heavy and sensitive dangerous instincts and emotions.
For many [not all] they are as if thrown into a situation and like a drowning person in the middle of a deep ocean who will be desperate to grab anything [even a twig] to save themselves.
A twig is not going to save anyone but righteous deeds. It's time to read the Qur'an another 50+ times and understand it this time.

Quote:
In such a desperate psychological situation, the anger [against Jews] and astray [against Christians] element will create great animosity within SOME [not] Muslims. To these SOME Muslims they will think who the hell are these bast_rds that Allah is angry with or are astray. The verses in the Quran will inform that the anger is against Jews and the Christians are astray [thus can mislead Muslims as well].
Irrelevant for salvation through Islam!

Three elements are mentioned in 1:7; not two.

Jews and Christians are not mentioned in there. 1:6 and 1:7 are entirely about the straight path, and praying to keep us on the straight path. Anger is not straight path.

Quote:
While the majority of good Muslims will not be bothered by the evil elements in 1:7, SOME evil prone will be triggered with animosity towards Jews and Christians.
There is nothing in 1:7 about the Jews or the Christians. You are imagining about the non-existing "evil elements" in 1:7 just as you do so for the whole Qur'an.

Quote:
This is the indirect effect that resulted in the killing of the 84 years old priest in France and Jews elsewhere.
And killings of 143 Muslim children in Peshawar, Pakistan?

When I pray,

[1.6] Keep us on the straight path.
[1.7] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.


I am praying for the straight path, the path of those Jews who were bestowed favors from Allah and not of those so-called Muslims who are being punished by Allah because they have gone astray.

You look at half the picture and, in desperation to find a twig for your project, make mistake in assuming what the picture is about whereas I look at the bigger picture and do not make mistake as the picture becomes quite clear.
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Old 07-27-2016, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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The problem arises as to if an interpretation or translation is the most accurate. I can recall one far east nation I was once in, (can't recall if it was Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia or Singapore) the word for "Speed Bump" translated directly into English as "Sleeping Policeman" I remember from the book by Lin Yu-Tang (The pleasures of a Nonconformist) the Chinese word for nonconformist translates into English as "unbridled horse"

Traditionally and Historically Muslims have referred to "Judgement Day" as "Day of the Religion" yawm-aldeen

Translations while accurate do not always carry the connotation, Interpretation while seldom being accurate translations are often more reliable in carrying the connotation.

One reason I prefer Assad over Pickthal and Ali, He gives an interpretation instead of the Translation.

An analofy, when I hear the words "Fourth of July" I am not thinking of the calendar date my thoughts are "Independence Day" the interpretation of what July 4 means.
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Old 07-27-2016, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The problem arises as to if an interpretation or translation is the most accurate. I can recall one far east nation I was once in, (can't recall if it was Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia or Singapore) the word for "Speed Bump" translated directly into English as "Sleeping Policeman" I remember from the book by Lin Yu-Tang (The pleasures of a Nonconformist) the Chinese word for nonconformist translates into English as "unbridled horse"

Traditionally and Historically Muslims have referred to "Judgement Day" as "Day of the Religion" yawm-aldeen

Translations while accurate do not always carry the connotation, Interpretation while seldom being accurate translations are often more reliable in carrying the connotation.

One reason I prefer Assad over Pickthal and Ali, He gives an interpretation instead of the Translation.

An analofy, when I hear the words "Fourth of July" I am not thinking of the calendar date my thoughts are "Independence Day" the interpretation of what July 4 means.
The effective strategy is to rely on one main constant reference so one thoughts do not fly all over.
I rely on Pickthall as the main reference because I think his is older, credible and not exposed to any political influence.
However I do not take Pickthall as the ultimate decider on the meanings of the Quran. As I have posted many times with evidence, I rely on more that 45 other English translations, tafsir, commentaries, and many other relevant references from different sources.

As I have posted, the effective translation should have been,

"(The) Master(of the) Day(of Judgment) of Islam."

The following translations from almost all translator as
"(The) Master(of the) Day of Judgment"
is because they have taken a short cut because 'Day' is strongly implied as 'Day of Judgment' in the overall context of the Quran.

However the more truer and effective translation for 1:4 should have been
"(The) Master(of the) Day(of Judgment) of Islam."
or
"(The) Master(of the) Day(of Judgment) of the Religion of Islam."
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Old 07-27-2016, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Day of Islam will be "yawmi-al-islam". "yawm-aldeen" means "Day of Recompense" on which one will be recompensed for his/her actions in this world.

[38:78] And indeed, upon you is the curse until the Day of Recompense.

[26:82] And who I aspire that He will forgive me my sin on the Day of Recompense.

[51:12] They ask, "When is the Day of Recompense?”
[51.13]
(It is) the day on which they shall be tried at the fire.

[82.1] When the heaven becomes cleft asunder,
[82.2] And when the stars become dispersed,
[82.3] And when the seas are made to flow forth,
[82.4] And when the graves are laid open,
[82.5] Every soul shall know what it has sent before and held back.
[82.6] O mankind ! What has beguiled you from your Lord, the Gracious one,
[82.7] Who created you, then made you complete, then made you symmetrical?
[82.8] Into whatever form He pleased He constituted you.
[82.9] Nay! But you deny the Recompense,
[82.10] And most surely there are keepers over you
[82.11] Honorable recorders,
[82.12] They know what you do.
[82.13] Most surely the righteous are in bliss,
[82.14] And most surely the wicked are in burning fire,
[82.15] They shall enter it on the day of Recompense.
[82.16] And they shall by no means be absent from it.
[82.17] And what will make you realize what the day of Recompense is?
[82.18-19] Again, what will make you realize what the day of Recompense Is? The day on which no soul shall control anything for
(another) soul; and the command on that day shall be entirely Allah's.
I have already surveyed the used of the term 'aldeeni' in the Quran.
It is true there are many other verses that translate 'aldeeni' as Day of Recompense or similar but basically they can be all belong to the group under 'Day of Judgment.' The majority of the translation of 'aldeeni' in the Quran is 'religion.'

To be correct literally, 51:12 should be translated as

They ask, "When (is the) Day (of Judgment) of Islam?"
or
They ask, "When (is the) Day (of Judgment) of the Religion of Islam?"

It is because the above is so obvious in English that translators has used a short-cut and ignore the "aldeeni as religion." So they end up with;

"They ask: When is the Day of Judgment?"

Btw, I am overly pedantic over this issue because the intention of the message of 1:4 is maintained. I am just bringing it up as an issue what the more clearer translation should be.


Quote:
Deen is not the central essence of Islam but submission (to Allah) is the central essence of Islam.
Note I started a thread on 'What is Deen' and obviously you are ignorant of what is deen [generic] within the spirituality of mankind [not just Islam].
The Generic Deen of Spirituality/religiosity of humanity is the same as any other generic system within ALL human beings. For example the generic digestive systems of ALL human beings [physical anatomy and processes wise] are fundamentally the same, there is no such special thing as an Islamic/Quranic digestive system within the body of Muslims.
It is the same for the fundamental generic Deen of Spirituality [Deen in Islam, Dharma and other names in other religions] which is driven by the same neural [nerves and neuron] within the human body. The rituals and doctrines may differ in forms but the essence of the "Deen" is the same within all Spirituality and mankind.

Quote:
Verse or the Surah?
Correction I meant
Quote:
The fact that 1:4 is included in the most critical Surah [not verse] of the Quran inferred that the judgment day is the most critical element of the religion of Islam.
Quote:
The most critical element of the Day of Recompense is, As You Sow So Shall You Reap.
I was referring to the ultimate purpose, results and expectation on the Day of Judgment not the actions on Earth.
What is the critical on the Day of Judgment is obvious the final decision make by Allah as to whether a Muslim go to Paradise or Hell based on 'reap what you sow on Earth'.
This is why SOME evil prone Muslims [f.. sick cowards] will go to the extreme of premediated and deliberate killing of a weakly 84 years old priest and innocent people, women, children and babies] to ensure they are guaranteed with an expeditious passage to Paradise as promised by Allah in the Quran.
Btw only Allah can judge the final decision, not YOU, and any other human being.

Quote:
Eternal life in Paradise is not "salvation" but saving one's Self from life in Hell.
You are playing with words here.
Unless you are the exception, ALL [if not almost] Muslims will think of eternal life [immortality] in Paradise first and then avoid hell.

Quote:
A twig is not going to save anyone but righteous deeds. It's time to read the Qur'an another 50+ times and understand it this time.
Hey, don't you know what is a metaphor?

Quote:
Irrelevant for salvation through Islam!

Three elements are mentioned in 1:7; not two.

Jews and Christians are not mentioned in there. 1:6 and 1:7 are entirely about the straight path, and praying to keep us on the straight path. Anger is not straight path.
As I had implied, 1:7 is not a direct command to kill Jews and Christians but indirect with combinations of the other related evil laden verses.
1:7 is a subtle evil laden element but when repeated 17 times and day for years and years, that is a very effective brainwashing process on the evil prone Muslims who are unfortunately born with active evil tendencies. This is the subtle evil laden verses that most Muslims, non-Muslims apologists and other non-Muslims are not aware of.

Quote:
There is nothing in 1:7 about the Jews or the Christians. You are imagining about the non-existing "evil elements" in 1:7 just as you do so for the whole Qur'an.
Again you are ignorant and blinded because as a believer you MUST be naturally bias and blind to any thing that is negative to your beliefs.

Note 1:6 and 1:7 again;
Show us the straight path,
The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
1:7 invoke the primal 'us versus them' and note the word "not" and 'those' in the two phrase which trigger anyone to think, who are 'those' who make Allah that angry as to be highlighted in such a critical chapter of the Quran.
The fact that 'not' & 'those' are mentioned infer there must be something of a very serious warning the believer must take note especially when it is from an all powerful God who one depend on for mercy to immortality.
It is the "not" that trigger serious warnings and a threat in this case.

It is very obvious when one read the Quran many times [I presume Al Badhadi and many expert Islamic Scholars would have] would have been perceptive to understand those who angered Allah were the Jews and those who were astray were the Christians. Thus it is the evil prone expert Muslims scholars who are so worked up with anger with non-Muslims who influenced the lay Muslims to commit evils and terrible evils. Note the article on the how the Bangladeshi was brainwashed to be a jihadi.

Since mentioned in this Chapter 1, i.e. mother of the Quran, both Christians and Jews highlighted as evil are thus a serious threat to Islam and Muslims, thus deserved special attention for fighting and killing them. The Quran implied Jews cannot be trusted because they corrupted the text that prophesized Muhammad and the Christians were astray and could mislead [via proselytizing] the Muslims from their straight path.

It is based on the above factors from the Quran and ethos of Islam [PARTLY not wholly] that SOME evil prone Muslims are influenced and inspired to commit terrible evils and violence on even innocent Jews and Christians because they are marked as evil and a threat to Islam and Muslims.

Last edited by Continuum; 07-27-2016 at 10:30 PM..
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Old 07-27-2016, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
This is the indirect effect that resulted in the killing of the 84 years old priest in France and Jews elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
And killings of 143 Muslim children in Peshawar, Pakistan?
1:7 refers to Jews and Christians but all over the Quran there are reference to non-Muslims as a threat and also other Muslims who are hypocrites who worked against Islam [from the perspective of the jihadists] by themselves or with infidels.
The 143 Muslims children in Peshawar were children of military staff of a government who worked with infidels to kill Muslims [in Afghanistan and elsewhere] so they claimed.

Quote:
When I pray,

[1.6] Keep us on the straight path.
[1.7] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.


I am praying for the straight path, the path of those Jews who were bestowed favors from Allah and not of those so-called Muslims who are being punished by Allah because they have gone astray.

You look at half the picture and, in desperation to find a twig for your project, make mistake in assuming what the picture is about whereas I look at the bigger picture and do not make mistake as the picture becomes quite clear.
Obvious you being the moderate Muslim will be blind on the potential evil elements and will focus on the straight path.

You are the one who is looking at half the picture in desperation because you happened to be a good Muslim and thus is blind to the other elements.

On the other hand, I being not emotional and psychological attached to the verses can see the verses objectively in all its elements and perspectives.
Note my detail explanation above.
In addition I provided evidence of my hypothesis, i.e. [28,895]

[img]http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/TROP.jpg[img]
The latest being the very weak harmless 84 years old CHRISTIAN priests because he fit the description as threat [in 1:7 and elsewhere] to Islam in the Quran, in addition to the evil call of casting terror on non-Muslims, etc.
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Old 07-28-2016, 05:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
1:7 refers to Jews and Christians but all over the Quran there are reference to non-Muslims as a threat and also other Muslims who are hypocrites who worked against Islam [from the perspective of the jihadists] by themselves or with infidels.
The 143 Muslims children in Peshawar were children of military staff of a government who worked with infidels to kill Muslims [in Afghanistan and elsewhere] so they claimed.

Obvious you being the moderate Muslim will be blind on the potential evil elements and will focus on the straight path.

You are the one who is looking at half the picture in desperation because you happened to be a good Muslim and thus is blind to the other elements.

On the other hand, I being not emotional and psychological attached to the verses can see the verses objectively in all its elements and perspectives.
Note my detail explanation above.
In addition I provided evidence of my hypothesis, i.e. [28,895]

[img]http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/TROP.jpg[img]
The latest being the very weak harmless 84 years old CHRISTIAN priests because he fit the description as threat [in 1:7 and elsewhere] to Islam in the Quran, in addition to the evil call of casting terror on non-Muslims, etc.
If you look at the profiles of the 2 murderers of the French priest you might notice they had a past criminal history, were very prone to violence. They sought out ISIS because they were violent people, they did not become violent because they accepted Islam. They accepted Islam because they believed ISIS represented Islam. They are quite typical of the type ISIS targets as recruits.

New details emerge about teen killer of French priest - CBS News
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Old 07-28-2016, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If you look at the profiles of the 2 murderers of the French priest you might notice they had a past criminal history, were very prone to violence. They sought out ISIS because they were violent people, they did not become violent because they accepted Islam. They accepted Islam because they believed ISIS represented Islam. They are quite typical of the type ISIS targets as recruits.

New details emerge about teen killer of French priest - CBS News
That is possible but that is only in exceptional cases, i.e. using religion as an excuse to satisfy their lust for killing.
Show me exact evidence to support your point.
Even then it is also the fault of the religion for providing this excuse. No other main religion give this excuse for their believers to kill in the name of their religion.

But, the general case is this:
1. The impulse for salvation is inherent in all human beings.
2. These Muslims have been brainwashed with the ideology of salvation plus exposure to the evil laden elements since young in their subconscious mind.
3. In the younger life prior to being a jihadist, they were not serious Muslims, i.e. committing crimes and committing other sins.
4. Then they are preached [or exposed in other ways] where their impulse for salvation is triggered very strongly.
5. But they are faced with a dilemma of past sins against their hopes of salvation.
6. The fact is the Quran provide avenues for these very guilty Muslims to gain forgiveness via repentance which is to comply with the greatest expectations of Allah, i.e. martyrdom.
7. So these very guilty jihadists are driven to kill non-Muslims to gain favor from Allah.
If you read of many cases, they all follow the above pattern.
Many of these jihadists were drinking, clubbing, womanizing, committing various crimes and sins and suddenly they appear in the News as jihadist to the shock of their parents, relatives, friends etc.
It is the quick path to repentance that Islam provide these very guilty to gain their passage to Paradise.

Note this video where the Paris jihadists were dancing and partying months before the attack.
http://www.inquisitr.com/2942264/wat...error-attacks/

also note this thread
The Psychological Factors of Radicalization
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