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Old 07-27-2016, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Khalif;

Here is an experience to understand your own human nature;
[on the assumption you have not done this before]

What do you see within the image below?
If you cannot see the full truth, I will tell you later.

Image 1


Image 2


Image 3


Image 4


Image 5
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Old 07-27-2016, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are off topic on this. The above refer to hardcore disbelievers for various reasons.

I was referring to people who are already Muslims, i.e. those who have submitted and affirmed the Shahada directly or impliedly.
Based on the Principles of Normal Distribution, [Bell Curve] within the 1.5 billion Muslims there will be a range [low to high] of personalities, psychology, and all physical and mental abilities.
It is obvious there will be a percentage % of Muslims who are idiots and cannot understand the whole message of the Quran no matter what steps are taken to educate them on it.

We have gone through this many times in your ignorance of human nature and how the brain works. Human abilities [physical or mental] critically depend on connections of the nerves [neuron]. Once the nerves are damaged they are done for good, note the physical and mentally handicaps and their varying degrees. The borderline cases may have a chance of cure but not the problematic ones.

"Understanding" any thing involved a complicated high level mental faculty with billions and billions of connections. If 'understanding' is so easy to train, then we will have all students in schools scoring distinctions in very subject the take. But it will remain a fact for a long time, in term of 'understanding' there will be the hardcore who cannot understand clearly because of the nature of their brain/mind [damage, bad connections] and there will be the good ones.
This fact of human nature is applicable to the understanding of religious texts, the Quran in this case.

Therefore your assumption that all can understand easily, example the Quran, is too simplistic and based on ignorance of reality and human nature.
That is the problem when one discussed with people who are hell bent to be in an ignorant state of human nature because they are restraint by their religious beliefs.


Yes, in theory but you are ignoring practical reality.
That is my point.
Some criminal may and many have done that but not all because your their physical state of the nerves connection in their brain. I believe the most is 10% of borderline cases can understand the Quran and turn into a new leaf and be good. The reality is many Muslims prisoners became worse after being exposed to evil preachers in prison.

The point is, if Allah is a really wise God and understood human nature fully, then Allah would not have included the evil laden elements in the Quran with an open-ended passport that influenced, especially the hardcore evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.
Evidence? note this [28,895] it was 28,884 yesterday
which is merely one type of evil committed by evil prone Muslims.



Why the above is because the Quran was authored by human[s] not a wise God [if exist].

If they listened, ponder and reflect, the Muslims will avoid the burning fire in Hell, but that is only within the Muslim-box and not the reality-box.
While the evil prone Muslims [potential pool of 20%] selfishly avoided the Hell within the Muslim-box, the created real hell on Earth for humanity. This is because the listened and ponder to understand the evil laden verses in the Quran and comply with them as a duty of being a 'good' Muslim to get favorable rewards in Paradise as promised by Allah in the Quran.

Again you are ignorant of human nature.
Look at this picture below,



So what did you see on the first impression of it?
It is likely you will see either the duck or the rabbit.
If you see the rabbit, you may not see the duck at all.
If no one tell you there is a 'duck' and 'rabbit' in that image, you will forever be ignorant till eternity of the other picture.

Why you or otherwise see only one picture on first impression is because of one's psychological state accumulated since birth or before birth.

It is the same with the evil prone Muslims being sensitive or inclined to the evil laden elements in the Quran. It is not based on the reading of one verse only but the overall context of the paragraph, chapter, the whole Quran, ethos of Islam and the person total psychology.

Therefore your individual verses from the Quran in blue above do not work unless you deal with the overall context of the Quran [all the evil laden verses together in synch], the overall ethos of Islam and the evil prone psychological state of the evil prone Muslims collectively [not individually].

Btw, those who see either the Duck or Rabbit do not shred the Quran into verses but ignorantly perceive only one image.
One need a higher level of intellect [which you don't have or blinded from] to analyze the verses in TWO perspectives to see the truth like upon further review one can see both the DUCK and RABBIT.
Btw did you see both the Duck and Rabbit in that image?

I bet if no one tell you there are two pictures in the above image you will see only one of the picture, either Duck or Rabbit and insist it is the truth.

It is the same with the Quran.
In the Quran there are the DUCK-RABBIT scenes in each verse, chapter, whole of Quran BUT as a believer Muslim the individual MUST only see either the DUCK or RABBIT but not both. This is because a believer is in such a desperate psychological state instinctively that do not allow him/her to encounter a dualistic or contradictory situation in a religious belief otherwise his/her faith will not work to deal with that psychological angst, anxieties, emptiness, despairs, etc.

It is easy for me who do not have any emotional and psychological attachment to the Quran and Islam to see the Quran objective and its two contradictory perspectives, i.e. GOOD-EVIL, DUCK-RABBIT perspectives.

I am trying to get you to see both perspectives [the matured spiritual perspective] but I know you and most Muslims cannot see both perspectives because of the inherent biasness due to selective attention, confirmation bias, inoculation theory, etc. that prevent the believer to view both perspectives.
My biases are my own personal biases and have remained unchanged from prior to my accepting Islam. Even during my Christian and Atheist years. I strongly believed in personal responsibility for my own free will choices and believed it is my responsibility to verify the morality of my choices. I am still as much a questioner as I always have been.
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Old 07-28-2016, 12:34 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are off topic on this. The above refer to hardcore disbelievers for various reasons.

I was referring to people who are already Muslims, i.e. those who have submitted and affirmed the Shahada directly or impliedly.
Based on the Principles of Normal Distribution, [Bell Curve] within the 1.5 billion Muslims there will be a range [low to high] of personalities, psychology, and all physical and mental abilities.
It is obvious there will be a percentage % of Muslims who are idiots and cannot understand the whole message of the Quran no matter what steps are taken to educate them on it.

We have gone through this many times in your ignorance of human nature and how the brain works. Human abilities [physical or mental] critically depend on connections of the nerves [neuron]. Once the nerves are damaged they are done for good, note the physical and mentally handicaps and their varying degrees. The borderline cases may have a chance of cure but not the problematic ones.

"Understanding" any thing involved a complicated high level mental faculty with billions and billions of connections. If 'understanding' is so easy to train, then we will have all students in schools scoring distinctions in very subject the take. But it will remain a fact for a long time, in term of 'understanding' there will be the hardcore who cannot understand clearly because of the nature of their brain/mind [damage, bad connections] and there will be the good ones.
This fact of human nature is applicable to the understanding of religious texts, the Quran in this case.

Therefore your assumption that all can understand easily, example the Quran, is too simplistic and based on ignorance of reality and human nature.
That is the problem when one discussed with people who are hell bent to be in an ignorant state of human nature because they are restraint by their religious beliefs.


Yes, in theory but you are ignoring practical reality.
That is my point.
Some criminal may and many have done that but not all because your their physical state of the nerves connection in their brain. I believe the most is 10% of borderline cases can understand the Quran and turn into a new leaf and be good. The reality is many Muslims prisoners became worse after being exposed to evil preachers in prison.

The point is, if Allah is a really wise God and understood human nature fully, then Allah would not have included the evil laden elements in the Quran with an open-ended passport that influenced, especially the hardcore evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.
Evidence? note this [28,895] it was 28,884 yesterday
which is merely one type of evil committed by evil prone Muslims.



Why the above is because the Quran was authored by human[s] not a wise God [if exist].

If they listened, ponder and reflect, the Muslims will avoid the burning fire in Hell, but that is only within the Muslim-box and not the reality-box.
While the evil prone Muslims [potential pool of 20%] selfishly avoided the Hell within the Muslim-box, the created real hell on Earth for humanity. This is because the listened and ponder to understand the evil laden verses in the Quran and comply with them as a duty of being a 'good' Muslim to get favorable rewards in Paradise as promised by Allah in the Quran.

Again you are ignorant of human nature.
Look at this picture below,



So what did you see on the first impression of it?
It is likely you will see either the duck or the rabbit.
If you see the rabbit, you may not see the duck at all.
If no one tell you there is a 'duck' and 'rabbit' in that image, you will forever be ignorant till eternity of the other picture.

Why you or otherwise see only one picture on first impression is because of one's psychological state accumulated since birth or before birth.

It is the same with the evil prone Muslims being sensitive or inclined to the evil laden elements in the Quran. It is not based on the reading of one verse only but the overall context of the paragraph, chapter, the whole Quran, ethos of Islam and the person total psychology.

Therefore your individual verses from the Quran in blue above do not work unless you deal with the overall context of the Quran [all the evil laden verses together in synch], the overall ethos of Islam and the evil prone psychological state of the evil prone Muslims collectively [not individually].

Btw, those who see either the Duck or Rabbit do not shred the Quran into verses but ignorantly perceive only one image.
One need a higher level of intellect [which you don't have or blinded from] to analyze the verses in TWO perspectives to see the truth like upon further review one can see both the DUCK and RABBIT.
Btw did you see both the Duck and Rabbit in that image?

I bet if no one tell you there are two pictures in the above image you will see only one of the picture, either Duck or Rabbit and insist it is the truth.

It is the same with the Quran.
In the Quran there are the DUCK-RABBIT scenes in each verse, chapter, whole of Quran BUT as a believer Muslim the individual MUST only see either the DUCK or RABBIT but not both. This is because a believer is in such a desperate psychological state instinctively that do not allow him/her to encounter a dualistic or contradictory situation in a religious belief otherwise his/her faith will not work to deal with that psychological angst, anxieties, emptiness, despairs, etc.

It is easy for me who do not have any emotional and psychological attachment to the Quran and Islam to see the Quran objective and its two contradictory perspectives, i.e. GOOD-EVIL, DUCK-RABBIT perspectives.

I am trying to get you to see both perspectives [the matured spiritual perspective] but I know you and most Muslims cannot see both perspectives because of the inherent biasness due to selective attention, confirmation bias, inoculation theory, etc. that prevent the believer to view both perspectives.
Thank you for your style this
But in approving the Koran to try to say, a duplicator and copied
Koran in which two positions of each subject
That is you are trying to reach it
Muslim able to stick in the Meccan verses
It does not call for the fighting
But at the same time be able to declare the civil Alayan and fighting because of the Universe
That is that you want to reach it

Muslims know the difference between a duck and bunny, but they use it according to their strength
This so-called dual-sided coin
It is the same currency
Koran itself
But it is used depending on the circumstances
According to this, the Muslim turns into a terrorist mechanically
If you had the appropriate mechanism for that
This is what is happening now in Europe
Muslims initially were silent
But after that they were able to force deployed well
The next step appeared
And you will hear the third step in the near Lead Hnob France mandate of Islamist
That is why we know Islam
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Old 07-28-2016, 01:45 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Thank you for your style this
But in approving the Koran to try to say, a duplicator and copied
Koran in which two positions of each subject
That is you are trying to reach it
Muslim able to stick in the Meccan verses
It does not call for the fighting
But at the same time be able to declare the civil Alayan and fighting because of the Universe
That is that you want to reach it

Muslims know the difference between a duck and bunny, but they use it according to their strength
This so-called dual-sided coin
It is the same currency
Koran itself
But it is used depending on the circumstances
According to this, the Muslim turns into a terrorist mechanically
If you had the appropriate mechanism for that
This is what is happening now in Europe
Muslims initially were silent
But after that they were able to force deployed well
The next step appeared
And you will hear the third step in the near Lead Hnob France mandate of Islamist
That is why we know Islam
Yes, there is the Meccan and Medina Verses.

The Meccan verses do not contain much evil laden elements.
The Medinian verses contain lots of evil laden and malignant verses that inspire SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence. The Medinian verses also contain good elements but only SOME.

Quote:
Muslims know the difference between a duck and bunny, but they use it according to their strength
This so-called dual-sided coin.
In this case we cannot put ALL Muslims into one basket [as the same].

Say [Duck=evil, Rabbit=Good].

I believe
-80% of all Muslim are good human beings
-20% are evil prone.

The 80% of Muslims will see the Rabbit [good element] in the Medinian verses.
Most of these 80% of Muslims will be blind [cannot see the evil elements] in the Medinian.
A few % may see both Rabbit [Good] and Duck [evil] but there are not many.
Even if they see the 'evil' elements they will always find excuses for it. Khalif and Woodrow LI [I take it they are good Muslims] are always doing that.

The 20% [note a pool of 300 millions Muslims] will see the Duck=evil elements.
A potential of 300 million evil prone is a scary number because only one can cause a lot of damage to humanity, what more if 300 million!
When influenced and inspired by the Duck=evil elements they will commit terrible evils upon non-Muslims.
Some of these evil prone Muslims will practice Tagiya due to circumstances but their overall psychology tend towards evil and will be evil most of the time. They will strike evil whenever the opportunity arise, e.g. ISIS within a weakened Syria and Iraq due to weak politics.
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Old 07-28-2016, 05:19 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore your individual verses from the Quran in blue above do not work unless you deal with the overall context of the Quran [all the evil laden verses together in synch], the overall ethos of Islam and the evil prone psychological state of the evil prone Muslims collectively [not individually].
That's my point too. You take individual verses to illustrate your point and reject the rest, and so do your friends the same way. I take the whole Qur'an into account.

Turn your argument the other way round and it will be my argument too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the Quran there are the DUCK-RABBIT scenes in each verse, chapter, whole of Quran BUT as a believer Muslim the individual MUST only see either the DUCK or RABBIT but not both. This is because a believer is in such a desperate psychological state instinctively that do not allow him/her to encounter a dualistic or contradictory situation in a religious belief otherwise his/her faith will not work to deal with that psychological angst, anxieties, emptiness, despairs, etc.
It is foolish to use this argument when the Qur'an as a whole is against taking life, killing innocent people (Muslims as well as non-Muslims) and doing any evil act.

What you do not understand is that a vast majority of evil prone do not pray or fast. They do not go to mosques to pray but to kill worshipers. They do everything possible that is forbidden in the Book. Do you believe that they read the Qur'an like those who go to pray in a mosque every day? Not a chance! No guy reads the Qur'an who does not pray every day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is easy for me who do not have any emotional and psychological attachment to the Quran and Islam to see the Quran objective and its two contradictory perspectives, i.e. GOOD-EVIL, DUCK-RABBIT perspectives.
You are blind to the overall message of the Qur'an because you deliberately, in your bias, disregard the overriding, central and the fundamental verses. Your friend Baghdadi does the same. The difference between you two is that Baghdadi uses the ignorant ones as pawns (so-called soldiers on foot) in his game and you only support his evil game with your ducks and rabbits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am trying to get you to see both perspectives [the matured spiritual perspective] but I know you and most Muslims cannot see both perspectives because of the inherent biasness due to selective attention, confirmation bias, inoculation theory, etc. that prevent the believer to view both perspectives.
Come back when you have understood the Qur'an properly. Until then even you will see only a duck or a rabbit in each verse. You are, therefore, a sitting duck for the Shaytan.
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Old 07-28-2016, 05:24 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Khalif;

Here is an experience to understand your own human nature;
[on the assumption you have not done this before]
O.M.G. Why do the unbelievers understand others' nature but not the others?
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Old 07-28-2016, 05:27 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Yes, there is the Meccan and Medina Verses.

The Meccan verses do not contain much evil laden elements.
The Medinian verses contain lots of evil laden and malignant verses that inspire SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence. The Medinian verses also contain good elements but only SOME.

In this case we cannot put ALL Muslims into one basket [as the same].

Say [Duck=evil, Rabbit=Good].

I believe
-80% of all Muslim are good human beings
-20% are evil prone.

The 80% of Muslims will see the Rabbit [good element] in the Medinian verses.
Most of these 80% of Muslims will be blind [cannot see the evil elements] in the Medinian.
A few % may see both Rabbit [Good] and Duck [evil] but there are not many.
Even if they see the 'evil' elements they will always find excuses for it. Khalif and Woodrow LI [I take it they are good Muslims] are always doing that.

The 20% [note a pool of 300 millions Muslims] will see the Duck=evil elements.
A potential of 300 million evil prone is a scary number because only one can cause a lot of damage to humanity, what more if 300 million!
When influenced and inspired by the Duck=evil elements they will commit terrible evils upon non-Muslims.
Some of these evil prone Muslims will practice Tagiya due to circumstances but their overall psychology tend towards evil and will be evil most of the time. They will strike evil whenever the opportunity arise, e.g. ISIS within a weakened Syria and Iraq due to weak politics.
Is there any indication there is less violence in nations where the majority are not influenced by the Qur'an? Such as Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Haiti, Jamaica or even the USA. Should be a significant decline in violence as those 20% prone to evil have no influence from the Qur'an.

Any large city with no significant Muslim population should show little violence if your hypothesis is correct. Yet the overall rates of violence are not religious motivated nor by people that read the Qur'an. The over whelming incidences of violence are not terrorist attacks nor religious inspired, they are by your local, friendly, non-religious neighborhood criminal. Even the violence of ISIS is overshadowed by the violence of the drug cartels. Population density seems to be more of a causative factor of violence than religious influence. The most densely populated regions have the highest violence rate, the least densely populated regions have the lowest rates of violence.
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Old 07-28-2016, 09:44 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
Reputation: 204
[quote=Khalif;44923724]
Quote:
That's my point too. You take individual verses to illustrate your point and reject the rest, and so do your friends the same way. I take the whole Qur'an into account.

Turn your argument the other way round and it will be my argument too
.You are going contrary to the right direction
Koran and one block can not be hashed

It is the word of God, which is not done wrong

Verses in Medina is the sequel to the Meccan verses

Is turning the call from the peaceful direction to the terrorist military direction in which the states of the fighting and the spoils
So we understand the Qur'an in its true form full and not missing
I think you understand that too, but you hide it
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Old 07-28-2016, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Is there any indication there is less violence in nations where the majority are not influenced by the Qur'an? Such as Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Haiti, Jamaica or even the USA. Should be a significant decline in violence as those 20% prone to evil have no influence from the Qur'an.

Any large city with no significant Muslim population should show little violence if your hypothesis is correct. Yet the overall rates of violence are not religious motivated nor by people that read the Qur'an. The over whelming incidences of violence are not terrorist attacks nor religious inspired, they are by your local, friendly, non-religious neighborhood criminal. Even the violence of ISIS is overshadowed by the violence of the drug cartels. Population density seems to be more of a causative factor of violence than religious influence. The most densely populated regions have the highest violence rate, the least densely populated regions have the lowest rates of violence.
Adding to my above post:

If Islam is a significant contributor to violence, the USA state with the most Muslims should be the most violent:

The 10 states with the largest Muslim populations are California, New York, Illinois, New Jersey, Indiana, Michigan, Virginia, Texas, Ohio, and Maryland.

http://iraq.usembassy.gov/resources/...atistical.html

Yet not one of them makes the list of the 10 most violent states:

The top 10:
  1. Louisiana
  2. Alaska
  3. Tennessee
  4. Delaware
  5. Nevada
  6. Arkansas
  7. Missouri
  8. Florida
  9. South Carolina
  10. Arizona


America's 10 Most Violent States: List

This does not support the theory that some verses in the Qur'an inspire evil prone people to commit violence.
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MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

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Old 07-28-2016, 11:32 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Quote:
Come back when you have understood the Qur'an properly. Until then even you will see only a duck or a rabbit in each verse. You are, therefore, a sitting duck for the Shaytan
.
You are a moderate Muslim as claimed
But here sent a message of hatred ????? (a sitting duck for the Shaytan[)?????
Why is this menace to our friend (Continuum)

He is trying to understand the Koran is right
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