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Old 07-29-2016, 02:28 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
As I have been trying for so long to explain to you, "believe" is central to Islam (prerequisite) than "submit". There is no "submit" without "believe".
Your is a constipated sort of 'simple-Simon' thinking on this which emphasis is confined merely to before 'submit.'

My argument is 'believe' is in the background of any beliefs and 'believe' is extensively applicable in every aspect of Islam prior and after the initial 'submitting' phase and the state of submission.

There is difference between;

1. Believe then submit and
2. Submit then believe.

The two different phases and senses entail different states of mind and mental processes.
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Old 07-29-2016, 03:09 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Your analysis will make no sense unless you are saying that 80% of Muslims are not pleasing Allah by not complying with the "evil laden elements" in the Qur'an as is their duty and, therefore, are going to hell.

Your argument stinks as it effectively condemns 80% (your figure) of Muslims to hell.
You cannot understand [not necessary agree] what I am trying to show because you are ignorant of human nature and even your own nature as a human being.

I suggested we do an exercise to establish consensus on the understanding [not agreeing] the issue I am raising.

Note this image again;



As with the above, the Quran in words presented a DUCK-RABBIT scenario.
Generally the average humans only see one image and not the other.
Thus there are both good and evil laden elements in the Quran depending on whether one is good or evil prone. The good will see one perspective while the evil prone will see another perspective but not both.

My task is to make you understand there are both good and evil elements depending on one's perspectives.

Now what I am saying is the 80% cannot even see or read the evil laden elements in the Quran even though they are there in the Quran.
If the 80% cannot see the evil laden elements, therefore there is no question of the moderate not complying to the evil laden elements.
In this case I am not condemning the 80% to hell for doing good and are blinded to the effective evil laden elements.
Do you understand [not necessary agree] my point?

On the other hand the majority of the evil prone Muslims will perceive the evil laden elements [to them is good] and thus are inclined to act on them to please God which in reality turned out to be terrible for humanity. Because the evil prone naturally cannot perceive the good elements, one cannot blame them for not doing good.
Get my point.

Note there are a small percentage who can see both good and evil but choose to do either one due to their natural inclinations, but they are small in numbers, thus I will ignore this group of people for this discussion.

The above facts are not easy to communicate and to be understood by most and worst by believers because by default they must be biased towards their own religion from their good or evil perspectives.

I am confident of my points because the facts are there, i.e. there are Muslims [from the pool of 20% evil prone] who are killing non-Muslims and even Muslims when they act upon the verses of the Quran which they deem as good and will enable them to go to Paradise expeditiously.



There is also the fact that the majority of Muslims perceive the verses in the Quran and their deeds do not result in terrible evils and violence.

I suggest you think deeply on the above points and not simply jump to conclusion like Simple-Simon.

Here is one example which hopefully can convey my point;

Say there is A and B looking at this image;


A insist he see ONLY a Rabbit and nothing else.[he cannot see the Duck at all due to his psychological make-up].
B insist he see a Duck and nothing else. [he cannot see the Rabbit at all.]
Thus each is ignorant of what the other see.

Because A is so certain he see a Rabbit, A will condemn B as delusional, mad, or whatever.
Because B is so certain he sees a Duck, B will condemn A as delusional, mad, evil, or whatever.

Because each A and B are so confident of their personal perception they will continue to insist and argue for days till no end each is right and the other wrong.
If there is a monetary interest at stake in which perception is correct A or B may even kill the other.

If there is a theological salvation at stake in combination with evil laden elements, it is like one will kill the other because the psychological and emotional stake is so high.

Then comes C who can see both the DUCK and the RABBIT and told them the truth of the image.
However it is not likely A or B will believe C because A will always see a Rabbit and B will always see a DUCK and never both.

This is what happen with the 80% of Muslims and 20% of evil prone Muslims who can never perceive and understand what the other perceive with the same Quran they are reading.
This is why I stated a wise God will never allow such duality and ambiguity in terms of doctrine and moral. But unfortunately the Quran [in part] do have such a duality because it was authored by human[s] and not a wise God [if exists]. The result is untold misery, evils and violence committed by evil prone Muslims from that pool of ~20%.

Last edited by Continuum; 07-29-2016 at 03:19 AM..
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Old 07-29-2016, 03:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Agree.
As I had mentioned in post #2 the results from this source need further analysis.

I checked from another source,

The word(s) "believe" [in all words] appears 1193 time(s) in 965 verse(s) in Quran in Saheeh International translation. Believing appears 66 times.

The word(s) "believe" appears 855 time(s) in 711 verse(s) in Quran in Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation.
Your search using "believed" i.e. past tense is misleading as what is critical is the main word.

I better do my own analysis instead of relying on the above source.
I have done my analysis based on concepts rather than merely 'words'.
As I have mentioned there are more than 3,500 verses that reflect the concept of 'us versus them" [us=good, them=evil/bad] in the Quran which various degrees of contempt [abhorrence] against the "them" i.e. the non-Muslims.

My point is counting the number times a word is used, do give some implications to the central message of the Quran.

I am sure the term "believe" as appearing in any tense or verb [e.g. believed, believing, etc,] will appear more than 9 times in Asad. Do that search again in Asad's using only 'believe' not merely believed [past tense] and also "believing".
The only way to count any word in the Qur'an is to count that word in the Arabic Qur'an. The Qur'an was revealed in Arabic and, therefore, only the count in Arabic will be the correct count.
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Old 07-29-2016, 03:48 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You cannot understand [not necessary agree] what I am trying to show because you are ignorant of human nature and even your own nature as a human being.

I suggested we do an exercise to establish consensus on the understanding [not agreeing] the issue I am raising.
We are discussing the Qur'an in this forum. You may imagine any duck or blind bunny but I will stick to the words of the Qur'an. I don't just imagine something but always try to understand.
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Old 07-29-2016, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Agree.
As I had mentioned in post #2 the results from this source need further analysis.

I checked from another source,

The word(s) "believe" [in all words] appears 1193 time(s) in 965 verse(s) in Quran in Saheeh International translation. Believing appears 66 times.

The word(s) "believe" appears 855 time(s) in 711 verse(s) in Quran in Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation.
Your search using "believed" i.e. past tense is misleading as what is critical is the main word.

I better do my own analysis instead of relying on the above source.
I have done my analysis based on concepts rather than merely 'words'.
As I have mentioned there are more than 3,500 verses that reflect the concept of 'us versus them" [us=good, them=evil/bad] in the Quran which various degrees of contempt [abhorrence] against the "them" i.e. the non-Muslims.

My point is counting the number times a word is used, do give some implications to the central message of the Quran.

I am sure the term "believe" as appearing in any tense or verb [e.g. believed, believing, etc,] will appear more than 9 times in Asad. Do that search again in Asad's using only 'believe' not merely believed [past tense] and also "believing".
Good to see you say: "I better do my own analysis instead of relying on the above source."

It is wise to always verify all things and not rely on the words of individuals.
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Old 07-29-2016, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
We are discussing the Qur'an in this forum. You may imagine any duck or blind bunny but I will stick to the words of the Qur'an. I don't just imagine something but always try to understand.
I did not suggest any imagination but merely a real exercise to use your own experience to understand your own nature in real time.

Btw, have you heard from Einstein,

Imagination is MORE IMPORTANT than knowledge.

Quote:
I believe in intuition and inspiration. At times I feel certain I am right while not knowing the reason. When the eclipse of 1919 confirmed my intuition, I was not in the least surprised. In fact I would have been astonished had it turned out otherwise.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution. It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research. -Einstein.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein
Of course the above imagination must be guided by intelligence and wisdom.

...............
Note the above exercise the principles are directly applicable to the various understanding and perception of the Quran's message by different Muslim.
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Old 07-29-2016, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The only way to count any word in the Qur'an is to count that word in the Arabic Qur'an. The Qur'an was revealed in Arabic and, therefore, only the count in Arabic will be the correct count.
I am doing that [at least based on transliteration] for some words but I have to have a better grasp of Arabic first. One difficulty is the main word in Arabic is mixed up with gender, cases and other prefixes and suffixes.

For example the words with;
Kafir = 135 times [bialkafireena, kafirun, etc.]
Kafar = 229 times [re kafara, kafaroo, wakafaroo, Fakafaroo, kafartum]

Thus we have 364 elements of direct words related to non-Muslims. My detailed scrutiny revealed 3,500 verses contain elements related to non-Muslims with contemptuous elements, i.e. evil laden elements.

The point is even 100 elements of contempt against non-Muslims in a holy text by God is already a very serious issue, but 3,500 evil elements [of various degrees] is really horrific beyond words. How can a religion that claimed to be peaceful has so many tons of unrestraint evil laden verses in its holy texts.

Counting the words in Arabic is more precise; but counting based on translated English words do give one a very rough idea of the word composition and for inference to some other rough ideas which can be confirmed and polished via various checking and verification.
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Old 07-30-2016, 10:50 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am doing that [at least based on transliteration] for some words but I have to have a better grasp of Arabic first. One difficulty is the main word in Arabic is mixed up with gender, cases and other prefixes and suffixes.

For example the words with;
Kafir = 135 times [bialkafireena, kafirun, etc.]
Kafar = 229 times [re kafara, kafaroo, wakafaroo, Fakafaroo, kafartum]

Thus we have 364 elements of direct words related to non-Muslims.
You illustrate your handicap in understanding the Qur'an perfectly.

Not all non-Muslims are described as kafir or Kuffar (plural) in the Qur'an. You have got your understanding of these words even in English mixed up.
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Old 07-30-2016, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You illustrate your handicap in understanding the Qur'an perfectly.
Not all non-Muslims are described as kafir or Kuffar (plural) in the Qur'an. You have got your understanding of these words even in English mixed up.
Your handicap and incompetence are more glaring in missing my point due to your inherent biasness and blindness.

Isn't is a fact that disbelievers [kuffar, kafir/kafara[singular]] are obviously non-Muslims.
I did not say all non-Muslims are kafir.

In any case, in the present modern time almost every non-Muslim is a kafir, i.e. one who is informed and aware of Islam but do not accept Islam and are a threat to Islam. Any others who do not fit into the label 'kafir' are likely to be idolaters, non-theistic and others who are condemned in the Quran.

Quote:
Kafir (Arabic: كافر‎‎ kāfir; plural كفّار kuffār; feminine كافرة kāfirah) is an Arabic term (from the root K-F-R "to cover") "unbeliever", or "disbeliever". It is used as a derogatory term.[1][2][3] The term[2] alludes to a person who rejects or disbelieves in God and the teachings of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad,[4] and denies the dominion and authority of God;[5] or otherwise does not heed the beliefs and prescriptions held by the religion of Islam. Unbelief is called kufr. Kafir is sometimes used interchangeably with mushrik (مشرك, those who commit polytheism), another type of religious wrongdoer mentioned frequently in the Quran and Islamic works.[6] The practice of declaring another self-professed Muslim a kafir is known as takfir.
In the general English sense;

noun: kafir; plural noun: kafirs
a person who is not a Muslim (used chiefly by Muslims).
Islam. an infidel or unbeliever.
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