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Old 08-03-2016, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are, I believe, correct about "most Muslims". Most do not understand the Qur'an.

The "basic fact" is that a Muslim (who actually submits) has already entered into a contract.
Agree.

Quote:
No. It is basically a contract to live this life according to the purpose one came into existence.
No, rather your next point is correct, i.e.

Quote:
It all depends on the terms and conditions of the contract which are already declared in the contract.
That is the Principles of Contract. Even the Quran is well verse with the Principles of Contract as in 2:282 [re debts] and related verses. All the relevant terms of the contract are within the 6,236 verses of the Quran, the words of Allah and from no where else.

Quote:
Correct to an extent. Exception is that it is not "must comply" with ALL or else you go to hell but "must intend and try to comply" sincerely with the guidance if you are able to comply.
I agree not ALL, and the provision is;
2:286 [Part] Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope. ..
However non compliance with terms within one's scope will result in one going to Hell [if sins are much greater than merits].

Quote:
There are no terms and conditions in this contract that require a Muslim to do evil acts. This is why I am not breaking the covenant the terms of which I understand well.
I did mention Allah did not issue any absolute maxim for Muslims to kill non-Muslims specifically. But there are tons of evil laden elements in the verses that will definitely influenced and inspired SOME evil prone Muslims [a pool of 300 millions exist in reality ] that results in this reality' [28,945] which is very frightening;



Note this evil that is happening again at your doorstep!

Quote:
Woman in her 60s has died and five others injured after a man 'went on the rampage' with a knife in central London
London
How long are you going to deny Islam itself [in PART, not wholly] has something to do with it because of the inherent evil elements in the Quran?

Note this verse;
2:244. Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Nearer, Knower.
This verse is not subjected to any conditions, therefore absolute, unconditional and standing by itself.
When supported by tons of other evil laden verses, SOME evil prone [born naturally with active evil tendencies] will be influenced to commit evils and violence on non-Muslims and other Muslims.

The irony is in the last few weeks, some Muslims and non-Muslims were bragging how peaceful is the UK without violence and evils from Muslims for long time because they have taken steps to harmonize with the Muslim communities.

My hypothesis [posted many times] is the truth of reality and as long as there is Islam being practiced by Muslims, SOME evil prone Muslims will be influenced and inspired to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims without fail because that is inherent within the ethos of Islam. Note NO Muslims are to be blamed for the evils and violence directly [as the root cause], but it is the ideology that must be blamed because it partly has very malignant evil elements.
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Old 08-03-2016, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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The Principles of Contract where both parties must fulfil their obligations, even with God, note below;
2:40. O Children of Israel! [Jews] Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfil your (part of the) covenant, I [Allah] shall fulfil My (part of the) covenant and fear Me.
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Old 08-04-2016, 07:28 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It all depends on the terms and conditions of the contract which are already declared in the contract.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is basically a religious or spiritual contract [covenant] and nothing much more than it is a contract to deal with the fears of eternal death and the hope of eternal life as promised by Allah within the terms of the covenant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. It is basically a contract to live this life according to the purpose one came into existence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
No, rather your next point is correct, i.e.

That is the Principles of Contract. Even the Quran is well verse with the Principles of Contract as in 2:282 [re debts] and related verses. All the relevant terms of the contract are within the 6,236 verses of the Quran, the words of Allah and from no where else.
The Principles of Contract deal with the Way human should live this life on earth so that s/he meets the purpose of her/his existence. Most people (even many Muslims) do not know that unless they have understood the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree not ALL, and the provision is;
2:286 [Part] Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope. ..
However non compliance with terms within one's scope will result in one going to Hell [if sins are much greater than merits].
If sins (terms not kept) are greater than terms complied with. Merit of good deed or merit of bad deed also carries weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I did mention Allah did not issue any absolute maxim for Muslims to kill non-Muslims specifically. But there are tons of evil laden elements in the verses that will definitely influenced and inspired SOME evil prone Muslims [a pool of 300 millions exist in reality ] that results in this reality' [28,945] which is very frightening;
As I had stated, there are no terms and conditions in this contract that require a Muslim to do evil acts. This is why I am not breaking the covenant the terms of which I understand well.

The verses you keep imagining to be evil laden are in fact justice laden verses. Evil act is certainly an unjust act. No verse is telling anyone to be unjust and do evil act. Twisting them to the other way round is unjust and an evil act.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note this evil that is happening again at your doorstep!
Covenant is not guilty for such evil but the breaking of the covenant and disregarding the purpose for which man was created.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
How long are you going to deny Islam itself [in PART, not wholly] has something to do with it because of the inherent evil elements in the Quran?
As long as you carry on blaming the Qur'an for such evils despite accepting that doing such evil is not the term of the covenant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note this verse;
2:244. Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Nearer, Knower.
This verse is not subjected to any conditions, therefore absolute, unconditional and standing by itself.
This verse is not the whole covenant but the same fighting mentioned in the other verses is collectively part of the covenant. ALL the verses on fighting "in the way of Allah" must be read and understood. Here are two verses about fighting that dismiss your faulty understanding of [2:244]:

[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.

[22.39] Permission
(to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
When supported by tons of other evil laden verses, SOME evil prone [born naturally with active evil tendencies] will be influenced to commit evils and violence on non-Muslims and other Muslims.
You see the verses as evil laden verses but I see the verses as justice laden verses. If these verses had been evil laden verses, I too would have been influenced to do evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The irony is in the last few weeks, some Muslims and non-Muslims were bragging how peaceful is the UK without violence and evils from Muslims for long time because they have taken steps to harmonize with the Muslim communities.
UK is still comparatively peaceful. There is still harmony with "the Muslim communities". It is silly to think that "the Muslim communities" have suddenly become violent in the UK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My hypothesis [posted many times] is the truth of reality and as long as there is Islam being practiced by Muslims, SOME evil prone Muslims will be influenced and inspired to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims without fail because that is inherent within the ethos of Islam.
Your hypothesis is load of crap. It is just like saying that as long as human beings have freewill, SOME evil prone humans will commit terrible evil and violence on other human beings because evil potential is inherent in them from the birth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note NO Muslims are to be blamed for the evils and violence directly [as the root cause], but it is the ideology that must be blamed because it partly has very malignant evil elements.
Which ideology? Islam that is practiced by me and millions of others who are not violent? Only a fool will blame the ideology of the peaceful Muslims!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Principles of Contract where both parties must fulfil their obligations, even with God, note below;
2:40. O Children of Israel! [Jews] Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfil your (part of the) covenant, I [Allah] shall fulfil My (part of the) covenant and fear Me.
Yes, the contract was broken by only one party; God has never broken His side of the contract (Covenant).
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Old 08-04-2016, 03:16 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note this evil that is happening again at your doorstep!

Woman in her 60s has died and five others injured after a man 'went on the rampage' with a knife in central London

How long are you going to deny Islam itself [in PART, not wholly] has something to do with it because of the inherent evil elements in the Quran?
Do you think a man murdered a woman in her 60s in London because of the Qur'an?
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Old 08-06-2016, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Do you think a man murdered a woman in her 60s in London because of the Qur'an?
Earlier it was reported that London incident was related to terrorism. But according the official police, the Nowegian-Somali man was a 'mental-case.' So I am retracting my point as it is not valid in accordance to the police report.
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Old 08-06-2016, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The Principles of Contract deal with the Way human should live this life on earth so that s/he meets the purpose of her/his existence. Most people (even many Muslims) do not know that unless they have understood the Qur'an.
Nope, the Principles of Contract merely deal with the generic rules of any contract but not the contents of the contract.
In general the Principles of Contract express that a contract must have an agreement between two parties and each must fulfil their respective obligations [promises] as stated within the contract only and no where else.

The purpose of the contract within the Quran is conditioned by whatever is stated within the 6,236 verses of the Quran and no where else.

The Quran may state how a Muslim should lead his/her life within the conditions of the Quran, but such conditions I believed are not in alignment with the reality of humanity. This is why SOME evil prone Muslims in compliance with the Quran are committing terrible evils and violence.

Quote:
As I had stated, there are no terms and conditions in this contract that require a Muslim to do evil acts. This is why I am not breaking the covenant the terms of which I understand well.

The verses you keep imagining to be evil laden are in fact justice laden verses. Evil act is certainly an unjust act. No verse is telling anyone to be unjust and do evil act. Twisting them to the other way round is unjust and an evil act.
I am starting with facts, i.e. SOME Muslims as influenced and inspired by the evil laden verses in the Quran [they are quoting from the Quran & Ahadith] are committing real terrible evils and violence.

Here is one type of terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims. [28,964]


The point is the very existence of the evil laden elements in the Quran [& Ahadith] present DUCK-RABBIT truths and different realities of 'good' and 'evil' prone Muslims.
As I had mentioned many time, there are evil laden elements of up to more than 3,400++ verses i.e. >55% in the Quran of various degrees that are influencing the evil prone to commit terrible evils which to them is views as 'good' in their duty to Allah to go to Paradise and avoiding Hell.

Quote:
Covenant is not guilty for such evil but the breaking of the covenant and disregarding the purpose for which man was created.
If Muslims attribute partners, sons, deities, gods to Allah, that is breaking the covenant. But the evil prone Muslims when they fight non-Muslims in the cause of Allah when they are wronged [vague] are not breaking the covenant.

Quote:
As long as you carry on blaming the Qur'an for such evils despite accepting that doing such evil is not the term of the covenant.
Note the Quran and Allah exhort the Muslims to fight non-Muslims if Islam is under threat or wronged. And the evil prone Muslims are complying 100% with the Quran, what is wrong with that from Allah's eyes.
And WHO ARE YOU to insist they are wrong?

Quote:
This verse is not the whole covenant but the same fighting mentioned in the other verses is collectively part of the covenant. ALL the verses on fighting "in the way of Allah" must be read and understood. Here are two verses about fighting that dismiss your faulty understanding of [2:244]:

[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.

[22.39] Permission
(to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them.
It is not only all verses on fighting "in the way of Allah" that must be taken into consideration, but rather whatever verses that are related individually and collectively must be taken into account.

In the first place, war [itself is evil] elements [aggressive, defensive and even just] should not have been included in an immutable holy texts to pollute it with evil elements.

What happened with the Quran is the mistake of including war [evil] elements and that is made worse by the vague conditions of permission for fighting within a tsunami of evil elements [dehumanizing, aggression, violence, contempt, anger, condemnations] against non-Muslims.

Quote:
You see the verses as evil laden verses but I see the verses as justice laden verses. If these verses had been evil laden verses, I too would have been influenced to do evil.
Whatever "I see" and "you see" is not critical. What is most dangerous is how and what the evil prone Muslim "see" when they interact with the evil elements in the Quran religiously and psychologically.

I have already requested you to do the DUCK-RABBIT experiment. You reject this and thus is not able to understand the reality of human nature and even your own human nature.
It is most likely you will not see the evil elements in their active sense when you read the Quran, but the evil prone will definitely perceived, react, response and are triggered by the evil elements in the Quran.

Quote:
Your hypothesis is load of crap. It is just like saying that as long as human beings have freewill, SOME evil prone humans will commit terrible evil and violence on other human beings because evil potential is inherent in them from the birth.
Nope, you misunderstood my point.
What I stated was human being do not have absolute freewill.
Without freewill, evil prone humans [some] are compelled by their inherent nature [from birth] to commit terrible evils and violence when they are exposed and interact with evil laden elements [example those in the Quran].

Quote:
Which ideology? Islam that is practiced by me and millions of others who are not violent? Only a fool will blame the ideology of the peaceful Muslims!
It is a fact, the majority of people who are exposed to violence and evil in movies, various medias, books, etc. do not turn violent. But there is a percentile who will definitely be influenced by these violence and evils to commit evils and violence. That is why the authorities are so serious in censoring and banning movies and medias with excessive evils and violent elements. This is an undeniable fact! Prove me wrong on this.

It is the same with evil and violence elements in religious texts, especially those with no overriding absolute moral maxims, to influence SOME evil prone believers to commit evils and violence.
In fact all evil and violent elements in all religious texts should be censored and banned.

The point is not the ideology of peaceful Muslims!
Islam is based on a ideology that was started by a man or a group of people who for their own reasons included tons of evil laden elements. Worst this ideology is made immutable and exploited the existential weakness of humans.
It is this ideology invented in the 7th century and made permanent, and is exposed to good and evil prone believers.
It is only natural that the evil prone will be influenced by the evil elements within that immutable ideology.
The immutable ideology with evil laden elements is Primarily to be blamed not the evil prone believers [secondary where necessary].

Quote:
Yes, the contract was broken by only one party; God has never broken His side of the contract (Covenant).
Yes, according to the set up, theoretically, God will never break is side of the contract, but the fact is no one will ever know the real truth if God ever break his promises. Ultimately this is a non-starter because it is impossible for a God to exists as real.

One thing that is very obvious is a very pious believer will not dare to break any side of their contract. Most of the terrorists are the ones [beginners or old-timers] who walk, eat, live and sleep their religious duties and comply with as much as possible with the expectations of the religious texts. Therefore it is likely the terrorists [most] will not break their side of the covenant.
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Old 08-07-2016, 02:45 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Nope, the Principles of Contract merely deal with the generic rules of any contract but not the contents of the contract.
The contents, all of them, of the contract are the rules and terms and conditions that make up the principles of the contract. And there is always a purpose for such contract. Purpose of Covenant between God and man is not to do evil but do good to human beings (including to your nafs) on earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In general the Principles of Contract express that a contract must have an agreement between two parties and each must fulfil their respective obligations [promises] as stated within the contract only and no where else.
And what is purpose of such contract?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The purpose of the contract within the Quran is conditioned by whatever is stated within the 6,236 verses of the Quran and no where else.
And what is the purpose of such contract?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran may state how a Muslim should lead his/her life within the conditions of the Quran, but such conditions I believed are not in alignment with the reality of humanity. This is why SOME evil prone Muslims in compliance with the Quran are committing terrible evils and violence.
80% (your figure) of Muslims prove you wrong. And you are deliberately ignoring them. That is not taking human reality into account in your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am starting with facts, i.e. SOME Muslims as influenced and inspired by the evil laden verses in the Quran [they are quoting from the Quran & Ahadith] are committing real terrible evils and violence.
You are not starting with facts. I am starting with facts. I quote the Qur'an and you start counting the verses. I quote 80% (your figure) and you don't want to count the Muslims not doing evil. You have rules that are convenient only to your twisted point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point is the very existence of the evil laden elements in the Quran [& Ahadith] present DUCK-RABBIT truths and different realities of 'good' and 'evil' prone Muslims.
In the Qur'an, all verses are made clear. ALL must be taken into account or else DUCK-RABBIT is in someone's head only and not in the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had mentioned many time, there are evil laden elements of up to more than 3,400++ verses i.e. >55% in the Quran of various degrees that are influencing the evil prone to commit terrible evils which to them is views as 'good' in their duty to Allah to go to Paradise and avoiding Hell.
It is the war on their countries that is influencing them and not the verses of the Qur'an or else 80% (your figure) would be doing evil acts too. You cannot take a minority only into account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If Muslims attribute partners, sons, deities, gods to Allah, that is breaking the covenant. But the evil prone Muslims when they fight non-Muslims in the cause of Allah when they are wronged [vague] are not breaking the covenant.
They are breaking the covenant (60:8-9) when they kill those who had not made war on them, expelled them from their homes and persecuted them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the Quran and Allah exhort the Muslims to fight non-Muslims if Islam is under threat or wronged.
Quote the verses if you are truthful!

When you quote these verses, make sure that the word "threat" and "wrong" is in them and it is proper translation of the Arabic word in the Arabic Qur'an. I will then show you that the vagueness is in your head only and not in the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
And the evil prone Muslims are complying 100% with the Quran, what is wrong with that from Allah's eyes.
And WHO ARE YOU to insist they are wrong?
And WHO ARE YOU to insist that they are right? ALLAH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is not only all verses on fighting "in the way of Allah" that must be taken into consideration, but rather whatever verses that are related individually and collectively must be taken into account.
ALL are COLLECITVELY, and COLLECTIVELY are ALL. One cannot pick and choose some and ignore the rest on the same issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the first place, war [itself is evil] elements [aggressive, defensive and even just] should not have been included in an immutable holy texts to pollute it with evil elements.
You have double standard about human reality; one for you and the other for Muslims. Holy texts do deal with human reality and to fight the evil of those who attack Muslims for their Deen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What happened with the Quran is the mistake of including war [evil] elements and that is made worse by the vague conditions of permission for fighting within a tsunami of evil elements [dehumanizing, aggression, violence, contempt, anger, condemnations] against non-Muslims.
Wars did not come after the Qur'an was revealed. The Qur'an deals, quite rightly, with the evil of unjust wars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Whatever "I see" and "you see" is not critical. What is most dangerous is how and what the evil prone Muslim "see" when they interact with the evil elements in the Quran religiously and psychologically.
They see non-Muslims declaring Crusades on Muslims in the Middle East.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have already requested you to do the DUCK-RABBIT experiment.
And you do not see that I have already done so the reason I see the way I see the verses of the Qur'an. You should have thought about that. That is the best way to do the DUCH-RABBIT experiment and come to the correct conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You reject this and thus is not able to understand the reality of human nature and even your own human nature.
No. You are utterly wrong there as you do not understand human nature and my nature which is human nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is most likely you will not see the evil elements in their active sense when you read the Quran, but the evil prone will definitely perceived, react, response and are triggered by the evil elements in the Quran.
Wrong again! Turn the argument on its head and you will see the reality of human nature of 80% (your figure).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Nope, you misunderstood my point.
What I stated was human being do not have absolute freewill.
I have never claimed that human beings have absolute freewill outside their circle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Without freewill, evil prone humans [some] are compelled by their inherent nature [from birth] to commit terrible evils and violence when they are exposed and interact with evil laden elements [example those in the Quran].
That means you are illustrating here that they have absolute freewill within their circle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is a fact, the majority of people who are exposed to violence and evil in movies, various medias, books, etc. do not turn violent.
They have had education to control their Nafs (Self).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But there is a percentile who will definitely be influenced by these violence and evils to commit evils and violence.
They haven't had education to control their Self.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is why the authorities are so serious in censoring and banning movies and medias with excessive evils and violent elements. This is an undeniable fact! Prove me wrong on this.
The Qur'an is also the Authority that bans wars on Muslims by the non-Muslims as well as on non-Muslims by Muslims unless non-Muslims begin first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is the same with evil and violence elements in religious texts, especially those with no overriding absolute moral maxims, to influence SOME evil prone believers to commit evils and violence.
There has never been any absolute moral maxim that was ever practiced in war time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In fact all evil and violent elements in all religious texts should be censored and banned.
All the evil and violent elements in all texts, media, governments, secular circles should be banned, and so should all the bombs and arms that lead to evil killings of human beings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point is not the ideology of peaceful Muslims!
When you blame Islam, you are blaming ideology of peaceful Muslims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Islam is based on a ideology that was started by a man or a group of people who for their own reasons included tons of evil laden elements. Worst this ideology is made immutable and exploited the existential weakness of humans.
Then you are blaming Islam, the ideology of ALL Muslims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is this ideology invented in the 7th century and made permanent, and is exposed to good and evil prone believers.
This comment is invented by an unbeliever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is only natural that the evil prone will be influenced by the evil elements within that immutable ideology.
Why aren't the majority doing evil acts? Let me guess; there are no evil acts commanded in the ideology. And you can't think that far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The immutable ideology with evil laden elements is Primarily to be blamed not the evil prone believers [secondary where necessary].
Attacks on Muslims in their own counties is to be blamed for evil acts of a minority. The immutable ideology should be praised for the 80% (your figure) Muslims being peaceful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Yes, according to the set up, theoretically, God will never break is side of the contract, but the fact is no one will ever know the real truth if God ever break his promises. Ultimately this is a non-starter because it is impossible for a God to exists as real.
Ultimately? You are still heading fast towards the ultimate. Even you will find out the ultimate reality ultimately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
One thing that is very obvious is a very pious believer will not dare to break any side of their contract.
Exactly! They are not breaking the covenant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Most of the terrorists are the ones [beginners or old-timers] who walk, eat, live and sleep their religious duties and comply with as much as possible with the expectations of the religious texts. Therefore it is likely the terrorists [most] will not break their side of the covenant.
They don't even know much about the covenant. The pious believers know the bounds of their covenant and they do not go behind those limits set in the covenant.
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Old 08-07-2016, 11:58 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The contents, all of them, of the contract are the rules and terms and conditions that make up the principles of the contract. And there is always a purpose for such contract. Purpose of Covenant between God and man is not to do evil but do good to human beings (including to your nafs) on earth.

And what is purpose of such contract?

And what is the purpose of such contract?
My point is on the Principles of A Contract, not on the purpose there in the contract in the case of the covenant with Allah.
Quote:
80% (your figure) of Muslims prove you wrong. And you are deliberately ignoring them. That is not taking human reality into account in your point.
80% [infact higher %] of Germans during Hitler's time were innocent. Do their existence proved Hitler was not wrong? The same is applicable to various ideologies and dictators of the world.
I don't ignore the 80% of good Muslims and note I told you even the 20% of evil prone Muslims are not to be blamed for the terrible evils and violence committed by evil prone Muslims.

I am with reality, i.e. the real reality of the real evidence of evils and violence committed by evil prone Muslims and my focus is on the ultimate root causes, i.e. the evil laden elements in the Quran.
Your problem is you are naturally blind to the evil laden elements in the Quran because as a believer you MUST be bias.
You are out of sync with reality and I suggest you wake up from your dogmatic and bias slumber to face reality.

Quote:
You are not starting with facts. I am starting with facts. I quote the Qur'an and you start counting the verses. I quote 80% (your figure) and you don't want to count the Muslims not doing evil. You have rules that are convenient only to your twisted point.
Note my point above on how I am with reality and you are out of sync with reality even in the face of real terrible evil and violence around you almost on a daily basis.



Quote:
In the Qur'an, all verses are made clear. ALL must be taken into account or else DUCK-RABBIT is in someone's head only and not in the Qur'an.
Note my explanation here;
http://www.city-data.com/forum/45049180-post12.html



Quote:
It is the war on their countries that is influencing them and not the verses of the Qur'an or else 80% (your figure) would be doing evil acts too. You cannot take a minority only into account.
The problem a 20% minority of 1.5 billion Muslims is a potential pool of 300 millions evil prone around the world. Even one lone wolf is enough to cause terrible evils and violence to humanity [note the case of the Lorry rampage and murder in Nice].
You still cannot see the real significance of this "minority" of 300 million evil prone Muslims?

Quote:
They are breaking the covenant (60:8-9) when they kill those who had not made war on them, expelled them from their homes and persecuted them.
Your point here is full of holes. Note our argument this is not an overriding absolute moral maxim on the most evil act, i.e. "killing'.

Quote:
Quote the verses if you are truthful!

When you quote these verses, make sure that the word "threat" and "wrong" is in them and it is proper translation of the Arabic word in the Arabic Qur'an. I will then show you that the vagueness is in your head only and not in the Qur'an.
It is a waste of time to refer to a single quote by quote basis.
There are thousands of evil laden verses of various degrees that drives evil like a tsunami of waves after waves that bring in terrible destructions.

"Threat" and "wrong" I will get into this in a separate OP.

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And WHO ARE YOU to insist that they are right? ALLAH?
It does not matter to me whether I am right or not.
What is critical on my part is I am showing and basing on real evidence of terrible evils committed by evil prone Muslims.
It is the same with you insisting they are wrong which is useless because you are ignoring the real evidences and the real consequences. If you do not acknowledge the Quran has a role in part to the evil committed by the evil prone reading the same Quran, we will never get to the ultimate root cause to resolve the problem effectively.
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Old 08-08-2016, 12:38 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
You have double standard about human reality; one for you and the other for Muslims. Holy texts do deal with human reality and to fight the evil of those who attack Muslims for their Deen.
Unfortunately there are evil laden elements in the Quran which appeal to the naturally born evil prone Muslims.

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Wars did not come after the Qur'an was revealed. The Qur'an deals, quite rightly, with the evil of unjust wars.
Wars [evil by itself] has existed since human emerged on Earth. Just or unjust, a wise holy text should NEVER include any war elements at all. If any, then it must be heavily qualified with an overriding absolute moral maxim on killing.

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They see non-Muslims declaring Crusades on Muslims in the Middle East.
The evil prone see the very existence of non-believers as a threat to Islam and the evil laden verses in the Quran influenced and inspired them to fight the non-believers.

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And you do not see that I have already done so the reason I see the way I see the verses of the Qur'an. You should have thought about that. That is the best way to do the DUCH-RABBIT experiment and come to the correct conclusion.
You don't seem to understand
1. what you see is what you ONLY see
2. what the evil prone see, you can never see [because your good nature do not enable you to step into their shoes at all].
That is why you failed to understand why the evil prone are acting [evil] based on the same verses from the same Quran.

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No. You are utterly wrong there as you do not understand human nature and my nature which is human nature.
This is based on your ignorance, note my explanation above why you are unable to step into the shoes of the evil prone to see what they see from the same verses in the Quran.

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Wrong again! Turn the argument on its head and you will see the reality of human nature of 80% (your figure).
Note my explanation above.

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They have had education to control their Nafs (Self).

They haven't had education to control their Self.
You are so ignorant most human beings are born with inherent nature to be good or with abilities to control their impulses. Then some are influenced by their environment to change.

Note there are many experiments done using young children [even babies] to demonstrate humans are born with inherent good and bad nature and impulse controls, here is one [I have posted this few times, as usual you will forget and you are not bothered with knowledge of human nature]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mWc1Y2dpmY

These children do not has any extensive education to control their impulses [Nafs]

Here is one on Morality in babies;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRvVFW85IcU

Hope the above educate you on your ignorance of the above.

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The Qur'an is also the Authority that bans wars on Muslims by the non-Muslims as well as on non-Muslims by Muslims unless non-Muslims begin first.
Note "unless" which is always conditional.
Humans beings are not that stupid or are zombies.
They will instinctively know how to defend themselves and improve the related rules on war over time.
There is no need for a god to teach them how to do it. For a God to be involved with elements of wars, that will only bring more harm than good to humanity. The following is the proof:



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There has never been any absolute moral maxim that was ever practiced in war time.
You are ignorant on this.
The International War Crimes Tribunals practice such an absolute moral maxim to an extent. This is why those who exceed the rules of wars are punished.

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All the evil and violent elements in all texts, media, governments, secular circles should be banned, and so should all the bombs and arms that lead to evil killings of human beings.
Agree Absolutely. That is why humanity must progress towards such as an absolutely moral maxim in time. Because there is no immutability to such a concept from the secular community this is a possibility.
It is not a possibility for Islam because the words of Allah re conditional maxim is immutable and cannot be changed.

If you agree and propose the above, i.e. "All the evil and violent elements in all texts, media, governments, secular circles should be banned", why don't you apply the above to the Quran.

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When you blame Islam, you are blaming ideology of peaceful Muslims.

Then you are blaming Islam, the ideology of ALL Muslims.
That is the problem with your immature and bad thinking.
The point is you must always separate the ideology from the followers/believers when taking this matter seriously.
It is the same with separating Nazism [invented by Hitler] from the German people. The German people has nothing to do with the invention of Nazism which was invented by one person, i.e. Hitler. Nazism was invented in the mind of a person. That is no necessity for Germans or any one to follow such an evil ideology.

Therefore when I am blaming the ideology of Islam [note PART only, not whole] it has nothing to do with blaming peaceful Muslims at all in such a situation.

Peaceful [even the evil prone] Muslims like all normal human beings who are driven DESPERATELY to seek salvation of immortality and eternal life, and escape from eternal death and Hell. It is just that these human beings happen to find an ideology to cling to where there are evil laden elements which influence the evil prone believers.

All [if not almost all] normal human beings are driven DESPERATELY to seek salvation of immortality and eternal life, and escape from eternal death and Hell. Note when they cling on to the Eastern Religions, Christianity, and others to seek salvation, why is that the believers do not end up killing non-believers in numbers as influenced directly by their holy texts. Why it is that only evil prone Muslims who quote and justify their terrible killing and evils on non-Muslims from their holy texts? This is a question that need deep reflection to get to the truths.
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Old 08-08-2016, 01:35 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My point is on the Principles of A Contract, not on the purpose there in the contract in the case of the covenant with Allah.
Your point is in ignorance about the Covenant. Its principles mean nothing to you unless you understand its purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
80% [infact higher %] of Germans during Hitler's time were innocent. Do their existence proved Hitler was not wrong? The same is applicable to various ideologies and dictators of the world.
You are acting like an ignorant man; were all Germans called Nazis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't ignore the 80% of good Muslims and note I told you even the 20% of evil prone Muslims are not to be blamed for the terrible evils and violence committed by evil prone Muslims.
When you discuss Islam or the Qur'an, you must understand that Islam is about personal responsibility. One is responsible for his/her actions. If you do not understand that you do not understand the Qur'an and Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am with reality, i.e. the real reality of the real evidence of evils and violence committed by evil prone Muslims and my focus is on the ultimate root causes, i.e. the evil laden elements in the Quran.
Silly, silly, silly!

Then the ultimate cause of peaceful acts of over 80% (your figure) must be the elements in the Qur'an. But you do not think like that.

The only root causes for the evil in the world are injustice and people unable to control their Nafs (Self).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your problem is you are naturally blind to the evil laden elements in the Quran because as a believer you MUST be bias.
I see everything in the Qur'an whereas you are still looking into the Qur'an to see many things you missed in your blindness when reading it fast 60 times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are out of sync with reality and I suggest you wake up from your dogmatic and bias slumber to face reality.
It's about time you realized that the Qur'an has been here for the past 1400 years. It will be here in another 1400 years. If you think you or anyone else is going to change the Qur'an in your own words, forget; it's not going to happen. Therefore, understand it properly. The reality is that there are no evil verses in the Qur'an but only good and just verses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note my point above on how I am with reality and you are out of sync with reality even in the face of real terrible evil and violence around you almost on a daily basis.
Until you realize that it is doing of the evil people, you will not understand the reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The problem a 20% minority of 1.5 billion Muslims is a potential pool of 300 millions evil prone around the world. Even one lone wolf is enough to cause terrible evils and violence to humanity [note the case of the Lorry rampage and murder in Nice].
You still cannot see the real significance of this "minority" of 300 million evil prone Muslims?
And your argument to do with the Qur'an verses is stupid in that case. The man never used to go to mosque and did many things unIslamic. He did not read the Qur'an either. Those people enjoying the evening were not waging war on that man or on Muslims. You are also forgetting that he was a petty thief, an angry criminal and a social outcast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your point here is full of holes. Note our argument this is not an overriding absolute moral maxim on the most evil act, i.e. "killing'.
Your Absolute Moral Maxim is useless in time of war. It has never been practiced by anyone during the time of conflict. The Qur'an has of course taken it into account. The whole world has rejected it in the times of conflicts. Therefore, there is a big hole in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is a waste of time to refer to a single quote by quote basis.
There are thousands of evil laden verses of various degrees that drives evil like a tsunami of waves after waves that bring in terrible destructions.
You are getting worst in labeling the justice laden verses as the evil laden verses. You are going to get nowhere with this kind of ignorance. The evil today is the result of evil crusade of Bush and Blair on Iraq leading to terrible destruction. Their reason (WMDs) for leashing the evil on Iraq has been proven to be a lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It does not matter to me whether I am right or not.
Nonsense!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What is critical on my part is I am showing and basing on real evidence of terrible evils committed by evil prone Muslims.
And completely ignoring the evidence based on no evil committed by a vast majority of Muslims. You must have blinkers on!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is the same with you insisting they are wrong which is useless because you are ignoring the real evidences and the real consequences.
And you are ignoring the real reasons behind it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you do not acknowledge the Quran has a role in part to the evil committed by the evil prone reading the same Quran, we will never get to the ultimate root cause to resolve the problem effectively.
And if you keep blaming the Qur'an you will never be able to identify the real causes and never be able to eliminate terrorism, injustice, violence, evil actions or bring peace in the world.

I am telling you all this today because I know you are wrong about the Qur'an verses. Your preconceived idea is not going to work. The Qur'an will be here long after we (you and I) are gone. It is going to be here to be understood rather than to be blamed for the evil acts of evil people.
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