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Old 08-15-2016, 02:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That identical percentages is impossible because there are so many different conditions within each Islamic Nations, Islamic groups and community.
Why not if it is due to the Qur'an?

At least it has made you look at other "conditions". It is a step in the right direction.
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Old 08-16-2016, 01:34 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Why not if it is due to the Qur'an?
At least it has made you look at other "conditions". It is a step in the right direction.
Note my point below;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Identical percentages are impossible because the Qur'an is not the primary cause. As you state conditions differ within each nation. But one constant is that there will be virtually identical exposure to the Qur'an. The 9 nations that produce the majority of terrorists must have a common condition other then the Qur'an and that is they are all former colonies with hatred towards their former colonizers. With the majority of their terrorism acts being directed towards their former colonizers.. Muslim Terrorists in France seem to nearly always come from their former colonies. Terrorism in the UK tends to come from their former colonies on the Indian Sub continent. (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir) which are the 2 nations most frequently hit by terrorist attacks. Outside of the Mideastern Islamic Nations which are under constant terrorism acts by ISIS.
Let me put the point in perspective.

ALL evils and violence can be categorized as follows;
1. Secular related - political, social, cultural, etc.
2. Religious related but not religious inspired - e.g. Buddhists, Christians terrors
3. Religious related and religious inspired - only by evil prone Muslims and inspired by the Quran.
As for,
3. Religious related and religious inspired - only by evil prone Muslims and inspired by the Quran.
we can divide the full range of evils can be categorized into the various sub-categories;

3a. Politically linked - Middle East, Southern Philippines,
3b. Arts and cultural - Cartoons, bombing and genocides of temples and statues, etc.
3c. Legal, sharia imposed on non-Muslims
3d. Anti-religion oppression, killing of non-believers
3e. Anti-education, Boko Haram, Malala
3f. Anti-atheists - killing of bloggers
3g. Sex - homophobia, etc.
3h. Anti-semitism
3i - Many others

The full range of evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims cover a very wide range of variables within humanity. It is for this reason that we cannot have identical % within all nations.

But one thing is for sure, it is 100% certain there will be some degree of evils and violence wherever there are a sufficient large population of Muslims. Wherever it starts it will get worse and worse in time. Note how the number of evil and violent incidents are increasing in the USA since 911.
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Old 08-16-2016, 02:03 AM
 
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My point of the last post still stands.
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Old 08-16-2016, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
My point of the last post still stands.
That is secondary and not the primary and ultimate root cause.

The ultimate root cause in perspective are the following;
1. 20% of ALL Muslims [as with all humans] has active evil tendencies.
2. The Quran [Islam] contains good and evil laden elements.
3. Element 1 and evil elements in 2 combined to generate SOME evil Islamic believers.
4. The different circumstances [secondary] trigger evil prone Muslims of 3 to commit evils and violence.

The different circumstances arising from the variables [political, social, cultural, beliefs, etc.] of human nature which at the present is reasonably well understood.
Even cartoons can trigger 3 above to go on rampage and kill many, cause destructions, but it is obvious cartoons are not the critical conditions. What is the critical conditions are 1-3 above.

The reasons you are deflecting from the ultimate root cause and give all sorts of excuses is because of psychological existential reasons. The default is all [if not, almost all] believers MUST be absolutely bias towards their beliefs regardless of the truth and facts.
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Old 08-18-2016, 03:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is secondary and not the primary and ultimate root cause.
Definitely not secondary but the primary cause or else 80% (your figure) would be doing the same as they read the same book.
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Old 08-18-2016, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,328,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note my point below;

Let me put the point in perspective.

ALL evils and violence can be categorized as follows;
1. Secular related - political, social, cultural, etc.
2. Religious related but not religious inspired - e.g. Buddhists, Christians terrors
3. Religious related and religious inspired - only by evil prone Muslims and inspired by the Quran.
As for,
3. Religious related and religious inspired - only by evil prone Muslims and inspired by the Quran.
we can divide the full range of evils can be categorized into the various sub-categories;

3a. Politically linked - Middle East, Southern Philippines,
3b. Arts and cultural - Cartoons, bombing and genocides of temples and statues, etc.
3c. Legal, sharia imposed on non-Muslims
3d. Anti-religion oppression, killing of non-believers
3e. Anti-education, Boko Haram, Malala
3f. Anti-atheists - killing of bloggers
3g. Sex - homophobia, etc.
3h. Anti-semitism
3i - Many others

The full range of evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims cover a very wide range of variables within humanity. It is for this reason that we cannot have identical % within all nations.

But one thing is for sure, it is 100% certain there will be some degree of evils and violence wherever there are a sufficient large population of Muslims. Wherever it starts it will get worse and worse in time. Note how the number of evil and violent incidents are increasing in the USA since 911.
The point still stands, in order to prove causation you have to prove that an expected and predictable increase of violence occurs as Qur'an obedience increases. Paradoxically in the region with the highest level of Qur'an reading (Mideast), the less importance the populace places on religion.


Oddly, the nations with the highest rates of violence by Muslims are in the region with the lowest level of Religious importance. While the Mideastern nations have nearly 100% Muslim populations the importance of Islam, in their lives is among the lowest in the world. There seems to be a reverse correlation. As the importance of Islam decreases the rate of violence increases.

Among Muslims in the Middle East and North Africa, solid majorities describe religion as very important. But overall the levels are not as high in the Middle East and North Africa as they are in sub-Saharan Africa, Southeast Asia and South Asia. About nine-in-ten Moroccan Muslims (89%) say religion is very important to them, followed by Muslims in Jordan (85%), the Palestinian territories (85%), Iraq (82%) and Tunisia (78%). Three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt also describe religion as very important in their lives, but significantly fewer in Lebanon (59%) say the same.

Commitment to Islam | Pew Research Center
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Old 08-18-2016, 11:13 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Definitely not secondary but the primary cause or else 80% (your figure) would be doing the same as they read the same book.
I have already explained many times the 80% of Muslims who are born with active good tendencies will be indifferent to the evil elements in the Quran.

Here is an example;
If you let Gandhi read the Main Kempf or the most evil books available on earth 10 hours a day and every day for 40 years, it is not likely he will commit evils and violence. This is because Gandhi is born with a brain that is indifferent and will not be triggered by evil laden elements from any where. This will apply to others like Mother Theresa, the Pope, Dalai Lama and others of the same.

That is the reason why the 80% of Muslims who [if they read the Quran] are not likely at all to be influenced by the evil laden elements in the same and [supposedly] only one Quran. Note my DUCK-RABBIT explanation of human nature which you can experiment, test and experience yourself.

The point is the wise religions who understand human nature that 20% of humans are likely to be evil prone, will never include evil laden elements in their holy texts. If there are evil laden elements, these are overriden by an absolute moral maxim on killing and other evils.

The problem with the Quran is there are evil laden elements in the Quran and there is no absolute moral maxim to prevent the worst evil, i.e. killing another human being. The consequence is thus this; [29,051] was 29,047 earlier;



The above is merely one category [there are many others] of evil and violence committed by evil prone Muslims who are influenced and inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran.
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Old 08-18-2016, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,595,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The point still stands, in order to prove causation you have to prove that an expected and predictable increase of violence occurs as Qur'an obedience increases. Paradoxically in the region with the highest level of Qur'an reading (Mideast), the less importance the populace places on religion.
To prove causation all we need to do is to link the evil laden verses with the evil prone Muslims. This is proven by evil prone Muslims quoting the Quran [& Ahadith] to justify their acts [which are evil and violent].

Quote:
Oddly, the nations with the highest rates of violence by Muslims are in the region with the lowest level of Religious importance. While the Mideastern nations have nearly 100% Muslim populations the importance of Islam, in their lives is among the lowest in the world. There seems to be a reverse correlation. As the importance of Islam decreases the rate of violence increases.

Among Muslims in the Middle East and North Africa, solid majorities describe religion as very important. But overall the levels are not as high in the Middle East and North Africa as they are in sub-Saharan Africa, Southeast Asia and South Asia. About nine-in-ten Moroccan Muslims (89%) say religion is very important to them, followed by Muslims in Jordan (85%), the Palestinian territories (85%), Iraq (82%) and Tunisia (78%). Three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt also describe religion as very important in their lives, but significantly fewer in Lebanon (59%) say the same.

Commitment to Islam | Pew Research Center
My hypothesis is as follows;

1. 20% of all Muslims has active evil tendencies
2. The contain good elements and lots of evil elements.
3. The combination of elements 1 & 2 generate evils and violence by the evil prone Muslims.

From the above, we can deduced,
a. The countries with a large Muslims population will have a high level of evils and violence.
b. [as you stated] The countries which place Islam as important will have more evils and violence.
c. There will be lesser evils for the opposite of the above a. and b. scenarios.

The above is merely theory and a possibility.
However due to to many other factors that is not the consistent case at present with incident in terms of Nations.

However there is a correlation between a large number of Muslims who take Islam seriously and the number of evils and violence associated with them.

However, if you look at Saudi which has a high % of Muslims and take Islam very seriously, there is not much violence recorded within that country. However the high zeal of the evil prone Muslims from various sectors within that country are exporting and spreading evil and violence all over the world to reinforce Islam supremacy as proclaimed in the Quran.

In the recent years there is an increasing trend of Islamic related violence in Europe with its increasing numbers of Muslims over the recent years.

I don't believe it is effective to do a correlation within individual Nations.

What is most effective would be take the whole Muslims population in the world and note the degree of devotion to Islam by those Muslims and the Islamic pusle beating within the world.
One factor that can measure the degree of devotion and clingingness of Islam can be measured by the increasing trend of Muslimah wearing hijab and burga over the last 50 years.
Another is measurement of the increasing pulse of Islam is the pursuit of Sharia Laws all over the world.
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Old 08-19-2016, 02:25 AM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,048,185 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The point still stands, in order to prove causation you have to prove that an expected and predictable increase of violence occurs as Qur'an obedience increases. Paradoxically in the region with the highest level of Qur'an reading (Mideast), the less importance the populace places on religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
To prove causation all we need to do is to link the evil laden verses with the evil prone Muslims. This is proven by evil prone Muslims quoting the Quran [& Ahadith] to justify their acts [which are evil and violent].
You didn't even understand what you are responding to! People who do evil acts and violence do not quote verses of the Qur'an; they are ignorant about the Qur'an. You are not taking into account the fact that those who quote verses out of context do not do evil acts themselves but push the ignorant ones to do their dirty political work. They are not religious people but politicians. To them political war is jihad against the political war, Crusade, from Bush guided by his God. Religion/God is used for political ends by both sides. G.W. Bush had made it clear that he felt that God was telling him to invade Iraq.

Bush: God told me to invade Iraq | Americas | News | The Independent

This brings me to the spike mentioned here. Whenever there is sudden increase in violence there is a political cause behind it. There is no spike in the Qur'an verses on any one given day but there is often a certain spike in political activity that leads to spike in violence and evil actions.

You would be seen here as ignorant of reality if you dismiss the primary CAUSE to be of political nature in evil acts and violence.
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:13 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,595,051 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You didn't even understand what you are responding to! People who do evil acts and violence do not quote verses of the Qur'an; they are ignorant about the Qur'an. You are not taking into account the fact that those who quote verses out of context do not do evil acts themselves but push the ignorant ones to do their dirty political work. They are not religious people but politicians. To them political war is jihad against the political war, Crusade, from Bush guided by his God. Religion/God is used for political ends by both sides. G.W. Bush had made it clear that he felt that God was telling him to invade Iraq.

Bush: God told me to invade Iraq | Americas | News | The Independent

This brings me to the spike mentioned here. Whenever there is sudden increase in violence there is a political cause behind it. There is no spike in the Qur'an verses on any one given day but there is often a certain spike in political activity that leads to spike in violence and evil actions.

You would be seen here as ignorant of reality if you dismiss the primary CAUSE to be of political nature in evil acts and violence.
Again you are not in touch with reality.

Note the verses quoted by Bin Laden in his Letter to America.
As I had stated I am a voracious reader and knowledge explorer and I have read of many famous terrorists who quoted the Quran to justify their acts as a true Muslim's duty to please Allah. Before you deflect to claim the interpreted wrongly, note WHO ARE YOU to judge them on behalf of Allah.
Most of those who committed Islamic inspired evils and violence are not politicians but are zealous Muslims who are extremely motivated to please Allah to enable them to go Paradise expeditiously with greater rewards.

Those SOME evil prone Muslims will go on their own motivations on rely on any excuse [political, education, etc.] to carry out their Muslim duty to please God. The fact is political elements are so common within humanity and thus are very convenient good opportunities/excuses for them to please Allah to go the Paradise expeditiously with greater rewards. This extra motivations are all promised in the Quran by Allah.

IF Allah had not promised greater rewards for martyrdom in the Quran, I don't believe there will be Islamic-inspired suicide bombers who has no official affiliation to the political cause.
As a comparison, there are no promises of greater rewards in heaven in the Eastern religions and that is why we do not have Buddhists from all over the world killing innocent Chinese all over the world shouting Buddha-u-Akbar.
The above contrast is an obvious logical deduction the root cause of Islamic-inspired suicide bombers must be motivated mainly by the Quran.

Bush [a born again Christian] was motivated by his own selfish evil prone nature and that has nothing to do with Christianity, i.e. the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Quote me a glaring verse from the Gospels of Jesus where he exhorted Christians to fight and kill non-Christians if they are a threat to Christianity. If you cannot make sure you are very mindful of these when you deflect the issue to Bush again so as not to insult your own spiritual and intellectual intelligence.
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