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Old 07-30-2016, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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5:9 Allah hath promised those who believe and do good works: Theirs will be forgiveness and immense reward.

WaAAada Allahu allatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati lahum maghfiratun waajrun AAatheemun zoom
وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ لَهُم مَّغْفِرَةٌ وَأَجْرٌ عَظِيمٌ
waʿada وَعَدَ و ع د = promise
This word appears 117 times in the Pickthall translation but not all are related to Allah, some are related to Satan,

Question:
What is the implications with the concept of 'promise' in relation to Allah in this case?

My point is whenever there is a promise from one party it is often tied to a contract in exchange for the other promised deeds of the other party.

The term 'covenant' is mentioned 51 times in the Quran [Pickthall].
A covenant is basically a contract, i.e. a spiritual contract.

Therefore the 'promise' in relation as obligated from Allah must be tied up with the covenant a Muslim enter into with Allah.

Agree with the above views?
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Old 07-30-2016, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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What follows from the above explicit or implied covenant with Allah is the individual Muslim must comply with all the terms of the covenant within the Quran and no where else.

I note most Muslims are not aware they have entered into a covenant with Allah either explicitly or implicitly.

Agree with this view?
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Old 07-31-2016, 12:50 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,045,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
5:9 Allah hath promised those who believe and do good works: Theirs will be forgiveness and immense reward.

WaAAada Allahu allatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati lahum maghfiratun waajrun AAatheemun zoom
وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ لَهُم مَّغْفِرَةٌ وَأَجْرٌ عَظِيمٌ
waʿada وَعَدَ و ع د = promise
This word appears 117 times in the Pickthall translation but not all are related to Allah, some are related to Satan,

Question:
What is the implications with the concept of 'promise' in relation to Allah in this case?
That you (believers) will have forgiveness and immense reward for doing good acts in your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My point is whenever there is a promise from one party it is often tied to a contract in exchange for the other promised deeds of the other party.
Correct!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The term 'covenant' is mentioned 51 times in the Quran [Pickthall].
A covenant is basically a contract, i.e. a spiritual contract.
It is not a merely spiritual contract. It is more than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore the 'promise' in relation as obligated from Allah must be tied up with the covenant a Muslim enter into with Allah.

Agree with the above views?
Continuum,

What's stopping you from understanding 5:9? How about including 5:7-8 with this verse to know a bit more about the covenant? Please note that these are three of the latest verses revealed. By now the covenant was well established.

[5:7] And remember the favor of Allah on you and His covenant with which He bound you firmly, when you said: We have heard and we obey, and be conscious of Allah, surely Allah knows what is in the hearts.

[5:8] O you who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably; act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and be conscious of Allah; surely Allah is Aware of what you do.

[5:9] Allah has promised to those who believe and do good acts, they shall have forgiveness and immense reward.


Can't you still understand the covenant a Muslim enters with Allah in relation to the promise mentioned in 5:9?
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Old 07-31-2016, 03:24 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That you (believers) will have forgiveness and immense reward for doing good acts in your life.

Correct!

It is not a merely spiritual contract. It is more than that.

Continuum,

What's stopping you from understanding 5:9? How about including 5:7-8 with this verse to know a bit more about the covenant? Please note that these are three of the latest verses revealed. By now the covenant was well established.

[5:7] And remember the favor of Allah on you and His covenant with which He bound you firmly, when you said: We have heard and we obey, and be conscious of Allah, surely Allah knows what is in the hearts.

[5:8] O you who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably; act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and be conscious of Allah; surely Allah is Aware of what you do.

[5:9] Allah has promised to those who believe and do good acts, they shall have forgiveness and immense reward.


Can't you still understand the covenant a Muslim enters with Allah in relation to the promise mentioned in 5:9?
What in the world makes allah so dependent on the submission of humans?? I don't have the need to have anyone, not one person, submit and enslave themselves to me. It's just creepy. And we're talking about the supposed creator of the universe here! It makes no sense, unless allah is really sick in the head. Power mongers usually are.

What real difference would human submission make to such a being? If this thing existed, we would be of no notice to it. Instead, it is all concerned about power and menses and eternal torture and sex with children and all sorts of sick things. A being that can create EVERYTHING would have no such interests. It totally irrational to think otherwise.
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Old 07-31-2016, 03:42 PM
 
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The fourth post in this thread is completely off topic and designed to disrupt discussion of OP topic.
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Old 07-31-2016, 07:13 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The fourth post in this thread is completely off topic and designed to disrupt discussion of OP topic.
You don't like that I use common sense and cut to the chase. This whole thread is about allah's bizarre demands for submission and covenant with humans. That a creator of the universe would be demanding this and threatening endless torture for not doing it is just ridiculous.
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Old 07-31-2016, 09:59 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That you (believers) will have forgiveness and immense reward for doing good acts in your life.

Correct!


Continuum,

What's stopping you from understanding 5:9? How about including 5:7-8 with this verse to know a bit more about the covenant? Please note that these are three of the latest verses revealed. By now the covenant was well established.

[5:7] And remember the favor of Allah on you and His covenant with which He bound you firmly, when you said: We have heard and we obey, and be conscious of Allah, surely Allah knows what is in the hearts.

[5:8] O you who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably; act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and be conscious of Allah; surely Allah is Aware of what you do.

[5:9] Allah has promised to those who believe and do good acts, they shall have forgiveness and immense reward.


Can't you still understand the covenant a Muslim enters with Allah in relation to the promise mentioned in 5:9?
Btw, 5:9 is merely an example of the many verses that are related to the concept of the covenant within the Quran.
I understand 5:9 and the concepts of the covenant very well but I have brought it up for discussion for any one to understand it within the context of the whole Quran.

However I believe most Muslims do not understand the concept of the covenant within the Quran and that they have officially entered into a covenant with Allah either explicitly or implicitly.
It is not easy to understand the covenant, but the basic fact is to be a Muslim a person must enter into a contract [covenant] with Allah.

Quote:
It is not a merely spiritual contract. It is more than that.
It is basically a religious or spiritual contract [covenant] and nothing much more than it is a contract to deal with the fears of eternal death and the hope of eternal life as promised by Allah within the terms of the covenant.
As with any contract between two parties, each party must fulfil ALL the conditions within the contract, in this case within the Quran-Only, otherwise there will be shortfalls and penalties to be paid by the wronged party.
Therefore to be a good or true Muslim, one must comply with ALL [subject to one's capabilities] the terms within the Quran's 6,236 verses and no where else.

What is more than the above basic covenant are the terms and conditions of the contract [or covenant] that is "signed" by the Muslim.

What is more than the above is the details of the terms and conditions comprised good and evil laden elements within the covenant 'signed' with Allah that a Muslim must comply.

So my point is Allah has declared his promise and his obligations to fulfil what he had promised as a party to the contract [covenant], so it is up to the Muslim to fulfil his obligations and acts on ALL the terms and conditions [within his ability] within the 6,236 verses of the Quran.

Since the Quran 6,236 verses contain evil laden elements, it is only inevitable that the evil prone Muslims [20% or a pool 300 millions] who perceive 'DUCK' and act out those 'DUCK' verses as a true Muslim in fulfilling their obligations in accordance to the terms and conditions of the contract with the hope of receiving what is promised by Allah.
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Old 08-02-2016, 11:47 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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10:103. Then shall We save Our messengers and the believers [Muslims], in like manner (as of old). It is incumbent [an obligation] upon Us [Allah] to save believers [Muslims].
That incumbent, i.e. obligation is part of the promise within the covenant that Muslims entered into with Allah.

Since Allah's recognized his incumbency, thus a Muslim must also thoroughly understand fully the terms and conditions of the covenant that s/he is incumbent to fulfil.
The problem is the evil prone will be incumbent to fulfil obligations that turned out to be evil.
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Old 08-03-2016, 04:30 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,045,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Btw, 5:9 is merely an example of the many verses that are related to the concept of the covenant within the Quran.
I understand 5:9 and the concepts of the covenant very well but I have brought it up for discussion for any one to understand it within the context of the whole Quran.

However I believe most Muslims do not understand the concept of the covenant within the Quran and that they have officially entered into a covenant with Allah either explicitly or implicitly.
You are, I believe, correct about "most Muslims". Most do not understand the Qur'an.

Quote:
It is not easy to understand the covenant, but the basic fact is to be a Muslim a person must enter into a contract [covenant] with Allah.
The "basic fact" is that a Muslim (who actually submits) has already entered into a contract.

Quote:
It is basically a religious or spiritual contract [covenant] and nothing much more than it is a contract to deal with the fears of eternal death and the hope of eternal life as promised by Allah within the terms of the covenant.
No. It is basically a contract to live this life according to the purpose one came into existence.

Quote:
As with any contract between two parties, each party must fulfil ALL the conditions within the contract, in this case within the Quran-Only, otherwise there will be shortfalls and penalties to be paid by the wronged party.
It all depends on the terms and conditions of the contract which are already declared in the contract.

Quote:
Therefore to be a good or true Muslim, one must comply with ALL [subject to one's capabilities] the terms within the Quran's 6,236 verses and no where else.
Correct to an extent. Exception is that it is not "must comply" with ALL or else you go to hell but "must intend and try to comply" sincerely with the guidance if you are able to comply.

Quote:
What is more than the above basic covenant are the terms and conditions of the contract [or covenant] that is "signed" by the Muslim.

What is more than the above is the details of the terms and conditions comprised good and evil laden elements within the covenant 'signed' with Allah that a Muslim must comply.

So my point is Allah has declared his promise and his obligations to fulfil what he had promised as a party to the contract [covenant], so it is up to the Muslim to fulfil his obligations and acts on ALL the terms and conditions [within his ability] within the 6,236 verses of the Quran.

Since the Quran 6,236 verses contain evil laden elements, it is only inevitable that the evil prone Muslims [20% or a pool 300 millions] who perceive 'DUCK' and act out those 'DUCK' verses as a true Muslim in fulfilling their obligations in accordance to the terms and conditions of the contract with the hope of receiving what is promised by Allah.
There are no terms and conditions in this contract that require a Muslim to do evil acts. This is why I am not breaking the covenant the terms of which I understand well.
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Old 08-03-2016, 04:49 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,045,210 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
10:103. Then shall We save Our messengers and the believers [Muslims], in like manner (as of old). It is incumbent [an obligation] upon Us [Allah] to save believers [Muslims].
That incumbent, i.e. obligation is part of the promise within the covenant that Muslims entered into with Allah.

Since Allah's recognized his incumbency, thus a Muslim must also thoroughly understand fully the terms and conditions of the covenant that s/he is incumbent to fulfil.
The problem is the evil prone will be incumbent to fulfil obligations that turned out to be evil.
You misunderstand this verse. This verse is not about being "saved" on the Day of Judgment that is after the Resurrection but being saved in the end from the persecution whilst they were still alive.

Evil prone are not being saved but are blowing up themselves because they broke the covenant and lost the protection promised.
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