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Old 07-31-2016, 12:11 AM
 
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43:31. And they [infidels] say: If only this Qur’an had been revealed to some great men of the two towns
What are the implications of the above question?
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Old 07-31-2016, 02:10 AM
 
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وَقَالُوا (لَوْلَا )نُزِّلَ هَذَا الْقُرْءانُ عَلَى رَجُلٍ مِنَ الْقَرْيَتَيْنِ عَظِيمٍ ( surat ak-zekref )
Here the word Lola Important of interpretation

Condition symbols signifying nothing abstention to the presence of others, enters the two sentences: First nominal effective and the other for connecting a second failure of the first nor the presence of Justice rotted parish: What was
According to the letter question the meaning of the built-in display does not ask us to?: Ask us
For and for a: not for the vehicle of meaning that even so that does not prevent the second for the first says it not for Zaid to Hlkna any declined the occurrence of the loss for the presence of Zaid may be the sense of HLA, which many in the Qur'an Aziz and from the verse without Okhrtne to order soon}
Lexicon: Mukhtar Asahah
For this reason, the Shiites as referring to the Imam Ali bin Abi Talib explained
And for interpreting the words of the Murad infidels from the man in Mecca and Taif? However, most of them considered «Alwaleed bin invasive» man of Mecca, and «Urwah ibn Mas'ud» man Taif, though some have said that the threshold bin Rabia from Mecca, Habib bin Omar Althagafi from Taif.

However, it seems that those words was not the polytheists revolves around a particular person, but their goal was referring to a wealthy well-known, and has a famous clan.

Koran is shown conclusive answers to this type of Almtsafl superstitious thinking, and embodies the Islamic divine outlook completely, he says, first (the most important divide mercy
But the fact that it refers to the pastor and Rakkkh Ibn Nawfal
Because he belongs to the villages any clans
This was the pastor translates the Hebrew Bible into Arabic
He had an important role in the declaration of Muhammad
I think that the verse refers to him
He wrote interpretation makes reference to some of the names, but this is misleading in Koranic truths
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Old 07-31-2016, 03:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
43:31. And they [infidels] say: If only this Qur’an had been revealed to some great men of the two towns
What are the implications of the above question?
(43:31) They say: “Why was this Qur'an not sent down upon some great man from the two (main) cities?”30

30. The two towns: Makkah and Taif. What the disbelievers meant was: Had Allah really willed to send a messenger and intended to send down a book to him, He would have selected a great man from our these central cities for the purpose. For Allah could not have selected for this great mission a person who was born an orphan, who did not inherit much property, who passed his youth by tending goats, who even at present earned his living through business with his wife’s money, and who was neither the chief of a tribe nor the head of a family. Were not there well known chiefs like Walid bin Mughirah and Utbah bin Rabiah in Makkah, and nobles like Urwah bin Masud, Habib bin Amr, Kinanah bin Abdi Amr and Ibn Abd Yalil in Taif? This was their reasoning in the first instance, they were also not inclined to believe that a man could be a Messenger. But when the Quran refuted this misconception by argument and reason and they were told that in the past only men had come as Messengers and a man only could be a Messenger for the guidance of the people, and not another kind of being and the Messenger who came did not descend suddenly from heavens but were born in the same ordinary dwellings, walked about in the streets, had children and families and stood in need of food and drink (see (Surah An-Nahl, Ayat 43); (Surah Bani Israil, Ayats 94-95); (Surah Yousuf, Ayat 109); (Surah Al-Furqan, Ayats 7, 20); (Surah Al-Anbiya, Ayats 7-8); (Surah Ar-Raad, Ayat 38), they took this stand, saying: Well, even if a human being, he should be a big man, who should be wealthy, influential and awe-inspiring and having a large following. How could Muhammad bin Abdullah (peace be upon him) be fit for this appointment?

Surah Az-Zukhruf 43:26-32 - Towards Understanding the Quran - Quran Translation Commentary - Tafheem ul Quran
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Old 07-31-2016, 10:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
(43:31) They say: “Why was this Qur'an not sent down upon some great man from the two (main) cities?”30

30. The two towns: Makkah and Taif.
What the disbelievers meant was: Had Allah really willed to send a messenger and intended to send down a book to him, He would have selected a great man from our these central cities for the purpose. For Allah could not have selected for this great mission a person who was born an orphan, who did not inherit much property, who passed his youth by tending goats, who even at present earned his living through business with his wife’s money, and who was neither the chief of a tribe nor the head of a family.
Were not there well known chiefs like Walid bin Mughirah and Utbah bin Rabiah in Makkah, and nobles like Urwah bin Masud, Habib bin Amr, Kinanah bin Abdi Amr and Ibn Abd Yalil in Taif?

This was their reasoning in the first instance, they were also not inclined to believe that a man could be a Messenger.
But when the Quran refuted this misconception by argument and reason and they were told that in the past only men had come as Messengers and a man only could be a Messenger for the guidance of the people, and not another kind of being and the Messenger who came did not descend suddenly from heavens but were born in the same ordinary dwellings, walked about in the streets, had children and families and stood in need of food and drink (see (Surah An-Nahl, Ayat 43); (Surah Bani Israil, Ayats 94-95); (Surah Yousuf, Ayat 109); (Surah Al-Furqan, Ayats 7, 20); (Surah Al-Anbiya, Ayats 7-8); (Surah Ar-Raad, Ayat 38),

they took this stand, saying: Well, even if a human being, he should be a big man, who should be wealthy, influential and awe-inspiring and having a large following. How could Muhammad bin Abdullah (peace be upon him) be fit for this appointment?

Surah Az-Zukhruf 43:26-32 - Towards Understanding the Quran - Quran Translation Commentary - Tafheem ul Quran
Even at the present time if the following person who is
a person who was born an orphan, who did not inherit much property, who passed his youth by tending goats, who even at present earned his living through business with his wife’s money, and who was neither the chief of a tribe nor the head of a family.
suddenly appear from your neighborhood or community were to declare he is a messenger of God, would any normal modern person accept his as a messenger of God?

No way would any one accept such a person as a messenger of God.
They would send him to see a psychiatrist like this person;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg


The Quraishi when asking 'why not some great men' was merely to show some sense that there is no way they could accept a man who they has known since childhood with that sort of background could be a messenger of God.
In addition, Muhammad could not perform any convincing miracles like the prophets of old. If Muhammad had been able to perform real convincing miracles, then it is likely for the Quraishi to overlook his local background and many could have accepted him as a messenger of God.

This is why Muhammad had only about 100+/- followers from Mecca based on his unconvincing preaching but his followers expanded tremendously after he went to Medina and applied force to gain followers who were seduced by the loots and spoils of wars, not because of religion.

The other reasons as presented by the Quran is Muhammad as illiterate and poor was chosen to imply that an illiterate person could not have authored and recite from his own mind of what is presented in the Quran as we read it today. Therefore the Quran must be from God.
This argument is very shabby and can easily be refuted as evidenced by the many logical, rational and justified refutations of this point.
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Old 08-06-2016, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Even at the present time if the following person who is
a person who was born an orphan, who did not inherit much property, who passed his youth by tending goats, who even at present earned his living through business with his wife’s money, and who was neither the chief of a tribe nor the head of a family.
suddenly appear from your neighborhood or community were to declare he is a messenger of God, would any normal modern person accept his as a messenger of God?

No way would any one accept such a person as a messenger of God.
They would send him to see a psychiatrist like this person;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg


The Quraishi when asking 'why not some great men' was merely to show some sense that there is no way they could accept a man who they has known since childhood with that sort of background could be a messenger of God.
In addition, Muhammad could not perform any convincing miracles like the prophets of old. If Muhammad had been able to perform real convincing miracles, then it is likely for the Quraishi to overlook his local background and many could have accepted him as a messenger of God.

This is why Muhammad had only about 100+/- followers from Mecca based on his unconvincing preaching but his followers expanded tremendously after he went to Medina and applied force to gain followers who were seduced by the loots and spoils of wars, not because of religion.

The other reasons as presented by the Quran is Muhammad as illiterate and poor was chosen to imply that an illiterate person could not have authored and recite from his own mind of what is presented in the Quran as we read it today. Therefore the Quran must be from God.
This argument is very shabby and can easily be refuted as evidenced by the many logical, rational and justified refutations of this point.
Food for thought.

Your Reply is a very good explanation of 43:21 and is very probably how people interpreted it when it was revealed. It is a very strong argument as to why one should not accept the Qur'an as a divine revelation. Almost certainly this has been discussed by Muslims from the time it was revealed. Certainly some scholars have arrived at the same conclusion as you.


Surah 43 is one of the few longer Surat that was revealed as a single discourse and not as a series of Chapters (discourses) meaning. The message of 43 is in ayyats 1-8 and of such importance it was reiterated in ayyats 41-43 and 79-80. To understand ayyat 21 one must relate it to 1-8, 41-43 and 79-80

Using Pickthall's translation:

Ha. Mim. - 43:1 (Picktall) -


By the Scripture which maketh plain, - 43:2 (Picktall) -
Lo! We have appointed it a Lecture in Arabic that haply ye may understand. - 43:3 (Picktall)
And lo! in the Source of Decrees, which We possess, it is indeed sublime, decisive, - 43:4 (Picktall)
Shall We utterly ignore you because ye are a wanton folk? - 43:5 (Picktall)
How many a Prophet did We send among the men of old! - 43:6 (Picktall)
And never came there unto them a Prophet but they used to mock him. - 43:7 (Picktall)
Then we destroyed men mightier than these in prowess; and the example of the men of old hath gone (before them). - 43:8 (Picktall)

And if We take thee away, We surely shall take vengeance on them;43:41(Picktall)
Or (if) We show thee that wherewith We threaten them; for lo! We have complete command of them. - 43:42 (Picktall)
So hold thou fast to that which is inspired in thee. Lo! thou art on a right path. - 43:43 (Picktall)


Or do they determine any thing (against the Prophet)? Lo! We (also) are determining. - 43:79 (Picktall) -

Or deem they that We cannot hear their secret thoughts and private confidences? Nay, but Our envoys, present with them, do record. - 43:80 (Picktall) -


Surah 43 is a warning to the Quaryesh that in scripture (Torah) God(swt) destroyed people that refused to accept his Prophets(PBUT) and ayyat 21 tells specifically what they were doing.. The very same things had been said about other Prophets(PBUT) in the past and God(swt) destroyed those people.


Personally I find the Surah to be verification that the Qur'an is not a new Message, it is what has been revealed by all Prophets(PBUT) in the past.
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Old 08-06-2016, 11:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Food for thought.

Your Reply is a very good explanation of 43:21 and is very probably how people interpreted it when it was revealed. It is a very strong argument as to why one should not accept the Qur'an as a divine revelation. Almost certainly this has been discussed by Muslims from the time it was revealed. Certainly some scholars have arrived at the same conclusion as you.


Surah 43 is one of the few longer Surat that was revealed as a single discourse and not as a series of Chapters (discourses) meaning. The message of 43 is in ayyats 1-8 and of such importance it was reiterated in ayyats 41-43 and 79-80. To understand ayyat 21 one must relate it to 1-8, 41-43 and 79-80

Using Pickthall's translation:

Ha. Mim. - 43:1 (Picktall) -


By the Scripture which maketh plain, - 43:2 (Picktall) -
Lo! We have appointed it a Lecture in Arabic that haply ye may understand. - 43:3 (Picktall)
And lo! in the Source of Decrees, which We possess, it is indeed sublime, decisive, - 43:4 (Picktall)
Shall We utterly ignore you because ye are a wanton folk? - 43:5 (Picktall)
How many a Prophet did We send among the men of old! - 43:6 (Picktall)
And never came there unto them a Prophet but they used to mock him. - 43:7 (Picktall)
Then we destroyed men mightier than these in prowess; and the example of the men of old hath gone (before them). - 43:8 (Picktall)

And if We take thee away, We surely shall take vengeance on them;43:41(Picktall)
Or (if) We show thee that wherewith We threaten them; for lo! We have complete command of them. - 43:42 (Picktall)
So hold thou fast to that which is inspired in thee. Lo! thou art on a right path. - 43:43 (Picktall)


Or do they determine any thing (against the Prophet)? Lo! We (also) are determining. - 43:79 (Picktall) -

Or deem they that We cannot hear their secret thoughts and private confidences? Nay, but Our envoys, present with them, do record. - 43:80 (Picktall) -


Surah 43 is a warning to the Quaryesh that in scripture (Torah) God(swt) destroyed people that refused to accept his Prophets(PBUT) and ayyat 21 tells specifically what they were doing.. The very same things had been said about other Prophets(PBUT) in the past and God(swt) destroyed those people.


Personally I find the Surah to be verification that the Qur'an is not a new Message, it is what has been revealed by all Prophets(PBUT) in the past.
Noted your points but that is not related to my point of bringing up 43:31.

All over the Quran, it is claimed that the Quran is a reminder and a warning for mankind to accept Islam [only one god and Muhammad is the final messenger] or else mankind will be destroyed like the infidels of old as there are evidence of such destructions all over. So that such a warning is included in Surah 43 is not a special feature of that chapter.

That the Quran is not something new and confirm the old scriptures [the uncorrupted versions only] is also reported all over the Quran.

However, I believe 43:31 do not expose some background information as mentioned above to the emergence of the Quran if it is claimed it was recited to Muhammad.
43:31. And they [infidels] say: If only this Qur’an had been revealed to some great men of the two towns
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Old 08-07-2016, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Noted your points but that is not related to my point of bringing up 43:31.

All over the Quran, it is claimed that the Quran is a reminder and a warning for mankind to accept Islam [only one god and Muhammad is the final messenger] or else mankind will be destroyed like the infidels of old as there are evidence of such destructions all over. So that such a warning is included in Surah 43 is not a special feature of that chapter.

That the Quran is not something new and confirm the old scriptures [the uncorrupted versions only] is also reported all over the Quran.

However, I believe 43:31 do not expose some background information as mentioned above to the emergence of the Quran if it is claimed it was recited to Muhammad.
43:31. And they [infidels] say: If only this Qur’an had been revealed to some great men of the two towns
I think one has to first understand why 43:31 was even revealed. It is an interesting question though. Why wasn't the Qur'an revealed to a prominent educated person?

(BTW you will find very few Muslims that would consider all non-Muslims to be infidels, it is an over used word left over from the Rudolph Valentino movies ) (Ambrose Bierce defined infidel as "A Muslim in New York and a Christian in Constantinople")

But looking at 3 translations of 43:31 in accompaniment with 43:32 (Keep in mind an ayyat is not necessarily a complete sentence. It is the translators that decided to present them as such, The Written Qur'an is simply a tool to assist in memorization of the Recitation. An ayyat is to be recited in a single breath.)

And they say, too, “Why was not this Qur’an bestowed from on high on some great man of the two cities?” [28] - 43:31 (Asad)
But is it they who distribute thy Sustainer’s grace? [Nay, as] it is We who distribute their means of livelihood among them in the life of this world, and raise some of them by degrees above others, to the end that they might avail themselves of one another’s help - [so, too, it is We who bestow gifts of the spirit upon whomever We will]: and this thy Sustainer’s grace is better than all [the worldly wealth] that they may amass. - 43:32 (Asad)


Also, they say: "Why is not this Qur'an sent down to some leading man in either of the two (chief) cities?" - 43:31 (Y. Ali)
Is it they who would portion out the Mercy of thy Lord? It is We Who portion out between them their livelihood in the life of this world: and We raise some of them above others in ranks, so that some may command work from others. But the Mercy of thy Lord is better than the (wealth) which they amass. - 43:32 (Y. Ali)

And they say: If only this Qur'an had been revealed to some great man of the two towns? - 43:31 (Picktall)
Is it they who apportion their Lord's mercy? We have apportioned among them their livelihood in the life of the world, and raised some of them above others in rank that some of them may take labor from others; and the mercy of thy Lord is better than (the wealth) that they amass. - 43:32 (Picktall)


It should be clear that the ayyats together is a warning and admonishment to the Quaryesh of Mecca, who the Surah was directed to. It points out that the "nations elite" are only so by the Will of Allaah(swt) The surah was revealed after an attempt to assassinate Muhammad(saws) was made.
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Old 08-07-2016, 04:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quraishi when asking 'why not some great men' was merely to show some sense that there is no way they could accept a man who they has known since childhood with that sort of background could be a messenger of God.
Even Moses or Jesus wasn't accepted at first. Accepting Muhammad would have been the end of Quraish power in business. In the end they had to accept him. The fools could have accepted him without wars and persecution of his followers.
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I think one has to first understand why 43:31 was even revealed. It is an interesting question though. Why wasn't the Qur'an revealed to a prominent educated person?

(BTW you will find very few Muslims that would consider all non-Muslims to be infidels, it is an over used word left over from the Rudolph Valentino movies ) (Ambrose Bierce defined infidel as "A Muslim in New York and a Christian in Constantinople")

But looking at 3 translations of 43:31 in accompaniment with 43:32 (Keep in mind an ayyat is not necessarily a complete sentence. It is the translators that decided to present them as such, The Written Qur'an is simply a tool to assist in memorization of the Recitation. An ayyat is to be recited in a single breath.)

And they say, too, “Why was not this Qur’an bestowed from on high on some great man of the two cities?” [28] - 43:31 (Asad)
But is it they who distribute thy Sustainer’s grace? [Nay, as] it is We who distribute their means of livelihood among them in the life of this world, and raise some of them by degrees above others, to the end that they might avail themselves of one another’s help - [so, too, it is We who bestow gifts of the spirit upon whomever We will]: and this thy Sustainer’s grace is better than all [the worldly wealth] that they may amass. - 43:32 (Asad)


Also, they say: "Why is not this Qur'an sent down to some leading man in either of the two (chief) cities?" - 43:31 (Y. Ali)
Is it they who would portion out the Mercy of thy Lord? It is We Who portion out between them their livelihood in the life of this world: and We raise some of them above others in ranks, so that some may command work from others. But the Mercy of thy Lord is better than the (wealth) which they amass. - 43:32 (Y. Ali)

And they say: If only this Qur'an had been revealed to some great man of the two towns? - 43:31 (Picktall)
Is it they who apportion their Lord's mercy? We have apportioned among them their livelihood in the life of the world, and raised some of them above others in rank that some of them may take labor from others; and the mercy of thy Lord is better than (the wealth) that they amass. - 43:32 (Picktall)

It should be clear that the ayyats together is a warning and admonishment to the Quaryesh of Mecca, who the Surah was directed to. It points out that the "nations elite" are only so by the Will of Allaah(swt) The surah was revealed after an attempt to assassinate Muhammad(saws) was made.
Noted your point but that is not the point I wanted to focus on.

There are many other similar verses where Muhammad was accused as being the local guy who is known to most and how can the locals accept him when they know all his weaknesses and he was not able to produce miracles at all to substantiate his divine association.

Note re Noah
23:33. And the chieftains of his folk [infidels], who disbelieved and denied the meeting of the Hereafter [resurrection], and whom We had made soft in the life of the world, said: This is only a mortal like you, who eateth of that whereof ye eat and drinketh of that ye drink.
23:34. [Chieftains said] If ye were to obey a mortal like yourselves, ye surely would be losers.
True or not, at least the story goes Noah was tasked to built the ark and God saved him and all believers while all non-believers then were killed and destroyed. This lent credibility to Noah's divine credence.

Re Moses and Aaron;
23:47. And they [Pharaoh et al] said: Shall we put faith in two mortals like ourselves, and whose folk are servile unto us?
It is stated by God that Moses performed miracles, thus is given divine credence.

As for Muhammad, what has he to show as a local guy amongst themselves.
Muhammad did not has any miracles to show except claiming the Quran itself is a miracle which is shabby.
The point is by the 7th century is was not easy to dupe the local people with stories of miracles as compared to Jesus' time 2000 years ago and Moses' time which is perhaps >3000 years ago.

So 43:31 revealed Muhammad was merely a local guy known by the Qureshi for 40 years and there is no way he was inspired divinely.
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Old 08-08-2016, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Noted your point but that is not the point I wanted to focus on.

There are many other similar verses where Muhammad was accused as being the local guy who is known to most and how can the locals accept him when they know all his weaknesses and he was not able to produce miracles at all to substantiate his divine association.

Note re Noah
23:33. And the chieftains of his folk [infidels], who disbelieved and denied the meeting of the Hereafter [resurrection], and whom We had made soft in the life of the world, said: This is only a mortal like you, who eateth of that whereof ye eat and drinketh of that ye drink.
23:34. [Chieftains said] If ye were to obey a mortal like yourselves, ye surely would be losers.
True or not, at least the story goes Noah was tasked to built the ark and God saved him and all believers while all non-believers then were killed and destroyed. This lent credibility to Noah's divine credence.

Re Moses and Aaron;
23:47. And they [Pharaoh et al] said: Shall we put faith in two mortals like ourselves, and whose folk are servile unto us?
It is stated by God that Moses performed miracles, thus is given divine credence.

As for Muhammad, what has he to show as a local guy amongst themselves.
Muhammad did not has any miracles to show except claiming the Quran itself is a miracle which is shabby.
The point is by the 7th century is was not easy to dupe the local people with stories of miracles as compared to Jesus' time 2000 years ago and Moses' time which is perhaps >3000 years ago.

So 43:31 revealed Muhammad was merely a local guy known by the Qureshi for 40 years and there is no way he was inspired divinely.
As we are not to pay Homage to Muhammad(saws) or any other Human, we do not dwell upon the miracles he performed.

But some that have been reported by witnesses:

Miracles of the Holy Prophet Muhammad

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracles_of_Muhammad

Resulullah.org | The Master of the Universe
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