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Old 08-01-2016, 02:13 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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18:80. And as for the lad, his parents were believers and We feared lest he [an infidel] should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.
In the above the lad was not waging war on the parents but Khidar slew him merely based on fears of the lad as disbelievers may kill his believer parents.
So Khalif invocation of 60:8-9 is useless and toothless.

This is one example where evil prone Muslims will kill disbelievers merely based on their subjective feelings and fears upon the slightest perceived provocations because Allah condone such an act in the Quran.

Now if the Quran has imposed an absolute moral maxim Khidar would have to think a hundred times to at least rely on clear evidence before he kill any innocent person.
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Old 08-01-2016, 02:40 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
18:80. And as for the lad, his parents were believers and We feared lest he [an infidel] should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.
In the above the lad was not waging war on the parents but Khidar slew him merely based on fears of the lad as disbelievers may kill his believer parents.
So Khalif invocation of 60:8-9 is useless and toothless.
60:8-9 has nothing to do with Moses or Khidar. 60:8-9 put a stop to any Muslim acting like Khidar or Moses (who also had killed a man).

Quote:
This is one example where evil prone Muslims will kill disbelievers merely based on their subjective feelings and fears upon the slightest perceived provocations because Allah condone such an act in the Quran.
Here, you link a Moses story to evil prone but why don't you link Moses story of 'slew one slew mankind' to the evil prone? Some times you tend to see it as duck and sometimes rabbit, as the situation suits you, but never both together.

Quote:
Now if the Quran has imposed an absolute moral maxim Khidar would have to think a hundred times to at least rely on clear evidence before he kill any innocent person.
That would have meant Allah could not kill any innocent person ever.

Seriously, absolute moral maxim has never been practiced in the history of mankind during the war times when unbelievers would be killing the believers.
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Old 08-01-2016, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
60:8-9 has nothing to do with Moses or Khidar. 60:8-9 put a stop to any Muslim acting like Khidar or Moses (who also had killed a man).
The story of Moses and Khidar show that 60:8-9 is toothless.
Khidar is representing Allah and he killed merely based on a speculation and not because the lad had waged war against the parents. If Khidar was supposed to be kind and just, then Khidar should not have killed the lad. merely based on speculations.

The evil prone Muslims could easily followed Khidar example in principle, i.e. kill any one who they think are a threat to believers. The evidence is so glaring, i.e.



Quote:
Here, you link a Moses story to evil prone but why don't you link Moses story of 'slew one slew mankind' to the evil prone? Some times you tend to see it as duck and sometimes rabbit, as the situation suits you, but never both together.
Note the 'kill one kill all' in 5:32 is very conditional and contexture. It is not an absolute moral maxim.

Quote:
That would have meant Allah could not kill any innocent person ever.

Seriously, absolute moral maxim has never been practiced in the history of mankind during the war times when unbelievers would be killing the believers.
That is morally right, i.e. Allah will not kill any innocent.

Long ago when humans were near beasts with no sense of Morality [say >5,000 to 10,000 years ago], it is true there was no way absolute moral maxim would have much effect, even if any one of high moral can think of it. Surely a God can think and reason out an absolute moral maxim 10,000 years ago, but because of human nature then, it was impractical for the implementation of an absolute moral maxim.

But later as human progress with higher faculty of reasons and wisdom, it was time for God or humans to implement morality on the basis of absolute moral maxims.
This is where the Eastern religions and Judaism [later Christianity] introduced morality on the basis of absolute moral maxims to manage the humans who were more beasts than being humans.
This is at least with the hope of a starting point towards future progress and human improved with their wisdom.

At some point the religionists [Eastern religions, Judaism, etc] rely on an absolute moral maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' issued as an ultimate threat by God - the all powerful - to control incessant killings. This sure morality by threat surely must have helped but not totally because there is no way to control the hardcore cases who are prone to killing.

However what is unfortunate and regrettable is Allah of the Quran and Islam opened a door with 'Thou Shall Not Kill' with ifs and made that maxim conditional. This is why SOME evil prone Muslims are influenced and inspired to kill non-Muslims. Note the evidence



So you are wrong, the absolute moral maxim 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' is applicable at all times, even in war, etc. so that soldier do not kill blindly according to their own personal whims, lust and impulses. Obviously in an inevitable war [evil itself] the duty of the soldier is to kill in accordance to the rules of war.

Waiving the absolute moral maxims will invite the terrible evils of wars like those committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are influenced by evil laden elements in the Quran, i.e. the genocides, mass rapes, tortures, ransoms, slavery etc.

As human progress further in the future the concept of absolute moral maxim is imperative to promote effective morality and ethics in all aspects of humanity.
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Old 08-02-2016, 05:15 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The story of Moses and Khidar show that 60:8-9 is toothless.
Totally wrong thinking!

None of the Muslims is Khidar. Khidar had been told by Allah what was going to happen. Muslims today do not know what is going to happen with anyone tomorrow.

Quote:
Khidar is representing Allah and he killed merely based on a speculation and not because the lad had waged war against the parents.
You do not know what you are saying here. Muslims do not represent Allah. Think of it, man!

Quote:
The evil prone Muslims could easily followed Khidar example in principle, i.e. kill any one who they think are a threat to believers.
Three points:

1. If Khidar represented Allah, he knew what Allah knew. Muslims do not know what Allah knows.

2. Muslims cannot follow example of Khidar because they do not know that Khidar knew.

3. Khidar did not kill those who were threat to the believers but he did it to save at least the believing parents instead of all of them (parents and the lad) being killed soon afterwards by the unbelieving people.

Quote:
That is morally right, i.e. Allah will not kill any innocent.
Allah kills everyone He gives life. You will be killed by Allah one day, and so will I. Run as far as you like; He will certainly kill you one day. You are sitting duck for Allah.
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Old 08-02-2016, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Totally wrong thinking!
None of the Muslims is Khidar. Khidar had been told by Allah what was going to happen. Muslims today do not know what is going to happen with anyone tomorrow.
Point here is 80% of good Muslims will not be influenced by that specific Principles for the Story of Moses and Khidar. However some evil prone Muslims will naturally be aware and be influenced by it. [in particular evil prone scholars who will influence evil prone believers]

Quote:
You do not know what you are saying here. Muslims do not represent Allah. Think of it, man!
There is nothing wrong is that in the way as ALL messengers are representatives, agents [or slave] of Allah.

Quote:
Three points:

1. If Khidar represented Allah, he knew what Allah knew. Muslims do not know what Allah knows.

2. Muslims cannot follow example of Khidar because they do not know that Khidar knew.

3. Khidar did not kill those who were threat to the believers but he did it to save at least the believing parents instead of all of them (parents and the lad) being killed soon afterwards by the unbelieving people.
You are inventing and speculating here.
You can keep saying, Muslims cannot do this and that. But WHO ARE YOU to judge what Allah said in the Quran?

There is no mentioned of actual intention of the lad to kill his own parents.

The fact is such guessing and open-ended examples open room for the evil-prone to view their 'DUCK or RABBIT' perspective and act out the deeds in their sincere belief as a true Muslim which in reality turn out to be evil to humanity.

Quote:
Allah kills everyone He gives life. You will be killed by Allah one day, and so will I. Run as far as you like; He will certainly kill you one day. You are sitting duck for Allah.
I don't think "you" a good Muslim [as claimed] should attribute such an evil term as "kill" and cruel phrases to Allah [the supposedly compassionate]. Your above is the kind of feelings and intention evil prone Muslims has on non-Muslims, i.e. kill them [non-Muslims].
Allah stated in the Quran Allah gives life [temporary] in this world to humans and Allah will stop [take away] this worldly like and replace with eternal life in Paradise.
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Old 08-04-2016, 02:48 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,650,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The story of Moses and Khidar show that 60:8-9 is toothless..
it was a mercy from Allah to the toothless to have him killed
because toothless when they die they never go to Hell
but if this toothless become adult and died without believing in the god who created him then hell will be in Hell.
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Old 08-04-2016, 03:35 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
it was a mercy from Allah to the toothless to have him killed
because toothless when they die they never go to Hell
but if this toothless become adult and died without believing in the god who created him then hell will be in Hell.
I am sure Continuum can't go that far into Allah's wisdom.
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Old 08-06-2016, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
it was a mercy from Allah to the toothless to have him killed
because toothless when they die they never go to Hell
but if this toothless become adult and died without believing in the god who created him then hell will be in Hell.
You are way off the point.
"Toothless" in this case as a metaphor is applied to the verse not the person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
I am sure Continuum can't go that far into Allah's wisdom.
You are willing to insult your own intelligence [failure to understand truth_teller is off the point] to be bias towards your own religion. This is the kind of negativity and liability that are attached to blinded-believers.
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Old 08-08-2016, 01:53 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,650,379 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
18:80. And as for the lad, his parents were believers and We feared lest he [an infidel] should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief..
it was a mercy from Allah to the lad to have him killed
because lad when they die they never go to Hell
but if this lad become adult and died without believing in the god who created him then hell will be in Hell.
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