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Old 08-07-2016, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Addressing just the last paragraph:

...<snip?
There are considerable overriding maxims in the Qur'an and Ahadith that condemn abuses of what you call the "Evil Verses" Yes there are people that abuse the Qur'an for personal or political reasons. Currently the largest abuser is ISIS and that is a political movement to form a single Nation out of Iraq, Syria and Yemen with possible goals of expanding into Saudi and Iran. ISIS is not a religious movement, it it a political faction misusing Islam to gain support.

Looking at your favorite counter you may come to the conclusion that nearly all of those acts were committed by ISIS or ISIS supporters. (including the precursor to ISIS, al-Qaida)
Note your quotations;

Quote:
Qur’an 6:151 says, “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.” (i.e. murder is forbidden but the death penalty imposed by the state for a crime is permitted).

5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”
From a higher perspective the above quotes are not absolute moral maxims in relation to the most critical evil, i.e. killing.
Note the 'save' and 'unless' which are conditions.
Therefore the above quotes are conditional maxims, i.e. not absolute.

There are no overriding absolute moral maxims on 'killing' in the Quran.
Whatever that is related to 'killing' in the Quran is conditional and open-ended.
This leaves room for evil prone Muslims to on rampage of killing at the slightest provocations.
The proofs are in the statistic counter [evidence] I posted regularly.

Note this counter; [28,971]


To be more precise [if we deliberate into the details and more seriously] the above statistics need further analysis to establish the range of degrees they are related to the evil laden elements in the Quran.
Some may have a low relation to the Quran while others are highly attributable to the verses in the Quran but the point is all [if not 100% but at least 90%] are related to the Quran's evil laden elements triggering the natural evil prone Muslims.

Note my favorite counter is merely one class of evils committed by evil prone Muslims, i.e. from incidents with deaths. However there are tons of evils committed by evil prone Muslims where there is no deaths, i.e. mass rapes, oppression, terrible violence and sufferings, etc.

From the above, it is critical the majority of good Muslims must recognize the fact that the Quran [in part, not whole] has something to do with the terrible evils and violence committed by some evil prone Muslims.
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Old 08-07-2016, 11:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Note my point is there are no evil laden verses in the Qur'an or else I would be complying with them. You prove my above point.
You keep denying the reality and existence of the DUCK-RABBIT elements within human nature.

Note this fact again;
Not all people exposed to violence in movies, books, ideologies, various media are triggered to commit violence. It is only a small percentile who are evil prone who will be influenced and inspired to commit terrible evils and violence in society.
This is an undeniable inference.

The Quran contain a 'tsunami' of evil laden elements. It is only the evil prone Muslims who are naturally born with an active evil tendencies who are catalyzed, influenced and inspired to commit terrible evils and violence.
The proof of this is so evident! i.e.




Quote:
And your claim is based on something that you are not sure about as the terms seem to be ambiguous and vague to you.
You missed my point. It is not me who is not sure of the terms. I fully understand the verses in the Quran and I am fully aware the good Muslims will see and perceive one view [good] while the evil prone will perceive the same verses from the same Quran in accordance to their inclinations which turned out to be evil.

Quote:
I say the verses are clear, not ambiguous or vague. That's why it is clear to me that there are no evil laden verses but justice laden verses. No point in you arguing with me about something you are unable to understand clearly by your own admission.
Here is one exercise again to see the ignorance and weakness of your point.



Take a look at the above image.
What you do see?
On first impression you are likely to see one thing, say X.
Tell me what you see.

If some one else say they see Y in the above, then you will insist they are a fool to see Y when it is so clear to you that you are seeing Y.

If some one tell you there are image of X and Y, then you will insist they are mad because it is SO CLEAR to you there is only X that you see.

The principles of the above exercise is the same with the "evil laden verses" in the Quran.
For those same verses in the Quran;
You see them as good justice laden verses - say X
On other hand when the evil prone Muslims read the SAME verses,
they will see them as good justice laden verses as well, say Y.

When you act out X deeds, they turn out to be good to humanity.
But when the evil prone act of Y deeds, they turn out to be terrible evils and violence to humanity.

Get the point.
Both are reading exactly the same verses from the same Quran but the consequences are different, i.e. your acts are good while the evil prone Muslims acts are evil and violent.
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Old 08-08-2016, 02:16 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You keep denying the reality and existence of the DUCK-RABBIT elements within human nature.
You keep denying that humans have potential to do good as well as evil. They need to be educated to control their Self (Nafs).
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Old 08-08-2016, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note your quotations;



From a higher perspective the above quotes are not absolute moral maxims in relation to the most critical evil, i.e. killing.
Note the 'save' and 'unless' which are conditions.
Therefore the above quotes are conditional maxims, i.e. not absolute.

There are no overriding absolute moral maxims on 'killing' in the Quran.
Whatever that is related to 'killing' in the Quran is conditional and open-ended.
This leaves room for evil prone Muslims to on rampage of killing at the slightest provocations.
The proofs are in the statistic counter [evidence] I posted regularly.

Note this counter; [28,971]


To be more precise [if we deliberate into the details and more seriously] the above statistics need further analysis to establish the range of degrees they are related to the evil laden elements in the Quran.
Some may have a low relation to the Quran while others are highly attributable to the verses in the Quran but the point is all [if not 100% but at least 90%] are related to the Quran's evil laden elements triggering the natural evil prone Muslims.

Note my favorite counter is merely one class of evils committed by evil prone Muslims, i.e. from incidents with deaths. However there are tons of evils committed by evil prone Muslims where there is no deaths, i.e. mass rapes, oppression, terrible violence and sufferings, etc.

From the above, it is critical the majority of good Muslims must recognize the fact that the Quran [in part, not whole] has something to do with the terrible evils and violence committed by some evil prone Muslims.
While I believe I understand where you are coming from something that you may not be aware of. Every Muslim is responsible for his own doings. We do not have the option of saying "We were Misled" We have a personal responsibility to evaluate every action we do prior to doing it. We are not to blindly follow any religious instructor or scholar blindly, we are to evaluate the morality of our actions through all available sources, which if need be can be past scripture that is not specifically contradictory to the Qur'an.If we commit an evil act because of something we misinterpret in the Qur'an, it is our responsibility for not evaluating it from all available sources.

If a person commits an evil act because of any commentary we have made, we are equally accountable for that evil. A Muslim has the obligation to verify the morality of every action we make, not just in terms of the Qur'an but in accordance with local laws and customs. If we feel the laws or morals of a nation prevent us from performing Islam it is our obligation to leave that nation or not enter it to begin with. However, if we choose to remain in such nation, we are obligated to abide by their laws.

Obeying the law in non-Muslim countries | IslamToday - English

Obeying the law in non-muslim countries | Faith in Allah

Obeying the Law of the Land in the West | daruliftaa.com
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Old 08-08-2016, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While I believe I understand where you are coming from something that you may not be aware of.

Every Muslim is responsible for his own doings. We do not have the option of saying "We were Misled" We have a personal responsibility to evaluate every action we do prior to doing it. We are not to blindly follow any religious instructor or scholar blindly, we are to evaluate the morality of our actions through all available sources, which if need be can be past scripture that is not specifically contradictory to the Qur'an.If we commit an evil act because of something we misinterpret in the Qur'an, it is our responsibility for not evaluating it from all available sources.

If a person commits an evil act because of any commentary we have made, we are equally accountable for that evil. A Muslim has the obligation to verify the morality of every action we make, not just in terms of the Qur'an but in accordance with local laws and customs. If we feel the laws or morals of a nation prevent us from performing Islam it is our obligation to leave that nation or not enter it to begin with. However, if we choose to remain in such nation, we are obligated to abide by their laws.

Obeying the law in non-Muslim countries | IslamToday - English

Obeying the law in non-muslim countries | Faith in Allah

Obeying the Law of the Land in the West | daruliftaa.com
I note you do not understand my point.

To get to my point, let do this exercise;
Take a look at the image below;



There are two things that image.
It is likely you will see only one thing.
So what do you see in that image?
Appreciate your answer.
{I will inform of the two images therein later}

The point is there are two things [X and Y] within one image.
Which mean there are two truths within the same source.
The only thing [say X] that you are able to see is the truth to you.
Perhaps 80% of people will see the same thing [X] as you.

But 20% of people may see the other thing [say Y] from the same image you are seeing.
To these 20% the thing Y that they see is the truth to them.

You may even blame Y for not seeing the truth because to you the truth is definitely X.
The 20% will blame you for not seeing the truth because to them the truth is definitely Y.

Quote:
Every Muslim is responsible for his own doings. We do not have the option of saying "We were Misled"
We have a personal responsibility to evaluate every action we do prior to doing it. We are not to blindly follow any religious instructor or scholar blindly, we are to evaluate the morality of our actions through all available sources, which if need be can be past scripture that is not specifically contradictory to the Qur'an. If we commit an evil act because of something we misinterpret in the Qur'an, it is our responsibility for not evaluating it from all available sources.
Now what is happening is based on the above exercise I have proven [actual experiment on self] to you that the same source of information can generate two valid truths to different groups of people.

The 80% of moderate Muslims has done their own best evaluations and came up with their own set of truths.

The 20% of evil prone Muslims has also done their very best evaluations [not blindly] and came up with their own set of truths which they serious believe are true.

The point is both groups has done their very best and perceive their respective truths and they are not wrong at all. Note the experiment above where both perceptions from the same source are truths and no one is actually wrong.

In this case we cannot blame the two groups of humans who perceive their respective truth.
The fault is on the one who prepare the source of the information for not being precise enough which open up for ambiguity.
In this case the root cause of the issue is from the Quran which enable the two groups of human beings to perceive two truths where one truth is loaded with evil elements that influenced and inspire the evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-08-2016 at 09:48 PM..
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Old 08-08-2016, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You keep denying that humans have potential to do good as well as evil. They need to be educated to control their Self (Nafs).
I explained my points in details but you ignore them when countering.
Show where I am wrong in my presentation instead of throwing empty accusations.
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Old 08-09-2016, 12:18 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I explained my points in details but you ignore them when countering.
Show where I am wrong in my presentation instead of throwing empty accusations.
You do not take into account the potential of each human being to do good as well as to do evil.

If you want them to do only good but not evil, you must educate them to control their Self that does the evil.

The Qur'an does just that; educate.

The failure to learn is on the part of those who do not try to understand.
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Old 08-09-2016, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You do not take into account the potential of each human being to do good as well as to do evil.

If you want them to do only good but not evil, you must educate them to control their Self that does the evil.

The Qur'an does just that; educate.

The failure to learn is on the part of those who do not try to understand.
Again you are ignorant of human nature.

I agree ALL humans has the potential to do good and evil.
I agree ALL humans also has the potential to be educated.

But the fact is a percentile of humans will be not be able to realize the above potential due to various natural reasons.
For example ALL humans has the potential for 20/20 vision and normal color vision, but it is a fact that some % of humans are born with color blindness and that cannot be cured easily. Take a look and read up, you will note not all human can realize and actualize their physical potentials.

It is the same for the human mental potential. There are some humans who are born with the natural incapability to increase their potential as with normal people. Note the autistic child and many other mentally handicap people who cannot be educated like the normal average person. Note I have done extensive research in this areas and subjects. You??

I believe it is a good estimate to say that 20% of all human cannot be fully educated to normal potential of the average person. You are familiar with formal education and you will note in every school or everywhere there will be a % of people who will have problem with learning.

It is the same with a % of people who will never ever see what is the other thing in this image!



A clue to the above;
I believe most people will see a frog in the above image, but they will not be able to see the other thing [?] unless someone draw it out and show them.

As with education and controlling the impulses of the Self, it is the same. There will always be a minority % [percentile] of people who are born with a handicap to control their impulses and they will not improve regardless of how much education you throw at them or even force them with threats.

It is the same with your hardcore inability to learn [educate yourself] more about human nature and you have a hard time understand [btw, not agree] my points to even disagree with it. You are blurr most of the time on many critical points I presented for arguments and discussions.

So your hypothesis is wrong because of your ignorance of human nature which in reality always come in degrees.

That is the theory and inherent limitations of education has on ALL human beings.

Now the problem is the spiritual education from the Quran is merely kindergarten level and unfortunately polluted with much evil laden elements.
Instead of educating people to be good, the evil laden elements corrupt the minds of the percentile [20% pool] of evil prone and influenced them to commit terrible evils and violence.

If you are serious about the subject of controlling the impulses of the Self [Nafs re Islam] you should do a thorough research on this subject within other non-Islam perspectives. Then you will note, in comparison, Islam's control of impulses and its methods are kindergarten levels only.
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Old 08-13-2016, 03:06 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Again you are ignorant of human nature.

I agree ALL humans has the potential to do good and evil.
I agree ALL humans also has the potential to be educated.

But the fact is a percentile of humans will be not be able to realize the above potential due to various natural reasons.
For example ALL humans has the potential for 20/20 vision and normal color vision, but it is a fact that some % of humans are born with color blindness and that cannot be cured easily. Take a look and read up, you will note not all human can realize and actualize their physical potentials.
You are talking nonsense!

ALL humans are born with potential to do good as well as potential to do evil. That's the human nature!

ALL humans need education to make progress and to understand not only the world around them but their own Self.

There is no human who can't learn.

ALL humans can realize their good potential as well as their evil potential. All they need is education to realize their potential. You are blind if you can't see that where education is good people realize their good potential well but where education system is poor people do not realize good potential but are open to realize their evil potential. I have experience of both societies and am speaking from experience rather than speaking just philosophically.
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Old 08-13-2016, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I note you do not understand my point.

To get to my point, let do this exercise;
Take a look at the image below;



There are two things that image.
It is likely you will see only one thing.
So what do you see in that image?
Appreciate your answer.
{I will inform of the two images therein later}

The point is there are two things [X and Y] within one image.
Which mean there are two truths within the same source.
The only thing [say X] that you are able to see is the truth to you.
Perhaps 80% of people will see the same thing [X] as you.

But 20% of people may see the other thing [say Y] from the same image you are seeing.
To these 20% the thing Y that they see is the truth to them.

You may even blame Y for not seeing the truth because to you the truth is definitely X.
The 20% will blame you for not seeing the truth because to them the truth is definitely Y.

Now what is happening is based on the above exercise I have proven [actual experiment on self] to you that the same source of information can generate two valid truths to different groups of people.

The 80% of moderate Muslims has done their own best evaluations and came up with their own set of truths.

The 20% of evil prone Muslims has also done their very best evaluations [not blindly] and came up with their own set of truths which they serious believe are true.

The point is both groups has done their very best and perceive their respective truths and they are not wrong at all. Note the experiment above where both perceptions from the same source are truths and no one is actually wrong.

In this case we cannot blame the two groups of humans who perceive their respective truth.
The fault is on the one who prepare the source of the information for not being precise enough which open up for ambiguity.
In this case the root cause of the issue is from the Quran which enable the two groups of human beings to perceive two truths where one truth is loaded with evil elements that influenced and inspire the evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
As for the image I see a single image that can be perceived as a frog or a horse depending upon how the image is oriented (turned) The differences occur because humans tend to orient what they see from top to bottom. If one turns the picture 1/4 turn counter clockwise the horse becomes dominant.

While this is a good analogy as to how 2 different people can view the same ayyat as being peaceful or evil, it is not an actual explanation, it is an analogy. The views of an ayyat are more in line with what the reader desires to see. In other words they have a preconceived concept and will read and understand in a manner that supports their preconception. A person dedicated to "Prove" the Qur'an contains evil will tend to interpret more and more ayyats as being evil laden and in doing so demonstrate they have a very strong tendency to see evil where none exists.

The Qur'an becomes lost to such a person, it is like they are looking at a close up view of a a painting by Georges-Pierre Seurat (A noted artist in the pointillism school) and saying his work is drab because it contains numerous dark dots.

Pointillism Art Fun - Georges-Pierre Seurat

To understand the Qur'an one must read it with the proper attitude that attitude being "God(swt) does exist and He sent the Qur'an so we may know his love." Without that attitude one can not understand the Qur'an as a Muslim does. One will remain like a critic of pointillism seeing only drab dots and never seeing the picture.
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