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Old 08-02-2016, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Muslims often claimed disbelievers exercise their freewill not to believe and they have the same freewill to believe in the Allah of the Quran.

However when I read the Quran in the overall context it is Allah that make them either believers or disbelievers and they don't have the ultimate choice at all.

Point is some verse may indicate as if the disbelievers and Muslims has a no choice but in the ultimate sense there is no choice for both Muslims and disbelievers in accordance to the Quran.

Here is one verse to support my point;
10:100. It is not for any soul to believe [be a Muslim] save [except] by the permission of Allah. He hath set [cast, lay] uncleanness [disbelief, astray] upon those [infidels] who have no sense [understanding].
There are other verses of support the above point.
27:4. Lo! as for those [infidels] who believe not in the Hereafter, We have made their [infidels] works fair seeming unto them so that they [infidels] are all astray.

32:13. And if We had so willed, We could have given every soul its guidance, but the word from Me concerning evil doers took effect: that I will fill hell with the jinn and mankind together.

2:26. Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat. Those [Muslims] who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those [infidels] who disbelieve say: What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude? He [Allah] misleadeth many [infidels] thereby, and He guideth many [Muslims] thereby; and He [Allah] misleadeth thereby only miscreants;
From the above it would appear that whatever what become it is fated as decided by Allah and thus there is no ultimate freewill for any humans.
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Old 08-03-2016, 12:56 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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35:8. Is he [satan, partner, gods], the evil of whose deeds is made fair seeming unto him [infidels] so that he [infidels] deemeth it good, (other than Satan's dupe)?
Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will, so let not thy soul expire in sighings for them [infidels]. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they [infidels] do!
Where is the freewill in the above case?
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Old 08-03-2016, 02:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Muslims often claimed disbelievers exercise their freewill not to believe and they have the same freewill to believe in the Allah of the Quran.
This is correct at the beginning of your exercising your freewill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
However when I read the Quran in the overall context it is Allah that make them either believers or disbelievers and they don't have the ultimate choice at all.
It's because you do not understand the overall context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Point is some verse may indicate as if the disbelievers and Muslims has a no choice but in the ultimate sense there is no choice for both Muslims and disbelievers in accordance to the Quran.
There is always choice. Nowhere you will find in the Qur'an that you have no choice at any time whilst you are well and living (not about to die).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is one verse to support my point;
10:100. It is not for any soul to believe [be a Muslim] save [except] by the permission of Allah. He hath set [cast, lay] uncleanness [disbelief, astray] upon those [infidels] who have no sense [understanding].
It indicates that people have permission from Allah to believe or not to believe. The choice is of people but with Allah's permission to make that choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are other verses of support the above point.
27:4. Lo! as for those [infidels] who believe not in the Hereafter, We have made their [infidels] works fair seeming unto them so that they [infidels] are all astray.
Who decided not to believe in the hereafter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
32:13. And if We had so willed, We could have given every soul its guidance, but the word from Me concerning evil doers took effect: that I will fill hell with the jinn and mankind together.
Allah could have forced everyone to believe but He gave us all choice to do good or do evil. And hell is for those who do evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
2:26. Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat. Those [Muslims] who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those [infidels] who disbelieve say: What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude? He [Allah] misleadeth many [infidels] thereby, and He guideth many [Muslims] thereby; and He [Allah] misleadeth thereby only miscreants;
This is the beauty of the verses of the Qur'an. Believers learn good lessons from them and do good. But the unbelievers mock these verses as a load of garbage and evil doers twist them and, therefore, both lead themselves astray through their own choice (with the permission of Allah of course).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From the above it would appear that whatever what become it is fated as decided by Allah and thus there is no ultimate freewill for any humans.
From the above it would appear to me that whatever one becomes it is through his/her choice as permitted by Allah through his/her freewill thus there is always choice to make for humans till the death comes to him/her. Then it is too late to make that choice.

[10.90] And We made the children of Israel to pass through the sea, then Pharaoh and his hosts followed them for oppression and tyranny; until when drowning overtook him, he said: I believe that there is no god but He in Whom the children of Israel believe and I am of those who submit.

[10.91] What! Now! And indeed you disobeyed before and you were of the mischief-makers.


Overall context?
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Old 08-03-2016, 09:59 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This is correct at the beginning of your exercising your freewill.

It's because you do not understand the overall context.

There is always choice. Nowhere you will find in the Qur'an that you have no choice at any time whilst you are well and living (not about to die).

It indicates that people have permission from Allah to believe or not to believe. The choice is of people but with Allah's permission to make that choice.

Who decided not to believe in the hereafter?

Allah could have forced everyone to believe but He gave us all choice to do good or do evil. And hell is for those who do evil.

This is the beauty of the verses of the Qur'an. Believers learn good lessons from them and do good. But the unbelievers mock these verses as a load of garbage and evil doers twist them and, therefore, both lead themselves astray through their own choice (with the permission of Allah of course).

From the above it would appear to me that whatever one becomes it is through his/her choice as permitted by Allah through his/her freewill thus there is always choice to make for humans till the death comes to him/her. Then it is too late to make that choice.

[10.90] And We made the children of Israel to pass through the sea, then Pharaoh and his hosts followed them for oppression and tyranny; until when drowning overtook him, he said: I believe that there is no god but He in Whom the children of Israel believe and I am of those who submit.

[10.91] What! Now! And indeed you disobeyed before and you were of the mischief-makers.


Overall context?
In the discussion of freewill from the philosophical perspective, there is no such thing as absolute freewill within the secular or theological perspectives.

The point is there are many layers, perspectives to be considered and the concept of 'freewill' must be discussed within a framework and system with hierarchies. While within the lower hierarchies, there may be seemingly free choice by the person but in the ultimate level of the hierarchy there is actually no freewill at all.

For example, a prisoner within a cell has the freedom to walk, stand up, sing, exercise, dance, etc, based on his freewill. But he don't have the freewill and free choice to get out of his cell. In this case, the overriding factor is there is no freewill and free choice for the prisoner in consideration of the next level.

Even for the most glaring free person within society, ultimately there is no freedom and free choice for that person when higher level perspectives are taken into consideration.

In the case of Islam, yes the Quran mentioned in many verses Muslims and infidels has the freedom and free choice on what they believe and choose their beliefs. In many verses Allah accused the infidels of having being wronged themselves, i.e. they choose to sin thus deserved hell.

However, when we read the whole Quran is context, one can grasp the universal rule there is no ultimate freedom and freewill for humans because Allah has the ultimate control over human's destiny.
I have provided a few verses that show it is Allah who ultimately lead infidels astray and there is nothing they can do about it.

So it seem Allah is issuing contradictory statements, i.e. freewill in some cases and no-freewill in other cases.
I don't see any contradiction when we view them in different perspectives, senses and at different levels of the hierarchy.

In 10:100 conditioned upon Allah's permission to be make a free choice is not absolute freedom nor freewill at all when we deliberate the point at a higher perspective.

Note
Chapter 76
29. Lo! this is an Admonishment, that whosoever Will may choose a way unto his Lord.
30. Yet ye [infidels] WILL not, unless Allah willeth. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise. [Man no freewill except Allah's Will]
31. He maketh whom He will to enter His mercy, and for evil doers [infidels] hath prepared a painful doom.
In the above the ultimate will is that of Allah not that of the infidels.
28:68. Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They [mankind] have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and exalted above all that they [infidels] associate [their idols] (with Him)! [no freewill]
Note 'They [mankind] have never any choice' is clear enough, ultimately there is no freewill for humans.

Whatever sense of freedom and free choice humans feel, that is only pseudo-freedom.

Note there are hundred++ of verses within the Quran that support my point.
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Old 08-04-2016, 04:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the discussion of freewill from the philosophical perspective, there is no such thing as absolute freewill within the secular or theological perspectives.
We are talking here about "freewill" of man and not about "absolute freewill".

Imagine a circle of infinite size diameter and another circle of smaller size inside it. Your will is freewill, that smaller circle, and Allah's Will is the absolute freewill.
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Old 08-06-2016, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
We are talking here about "freewill" of man and not about "absolute freewill".

Imagine a circle of infinite size diameter and another circle of smaller size inside it. Your will is freewill, that smaller circle, and Allah's Will is the absolute freewill.
With your example above, it is a conditional freewill. That is pseudo-freewill and not real freewill.

What you missed out is a person is surrounded by many circles. Thus is apparently freewill is never freewill at all.

According the Quran, believers [Muslims] think they have freewill but they do not realized they are already fated [predestined] and controlled by Allah who had already decided the infidels will be led astray by Allah. This is obviously wrong, because the Quran was wrong on such concept in the first place.

Regardless, humans freewill is always apparent and always conditional.
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Old 08-07-2016, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
35:8. Is he [satan, partner, gods], the evil of whose deeds is made fair seeming unto him [infidels] so that he [infidels] deemeth it good, (other than Satan's dupe)?
Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will, so let not thy soul expire in sighings for them [infidels]. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they [infidels] do!
Where is the freewill in the above case?
An ayyat is seldom a stand alone phrase and often not even a complete sentence in Arabic. Keep in mind at the time the Qur'an was revealed Arabic was in the very early stages of developing a written form. The Written Qur'an is basically a memorization tool used to assist in reciting the Qur'an from memory.

Also to actually know who was being addressed and the specifics of a surah one needs to know when it was revealed and who was the targeted audience.

Surah 35 is one of the earliest revealed and was directed as a consolation to Muhammad(saws) as he was feeling discouraged and rejected. Sort of a pep talk to Muhammad(saws) to help him handle rejection and discouragement.

One should read a minimum of 1-15 as a paragraph to grasp even a rough understanding

Using Pickthall:

Praise be to Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, who appointeth the angels messengers having wings two, three and four. He multiplieth in creation what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things. - 35:1 (Picktall)
That which Allah openeth unto mankind of mercy none can withhold it; and that which He withholdeth none can release thereafter. He is the Mighty, the Wise. - 35:2 (Picktall)
O mankind! Remember Allah's grace toward you! Is there any creator other than Allah who provideth for you from the sky and the earth? There is no God save Him. Whither then are ye turned? - 35:3 (Picktall)
And if they deny thee, (O Muhammad), messengers (of Allah) were denied before thee. Unto Allah all things are brought back. - 35:4 (Picktall)
O mankind! Lo! the promise of Allah is true. So let not the life of the world beguile you, and let not the (avowed) beguiler beguile you with regard to Allah. - 35:5 (Picktall)
Lo! the devil is an enemy for you, so treat him as an enemy. He only summoneth his faction to be owners of the Earning Fire. - 35:6 (Picktall)
Those who disbelieve, theirs will be an awful doom; and those who believe and do good works, theirs will be forgiveness and a great reward. - 35:7 (Picktall)
Is he, the evil of whose deeds is made fair seeming unto him so that he deemeth it good, (other than Satan's dupe)? Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will, so let not thy soul expire in sighings for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do! - 35:8 (Picktall)
And Allah it is who sendeth the winds and they raise a cloud; then We lead it unto a dead land and revive therewith the earth after its death. Such is the Resurrection. - 35:9 (Picktall)
Whoso desireth power (should know that) all power belongeth to Allah. Unto Him good words ascend, and the pious deed doth He exalt; but those who plot iniquities, theirs will be an awful doom; and the plotting of such (folk) will come to naught. - 35:10 (Picktall)
Allah created you from dust, then from a little fluid, then He made you pairs (the male and female). No female beareth or bringeth forth save with His knowledge. And no one groweth old who groweth old, nor is aught lessened of his life, but it is recorded in a Book. Lo! that is easy for Allah. - 35:11 (Picktall)
And two seas are not alike: this, fresh, sweet, food to drink, this (other) bitter, salt. And from them both ye eat fresh meat and derive the ornament that ye wear. And thou seest the ship cleaving them with its prow that ye may seek of His bounty, and that haply ye may give thanks. - 35:12 (Picktall)
He maketh the night to pass into the day and He maketh the day to pass into the night. He hath subdued the sun and moon to service. Each runneth unto an appointed term. Such is Allah, your lord; His is the Sovereignty; and those unto whom ye pray instead of Him own not so much as the white spot on a date stone. - 35:13 (Picktall)
If ye pray unto them they hear not your prayer, and if they heard they could not grant it you. On the Day of Resurrection they will disown association with you. None can inform you like Him Who is Aware. - 35:14 (Picktall)
O mankind! Ye are the poor in your relation to Allah. And Allah! He is the Absolute, the Owner of Praise. - 35:15 (Picktall)


One also needs to know what is meant by a Satan (Shaytan) Unless one is speaking specifically of the Djinn named Iblis who tempted Eve in the Garden and is the first being known to be a Satan, any person or thing that leads a person away from Allaah(swt) is a Satan. Our own inner thoughts are the most dangerous Satan we will ever come across and Very often when Satan is mentioned, it is a reference to our own inner thoughts.
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Old 08-07-2016, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
35:8. Is he [satan, partner, gods], the evil of whose deeds is made fair seeming unto him [infidels] so that he [infidels] deemeth it good, (other than Satan's dupe)?
Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will, so let not thy soul expire in sighings for them [infidels]. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they [infidels] do!
Where is the freewill in the above case?
Now after my long unrelated explanation in my above post here is an attempt to answer your question.

Essentially it is our free will choice to ask to be guided. Allaah(swt) does not force his guidance upon us, we have to ask for it.
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Old 08-07-2016, 03:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
With your example above, it is a conditional freewill. That is pseudo-freewill and not real freewill.
You have real freewill but not absolute freewill. Only God has absolute freewill. You cannot have absolute freewill when you misuse your freewill. You cannot be God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What you missed out is a person is surrounded by many circles. Thus is apparently freewill is never freewill at all.
You have freewill in your own circle. You haven't done anything yet to be outside that circle or have absolute freewill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
According the Quran, believers [Muslims] think they have freewill but they do not realized they are already fated [predestined] and controlled by Allah who had already decided the infidels will be led astray by Allah. This is obviously wrong, because the Quran was wrong on such concept in the first place.
You misunderstand the Qur'an.

You said, "according the Quran, believers [Muslims] think they have freewill but they do not realized they are already fated [predestined] and controlled by Allah who had already decided the infidels will be led astray by Allah."

Don't you realize that they did not become believers and infidels because they are already fated but they are fated because of their own actions?

They became believers or infidels first through their free choice (freewill). It is this free choice that decides one's fate. You begin with your own action of believing or unbelieving. Your fate is sealed only after that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Regardless, humans freewill is always apparent and always conditional.
It is unconditional freewill that you decided to be an unbeliever. Did God or anyone else force you to be an unbeliever? No. You have freewill to believe or not to believe. Yes?
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Old 08-07-2016, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
An ayyat is seldom a stand alone phrase and often not even a complete sentence in Arabic. Keep in mind at the time the Qur'an was revealed Arabic was in the very early stages of developing a written form. The Written Qur'an is basically a memorization tool used to assist in reciting the Qur'an from memory.

Also to actually know who was being addressed and the specifics of a surah one needs to know when it was revealed and who was the targeted audience.

Surah 35 is one of the earliest revealed and was directed as a consolation to Muhammad(saws) as he was feeling discouraged and rejected. Sort of a pep talk to Muhammad(saws) to help him handle rejection and discouragement.

One should read a minimum of 1-15 as a paragraph to grasp even a rough understanding

Using Pickthall:

Praise be to Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, who appointeth the angels messengers having wings two, three and four. He multiplieth in creation what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things. - 35:1 (Picktall)
<snip>

One also needs to know what is meant by a Satan (Shaytan) Unless one is speaking specifically of the Djinn named Iblis who tempted Eve in the Garden and is the first being known to be a Satan, any person or thing that leads a person away from Allaah(swt) is a Satan. Our own inner thoughts are the most dangerous Satan we will ever come across and Very often when Satan is mentioned, it is a reference to our own inner thoughts.
Note 35:8 is merely ONE example amongst many verses where Allah deliberately led infidels astray.
My point is the apparent "freewill" is never really free.

Btw, in reality there is no such thing as Satan [Shaytan] existing out there terrorizing humans. What is supposed to be Satan is the very necessary basic and fundamental instincts, impulses and emotions that are likely to go wayward and manifest evil.

Many religions blamed satan and evil as from external to them when in fact, Satan and the evil potential is within humans. When one blamed evil as external there is no hope for a cure for evil, but when one recognized the evil potential is in human itself, then humans can do something within their brain and mind to stop evil as much as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Now after my long unrelated explanation in my above post here is an attempt to answer your question.

Essentially it is our free will choice to ask to be guided. Allaah(swt) does not force his guidance upon us, we have to ask for it.
When one refer to the concept of 'freewill' to solve the problem of evil, one is barking up the wrong tree.

To resolve evil, forget about freewill and look at the evil potential that is within the human brain and mind. I am very optimistic the current advancements in the Neurosciences and spirituality will improve humanity's issue of curtailing evil.
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