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Old 08-14-2016, 06:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
Reputation: 7407

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The evidence and implications of the relevant verses in the Quran are so obvious to support the point that the female is very inferior to male.

That there are women leaders in Pakistan and elsewhere is due to the forces of human nature and against the dictates of the Quran.
These leaders were chosen by the people and not by the rules of the Quran.
Note where the spirit of the Quran is strong as in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere, women as strongly and forcefully subjugated.

This is a straw man. This is more to do with the forces of human nature than the rigid rules of Islam. Besides that it is possible and can happen in the USA which is more moral than the immutable laws of Islam.

This is the same as a prisoner can have the flexibility to the toilet any time within his cell but do not have the freewill to get out of his cell.
The fact that the truth will always prevail and will ensure the lies of the Quran [in part] will crack in the future as it is already cracking at present.
What is holding the Quran is merely the very strong existential psychology within the majority of humans where there is no effective alternatives at the present.
From day one, Women have had a prominent role in Islam. Women like all men are considered to be clergy women like men are obligated to obtain as much education as they are capable of obtaining. There is nothing preventing a woman from being an Imam. there is no agency that trains and appoints Imams. Anyone can be an Imam although they often have to build their own Mosque and maintain it. In China for example most Imams are women.

A women has full control of her wealth and no man is permitted to take it from her. No man is to order a women to dress in any specific manner--Yes there are men who disobey those rules. Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy and has been under the rule of the al-Saud Family since 1929 not under Islamic rule. Prior to conquest by the al-Saud family women on the Arabian peninsula had much more rights and responsibilities than they have under the Monarchy.

Women have had and continue to have very prominent roles in the development of Islam as Scholars, Clergy, legislators and government leaders.

Spiritual and Religious Leaders | Muslim Women | WISE Muslim Women


Muslim women had rights to property ownership. Education, Clergy roles and community leadership centuries before they became possible for Western Women

It is true that in today's world women have lost their Islamic Rights in several alleged Islamic nations in violation of Islam
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Old 08-14-2016, 10:55 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,395 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
From day one, Women have had a prominent role in Islam. Women like all men are considered to be clergy women like men are obligated to obtain as much education as they are capable of obtaining. There is nothing preventing a woman from being an Imam. there is no agency that trains and appoints Imams. Anyone can be an Imam although they often have to build their own Mosque and maintain it. In China for example most Imams are women.

A women has full control of her wealth and no man is permitted to take it from her. No man is to order a women to dress in any specific manner--Yes there are men who disobey those rules. Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy and has been under the rule of the al-Saud Family since 1929 not under Islamic rule. Prior to conquest by the al-Saud family women on the Arabian peninsula had much more rights and responsibilities than they have under the Monarchy.

Women have had and continue to have very prominent roles in the development of Islam as Scholars, Clergy, legislators and government leaders.

Spiritual and Religious Leaders | Muslim Women | WISE Muslim Women


Muslim women had rights to property ownership. Education, Clergy roles and community leadership centuries before they became possible for Western Women

It is true that in today's world women have lost their Islamic Rights in several alleged Islamic nations in violation of Islam
Reality:

4:34 Husbands should take full care of their wives, with [the bounties] God has given to some more than others and with what they spend out of their own money. Righteous wives are devout and guard what God would have them guard in the husbands’ absence. If you fear high-handedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.

Hit them. Hit them. And where in the quran does it OK women hitting their husband? Post that verse.

How many wives can Muslims have? Four? Can women have 4 husbands?

Shariah:

A man is entitled to up to four wives, but a woman may only have one husband. In Western societies, a man typically only takes one wife.
The husband (or his family) pays a “bride price” or "dower" (mahr, which is money or property paid to the bride) which she is entitled to keep. This “mahr” is in exchange for sexual submission (tamkin). Sexual submission is traditionally regarded as unconditional consent for the remainder of the marriage.
A man can divorce his wife by making a declaration (talaq) in front of an Islamic judge irrespective of the woman's consent. Even her presence is not required. For a woman to divorce a man (khula), his consent is required.
The husband is responsible for the financial upkeep of home (nafaqa).
“Temporary marriage” (even for less than a half an hour) is allowed by some scholars, others regard it as a form of prostitution. A report by the Gatestone Institute charts its development in Britain.
Wife beating permitted according to some scholars.
There is no joint property; the man owns all property, (except for what the woman owned before the marriage).
There is no specific minimum age for marriage, but most agree a woman must have reached puberty. Marriage as young as 12 or 13 is not uncommon in Muslim-majority countries. In Yemen in 2013, there was a highly publicized case of an eight-year-old girl who died of internal injuries suffered on her wedding night. According to Al Jazeera, "Nearly 14 percent of Yemeni girls [are] married before the age of 15 and 52 percent before the age of 18." The case prompted calls for Yemen to pass a law setting a minimum age for marriage, although it has not yet done so.

Under sharia, women have:

Lesser inheritance rights compared to men
Lesser status as witnesses
In Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive.

Male Guardianship applies to all women whether married or not according to strict interpretations of sharia. In the event of the deaths of male relatives, it can result in mothers being legally subservient to their sons. Under sharia:

A woman becomes subservient to her husband and needs his permission to: "leave the house, take up employment, or to engage in fasting or forms of worship other than what is obligatory."
An unmarried woman is under the guardianship of her nearest male relative.
Human Rights Watch has issued a 50-page report condemning the situation of women in Saudi Arabia alone.

Many Muslim women respect the requirement to dress modestly and choose to do so. However, in Muslim-majority countries, women do not necessarily have the choice not to do so. Failure to comply with modesty laws has been known to elicit extreme violence from police in places like Iran, Afghanistan and Sudan.

Garments women are required to wear range from a hijab (a scarf covering the hair and neck), an abaya (a cloak-like, loose-fitting overgarment), a niqab (a face veil worn in addition to the hijab and abaya) to a burqa (a full-body and head cloak which includes a netted rectangle over the eyes). Exactly what constitutes immodest dress is the subject of much debate.

Violations of modesty laws are frequently met with violence in Muslim countries. Western women visiting Muslim-majority countries – for example, Saudi Arabia -- are advised to dress modestly and not to travel unaccompanied by a man.

Dubai has notoriously strict public indecency laws. Many Western tourists have fallen foul of them in the past.

Iranian President Rouhani has recently halted the activities of the country’s modesty police, but has handed over their remit to the Ministry of the Interior.

Women's Rights Under Sharia


LOOK AT THIS!!! No one tried to stop this!! These savage muslims filmed it for fun! They were in an excited frenzy!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBIUhaQyTDo
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Old 08-14-2016, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Reality:

4:34 Husbands should take full care of their wives, with [the bounties] God has given to some more than others and with what they spend out of their own money. Righteous wives are devout and guard what God would have them guard in the husbands’ absence. If you fear high-handedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.

Hit them. Hit them. And where in the quran does it OK women hitting their husband? Post that verse.

How many wives can Muslims have? Four? Can women have 4 husbands?

Shariah:

A man is entitled to up to four wives, but a woman may only have one husband. In Western societies, a man typically only takes one wife.
The husband (or his family) pays a “bride price” or "dower" (mahr, which is money or property paid to the bride) which she is entitled to keep. This “mahr” is in exchange for sexual submission (tamkin). Sexual submission is traditionally regarded as unconditional consent for the remainder of the marriage.
A man can divorce his wife by making a declaration (talaq) in front of an Islamic judge irrespective of the woman's consent. Even her presence is not required. For a woman to divorce a man (khula), his consent is required.
The husband is responsible for the financial upkeep of home (nafaqa).
“Temporary marriage” (even for less than a half an hour) is allowed by some scholars, others regard it as a form of prostitution. A report by the Gatestone Institute charts its development in Britain.
Wife beating permitted according to some scholars.
There is no joint property; the man owns all property, (except for what the woman owned before the marriage).
There is no specific minimum age for marriage, but most agree a woman must have reached puberty. Marriage as young as 12 or 13 is not uncommon in Muslim-majority countries. In Yemen in 2013, there was a highly publicized case of an eight-year-old girl who died of internal injuries suffered on her wedding night. According to Al Jazeera, "Nearly 14 percent of Yemeni girls [are] married before the age of 15 and 52 percent before the age of 18." The case prompted calls for Yemen to pass a law setting a minimum age for marriage, although it has not yet done so.

Under sharia, women have:

Lesser inheritance rights compared to men
Lesser status as witnesses
In Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive.

Male Guardianship applies to all women whether married or not according to strict interpretations of sharia. In the event of the deaths of male relatives, it can result in mothers being legally subservient to their sons. Under sharia:

A woman becomes subservient to her husband and needs his permission to: "leave the house, take up employment, or to engage in fasting or forms of worship other than what is obligatory."
An unmarried woman is under the guardianship of her nearest male relative.
Human Rights Watch has issued a 50-page report condemning the situation of women in Saudi Arabia alone.

Many Muslim women respect the requirement to dress modestly and choose to do so. However, in Muslim-majority countries, women do not necessarily have the choice not to do so. Failure to comply with modesty laws has been known to elicit extreme violence from police in places like Iran, Afghanistan and Sudan.

Garments women are required to wear range from a hijab (a scarf covering the hair and neck), an abaya (a cloak-like, loose-fitting overgarment), a niqab (a face veil worn in addition to the hijab and abaya) to a burqa (a full-body and head cloak which includes a netted rectangle over the eyes). Exactly what constitutes immodest dress is the subject of much debate.

Violations of modesty laws are frequently met with violence in Muslim countries. Western women visiting Muslim-majority countries – for example, Saudi Arabia -- are advised to dress modestly and not to travel unaccompanied by a man.

Dubai has notoriously strict public indecency laws. Many Western tourists have fallen foul of them in the past.

Iranian President Rouhani has recently halted the activities of the country’s modesty police, but has handed over their remit to the Ministry of the Interior.

Women's Rights Under Sharia


LOOK AT THIS!!! No one tried to stop this!! These savage muslims filmed it for fun! They were in an excited frenzy!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBIUhaQyTDo
Working backwards how do you know the people in the video are Muslim? Where did this take place? What is the story behind it? What makes you think such is even permitted in Islam? It would not be the first time the anti-Islam faction has passed off atrocities by non-Muslims as being done by Muslims. Best example is the video of a girl being stoned to death in Iraq. It turns out the people involved were Druze and not Muslim.

As for the modesty laws in some Muslim nations, do you believe Muslims are obligated to abide by the laws od non-Muslim nations if they are in the Nation, even if the laws violate religious practice? If so why should non-Muslims be exempt from the laws when visiting Muslim Nations? I believe all people including Muslims have an obligation to abide by the laws of any nation they enter of their own free will. If they can not abide by all the laws they have no business entering the nation. Non-Muslims need to abide by the Islamic laws in Muslim nations and Muslims need to abide by the non-Islamic laws in non-Muslim Nations. If one does not agree to abide by the laws of a Nation they should not enter it.

also keep in mind that just because a nation claims to be Islamic, it does not mean all the laws are commanded by Islam. Saudi is the best example. The laws of the "Kingdom of Saudi Arabia" are the Laws of the Monarchy (The al-Saud Family)

It is true that under Sharia the oldest male in the family is responsible for all obligations the women in the family have. That includes all financial obligations even if the women have a higher income. A women has no financial obligations, any income she has is for her own personal pleasure and a man is forbidden to force a woman to work outside the home and if a woman desires to work outside the home no man has the right to stop her unless the work is illegal. No man can force a woman to give him her income. That is her's alone and to be used as she desires. She has no obligation to use it for household expense. personal necessities or any other family expense. Nearly every Woman I know uses her income to buy gold Jewelry as a man is forbidden to own or handle gold Jewelry.

As for a man being permitted to have up to 4 wives, their are conditions that must be met in order to do so. Very few Muslim men will ever meet the required conditions. The purpose of polygamy in Islam is not for the satisfaction of the male. It is a form of social welfare to provide for widows, divorcees, Old unmarried women, etc. If a man chooses to take on an additional wife he must announce his desire to the community and the widows and divorcees with dependent children have the first option to choose him as their husband. the only time a man has a chose as to who his additional wife will be is if all the woman meeting the preferred cfiteria in his community refuse to marry him. Then he is free to choose who ever will have him if he can meet her demands as she states in the Nikkah.

As for why women receive 1/2 of the inheritance granted to males. One needs to first understand what is considered inheritable property in Islam. The house and all of it's furnishings is the property of the wife and not considered part of the inheritance. Also before the inheritable property is calculated all the conditions in the Nikkah must be paid. This will include any remaining portion of the Dower still owed to the wife, The lifetime monthly income to the wife as specified in the nikkah and any other obligations the wife has named in the Nikkah. a wise woman is certain to assure that the Nikkah will grant her everything the husband owns in the event of his death or divorce. Once the conditions of the Nikkah are met, all unpaid bills are to be paid and after that what remains becomes the inheritable property. Typically there will be nothing and the surviving male heirs are still responsible for providing all the needs of the female family members, even if they have their own income. The women receive lesser inheritance because they usually have already been granted the majority of the wealth before the inheritance is calculated.

I will agree that many Muslims do not follow Islam and follow what they personally want Islam to be.

Many non-Muslims are under the impression that the Qur'an bives men permission to hit their wives. Actually the specific ayyat actually discouages men from hitting their wives.

In English The ayyat reads:

4:34

Sahih International
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.




What first needs to be understood is what is meant by to strike and why was this even mentioned.


The Qur'an was revealed to an extremely violent and brutal people, the pre-Islamic Arabs. there were no laws forbidding a man from killing his wife or any woman. Women had no rights, were considered property and essentially useless except for sexual gratification. Allaah(swt) being aware of human nature knew that an out right command to not hit wives would be ignored and disobeyed. by using the word Daraba (Which actually means tap lightly, not strike as most translations say) there is wisdom in the wording. A man is not likely to hit his wife unless he is angry, an angry man is not likely to tap lightly, therefor in order to abide by the guidance of the ayyat a man would have to let his anger subside before tapping her lightly. However, if the man is no longer angry he is not likely to even do that. The ayyat is not giving permission for a man to hit his wife, rather it is a subtle way of telling them not to beat their wife, no matter how angry they are with her.
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Old 08-14-2016, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
From day one, Women have had a prominent role in Islam. Women like all men are considered to be clergy women like men are obligated to obtain as much education as they are capable of obtaining. There is nothing preventing a woman from being an Imam. there is no agency that trains and appoints Imams. Anyone can be an Imam although they often have to build their own Mosque and maintain it. In China for example most Imams are women.

A women has full control of her wealth and no man is permitted to take it from her. No man is to order a women to dress in any specific manner--Yes there are men who disobey those rules. Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy and has been under the rule of the al-Saud Family since 1929 not under Islamic rule. Prior to conquest by the al-Saud family women on the Arabian peninsula had much more rights and responsibilities than they have under the Monarchy.

Women have had and continue to have very prominent roles in the development of Islam as Scholars, Clergy, legislators and government leaders.

Spiritual and Religious Leaders | Muslim Women | WISE Muslim Women

Muslim women had rights to property ownership. Education, Clergy roles and community leadership centuries before they became possible for Western Women

It is true that in today's world women have lost their Islamic Rights in several alleged Islamic nations in violation of Islam
From the many readings of the Quran it is obvious women are potentially unclean, inferior and expected to be dominated and subjugated. There are so many verses in the Quran where the females are presented as inferior and low within the Islamic community.

Where women flourished to be iman, businesswoman, leaders, etc. it very obvious that is due to the natural forces of progress and evolution of human nature.

Where women has lost their basic rights it is correlated and cause by the dominance of Islam [especially the clergy] with those countries and group. More so if the clergy are dominated by evil prone Muslims. This is so obvious and glaring in the present Islamic countries.
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Old 08-15-2016, 02:45 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,056 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From the many readings of the Quran it is obvious women are potentially unclean, inferior and expected to be dominated and subjugated. There are so many verses in the Quran where the females are presented as inferior and low within the Islamic community.
"Potentially unclean"? You are "potentially unclean". I am "potentially unclean". The Qur'an does not say "women are potentially unclean". How it becomes "obvious" to you but not the rest is no surprise to me, a believer.

The Qur'an does not claim that women are inferior human beings to men. You claim so.

The Qur'an does not say that the women should "be dominated and subjugated". You say so.

It's not surprising that the woman in my life is as free as I am. She has not had a job in her life except for no more than a few months. But she still has more money than I have despite working all my life. I still give her all my money above my personal need. I often joke with her being my bank. And I have never hit her as guided by the Qur'an. That's my home life. What's wrong with that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Where women flourished to be iman, businesswoman, leaders, etc. it very obvious that is due to the natural forces of progress and evolution of human nature.
They could not have done so if the Qur'an had claimed that they could not do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Where women has lost their basic rights it is correlated and cause by the dominance of Islam [especially the clergy] with those countries and group. More so if the clergy are dominated by evil prone Muslims. This is so obvious and glaring in the present Islamic countries.
Now you have moved from what the Qur'an claimed as "obvious" to you to blaming the clergy.

Make up your mind whether you want to blame the Qur'an or the clergy!
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From the many readings of the Quran it is obvious women are potentially unclean, inferior and expected to be dominated and subjugated. There are so many verses in the Quran where the females are presented as inferior and low within the Islamic community.

Where women flourished to be iman, businesswoman, leaders, etc. it very obvious that is due to the natural forces of progress and evolution of human nature.

Where women has lost their basic rights it is correlated and cause by the dominance of Islam [especially the clergy] with those countries and group. More so if the clergy are dominated by evil prone Muslims. This is so obvious and glaring in the present Islamic countries.
Women have always been Imams. Nobody needs to be appointed by somebody to be an Imam. Who has the money to build and maintain a Mosque can do so and be the Imam. That is the typical case for most small Mosques (ie: the guy who makes a spare room in his house into a mosque. In the USA there are over 2300 Mosques but less than 700 paid Imams. The majority of US Mosques are a spare room in somebody's house and the congregation is the Imam's immediate family. There is no Clergy Hierarchy in Islam and no central "agency" that trains and appoints Imams or oversees the construction of Mosques.

You might discover that women come very close to being revered. The first Iman nearly every Muslim comes in contact with will be his mother. Women are considered to be the "Mothers of Islam"
They are the primary teachers of Islam, it is through the mother children first learn how to pray, Through their mother they learn the "Pillars of Faith" The mother is generally the one who teaches her children how to read the Qur'an. In many Muslim families the mother will be the only religious teacher the children will ever have contact with.

Many non-Muslims seemingly are under the impression the Quran teaches women "are potentially unclean, inferior and expected to be dominated and subjugated." To understand what most Muslims believe and how they perceive the Qur'an, you have to study each one individually. One also needs to understand what is meant by "Unclean" in both Islam and Judaism. The concept is essentially the same in both faiths. It was probably also part of early Christianity, but was lost as Christianity became Westernized.

Regarding "Unclean"A Starting point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumah_and_taharah (While this is from a Jewish site, it helps explain the Islamic concept of unclean)

Islam the Glorious religion | Questions Answers | Islamic

Women are equal to men, the Qur'an does recognize men and women have different attributes. But neither is superior over the other.

Non-Muslims seem to be under the impression that the testimony of a woman is worth half that of a man means the women are inferior. This is a ruling that is to protect women. It is recognition that men and women have different abilities and that men have a responsibility to be the protectors of the family. By requiring 2 female witnesses women are to some extent protected from being forced to give false testimony by physically stronger males. That is a brief incomplete explanation but the point is women are not of less value than men.

Equality of Men and Woman - Women's Rights in Islam - WomenInIslam.ws

Men and Women are spiritually equal in Islam.





I doubt a non-Muslim can determine how a Muslim understands the Qur'an. To understand the Qur'an as a Muslim understands it, one must live it as a Muslim.

Islam instill a very strong concept of family unity. One is not to cut family ties for any reason. No one is to change their family sur-name. Although we are obligated to provide for orphans adoption is forbidden. One is to always retain as much contact with their birth family as is possible.

"Adoption"
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
"Potentially unclean"? You are "potentially unclean". I am "potentially unclean". The Qur'an does not say "women are potentially unclean". How it becomes "obvious" to you but not the rest is no surprise to me, a believer.
You are ignorant there are various sources of knowledge, e.g. direct, indirect as inferred from circumstances.
A murderer will not claim s/he is a murderer but yet the jury can made their judgment based on circumstantial evidences.
It is the same in this case. The Quran did not state directly 'potentially unclean' but from the various verses regarding women, the implication in the Quran, e.g. the one on menstruation imply that women are potential unclean from the perspective of the Quran and Islam.

Quote:
The Qur'an does not claim that women are inferior human beings to men. You claim so.

The Qur'an does not say that the women should "be dominated and subjugated". You say so.
Again this is inferred from the various verses, re 'value to witnesses', 'women are a tilt to you' 'husband can beat men' etc. which imply women are inferior and to be dominated.

Quote:
It's not surprising that the woman in my life is as free as I am. She has not had a job in her life except for no more than a few months. But she still has more money than I have despite working all my life. I still give her all my money above my personal need. I often joke with her being my bank. And I have never hit her as guided by the Qur'an. That's my home life. What's wrong with that?
That is your option and discretion but the point is the Quran give the man the overriding authority to beat and dominate his wife without incurring any sin. If the women were to fight back any beating then she is sinning.
The Quran did not command a man to beat his wife but give the husband a divine permission to beat the wife under certain circumstances.

Quote:
They could not have done so if the Qur'an had claimed that they could not do so.
The general ethos from the Quran is women are expected to be oppressed by men. So of men oppressed and suppressed women in any circumstances they will not sin in the eyes of Allah.
Where women has been successful and not oppressed it is because of their inherent progressive human nature and fortunately the men are not exercising their divine right to suppress the women.

Quote:
Now you have moved from what the Qur'an claimed as "obvious" to you to blaming the clergy.
Make up your mind whether you want to blame the Qur'an or the clergy!
What wrong with that?
It is the clergy who study the Quran their whole life everyday and thus are very well versed with the Quran. In compliance with the Quran they know so well, they are forced to suppress women because they know that is in accordance to the dictates of Allah.

The blame is on the Quran [especially on the people who started it] which influenced and compelled [subliminally] the clergy [Quran specialist] to comply with the terms and conditions within the Quran which include the domination, subjugation and treating women as inferior unclean beings.
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I doubt a non-Muslim can determine how a Muslim understands the Qur'an. To understand the Qur'an as a Muslim understands it, one must live it as a Muslim.

Islam instill a very strong concept of family unity. One is not to cut family ties for any reason. No one is to change their family sur-name. Although we are obligated to provide for orphans adoption is forbidden. One is to always retain as much contact with their birth family as is possible.

"Adoption"
Note my point re women in my earlier post.

The only way to understand the Quran is to understand what Allah really intended in the Quran [& no where else] and in comparison to how it is practiced. That is the most rational and objective.

There is no way one can be objective if we merely relied on how one live as a Muslim because there is too much subjective elements in it. Note the DUCK-RABBIT scenario within the Quran and the Duck and the Rabbit will insist their respective interpretation is the right way and there will be no resolution till the cows come home.
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Old 08-15-2016, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are ignorant there are various sources of knowledge, e.g. direct, indirect as inferred from circumstances.
A murderer will not claim s/he is a murderer but yet the jury can made their judgment based on circumstantial evidences.
It is the same in this case. The Quran did not state directly 'potentially unclean' but from the various verses regarding women, the implication in the Quran, e.g. the one on menstruation imply that women are potential unclean from the perspective of the Quran and Islam.

Again this is inferred from the various verses, re 'value to witnesses', 'women are a tilt to you' 'husband can beat men' etc. which imply women are inferior and to be dominated.

That is your option and discretion but the point is the Quran give the man the overriding authority to beat and dominate his wife without incurring any sin. If the women were to fight back any beating then she is sinning.
The Quran did not command a man to beat his wife but give the husband a divine permission to beat the wife under certain circumstances.

The general ethos from the Quran is women are expected to be oppressed by men. So of men oppressed and suppressed women in any circumstances they will not sin in the eyes of Allah.
Where women has been successful and not oppressed it is because of their inherent progressive human nature and fortunately the men are not exercising their divine right to suppress the women.

What wrong with that?
It is the clergy who study the Quran their whole life everyday and thus are very well versed with the Quran. In compliance with the Quran they know so well, they are forced to suppress women because they know that is in accordance to the dictates of Allah.

The blame is on the Quran [especially on the people who started it] which influenced and compelled [subliminally] the clergy [Quran specialist] to comply with the terms and conditions within the Quran which include the domination, subjugation and treating women as inferior unclean beings.
In much the same manner a man is also potentially unclean. Anyone male or female is not to perform salat (The obligatory prayers) if they have blood flowing from any part of their body, even if it is minute. Also if they have any blood on their clothing they can not pray salat the same restrictions apply for engaging in any intimate contact with their spouse. as their are considered spiritually impure. This does not prevent either from saying Dua (Personal prayers) There are several things that will invalidate (Make the person spiritually unclean) a person's salat a few of them being:

Blood from any source on the person's body or clothing
Distracting thoughts
Yawning
Body odor, either your own or that of a person near you.
Flatulence
Coughing (There are different opinions)

Note, unclean refers to Spiritual cleanliness,

For Salat (Formal obligatory prayer) or touching a Qur'an (actual Qur'an, translations are not considered to be Qur'ans) or being intimate with our spouse we are to be as physically and spiritually clean as possible. Along with avoiding that which will make us spiritually unclean
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Old 08-15-2016, 11:33 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In much the same manner a man is also potentially unclean. Anyone male or female is not to perform salat (The obligatory prayers) if they have blood flowing from any part of their body, even if it is minute. Also if they have any blood on their clothing they can not pray salat the same restrictions apply for engaging in any intimate contact with their spouse. as their are considered spiritually impure. This does not prevent either from saying Dua (Personal prayers) There are several things that will invalidate (Make the person spiritually unclean) a person's salat a few of them being:

Blood from any source on the person's body or clothing
Distracting thoughts
Yawning
Body odor, either your own or that of a person near you.
Flatulence
Coughing (There are different opinions)

Note, unclean refers to Spiritual cleanliness,

For Salat (Formal obligatory prayer) or touching a Qur'an (actual Qur'an, translations are not considered to be Qur'ans) or being intimate with our spouse we are to be as physically and spiritually clean as possible. Along with avoiding that which will make us spiritually unclean
In context, you need to take into account the many negative elements that are directed at the women in contrast to the overall superior attribute related to the man in the Quran.

The fact the above overall context of negativity against women is reflected in practice within the Muslim community.
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