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Old 08-07-2016, 05:10 AM
 
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I'm not going to be like "Muslims are evil terrorists blah blah blah". It's tired, it's unproductive, and it doesn't address the one thing that actually needs to be addressed. What is that problem? Read the title.

So like two days ago, I was watching yet another stupid liberal bash Trump (I'm a centrist, I don't go for Bible bashers either). They were pointing out something Trump said and using " evidence" to show why it was stupid. Specifically, it was a funeral of the death of a Muslim patriot who died saving the lives of other Americans. This during the DNC i guess, so politicians could speak. The father of this guy did a lot of nagging and accusing and waved him index finger around a lot. Trump pointed out one thing, "she keeps silent, she isn't allowed to speak." The guy dredged up some point where earlier she said "Don't come back a hero, come back as my son." But this is stupid, because it misses the point. Trump is right, as I will point out later.

First off, we should not allow people to fight their own former countrymen, whether same religion or same actual culture. In WWII, Japanese were typically sent to fight in Germany and Italy, and vice versa. There is a temptation to suddenly feel pressured to switch sides. But this is not the point.

The point is not that she is not allowed to speak. It is that she is not allowed to speak in public. In front of prominent (alpha) men. In a way that really counts, such as to actually prevent her son from going to war. From thinking he needed to prove himself. It matters some that he wasn't yet another jihadist that we seen on TV killing random people. But ultimately, it boils down to one thing. The son feels worthless unless he throws his life away (whether in service to this country, or as war against it). So far as I can understand, typically the father makes him feel that way. The mother wants him to not do this, but doesn't really have a voice. The daughter, if there is one, is often raised as a boy until she becomes a teen (see "bacha posh") because a daughter, especially in families without sons, is unwanted. This is kinda screwed up.

Don't go to war. Don't be a hero. Not for some need to prove yourself. Not for your country. Not even for your religion. Come home. Be a good son to your mother. Be a good husband to your wife, and let her know that her voice matters. Be a good father to your son. Break the cycle of violence. Break the cycle of voiceless mothers.

A dead patriot to this country isn't anything to celebrate, any more than another ISIS suicide. A son who lives, loves himself, and sets a better example for his children is.
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Old 08-07-2016, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
I'm not going to be like "Muslims are evil terrorists blah blah blah". It's tired, it's unproductive, and it doesn't address the one thing that actually needs to be addressed. What is that problem? Read the title.

So like two days ago, I was watching yet another stupid liberal bash Trump (I'm a centrist, I don't go for Bible bashers either). They were pointing out something Trump said and using " evidence" to show why it was stupid. Specifically, it was a funeral of the death of a Muslim patriot who died saving the lives of other Americans. This during the DNC i guess, so politicians could speak. The father of this guy did a lot of nagging and accusing and waved him index finger around a lot. Trump pointed out one thing, "she keeps silent, she isn't allowed to speak." The guy dredged up some point where earlier she said "Don't come back a hero, come back as my son." But this is stupid, because it misses the point. Trump is right, as I will point out later.

First off, we should not allow people to fight their own former countrymen, whether same religion or same actual culture. In WWII, Japanese were typically sent to fight in Germany and Italy, and vice versa. There is a temptation to suddenly feel pressured to switch sides. But this is not the point.

The point is not that she is not allowed to speak. It is that she is not allowed to speak in public. In front of prominent (alpha) men. In a way that really counts, such as to actually prevent her son from going to war. From thinking he needed to prove himself. It matters some that he wasn't yet another jihadist that we seen on TV killing random people. But ultimately, it boils down to one thing. The son feels worthless unless he throws his life away (whether in service to this country, or as war against it). So far as I can understand, typically the father makes him feel that way. The mother wants him to not do this, but doesn't really have a voice. The daughter, if there is one, is often raised as a boy until she becomes a teen (see "bacha posh") because a daughter, especially in families without sons, is unwanted. This is kinda screwed up.

Don't go to war. Don't be a hero. Not for some need to prove yourself. Not for your country. Not even for your religion. Come home. Be a good son to your mother. Be a good husband to your wife, and let her know that her voice matters. Be a good father to your son. Break the cycle of violence. Break the cycle of voiceless mothers.

A dead patriot to this country isn't anything to celebrate, any more than another ISIS suicide. A son who lives, loves himself, and sets a better example for his children is.
Many people confuse family or national culture with Islam.

Under Islam women are permitted to be national leader. politically active and well educated. Women are basically masters of the home and all that is within it. In an actual Islamic Marriage the women is given ownership of the home and the Husband is obligated to provide her with the home she desires (This is all contracted out in the Nikkah the man and woman agree upon prior to marriage)

Women have been the primary instructors of Islamic teachings going back to Aisha(a.s.) who is considered to be one of the foremost Islamic Scholars to have ever lived.

Women have long been political leaders in Islamic Nations.

Woman Muslim Leaders throughout the Times

i believe it is safe to assume political leaders, scholars and Teachers speak in public.

Here are a few Muslim women in today's world. they are not shrinking violets that do not speak in public. The ones that are military officers have men serving under them

Try to tell Maj Marriam Mansouri she can't speak in public
UAE's 1st female fighter pilot led strike against ISIS - CNN.com

Here is a list of 10 modern day Muslim women. The seem to speak in public although number one was assassinated

10 Totally Badass Female Muslim Politicians You Should Know

But the point being Muslim women can and do speak publicly.
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Old 08-07-2016, 01:32 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Trump pointed out one thing, "she keeps silent, she isn't allowed to speak."
Trump said. “She had nothing to say. She probably, maybe she wasn’t allowed to have anything to say. You tell me.”

Trump exposed his ignorance about this Muslim woman.

Muslim women have been elected leaders of at least two of the Muslims countries less than 70 years old. It is the USA that have never allowed a woman to be the president. Trump is trying to stop a woman becoming president of US. Obviously he has contempt for women.
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Old 08-09-2016, 01:35 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,279 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Trump said. “She had nothing to say. She probably, maybe she wasn’t allowed to have anything to say. You tell me.”

Trump exposed his ignorance about this Muslim woman.

Muslim women have been elected leaders of at least two of the Muslims countries less than 70 years old. It is the USA that have never allowed a woman to be the president. Trump is trying to stop a woman becoming president of US. Obviously he has contempt for women.
Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176). In Islam, sexism is mathematically established.
Quran (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." Muslim apologists offer creative explanations to explain why Allah felt that a man's testimony in court should be valued twice as highly as a woman's, but studies consistently show that women are actually less likely to tell lies than men, meaning that they make more reliable witnesses.

Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

Quran (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Men are to rub dirt on their hands, if there is no water to purify them, following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands).

Quran (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye. (To be fair, men are told to do the same thing in the prior verse).

Quran (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." A man has dominion over his wives' bodies as he does his land. This verse is overtly sexual.

Quran (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers.

Quran (53:27) - "Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names." Angels are sublime beings, and would therefore be male.

Quran (4:24) and Quran (33:50) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage. Note that the verse distinguishes wives from captives (those whom they right hand possesses).

Hadith and Sira

Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

Bukhari (6:301) - continued - "[Muhammad said] 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her religion.'" Allah has made women deficient in the practice of their religion as well, by giving them menstrual cycles.

Bukhari (2:29) - Women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants. This is important because the only women in heaven mentioned explicitly by Muhammad are the virgins who serve the sexual desires of men. (A weak Hadith, Kanz al-`ummal, 22:10, even suggests that 99% of women go to Hell).

Bukhari (62:81) - "The Prophet said: "'The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract).'" In other words, the most important thing a woman brings to marriage is between her legs.

Bukhari (62:58) - A woman presents herself in marriage to Muhammad, but he does not find her attractive, so he "donates" her on the spot to another man.

Muslim (4:1039) - "A'isha said [to Muhammad]: 'You have made us equal to the dogs and the asses'" These are the words of Muhammad's favorite wife, complaining of the role assigned to women under Islam.

Abu Dawud (2:704) - "...the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw."

Abu Dawud (2155) - Women are compared to slaves and camels with regard to the "evil" in them.

Ishaq 593 - "As for Ali, he said, 'Women are plentiful, and you can easily change one for another.'" Ali was raised as a son by Muhammad. He was also the 4th caliph. This comment was made in Muhammad's presence without a word of rebuke from him.

Ishaq 593 - "From the captives of Hunayn, Allah's Messenger gave [his son-in-law] Ali a slave girl called Baytab and he gave [future Caliph] Uthman a slave girl called Zaynab and [future Caliph] Umar another." - Even in this world, Muhammad treated women like party favors, handing out enslaved women to his cronies for sex.

Ibn Ishaq (693) - "Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." Muhammad traded captured women for horses.

Al-Tirmidhi 3272 - "When Allah's Messenger was asked which woman was best he replied, 'The one who pleases (her husband) when he looks at her, obeys him when he gives a command, and does not go against his wishes regarding her person or property by doing anything of which he disapproves'."

Tabari VIII:117 - The fate of more captured farm wives, whom the Muslims distributed amongst themselves as sex slaves: "Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself... the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims."

Tabari IX:137 - "Allah granted Rayhana of the Qurayza to Muhammad as booty."

Ishaq 969 - "Lay injunctions on women kindly, for they are prisoners with you having no control of their persons." - This same text also says that wives may be beaten for "unseemliness".

Tabari Vol 9, Number 1754 - "Treat women well, for they are [like] domestic animals with you and do not possess anything for themselves." From Muhammad's 'Farewell Sermon'.
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Old 08-09-2016, 02:13 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post

Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"
No wonder men in US have been a degree above their women for centuries!

They have been following Shariah Law of 2:228 you quoted above for centuries.

No woman president of US ever?

Proof enough that American women are either deficient in intelligence or US men like Trump have contempt for them and use them as sex slaves only. Even the 9/11 terrorists were reported to have used them the night before.
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Old 08-09-2016, 03:34 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,279 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No wonder men in US have been a degree above their women for centuries!

They have been following Shariah Law of 2:228 you quoted above for centuries.

No woman president of US ever?

Proof enough that American women are either deficient in intelligence or US men like Trump have contempt for them and use them as sex slaves only. Even the 9/11 terrorists were reported to have used them the night before.
Do you really want to compare the lives of women in the USA with those in Muslim countries?

Let;s go!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12vvC7De7GI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-F0EngZ7EY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiT9XCZ6Bj0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiT9XCZ6Bj0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya3sAnc6EMA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fHqA4GQxsE
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Old 08-09-2016, 10:50 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No wonder men in US have been a degree above their women for centuries!

They have been following Shariah Law of 2:228 you quoted above for centuries.

No woman president of US ever?

Proof enough that American women are either deficient in intelligence or US men like Trump have contempt for them and use them as sex slaves only. Even the 9/11 terrorists were reported to have used them the night before.
The BIG difference is the Quran [& Ahadith] is immutable, i.e. cannot be changed, edited nor given any room to improve.
Therefore in accordance to the Quran females will always be inferior to the males regardless of inevitable change in time. Obviously this is based on ignorance of human nature and its potential to be changed over time.

Why no women had been nor nominated for president of the USA is merely because of some very natural attitude within society which is subject to change over time. We have seen that change in many countries and that is now a reality in the USA.

I am optimistic the rigid Quran will never stand the test of inevitable changes within time and all its weakness points will crack in time.
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Old 08-13-2016, 04:24 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The BIG difference is the Quran [& Ahadith] is immutable, i.e. cannot be changed, edited nor given any room to improve.
The Qur'an is not going to change as it is guarded no other than but by Allah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore in accordance to the Quran females will always be inferior to the males regardless of inevitable change in time. Obviously this is based on ignorance of human nature and its potential to be changed over time.
You are wrong there.

The Qur'an does not even say that female is inferior to male. Any perceived inferiority is for a reason and as soon as the reason is not there the perceived inferiority bites the dust.

The appropriate change is inbuilt in the Qur'an (you can't see it but I do). That's why they had women leaders in Pakistan and Bangladesh so soon after the States coming into existence. It is because of the inbuilt "change" that women can now walk alone in towns and do shopping on their own in many Muslim majority countries and be the bread-winner of the household.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Why no women had been nor nominated for president of the USA is merely because of some very natural attitude within society which is subject to change over time. We have seen that change in many countries and that is now a reality in the USA.
It hade taken longer in Britain to elect a woman prime minister and the wait is on still for USA until they actually elect a woman as president.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am optimistic the rigid Quran will never stand the test of inevitable changes within time and all its weakness points will crack in time.
The Qur'an is not as rigid as you think. There is a lot of flexibility in it according to the circumstance and the demands of the situations. It has no weak points. It will always stand the test of times. I am absolutely certain of the Qur'an's vitality.
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Old 08-13-2016, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The Qur'an is not going to change as it is guarded no other than but by Allah.

You are wrong there.

The Qur'an does not even say that female is inferior to male. Any perceived inferiority is for a reason and as soon as the reason is not there the perceived inferiority bites the dust.

The appropriate change is inbuilt in the Qur'an (you can't see it but I do). That's why they had women leaders in Pakistan and Bangladesh so soon after the States coming into existence. It is because of the inbuilt "change" that women can now walk alone in towns and do shopping on their own in many Muslim majority countries and be the bread-winner of the household.

It hade taken longer in Britain to elect a woman prime minister and the wait is on still for USA until they actually elect a woman as president.

The Qur'an is not as rigid as you think. There is a lot of flexibility in it according to the circumstance and the demands of the situations. It has no weak points. It will always stand the test of times. I am absolutely certain of the Qur'an's vitality.
I think that many non-Muslims and even some Muslims have the mistaken impression Islam is inflexible because they misunderstand what is meant about the Qur'an being unchangeable. There is plenty of flexibility when one understands that the Qur'an is more Guidance, history and examples than absolute commands.

Those of us that follow Ahadith and a Madhab have to always keep in mind they are human perceptions and we must not allow them to distort the guidance of the Qur'an.
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Old 08-13-2016, 11:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The Qur'an is not going to change as it is guarded no other than but by Allah.

You are wrong there.

The Qur'an does not even say that female is inferior to male. Any perceived inferiority is for a reason and as soon as the reason is not there the perceived inferiority bites the dust.
The evidence and implications of the relevant verses in the Quran are so obvious to support the point that the female is very inferior to male.

Quote:
The appropriate change is inbuilt in the Qur'an (you can't see it but I do). That's why they had women leaders in Pakistan and Bangladesh so soon after the States coming into existence. It is because of the inbuilt "change" that women can now walk alone in towns and do shopping on their own in many Muslim majority countries and be the bread-winner of the household.
That there are women leaders in Pakistan and elsewhere is due to the forces of human nature and against the dictates of the Quran.
These leaders were chosen by the people and not by the rules of the Quran.
Note where the spirit of the Quran is strong as in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere, women as strongly and forcefully subjugated.

Quote:
It hade taken longer in Britain to elect a woman prime minister and the wait is on still for USA until they actually elect a woman as president.
This is a straw man. This is more to do with the forces of human nature than the rigid rules of Islam. Besides that it is possible and can happen in the USA which is more moral than the immutable laws of Islam.

Quote:
The Qur'an is not as rigid as you think. There is a lot of flexibility in it according to the circumstance and the demands of the situations. It has no weak points. It will always stand the test of times. I am absolutely certain of the Qur'an's vitality.
This is the same as a prisoner can have the flexibility to the toilet any time within his cell but do not have the freewill to get out of his cell.
The fact that the truth will always prevail and will ensure the lies of the Quran [in part] will crack in the future as it is already cracking at present.
What is holding the Quran is merely the very strong existential psychology within the majority of humans where there is no effective alternatives at the present.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-14-2016 at 12:18 AM..
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