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Old 08-12-2016, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This is the purpose of revelation from Allah to human beings; so that Allah's influence through guidance is represented by humans for their own good. That's the only way to become a godly person (otherwise known as pious or righteous person or vicegerent of Allah on earth).

All human beings have been given guidance one way or the other even from the outset. The Qur'an confirms this. Complying with the guidance is human's responsibility. God does not force anyone to comply with His guidance for obvious reason; He is not in need for a human to comply with His guidance but it is the human who is in need to comply with His guidance to be a godly person for his/her own good. God has made it clear to human beings that He does not change condition of a people (from worse to better) unless they try to change it themselves (by taking His guidance). The same way, God has made it clear through the Qur'an that He does not change a people's condition from better to worse unless they do something so that they no longer deserve to be in that better condition (through the favors of God). All this is the result of human free will (responsibility of accepting accountability for his/her action).

Yes, other than the Qur'an after the revelation of the Qur'an is not divine but the work of human themselves. God had made clear to Adam that He will send messages and whoever takes the guidance will not fear or grieve (2:38). God did not say to Adam, you can create your own guidance independent of His guidance.

It is silly because Allah makes it clear in the Qur'an that there is no compulsion in religion. He does not compel/force humans but only guides and it is the human who is then responsible and accountable for his/her action. This is so because human has been given brain to think and heart to understand the difference between right and wrong.
As I had mentioned if God exists as an all powerful being, then it is silly and irrational for such a god to play the fool with human beings and allow SOME to commit terrible evils and violence. Only an immoral God would put human beings into such a situation and punished them if they sin.

There is compulsion when human beings are threatened with hell and the worst kind of torture from an all powerful being, IF humans do not believe in Allah. This is obvious compulsion regardless of what Allah state in the Quran.

Quote:
That would not be humans with free will but programmed robots.
They still have 'free will' but conditioned within various sets of conditions. They are not mechanic robots in a sense, but merely organically programmed humans by a God.

Quote:
This is where you lack understanding of the Qur'an to a meaningful extent. Wherever it is stated so in the Qur'an about infidels (unbelievers) it is due to their own action of unbelieving first. It wasn't Allah who made them infidels but they choose to be infidels first. Allah had guided ALL to be good humans but the infidels choose not to take that guidance. Therefore, the infidels chose to be astray and Allah helps them, as they strive, to be astray.

[53.39] And that human shall have nothing but what s/he strives for-

No. It is because Allah did not create humans as robots but given them faculty of volition to choose between right and wrong.
I have already mentioned for example, a person can be given a free will to use the toilet any time in his cell, but overall there is no freewill for his freedom.
It is the same for a God who give humans some options of volition but overall there is no real freewill to humans ultimately.

Quote:
Who invented existence? Scientists? Infidels?
What a silly question.
Existence is glaringly obvious and can be easily proven with your own existence.
Why do you need to find out "who" invented existence.
What is most critical is to recognize one's own existence and that of others and live harmoniously with all other existence.
What is the point of getting desperate about who invented existence when such a question lead SOME believers to commit terrible evils and violence in the case of the Quran and SOME evil prone believers.

Quote:
Faith is about unseen. Proof is about seen. Faith is not without reason. It is reasonable to believe that the universe was created out of nothing by an uncreated God. There could have been no existence without there being an uncreated existing Being. Believers believe it to be God.
Faith do imply some degree of crude reason but not reason guided by wisdom. I have no issue with any one relying on faith for various psychological reasons. However we must investigate into faith that lead SOME believers to commit terrible evils and violence upon innocent humans.

Quote:
It is illogical to blame God or even anyone who wrote the text in view of the people who have benefited from it and are still peaceful human beings after reading the same text.
Note the starting point is one set of such examples, i.e.


The above is of great concern to the future of humanity thus warrant very serious attention by any concerned citizen of humanity.
Based on extensive analysis and research the ultimate root cause are the following;

1. 20% of all Muslims [as with all human beings] has active evil tendencies.
2. The Quran has good and evil laden malignant elements.
3. The evil prone Muslims from 1 are influenced by the evil laden elements in 2 to commit terrible evils and violence.

Whoever compile the Quran and include evil laden elements therein can only be human[s] and not a supposedly God [if exists].

Therefore it is very logical and rational to blame the human[s] who included evil laden elements in the holy texts and claimed it to be immutable. Thus the focus of attention at present should be on the texts, i.e. the part of the ideology that is triggering SOME evil prone to commit evil.

As you should note seriously, the above root causes that need to be addressed are led by the undeniable glaring evidences.

Quote:
It is illogical to blame the text due to the action of a minority and not praise the text for the action of the majority based on the same text.
This is a straw men.
Do we need to praise loudly how the Buddhist, Taoist, Jainist texts did not contribute to any evil at all? There is no need for praise because it a default of any religion that it should be a religion of peace. It is only when a religion do not meet the standard requirement that people should be concerned.

It is a very basic human instinct and principle to always give attention to the sore thumb rather than ignoring it and focus on the rest of the body that is not in pain.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-12-2016 at 12:51 AM..
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Old 08-13-2016, 07:50 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had mentioned if God exists as an all powerful being, then it is silly and irrational for such a god to play the fool with human beings and allow SOME to commit terrible evils and violence. Only an immoral God would put human beings into such a situation and punished them if they sin.

There is compulsion when human beings are threatened with hell and the worst kind of torture from an all powerful being, IF humans do not believe in Allah. This is obvious compulsion regardless of what Allah state in the Quran.

They still have 'free will' but conditioned within various sets of conditions. They are not mechanic robots in a sense, but merely organically programmed humans by a God.

I have already mentioned for example, a person can be given a free will to use the toilet any time in his cell, but overall there is no freewill for his freedom.
It is the same for a God who give humans some options of volition but overall there is no real freewill to humans ultimately.

What a silly question.
Existence is glaringly obvious and can be easily proven with your own existence.
Why do you need to find out "who" invented existence.
What is most critical is to recognize one's own existence and that of others and live harmoniously with all other existence.
What is the point of getting desperate about who invented existence when such a question lead SOME believers to commit terrible evils and violence in the case of the Quran and SOME evil prone believers.

Faith do imply some degree of crude reason but not reason guided by wisdom. I have no issue with any one relying on faith for various psychological reasons. However we must investigate into faith that lead SOME believers to commit terrible evils and violence upon innocent humans.

Note the starting point is one set of such examples, i.e.


The above is of great concern to the future of humanity thus warrant very serious attention by any concerned citizen of humanity.
Based on extensive analysis and research the ultimate root cause are the following;

1. 20% of all Muslims [as with all human beings] has active evil tendencies.
2. The Quran has good and evil laden malignant elements.
3. The evil prone Muslims from 1 are influenced by the evil laden elements in 2 to commit terrible evils and violence.

Whoever compile the Quran and include evil laden elements therein can only be human[s] and not a supposedly God [if exists].

Therefore it is very logical and rational to blame the human[s] who included evil laden elements in the holy texts and claimed it to be immutable. Thus the focus of attention at present should be on the texts, i.e. the part of the ideology that is triggering SOME evil prone to commit evil.

As you should note seriously, the above root causes that need to be addressed are led by the undeniable glaring evidences.

This is a straw men.
Do we need to praise loudly how the Buddhist, Taoist, Jainist texts did not contribute to any evil at all? There is no need for praise because it a default of any religion that it should be a religion of peace. It is only when a religion do not meet the standard requirement that people should be concerned.

It is a very basic human instinct and principle to always give attention to the sore thumb rather than ignoring it and focus on the rest of the body that is not in pain.
Just addressing 2 points

1. Why does "Faith Freedom" rely so much on the melodramatic representation of their"Terrorism Meter"? What does it actually show except that over a 15 year period there were an average of less than 2,000 of whatever it is they call terroism attacks by Muslims. which is actually a very low percentage of the total number of Terrorism attacks that occur each year? Over 98% of the annual terrorist attacks are by non-Muslims. How come only Muslims get a counter?

Some annual figures

Europol Report: All Terrorists are Muslims...Except the 99.6% that Aren't | loonwatch.com

Your last paragraph:

It is a very basic human instinct and principle to always give attention to the sore thumb rather than ignoring it and focus on the rest of the body that is not in pain.

Is true and many non-Muslims do exactly that when looking at Islam. They imagine Islam to be Terrorism and neglect that the Terrorism by Muslims is almost exclusivly the work of 3 radical criminal groups that are as much an enemy of Islam as they are enemies of non-Muslims. The result is failure to see that over 99% of the world's Muslims have not and will not commit an act of Terrorism. I base that on the 30,000 Terrorism acts (Rounding up ward) on the Faith Freedom and assuming an average of 100 Muslims being involved in each attack. Which means that in the past 15 years 3,000,000 Muslims were involved in Terrorism which is less than 1% of the worlds 1,500,000,000 Muslims (1% would be 15,000,000) 3,000,000 is 1/5 of that or .2 percent of the world's a rate much too small to statistically establish Islam as being the causative factor.

A very probable causation of evil by some Muslims is the fact that until very recent times nearly all of the Islamic Nations were under the oppression of Colonialism by the British, French, Spanish, Dutch and others. Formerly oppressed people can be very vindictive. I believe this is the cause of violence by some Muslims. Note the Nations most Islamic terrorists are associated with and look at their date of independence. (The Palestinians went from British rule to Israeli rule and still seek independence, probably in the wrong way, but desperate people take desperate actions) There are many factors all more probable causes of evil by some Muslim, than the Qur'an is. I strongly suspect vindication by some in former colonies to be the most probable cause, Especially in the North African and Mideastern Muslim Nations which have only recently gained independence from England, France, Spain and Italy.
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Old 08-14-2016, 12:45 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Just addressing 2 points

1. Why does "Faith Freedom" rely so much on the melodramatic representation of their"Terrorism Meter"? What does it actually show except that over a 15 year period there were an average of less than 2,000 of whatever it is they call terroism attacks by Muslims. which is actually a very low percentage of the total number of Terrorism attacks that occur each year? Over 98% of the annual terrorist attacks are by non-Muslims. How come only Muslims get a counter?

Some annual figures

Europol Report: All Terrorists are Muslims...Except the 99.6% that Aren't | loonwatch.com

Your last paragraph:

It is a very basic human instinct and principle to always give attention to the sore thumb rather than ignoring it and focus on the rest of the body that is not in pain.

Is true and many non-Muslims do exactly that when looking at Islam. They imagine Islam to be Terrorism and neglect that the Terrorism by Muslims is almost exclusivly the work of 3 radical criminal groups that are as much an enemy of Islam as they are enemies of non-Muslims. The result is failure to see that over 99% of the world's Muslims have not and will not commit an act of Terrorism. I base that on the 30,000 Terrorism acts (Rounding up ward) on the Faith Freedom and assuming an average of 100 Muslims being involved in each attack. Which means that in the past 15 years 3,000,000 Muslims were involved in Terrorism which is less than 1% of the worlds 1,500,000,000 Muslims (1% would be 15,000,000) 3,000,000 is 1/5 of that or .2 percent of the world's a rate much too small to statistically establish Islam as being the causative factor.

A very probable causation of evil by some Muslims is the fact that until very recent times nearly all of the Islamic Nations were under the oppression of Colonialism by the British, French, Spanish, Dutch and others. Formerly oppressed people can be very vindictive. I believe this is the cause of violence by some Muslims. Note the Nations most Islamic terrorists are associated with and look at their date of independence. (The Palestinians went from British rule to Israeli rule and still seek independence, probably in the wrong way, but desperate people take desperate actions) There are many factors all more probable causes of evil by some Muslim, than the Qur'an is. I strongly suspect vindication by some in former colonies to be the most probable cause, Especially in the North African and Mideastern Muslim Nations which have only recently gained independence from England, France, Spain and Italy.
Btw, "Faith Freedom" is a straw man.
The counter I post often is from "The Religion of Peace". https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/



As I had always explained the above counter is merely one type of very serious evils committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are influenced by the evil laden elements within the Quran.

Btw, my focus is on ALL types of evil committed by SOME evil prone Muslims not just the above counter which focus on incidents with deaths and are mainly related to terrorism.
I use the above because it is the only easily available statistics from the web.
I don't see any others credible ones, lest you let me know if there are others counters.

Frankly I am more interested in statistics on ALL types of evils committed by SOME evil prone Muslims that cover politics, economics, cultural, social, religious, and every aspect of humanity where non-Muslims are the victims.

Btw, do not think I am merely focusing on merely evils by SOME evil prone Muslims. I am very interested in ALL evils and violence committed from every sources as a part of my total project. It seems I am only focusing on Islam-related evils and violence, but that is only because I have to stick to topic since this forum is specific to Islam.
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Old 08-14-2016, 05:22 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Btw, "Faith Freedom" is a straw man.
The counter I post often is from "The Religion of Peace". https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/



As I had always explained the above counter is merely one type of very serious evils committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are influenced by the evil laden elements within the Quran.

Btw, my focus is on ALL types of evil committed by SOME evil prone Muslims not just the above counter which focus on incidents with deaths and are mainly related to terrorism.
I use the above because it is the only easily available statistics from the web.
I don't see any others credible ones, lest you let me know if there are others counters.

Frankly I am more interested in statistics on ALL types of evils committed by SOME evil prone Muslims that cover politics, economics, cultural, social, religious, and every aspect of humanity where non-Muslims are the victims.

Btw, do not think I am merely focusing on merely evils by SOME evil prone Muslims. I am very interested in ALL evils and violence committed from every sources as a part of my total project. It seems I am only focusing on Islam-related evils and violence, but that is only because I have to stick to topic since this forum is specific to Islam.
Ali Sina's little meter is widely copied by the anti Islamic sites and held by many to be valid statistics. I have not been able to find any independent sources for the data reflected by the meter.

Actually when I look at it I see it more as showing that Islamic Terrorism is not as widely spread as the anti-Islamic sites tend to portray it as being. The meter is interesting by what it does not show:

The location of the Terrorism
The national origin of the Terrorist
How it is determined they are Muslim
Who the victims are

Looking at the world news it seems that the vast majority of terrorist attacks by Muslims are in Islamic nations by ISIS or related groups and the Targets are predominantly Muslims. Perhaps the terrorism is usually politically motivated and seldom religious reasons.
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Old 08-14-2016, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Ali Sina's little meter is widely copied by the anti Islamic sites and held by many to be valid statistics. I have not been able to find any independent sources for the data reflected by the meter.
For your information, that counter has nothing to do with Ali Sina who is now inactive.
It is started and maintain by the owner of the ReligionOfPeace site and has nothing to do with Ali Sina.

Quote:
Actually when I look at it I see it more as showing that Islamic Terrorism is not as widely spread as the anti-Islamic sites tend to portray it as being. The meter is interesting by what it does not show:

The location of the Terrorism
The national origin of the Terrorist
How it is determined they are Muslim
Who the victims are

Looking at the world news it seems that the vast majority of terrorist attacks by Muslims are in Islamic nations by ISIS or related groups and the Targets are predominantly Muslims. Perhaps the terrorism is usually politically motivated and seldom religious reasons.
The fact is ALL the incidents are initiated by Muslims and interpreted as related to Islam.

Like any statistics we must provide for a margin of error and I believe it would be around 5%.

I understand the majority of incidents are from the various hot spots [Middle East, Philippines, Southern Thailand] around the world arising from Muslims activities.

Personally I would never accept the total as it is and generalize from the total itself. I would definitely be interested in analyzing the total in the categories you stated above and into other relevant categories.
Nevertheless, taking into account the margin of error, all these incidents are committed by Muslims and related to Islam.
It is just a matter of how much of a degree it is related to Islam [in part] and to its evil laden elements. Obviously the onus of proofs is on the positive claimants.

For example, the Muslims fighting in Southern Philippines and Southern Thailand are mainly fighting for autonomy, so the question is how much and to what degree are the terrible evils committed are influenced by Islam [in part]. In this case, the main element would be political but Islam [in part] would definitely contribute in some degree to the terrible evils and violence.
This is because Islam is claimed to be a way of life and including the political sphere and the terrorists imputed the doctrines of Islam [DUCK-RABBIT] as an essential part of their terrorizing.

Btw, the counter is merely a convenient counter which is nevertheless a very significant representation of the evil and violence emanating from Islam in part.
The critical point here is you must not forget the WHOLE range of evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims around the world. It is not easy to get the statistics for the other types of evil so, the next best I refer to is this critical one; [29,014]



The point is 29,014 is really a crazy total and it is increasing every day.
This counter relate to only incidents-with-deaths.
Therefore even if 100 of such fatal incidents it would be a VERY serious issue to humanity.
But 29,014 and rising almost on a daily basis is madness!! and what is regrettable is the majority of Muslims and many on the Left cannot sense the serious involvement of Islam [in part] in this total.
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Old 08-15-2016, 01:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The fact is ALL the incidents are initiated by Muslims and interpreted as related to Islam.
Funny how ALL terrorism is related to Islam but nobody relates me to Islam.

If a Christian priest is murdered, it is part of Continuum meter but when an Imam is murdered it is neither terrorism nor part of the meter.

Frankly the meter is getting boring.
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Old 08-15-2016, 01:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
...what is regrettable is the majority of Muslims and many on the Left cannot sense the serious involvement of Islam [in part] in this total.
What is regrettable is that even intelligent non-Muslims cannot sense the involvement of Islam in the lives of millions of Muslims who are living peacefully.
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Old 08-15-2016, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
What is regrettable is that even intelligent non-Muslims cannot sense the involvement of Islam in the lives of millions of Muslims who are living peacefully.
What is deceptive about the meter is it leaves one with the impression that all the Terrorism acts were against non-Muslims and all occurred recently. That meter covers a 15 year period and the majority of Muslim terrorism has been by ISIS or similar groups against Muslims. The mideast is in a civil war and a small faction is attempting to gain political control over all the Islamic nations from Egypt to Bangladesh.It also happens that is an oil-rich region and has the potential to make some people very wealthy. (ISIS) was generating over $2,000,000 daily just from illegally smuggling out stolen oil from 1 oil field and selling it below market prices.

If one looks at the meter and understands it over a 15 year period the rate of terrorism is much too low to be considered anything except spontaneous acts with no specific cause. You have an average of 1 Terrorism act per year for every 7,500,000 Muslims. Much too small of a rate to assume a specific single causation factor. On the other hand as it can be assumed all of those 7,500,000 are exposed to the Qur'an it gives rise to the probability that reading the Qur'an reduces acts of terrorism. If we assume 20% of all Muslims are evil prone out of 7,500,000 we should have 37,000 evil prone Muslims and if just 1% of them commits an act of religious terrorism inspired by the Qur'an we should have 370 acts of religious terrorism every year for every 7,500,000 Muslims or a world total of at least. 37,000 acts of religious terrorism by Muslims each year.
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Old 08-16-2016, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Funny how ALL terrorism is related to Islam but nobody relates me to Islam.
You are kicking your own backside by stating and using the term 'ALL terrorism is related to Islam.'
I have always insisted all terrorism, evils and violence related to Islam are due to SOME evil prone Muslims being influenced evil laden elements which are a part of Islam.

Quote:
If a Christian priest is murdered, it is part of Continuum meter but when an Imam is murdered it is neither terrorism nor part of the meter.

Frankly the meter is getting boring.
The meter is a fact, truth and reflect reality.
Boring is subjective and you dislike it because it reflect an aspect of truth of your religion, albeit you are not a part of this evil.

The point is you definitely need evidence from me to support my views, otherwise you will complain my views are merely conjectures. This meter is a fact and a very necessary evidence to support my views objectively.

It is like some one in a court hearing who complain of being boring hearing the list of 29,000 crimes committed by the defendant, but that evidence is critically necessary on a legal basis to justify the accusation of his crimes.
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Old 08-16-2016, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
What is deceptive about the meter is it leaves one with the impression that all the Terrorism acts were against non-Muslims and all occurred recently. That meter covers a 15 year period and the majority of Muslim terrorism has been by ISIS or similar groups against Muslims. The mideast is in a civil war and a small faction is attempting to gain political control over all the Islamic nations from Egypt to Bangladesh.It also happens that is an oil-rich region and has the potential to make some people very wealthy. (ISIS) was generating over $2,000,000 daily just from illegally smuggling out stolen oil from 1 oil field and selling it below market prices.

If one looks at the meter and understands it over a 15 year period the rate of terrorism is much too low to be considered anything except spontaneous acts with no specific cause. You have an average of 1 Terrorism act per year for every 7,500,000 Muslims. Much too small of a rate to assume a specific single causation factor. On the other hand as it can be assumed all of those 7,500,000 are exposed to the Qur'an it gives rise to the probability that reading the Qur'an reduces acts of terrorism. If we assume 20% of all Muslims are evil prone out of 7,500,000 we should have 37,000 evil prone Muslims and if just 1% of them commits an act of religious terrorism inspired by the Qur'an we should have 370 acts of religious terrorism every year for every 7,500,000 Muslims or a world total of at least. 37,000 acts of religious terrorism by Muslims each year.
Come on, the meter states what is represent very clearly, i.e. since 911 because that is a significant date.

Quote:
What is deceptive about the meter is it leaves one with the impression that all the Terrorism acts were against non-Muslims and all occurred recently.
How can it be deceptive when it is based on facts.

Impression is very subjective, i.e. DUCK-RABBIT. If any is led by his own subjective impressions, then there is some thing very wrong with the person's intellectual and rational maturity. Thus the person will have to improve his/her own intellectual and rational maturity.

Your analysis to dilute and deflect the evil impact of the facts of that counter is not applicable nor effective at all in the case of getting to the root cause of this very serious matter.

These are 29,000++ evil deeds by SOME Muslims that involve at least one death.
Even one case that involve death in such circumstances is a very serious matter, and note this is not one or two but more than 29,000!!

Thus what is most concern and critical to humanity is to analyze the ultimate root causes to the above >29,000 incidents with death and seek solutions to prevent, reduce or if possible eliminate the problem.

Btw, I repeat ALL acts of evils, violence and terror within humanity MUST be addressed and be resolved. Since this is a forum relate to Islam, then we should confine the issues to those that are related to Islam.
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