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Old 08-09-2016, 10:20 AM
 
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Bismillāh ir Rahmān ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allāh The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salāmu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.

Obviously, I am not the only one, but I've been waiting patiently for the Muslims to stop fighting over trivial things, and unite. I don't know what signs to look for, that would indicate that this is about to occur.

The following is a discourse that many may have missed:

A SHI'ITE ENCYCLOPEDIA
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Old 08-09-2016, 01:30 PM
 
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Bismillāh ir Rahmān ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allāh The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. Wa alaikum assalaam And upon you too be peace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Obviously, I am not the only one, but I've been waiting patiently for the Muslims to stop fighting over trivial things, and unite.
I agree. Unfortunately it is not going to happen because of the curse due to them breaking into sects. Each sect has that special chip on its shoulder (the ego) which will not let them unite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
I don't know what signs to look for, that would indicate that this is about to occur.
It will happen only when both the SHI'ITE ENCYCLOPEDIA and the SUNNI ENCYCLOPEDIA are gotten rid of and rely on only ENCYCLOPEDIA OF ALLAH (The Qur'an).

In the hereafter, the cry of the Messenger won't be that his people forsook his Sunnah or his family or even his hadith but the Qur'an.

[25.30] And the Messenger cried out: O my Lord! Surely my people have treated this Qur'an as a forsaken thing.

Every sect is doomed. Forget about "one" sect being successful. The Messenger never said anything like that or to follow his Sunnah. The only Sunnah mentioned in the Qur'an is the Sunnah of Allah.

[6.159] Surely they who divided their deen into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did.
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Old 08-09-2016, 05:25 PM
 
352 posts, read 309,705 times
Reputation: 54
Bismillāh ir Rahmān ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allāh The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salāmu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.


Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Obviously, I am not the only one, but I've been waiting patiently for the Muslims to stop fighting over trivial things, and unite.

Quote:
I agree. Unfortunately it is not going to happen because of the curse due to them breaking into sects. Each sect has that special chip on its shoulder (the ego) which will not let them unite.
How then can there be an expected al-Mahdi/al-Qaim/Muhammad The Rightly Guided One? Almost every sect believes/expects His return.


Quote:
It will happen only when both the SHI'ITE ENCYCLOPEDIA and the SUNNI ENCYCLOPEDIA are gotten rid of and rely on only ENCYCLOPEDIA OF ALLAH (The Qur'an).
I can agree that Al-Qur'an is a major source of Guidance/Knowledge. The Shi'ite Encyclopedia appears to divide knowledge between the two major Islamic groups. It seems to peruse hadiith intelligently, as well.

Quote:
In the hereafter, the cry of the Messenger won't be that his people forsook his Sunnah or his family or even his hadith but the Qur'an.
I certainly empathize with that statement.

Quote:
[25.30] And the Messenger cried out: O my Lord! Surely my people have treated this Qur'an as a forsaken thing.
Quote:
Every sect is doomed. Forget about "one" sect being successful. The Messenger never said anything like that or to follow his Sunnah. The only Sunnah mentioned in the Qur'an is the Sunnah of Allah.
I believe what is intended here is the guidance of the Prophet (saw) himself. As Al-Qur'an indicates and compares him (saw) with Prophet Ibrahim PBUH.


Quote:
[6.159] Surely they who divided their deen into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did.
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Old 08-09-2016, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,596,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Bismillāh ir Rahmān ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allāh The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. Wa alaikum assalaam And upon you too be peace.

I agree. Unfortunately it is not going to happen because of the curse due to them breaking into sects. Each sect has that special chip on its shoulder (the ego) which will not let them unite.

It will happen only when both the SHI'ITE ENCYCLOPEDIA and the SUNNI ENCYCLOPEDIA are gotten rid of and rely on only ENCYCLOPEDIA OF ALLAH (The Qur'an).

In the hereafter, the cry of the Messenger won't be that his people forsook his Sunnah or his family or even his hadith but the Qur'an.

[25.30] And the Messenger cried out: O my Lord! Surely my people have treated this Qur'an as a forsaken thing.

Every sect is doomed. Forget about "one" sect being successful. The Messenger never said anything like that or to follow his Sunnah. The only Sunnah mentioned in the Qur'an is the Sunnah of Allah.

[6.159] Surely they who divided their deen into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did.
I agree the Quran condemned the division into sect. Logically, rationally in accordance to the Quran, the only divine authority should be from the Quran and no where else.

However it is the fault of the Quran for not being precise enough to deal with the natural tendencies and instinct of ALL humans to divide into smaller groups.
Now if God is all powerful, why did God allow humans to divide themselves into sects so easily even despite the warning and threat of sin.

The other problem with the Quran on this issue is the 'obey Allah and obey the Messenger' elements are not precisely stated in the Quran. Thus this also 'obey the Messenger' leaves room for the majority to interpret as obeying everything the messenger said in addition to what is stipulated in the Quran by Allah.
Why this weakness exists is because the Quran was authored by humans and not by a supposedly all powerful and all knowing God.

I don't believe the Shia and Sunni will ever unite truly especially with such views from the Shia,
Note the various negative views of Sunnis from Sheik Yasser Habib who claimed to support his arguments from authentic Sunni own sources. e.g.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VivjXrTHKDE
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Old 08-10-2016, 04:11 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,049,857 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree the Quran condemned the division into sect. Logically, rationally in accordance to the Quran, the only divine authority should be from the Quran and no where else.
There is enough in the Qur'an to understand that the Qur'an is the divine authority and not the hadith books written by men long after the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
However it is the fault of the Quran for not being precise enough to deal with the natural tendencies and instinct of ALL humans to divide into smaller groups.
Actually it is your fault that you are not being precise enough about "divide into smaller groups". For humans to divide into smaller groups (families, tribes and communities) is fine. It is divisions in deen that creates sects and hostilities. This is why the Qur'an is clear about being united in deen as One Brotherhood. To say that it is the fault of the Qur'an that people split into sects is exposing one's ignorance about the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Now if God is all powerful, why did God allow humans to divide themselves into sects so easily even despite the warning and threat of sin.
God does not "allow" humans to divide into sects but human divide "themselves" into sects, and you know it well.

[33.72] Surely We offered the trust (amanah) to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to be unfaithful to it and feared from it, and man has turned unfaithful to it; surely he is unjust, ignorant.

Amanah (trust) in this verse is responsibility accepted by mankind to use reason and intellect when deciding to choose either right or wrong through free will.

It would be silly to say that if God is all powerful, why does he allow terrorists to kill innocent human beings. Should we blame God for it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The other problem with the Quran on this issue is the 'obey Allah and obey the Messenger' elements are not precisely stated in the Quran. Thus this also 'obey the Messenger' leaves room for the majority to interpret as obeying everything the messenger said in addition to what is stipulated in the Quran by Allah.
That is not problem with the Qur'an but problem with men who do not understand that the Qur'an has never said, "obey Allah and obey Muhammad". When ignorant men (there are quite a few of them around) read, "obey Allah and obey His messenger", they corrupt the statement and assume it to be "obey Allah and obey Muhammad" because they have been brainwashed by their clerics to believe only in that manner.

Muhammad was messenger only when he was delivering the message (of the Qur'an). At other times, he was "abd", servant.

[53.10] And He revealed to His servant what He revealed.

Clearly the revelation came to Muhammad who was "abd" of Allah. Muhammad was "messenger" when he was delivering the "message".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Why this weakness exists is because the Quran was authored by humans and not by a supposedly all powerful and all knowing God.
It's not a weakness of either Allah or the Qur'an but the weakness is of those who think that man should have been an Allah's programmed robot on earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't believe the Shia and Sunni will ever unite truly especially with such views from the Shia,
Note the various negative views of Sunnis from Sheik Yasser Habib who claimed to support his arguments from authentic Sunni own sources.
Both are at each other's throat, and both are wrong. I am not a Shia but I also think that the Sunnis are wrong too. Sunnis are supposed to be following Sunnah of the Prophet. The Prophet had never lied as a Prophet but none of the Sunnis have ever followed that Sunnah of the Prophet.
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Old 08-10-2016, 05:00 PM
 
352 posts, read 309,705 times
Reputation: 54
Bismillāh ir Rahmān ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allāh The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salāmu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.


Quote:
The other problem with the Quran on this issue is the 'obey Allah and obey the Messenger' elements are not precisely stated in the Quran. Thus this also 'obey the Messenger' leaves room for the majority to interpret as obeying everything the messenger said in addition to what is stipulated in the Quran by Allah.
Why this weakness exists is because the Quran was authored by humans and not by a supposedly all powerful and all knowing God. ~ Continuum


There is no weakness in Qur'an, as you perceive. And while I am no big fan of Ahadith, my understanding is that there is a Science involved with accepting (and maybe applying), a hadith.

One must collect and study all of the Ahadith related to a particular topic/subject before determining its validity/authenticity. The transmitters/narrators of a hadith must be reliable, and trustworthy. One must not be a liar. Some narrators it is claimed, have admitted to fabricating Ahadith. So no one today will accept every hadith claimed to have been spoken by the Prophet Muhammad (saw).

24:52 And he who obeys Allah and His Apostle, and fears Allah, and is careful of (his duty to) Him, these it is that are the achievers.

24:54 Say: Obey Allah and obey the Apostle; but if you turn back, then on him rests that which is imposed on him and on you rests that which is imposed on you; and if you obey him, you are on the right way; and nothing rests on the Apostle but clear delivering (of the message).

033.056 Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.


The Sunnah and its role in Islamic legislation by Dr. Mustafa as-Siba'ee
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Old 08-10-2016, 05:08 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,049,857 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
How then can there be an expected al-Mahdi/al-Qaim/Muhammad The Rightly Guided One? Almost every sect believes/expects His return.
Yes, almost every sect. They are all doomed. There is to be no al-Mahdi in future. There is nothing about al-Mahdi in the Qur'an. It is all made up from the fabricated ahadith. Those who have divided themselves into sects will keep killing each other till the resurrection day.

If you tell me what al-Mahdi will do to the Christians when he comes, I will tell you, with support from the Qur'an, why it won't happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
I can agree that Al-Qur'an is a major source of Guidance/Knowledge. The Shi'ite Encyclopedia appears to divide knowledge between the two major Islamic groups. It seems to peruse hadiith intelligently, as well.
Any Islamic group must peruse only Hadith of Allah (the Qur'an), the Best Hadith. We are not to peruse any other hadith (45:6) after the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
I believe what is intended here is the guidance of the Prophet (saw) himself. As Al-Qur'an indicates and compares him (saw) with Prophet Ibrahim PBUH.
The best guidance is the guidance of Allah (3:73, 6:71). The prophet was delivering only the guidance of Allah and no other guidance from himself. He was following only what was revealed to him from Allah.

[33.2] And follow what is revealed to you from your Lord; surely Allah is Aware of what you do.

[2.38] We said: Go forth from this (state) all; so surely there will come to you a guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.

People are to follow Allah's guidance. Even the Prophet was following Allah's guidance.
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,596,590 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Bismillāh ir Rahmān ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allāh The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salāmu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.

There is no weakness in Qur'an, as you perceive. And while I am no big fan of Ahadith, my understanding is that there is a Science involved with accepting (and maybe applying), a hadith.

One must collect and study all of the Ahadith related to a particular topic/subject before determining its validity/authenticity. The transmitters/narrators of a hadith must be reliable, and trustworthy. One must not be a liar. Some narrators it is claimed, have admitted to fabricating Ahadith. So no one today will accept every hadith claimed to have been spoken by the Prophet Muhammad (saw).

24:52 And he who obeys Allah and His Apostle, and fears Allah, and is careful of (his duty to) Him, these it is that are the achievers.

24:54 Say: Obey Allah and obey the Apostle; but if you turn back, then on him rests that which is imposed on him and on you rests that which is imposed on you; and if you obey him, you are on the right way; and nothing rests on the Apostle but clear delivering (of the message).

033.056 Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.


The Sunnah and its role in Islamic legislation by Dr. Mustafa as-Siba'ee
No amount of Science of Ahadith [if there is such a thing] will be able to filter out the biasness from humans when adopting which hadith is genuine or not.

The only credibility any hadith [only as a note to the Quran] can have is to compare itself with what is in the Quran and no where else.
If the Quran, for example, do not state 'covering of a Muslimah's hair' or 'stoning to death for adultery', then that is final.
No Muslims in principle can add to Allah's words other than what is in the Quran, otherwise it is bidah [innovation] and shirk. No Science of Ahadith [if such is ever possible] can add anything to what is already in the Quran.
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:22 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There is enough in the Qur'an to understand that the Qur'an is the divine authority and not the hadith books written by men long after the Qur'an.
While the Quran support the point, it is a generic principle that an imperfect human being cannot independently represent Allah outside Allah's active influence.

The only time that Allah has active influence [indirectly via Gabriel] was when the Quran was revealed to Muhammad and this is perfected and completed via the 114 chapters and 6,236 verses of the Quran.

IF other than the Quran is allowed then any thing is possible to be manipulated as divine by various methods.

Actually it is your fault that you are not being precise enough about "divide into smaller groups". For humans to divide into smaller groups (families, tribes and communities) is fine. It is divisions in deen that creates sects and hostilities. This is why the Qur'an is clear about being united in deen as One Brotherhood. To say that it is the fault of the Qur'an that people split into sects is exposing one's ignorance about the Qur'an.

Quote:
God does not "allow" humans to divide into sects but human divide "themselves" into sects, and you know it well.

[33.72] Surely We offered the trust (amanah) to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to be unfaithful to it and feared from it, and man has turned unfaithful to it; surely he is unjust, ignorant.

Amanah (trust) in this verse is responsibility accepted by mankind to use reason and intellect when deciding to choose either right or wrong through free will.

It would be silly to say that if God is all powerful, why does he allow terrorists to kill innocent human beings. Should we blame God for it?
Why it is silly?
Do you understand what sort of power when an all powerful Allah can create every thing from the atomic and nuclear scale in the whole universe and reality? Reflect seriously on this.

From the above, it is very logical and rational to expect such an all powerful Allah to create humans and control them to be good. After all it is stated in the Quran glaringly Allah led the infidels astray in accordance to his will, so why not redirect the infidels to be good humans and prevent them from dividing into sects and fighting with each other.

The only reason for the above is because such an all powerful Allah who created the universe and human beings do not exist as real.
The idea of an all-powerful God was invented by humans for psychological reasons to deal with their desperate psychological existential pains and it works for them, relieve them as a balm to their existential pains and angst.

When the idea of God works to relieve their very painful psychological angst, believers will do what it take to protect that idea even thought God do not exists and real plus what God does is irrational and cannot be proven. This is why the belief in God is called faith, i.e. beliefs without need for proofs nor reason.

The point is we are not blaming God per se but rather the people who first compile the holy texts [and that immutable ideological set] for whatever personal reasons included evil laden elements with the sanction of God.
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Old 08-11-2016, 02:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
While the Quran support the point, it is a generic principle that an imperfect human being cannot independently represent Allah outside Allah's active influence.
This is the purpose of revelation from Allah to human beings; so that Allah's influence through guidance is represented by humans for their own good. That's the only way to become a godly person (otherwise known as pious or righteous person or vicegerent of Allah on earth).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The only time that Allah has active influence [indirectly via Gabriel] was when the Quran was revealed to Muhammad and this is perfected and completed via the 114 chapters and 6,236 verses of the Quran.
All human beings have been given guidance one way or the other even from the outset. The Qur'an confirms this. Complying with the guidance is human's responsibility. God does not force anyone to comply with His guidance for obvious reason; He is not in need for a human to comply with His guidance but it is the human who is in need to comply with His guidance to be a godly person for his/her own good. God has made it clear to human beings that He does not change condition of a people (from worse to better) unless they try to change it themselves (by taking His guidance). The same way, God has made it clear through the Qur'an that He does not change a people's condition from better to worse unless they do something so that they no longer deserve to be in that better condition (through the favors of God). All this is the result of human free will (responsibility of accepting accountability for his/her action).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
IF other than the Quran is allowed then any thing is possible to be manipulated as divine by various methods.
Yes, other than the Qur'an after the revelation of the Qur'an is not divine but the work of human themselves. God had made clear to Adam that He will send messages and whoever takes the guidance will not fear or grieve (2:38). God did not say to Adam, you can create your own guidance independent of His guidance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Why it is silly?
Do you understand what sort of power when an all powerful Allah can create every thing from the atomic and nuclear scale in the whole universe and reality? Reflect seriously on this.
It is silly because Allah makes it clear in the Qur'an that there is no compulsion in religion. He does not compel/force humans but only guides and it is the human who is then responsible and accountable for his/her action. This is so because human has been given brain to think and heart to understand the difference between right and wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From the above, it is very logical and rational to expect such an all powerful Allah to create humans and control them to be good.
That would not be humans with free will but programmed robots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
After all it is stated in the Quran glaringly Allah led the infidels astray in accordance to his will, so why not redirect the infidels to be good humans and prevent them from dividing into sects and fighting with each other.
This is where you lack understanding of the Qur'an to a meaningful extent. Wherever it is stated so in the Qur'an about infidels (unbelievers) it is due to their own action of unbelieving first. It wasn't Allah who made them infidels but they choose to be infidels first. Allah had guided ALL to be good humans but the infidels choose not to take that guidance. Therefore, the infidels chose to be astray and Allah helps them, as they strive, to be astray.

[53.39] And that human shall have nothing but what s/he strives for-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The only reason for the above is because such an all powerful Allah who created the universe and human beings do not exist as real.
No. It is because Allah did not create humans as robots but given them faculty of volition to choose between right and wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The idea of an all-powerful God was invented by humans for psychological reasons to deal with their desperate psychological existential pains and it works for them, relieve them as a balm to their existential pains and angst.
Who invented existence? Scientists? Infidels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
When the idea of God works to relieve their very painful psychological angst, believers will do what it take to protect that idea even thought God do not exists and real plus what God does is irrational and cannot be proven. This is why the belief in God is called faith, i.e. beliefs without need for proofs nor reason.
Faith is about unseen. Proof is about seen. Faith is not without reason. It is reasonable to believe that the universe was created out of nothing by an uncreated God. There could have been no existence without there being an uncreated existing Being. Believers believe it to be God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point is we are not blaming God per se but rather the people who first compile the holy texts [and that immutable ideological set] for whatever personal reasons included evil laden elements with the sanction of God.
It is illogical to blame God or even anyone who wrote the text in view of the people who have benefited from it and are still peaceful human beings after reading the same text.

It is illogical to blame the text due to the action of a minority and not praise the text for the action of the majority based on the same text.
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