U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-10-2016, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

11:5. Lo! now they [infidels] fold up their breasts that they may hide (their thoughts) from Him. At the very moment when they [infidels] cover themselves with their clothing, Allah knoweth that which they [infidels] keep hidden and that which they [infidels] proclaim. Lo! He is Aware of what is in the breasts (of men).
Re the above verse, what do Muslims think is hidden in the breasts?
Pickthall put (their thoughts) and (of men) in his translation.
Do you agree?

If what is hidden in the breasts of men are 'their thoughts,' are thoughts really hidden in the breasts of humans?

In addition 11:5 stated 'infidels' cover themselves with their clothing.
Can clothing hide thoughts if not what?

Discuss?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-10-2016, 02:45 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
11:5. Lo! now they [infidels] fold up their breasts that they may hide (their thoughts) from Him. At the very moment when they [infidels] cover themselves with their clothing, Allah knoweth that which they [infidels] keep hidden and that which they [infidels] proclaim. Lo! He is Aware of what is in the breasts (of men).
Re the above verse, what do Muslims think is hidden in the breasts?
Pickthall put (their thoughts) and (of men) in his translation.
Do you agree?

If what is hidden in the breasts of men are 'their thoughts,' are thoughts really hidden in the breasts of humans?

In addition 11:5 stated 'infidels' cover themselves with their clothing.
Can clothing hide thoughts if not what?

Discuss?
[11.5] Now surely they fold up their breasts that they may conceal (their enmity) from Him; now surely, when they use their garments as a covering, He knows what they conceal and what they make public; surely He knows what is in the breasts. (Shakir)

[11:5] Oh, verily, they [who are bent on denying the truth of this divine writ] are enshrouding their hearts in order to hide from Him. 7 Oh, verily, [even] when they cover themselves with their garments [in order not to see or hear], 8 He knows all that they keep secret as well as all that they bring into the open - for, behold, He has full knowledge of what is in the hearts [of men]. (Asad)

Note - 7
Since the people referred to in this verse obviously do not believe in the divine origin of Muhammad's message, their "hiding from God" can have, in this context, only one meaning - namely, that of a metaphor for their unwillingness to listen to the truth which emanates from Him: and this also explains the statement that they are "enshrouding their hearts" (lit., "bosoms", as at the end of this verse), i.e., are allowing their hearts and minds to remain wrapped-up in prejudices, thus making them impervious to spiritual perception. See in this connection 8:55 and the corresponding note [58].

Note - 8
The above interpolation corresponds to the meaning given to the preceding phrase by most of the lexicographers (cf. Lane VI, 2262).

[11:5] Behold! they fold up their hearts that they may lie hid from Him! Ah! even when they cover themselves with their garments He knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal: for He knoweth well the (inmost secrets) of the hearts. (Yusuf Ali)

Love is in the heart (heart is symbol of love) and so is hate, enmity and hypocrisy. When heart stops, it all ends there and then.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2016, 12:08 PM
 
10,540 posts, read 15,612,109 times
Reputation: 11857
Yes, verse is correct.
Thinking origins in the area of a physical heart and then is issued through upward movement into the brain and exits through roughly frontal sinuses areas.
Brain activity during thinking, so much claimed as proof to humans thinking with brain, is only reflection of thinking done in one's mental atmosphere in the heart region.
This is why it is also known in various cultures and religions.
"Speaking from your heart" is simple English equivalent to this.
This is also why so many place their hand onto their heart area when "speaking the truth" or greeting someone "from the depth of one's heart".
One's "heart" is historically considered one's source of morals and ethics.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2016, 12:10 PM
 
10,540 posts, read 15,612,109 times
Reputation: 11857
Here's a great example of how much brain is over rated

Girl Thriving Years After Having Half Her Brain Removed CBS Baltimore
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2016, 12:44 PM
 
10,540 posts, read 15,612,109 times
Reputation: 11857
The New Testament and the teaching of Jesus advance this perspective. The 150 or so uses of
‘heart’ (kardia) from Matthew to Revelation demonstrate that it is “the main organ of psychic and spiritual life, the place in man at which God bears witness to himself, . . . the whole of the inner being of man in
contrast to his external side, . . . the one center in man to which God turns, in which the religious life is
rooted, which determines moral conduct.”
4 Indeed, according to various New Testament authors, the heart is the psychic center of human affections (Matt. 22: 37-39; John 14: 1, 27; 2 Cor. 2: 4), the source of the spiritual life (Acts 8: 21; Rom. 2: 29; 2 Cor. 3: 3), and the sseat of the intellect and the will (Rom. 1: 21; 2
Cor. 9: 7; Heb. 4: 12).

http://www3.dbu.edu/naugle/pdf/insti...ical_heart.pdf
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2016, 12:46 PM
 
10,540 posts, read 15,612,109 times
Reputation: 11857
Human voice of conscience speaks through the heart. this is why, when something against The Truth is conceived by human mind, there is that sensation of unease about the heart area.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2016, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
[11.5] Now surely they fold up their breasts that they may conceal (their enmity) from Him; now surely, when they use their garments as a covering, He knows what they conceal and what they make public; surely He knows what is in the breasts. (Shakir)

[11:5] Oh, verily, they [who are bent on denying the truth of this divine writ] are enshrouding their hearts in order to hide from Him. 7 Oh, verily, [even] when they cover themselves with their garments [in order not to see or hear], 8 He knows all that they keep secret as well as all that they bring into the open - for, behold, He has full knowledge of what is in the hearts [of men]. (Asad)

Note - 7
Since the people referred to in this verse obviously do not believe in the divine origin of Muhammad's message, their "hiding from God" can have, in this context, only one meaning - namely, that of a metaphor for their unwillingness to listen to the truth which emanates from Him: and this also explains the statement that they are "enshrouding their hearts" (lit., "bosoms", as at the end of this verse), i.e., are allowing their hearts and minds to remain wrapped-up in prejudices, thus making them impervious to spiritual perception. See in this connection 8:55 and the corresponding note [58].

Note - 8
The above interpolation corresponds to the meaning given to the preceding phrase by most of the lexicographers (cf. Lane VI, 2262).

[11:5] Behold! they fold up their hearts that they may lie hid from Him! Ah! even when they cover themselves with their garments He knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal: for He knoweth well the (inmost secrets) of the hearts. (Yusuf Ali)

Love is in the heart (heart is symbol of love) and so is hate, enmity and hypocrisy. When heart stops, it all ends there and then.
Your note 7 stretch to include the term "minds" which allude to the fact that thoughts are more significant to the brain/mind than the heart.

As I had mentioned, the heart is no doubt critical for survival but it is not the most critical organ for a human being to function at the sub-conscious and conscious operational levels. The heart is critical for all living things that has a heart but it is not the most critical to define what is a human being.

The significance of the brain over the heart is a human being can function with an artificial heart and a heart transplant from another human being but can a human survives as a human being with an artificial brain or can even a brain transplant be possible at all without the critical aspect of the thinking of the person.

As I had posted earlier, why the heart was the focus of people in the olden days [even now in some cases] is because the heartbeat is very noticeable and catches one attention rather than the critical processes in the brain.
Quote:
Love is in the heart (heart is symbol of love) and so is hate, enmity and hypocrisy. When heart stops, it all ends there and then.
This is pure ignorance of human nature, i.e. neuroscience, neuropsychology, neuro-psychiatry. Love, hate, enmity and hypocrisy are primary and secondary emotions which are the focus of the limbic brain.
Animals [reptiles, fishes, etc.] also have a heart but they don't express love, hate, and other basic emotions like humans do. The higher primates do exercise certain emotions like humans but at a cruder level and that is because they have a more complex brain.
So it is the brain that is the determining factor in the aspects of love, hate, sadness and other emotions.

Don't insult your intelligence with the above claims. I suggest you do lots of research on human emotions. I have done extensive research on human emotions and its various controversial issues.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2016, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Yes, verse is correct.
Thinking origins in the area of a physical heart and then is issued through upward movement into the brain and exits through roughly frontal sinuses areas.
Brain activity during thinking, so much claimed as proof to humans thinking with brain, is only reflection of thinking done in one's mental atmosphere in the heart region.
This is why it is also known in various cultures and religions.
"Speaking from your heart" is simple English equivalent to this.
This is also why so many place their hand onto their heart area when "speaking the truth" or greeting someone "from the depth of one's heart".
One's "heart" is historically considered one's source of morals and ethics.
Note my points above on why the elements of the brain is more significant than elements of the hearts as far as human thoughts, consciousness [including the sub-conscious] is concern.

The only reason why the "heart" is referred to in the olden days is because of their ignorance of neuroscience [physical and mental] and the significance of the brain. Many are still focusing on the 'heart' because the complex subject of the various neurosciences [primary and secondary] is still very new.
Instead of "heart" in future the term "limbic" and other related terms will be used to be more precise.

I agree the human heart do have some relation to thoughts. In fact every part of the human body [especially the genitals, chemicals in the blood] has some influence on the brain and one's thoughts but their influence are not significant when compare to the specific faculty of instincts, emotions, intellect, reasons, and other faculties that are related to the higher consciousness that define what is a human being as different from all other animals with a heart.

What is critical here is the need to identify the specific neural circuits in the brain so that humans can control the various impulses of emotions [anger, hate, sadness, etc.] for the overall benefit of humanity. Even at present many can use their brain/mind to control their heart but not the other way around.

Quote:
PROMINENT among the many claims of unusual bodily control that emanate from practitioners of Yoga is the ability to stop the heart and radial pulse.
Such claims often have been authenticated by physicians, and one "experiment" employed a loud-speaker system so that a large crowd could hear the heart sounds before and after their disappearance.
To our knowledge, however, only one investigator had published electrocardiographic results before the work now reported.
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/.../1319.full.pdf
Note there are loads of experiments done to substantiate a person using the mind [brain] to control the heart.
In addition any one can do it [if practiced correctly] to convince themselves of the possibility.

The concept of the criticalness of the heart in terms of emotions and thoughts is very primitive and due to ignorance. The focus of the future direction of what is being human is the brain/mind.

So do you want to be stuck with primitive or modern knowledge?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2016, 01:56 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your note 7 stretch to include the term "minds" which allude to the fact that thoughts are more significant to the brain/mind than the heart.
Both mind and heart are used to receive information and react to it. There would be no reaction from heart unless the information reaches the heart. Reaction/expression then is from the heart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had mentioned, the heart is no doubt critical for survival but it is not the most critical organ for a human being to function at the sub-conscious and conscious operational levels. The heart is critical for all living things that has a heart but it is not the most critical to define what is a human being.
We are not talking here about what is human being or what is most critical element to define a human being. We are talking about stupid infidels not understanding the message through their brains and their reaction to it through their hearts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The significance of the brain over the heart is a human being can function with an artificial heart and a heart transplant from another human being but can a human survives as a human being with an artificial brain or can even a brain transplant be possible at all without the critical aspect of the thinking of the person.
A person is living as long as his heart is functioning even when he is brain dead. But if brain is not dead but heart stops, brain will die too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had posted earlier, why the heart was the focus of people in the olden days [even now in some cases] is because the heartbeat is very noticeable and catches one attention rather than the critical processes in the brain.
Process in the heart is critical in expression/reaction to any information already received. If heart wasn't aware of the information received, there would be no reaction from it such as love and hate. Heart is central to living humans and their reactions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is pure ignorance of human nature, i.e. neuroscience, neuropsychology, neuro-psychiatry. Love, hate, enmity and hypocrisy are primary and secondary emotions which are the focus of the limbic brain.
Reaction is always through the heart as witnessed by the heart beat and changes in the blood pressure. It means the information has been relayed to the heart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Animals [reptiles, fishes, etc.] also have a heart but they don't express love, hate, and other basic emotions like humans do.
All animals have heart. Even a dog is more faithful to his master than a human. Doesn't that mean that a dog has more love for his master than a human has for his Master?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The higher primates do exercise certain emotions like humans but at a cruder level and that is because they have a more complex brain.

So it is the brain that is the determining factor in the aspects of love, hate, sadness and other emotions.
Information determining is done by the brain but the reaction to it always through the heart or else there would be no difference in heart beat and difference in blood pressure.

Funny how love is in the hearts of infidels but when it comes to Muslims it should be in their brains only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Don't insult your intelligence with the above claims. I suggest you do lots of research on human emotions. I have done extensive research on human emotions and its various controversial issues.
I knew you would soon jump from breasts of infidels to teaching us neuroscience. Don't worry, when your heart stops functioning you will have no love or hate for anything. Even your brain depends on your heart.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2016, 02:14 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree the human heart do have some relation to thoughts. In fact every part of the human body [especially the genitals, chemicals in the blood] has some influence on the brain and one's thoughts but their influence are not significant when compare to the specific faculty of instincts, emotions, intellect, reasons, and other faculties that are related to the higher consciousness that define what is a human being as different from all other animals with a heart.
Not only the human heart has some relation to thoughts but the brain cannot function without input from the heart. It is the heart that helps to keep the brain functioning rather than the other way round. Heart can keep beating even if the brain is dead but brain cannot function unless heart is functioning too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top