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Old 08-22-2016, 01:43 AM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,051,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is a purely stupid claim based merely on wishful thinking and with no proofs and justifications at all.

Logically and rationally there is no way you can ever retrieve Quran-A at all and then compare what is in the memory of all the hafiz at present, i.e.
1. First Allah will not appear empirically to repeat Quran-A to be recorded in a credible tape recorder for reference and comparison.

2. It is impossible for a 100% fidelity transmission from Allah to Gabriel and then to a fallible human being like Muhammad.

3. There are so much constraints, limitations and other hindrances that had prevented Muhammad from a 100% perfect oral transmission to various listeners and scribes.

4. There are also many human factors, constraints, limitations and other hindrances that prevent a 100% transmission from the scribes to the full compilation of the Quran.

5. There are also many human factors, constraints, limitations and other hindrances that prevent a 100% word for word and dot-for-dot transmision of the Quran from the 8th century to the present.

6. The above 1-6 limitations are the reasons why we have 26 [could be more] different Arabic Qurans in the hands of various groups of Muslims.
Note I have presented the above points in details [which you MUST take note] elsewhere.

I understand and anticipate you will & can never accept the above reality and truths because you are imprisoned by your biasness and denial at all cost to ensure your faith is secured. I can only hope you will wake up someday to smell and appreciate reality if that ever happened.
Continuum,

What you are presenting here is your imagination and stupid wishful thinking. The reality is that the original Qur'an has been memorized from the outset until today by the thousands and thousands of people and the preservation process is ongoing. Therefore, there is only One valid written Qur'an that can be confirmed by now millions of hafiz of it all over the world.

Your argument has no leg to stand on. You are wasting your time in ignorance of the reality about preservation of the Qur'an.
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Old 08-22-2016, 02:33 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,597,945 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,

What you are presenting here is your imagination and stupid wishful thinking. The reality is that the original Qur'an has been memorized from the outset until today by the thousands and thousands of people and the preservation process is ongoing. Therefore, there is only One valid written Qur'an that can be confirmed by now millions of hafiz of it all over the world.

Your argument has no leg to stand on. You are wasting your time in ignorance of the reality about preservation of the Qur'an.
You are kicking your own backside in accusing mine as "stupid wishful thinking" ignorantly just for the sake of condemning without being realistic at all.

Btw, what I have presented are possible factual events plus actual evidences as proof, i.e. the actual 26 different Arabic Qurans.

The other contention which we [me and you] don't have conclusive evidence is,
are the hafiz of the respective different Qurans are reciting only one version of the Quran?

I don't believe the thousands of hafiz are reciting the SAME one Quran because the respective hafiz with the different Arabic Quran must recite in accordance to their respective Arabic Quran.

If hafiz A has Quran-A, then he must recite in accordance to Quran-A.
If hafiz B has Quran-B, then he must recite in accordance to Quran-B.
The fact is the Arabic Quran-A and Quran-B has differences.
Therefore all the hafiz in the world cannot recite the SAME Quran, word-for-word and dot-for-dot.
This is a very logical and rational conclusion.

How do you know ALL the hafiz are reciting the SAME Quran, word-for-word and dot-for-dot?
Have you checked and listened to ALL the hafizs' recitations and confirm they are word-for-word and dot-for-dot the same?
Therefore yours is pure imagination and stupid wishful thinking.

And by the way, ultimately your views are delusional because your first starting premise is delusional because there is no way you can prove your God and angel Gabriel who revealed and communicate the Quran can exists as real entities.
So you have a double barrel pointing at you to blast off your imaginations.

Quote:
Therefore, there is only One valid written Qur'an that can be confirmed by now millions of hafiz of it all over the world.
This is a crazy ostrich thinking.
I have already shown you physical proofs there are 26 different Arabic Quran in writing.

What you are hanging on is merely based on a thin thread of THEORY that Allah had revealed an uncorrupted Quran to Muhammad, but you totally ignore reality that, that theoretical Quran MUST be [no other choice] filtered through fallible humans.
When filtered through fallible humans, it will naturally be corrupted and I have supported this claim with real proofs of different Arabic Qurans existing at present.
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Old 08-22-2016, 02:56 AM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,051,162 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are kicking your own backside in accusing mine as "stupid wishful thinking" ignorantly just for the sake of condemning without being realistic at all.
You can kick your backside when none of these 25 or 26 fake qurans are accepted as valid by Muslims, and are memorized by no other than the fakers themselves.
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Old 08-22-2016, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,597,945 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You can kick your backside when none of these 25 or 26 fake qurans are accepted as valid by Muslims, and are memorized by no other than the fakers themselves.
You are condemning yourself again here.

The Arabic Quran[s] you are relying upon is definitely one of those 26 Arabic Qurans I mentioned.
If you are condemning the 26 Qurans as fakes then you are condemning the Arabic Quran you relied upon as a fake.

Btw, which of the Arabic Quran are you using?
It is most likely the 'Reader' was Abu Bakr `Asim (from Kufah; d. 158/778).
It is the Hafs version.
The transmitter who put it into text was Ibn `Ayyash.

Note my claim is;
The 26[+?] different Arabic Quran[s] that Muslims at present cannot be word-for-word and dot-for-dot the same as the one that was revealed by Allah [if exists] to Gabriel [if exists] to Muhammad [if exists].
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Old 08-27-2016, 04:44 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,051,162 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are condemning yourself again here.

The Arabic Quran[s] you are relying upon is definitely one of those 26 Arabic Qurans I mentioned.
If you are condemning the 26 Qurans as fakes then you are condemning the Arabic Quran you relied upon as a fake.
Then (a) there could be only 25 fake qurans and (b) the Qur'an I rely upon is the present Qur'an and the original Qur'an that has millions of hafiz in the world. The rest are fake qurans without millions of hafiz.
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Old 08-27-2016, 04:49 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,051,162 times
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By the way, why don't you quote here the words in the 25 fake qurans to show that they are different from the words is Qur'an found in Muslim homes as well as in all the mosques of the world?
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Old 11-21-2016, 12:28 AM
 
2 posts, read 644 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I did listen to the whole of it. It was quite amusing to see ignorant people talking about the Qur'an. They can't even read Arabic, how are they to know the difference?

It is a false claim. If there had been different Qur'an, there would be many hafiz reciting different in words and letters. There are no such hafiz, never have been.

The attack on the Qur'an is simply because of the fact that this is the only book that is word by word the Word of God. It is the Rock of Islam. I like it, I like it, I like it and will like it for as long as I live. Thank God I am a Muslim!

Video has proven nothing. No hafiz is reciting any other quran than the Qur'an.

Which publishers in the world? Christian publishers?

All Muslim publishers print the same Arabic Qur'an as the main press in Madina. There are thousands of the Arabic Qur'an copies printed in ALL main Muslim countries. I have seen them from Pakistan and even India (where millions of Muslims live) as well as from Al Fahd press in Madina. They are all same word by word. The Arabic Qur'an I used to read 60 years ago was exactly the same as available today.

This is one subject that non-Muslims will fail in.
،السلام عليكم
Khalif please can you tell me if the two persons on this horrible video know arabic language or writting?
Sorry i have a poor english and the video isn't subtitle so is hard for me to understand.
And i think the differences of yours two Qurans come from the fact that in Marocco they read in warch qari'at and in Medina in hafs qari'at.
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Old 11-21-2016, 11:58 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,051,162 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorayaoumleynassiya View Post
،السلام عليكم
Khalif please can you tell me if the two persons on this horrible video know arabic language or writting?
وعليكم السلام

They have no knowledge of Arabic. They are mere Christian evangelists trying to discredit the Qur'an.

Quote:
Sorry i have a poor english and the video isn't subtitle so is hard for me to understand.
And i think the differences of yours two Qurans come from the fact that in Marocco they read in warch qari'at and in Medina in hafs qari'at.
It does not matter how they read. Word "tomato" is read differently in UK than in USA but it is written the same way in English.

The words cannot be changed as they are memorized the same way by millions of hafiz all over the world.
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Old 11-22-2016, 12:08 AM
 
2 posts, read 644 times
Reputation: 10
Right! When you listen any recitator in youtube for example, it is the same words plasmodied الله اكبر.
So they find several differences in translation of Quran or what??
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Old 11-22-2016, 01:55 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 668,540 times
Reputation: 204
Muslims claim that the current Koran is the same as in the era of Muhammad
But this speech is unacceptable reason is simple
The Quran is written in ancient Arabic language and this was without points on the letters
This is an important issue in the Koran
Many people do not know

That's why I think the difference is imperative in the Qur'an

It is written in Islamic books
The Umayyad caliph Abd al-Malik Ibn Marwan is the one who gave the order to dotting the Koran

This means that the Quran has undergone a process of development
It is our right to ask
Does the Koran is saved with the points on the characters or is not used Points

And give you a simple example
The character
ن
وت وث وب

It is the same shape, but the difference between them is the place of the points
This creates a big problem for put points on the interconnected words

The same case with letters
ج-و-ح-و خ-

For this reason I believe that the Koran has been revised in the course of the King Abdul-Malik Ibn Marwan life
And also
Do not forget that the Caliph Uthman Ibn Affan
It gave the order to burn the Koran during his thirty
That Muslims who knows him well
The cause of the burn is the differences between them

For this reason, there could be differences in the text of the Quran but Muslims are using exegesis as a way to hide these differences
I thank these researchers because they provide service to humanity even escape from a serious illness called Islam
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