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Old 08-10-2016, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Muslims often claim the following;
1. The present Quran is exactly the same as the Arabic Quran that was revealed to Muhammad in 623AD.
2. There are no omissions because the Hafiz[s] could memorize the Quran perfectly.
3. The Arabic sounding and structure facilitated the memorization of the Quran throughout its 1,400 history.
4. Other reasons.

However this research prove the above is not true, i.e.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msY5IHtXxS8

The above exercise compared the Quran in the Arabic language [not translations] from various parts of the Muslim world emerging from the various centuries from 8th century & later and found various discrepancies in term of words, grammar, language elements that has an impact on the meaning of the statements.

Arabic is a very sensitive and precise language in terms of recitations and writing. Different and missing diacritic marks [e.g. fatha, kasrah, dammah & others] to the consonants can easily change the meaning of the words.

A comparison between only two Quran revealed more than 1,000 discrepancies. There will be more when these researchers analyze and compare more Qurans and obtain more than the 26 Arabic Qurans for analysis.

For those who are serious on the authenticity of one's Quran, it is recommended one listen to the video above because the Quran you have on hand definitely contain lots of discrepancies when compared to the others.

If there are more than 26 different Qurans in the Arabic language in the world and all have discrepancies between them, which one is the true Quran that is the same as the original one revealed to Muhammad in 623AD?

Last edited by Continuum; 08-10-2016 at 11:13 PM..
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Old 08-10-2016, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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I wonder which of the 26 Qurans was used by Pickthall to translate into his translated Quran in English?
I did some searching in the net but no information available on this.
Perhaps every one [including me] assumed regardless of which Arabic Quran, they are all the same, but the OP show that is not the case in reality.

Any one know?

Last edited by Continuum; 08-10-2016 at 11:14 PM..
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Old 08-10-2016, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Another question;

IF Muslims insist the Quran must be read in Arabic, then which Arabic version should one read to ensure one is reading the original version recited to Muhammad in 623AD?


Another interesting point in the video [an the end];
Muslims when faced with the accusations re the OP, they will deflect and questioned;
What about the Bible?
They provide a very good counter to the above question towards the end of the video. Listen to it and give counter points if any.
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Old 08-11-2016, 02:57 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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There is only one Arabic Qur'an, word by word and letter by letter in the world.

All hafiz have memorized the same one Qur'an word by word and letter by letter for centuries. It is easy for them to reject the wrongly printed Qur'an.

The main press for the Arabic Qur'an in Madina prints over 25 thousands of Arabic Qur'an every day. One small omission or addition even in fatha, kasrah or dammah will end the print there and then.

Basically, there is no word or letter difference in any Arabic Qur'an unless one is printed deliberately for such purpose. There would be no value to such a Qur'an.
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Old 08-11-2016, 02:25 PM
 
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The only way there can be 26 different Arabic Qur'an in the world is if there are hafiz reciting 26 different Arabic Qur'an today. Every hafiz in the world recites the Arabic Qur'an in exactly the same way word by word and letter by letter.

In order to prove themselves right, I can see these Christians learning to recite the Arabic Qur'an very soon; in about another two thousand years' time.
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Old 08-11-2016, 11:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The only way there can be 26 different Arabic Qur'an in the world is if there are hafiz reciting 26 different Arabic Qur'an today. Every hafiz in the world recites the Arabic Qur'an in exactly the same way word by word and letter by letter.

In order to prove themselves right, I can see these Christians learning to recite the Arabic Qur'an very soon; in about another two thousand years' time.
Looks like it is obvious you did not listen to what is claimed in the video in the OP.

Note the differences of the Quran as claimed in the video started from the 8th century.
The video made a very serious claim. I suggest you listen to it.

Quote:
Every hafiz in the world recites the Arabic Qur'an in exactly the same way word by word and letter by letter.
That is what you think which the same as what every one [including me] has been told and think.

What the above video has proven is there are many written Qurans from various ages and they have lots of differences between them.

Therefore your claim below is not true,
Quote:
There is only one Arabic Qur'an, word by word and letter by letter in the world.

All hafiz have memorized the same one Qur'an word by word and letter by letter for centuries. It is easy for them to reject the wrongly printed Qur'an.

Quote:
The main press for the Arabic Qur'an in Madina prints over 25 thousands of Arabic Qur'an every day. One small omission or addition even in fatha, kasrah or dammah will end the print there and then.

Basically, there is no word or letter difference in any Arabic Qur'an unless one is printed deliberately for such purpose. There would be no value to such a Qur'an.
The fact is the main press in Madina prints only one version of the Arabic Quran.
But there are different versions printed by other publishers from other parts of the world other than the one in Madina.
Listen to the video to get the point.
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Old 08-12-2016, 02:35 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Note the video mentioned the sources of the written Quran via the Hafs and Warsh sources;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%2...Hafs_and_Warsh
In Islam, Qira'at, which means literally the readings, terminologically means the method of recitation. Traditionally, there are 10 recognised schools of qira'at, and each one derives its name from a famous reader of Quran recitation. Each Qira'at is then transmitted via a riwaya (transmission) named after its primary narrator. Each of the riwayas is the whole of the Qur'an as recited by a master in all the variants which are transmitted from him. It is a corupus of recitation. The forms of each recitation are referred to by the notable students of the master who recited them. So we will find the turuq (transmission lines) of so-and-so, the student of the master. Then under the Turuq, there are also the wujuh. We find the wajh of so-and-so from the tariq of so-and-so. There are about twenty riwayat and eighty turuq.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsh
Abu Sa'id Uthman Ibn Sa‘id al-Qutbi, better known as Warsh (110-197AH), was a significant figure in the history of the Qira'at, or canonical methods of reciting the Qur'an.
Here is how the process of corruption of the texts will creep in;
1. First we start with the supposedly original recitations in Arabic to Muhammad.

2. The original recitations are put into texts.

3. While putting into texts, errors and corruptions [intended or unintended are made].

4. The point is the later reciters will naturally aligned with the corrupted written texts [books] they have on hand over various generations.

5. Further errors could be made and when the original texts [books] are lost, the further errors will be carry forward to the present Quran.

6. From the root to the various branches till the present there will be different Arabic versions of the Quran as evidenced by the 26 Qurans presented in the Video. There could be more than 26 Arabic Quran which are claimed to be the same as the original.
The question is which one is the real original when all the 26 Arabic Qurans are different?

Khalif, are sure the Arabic Quran you are referring on hand is the same as the original when 25 others [known to date] are different from yours in terms of grammar and meanings??



Don't you think the OIC should form a committee to standardize and codified all the different Qurans into one standard Quran [keep one in a very safe vault for ultimate reference] for all Muslims and to save Muslims the embarrassment.

I wonder which Muslim sect would be willing to allow their version to be altered.

But then the fact remained, the original version [cannot be found] would have been altered and "corrupted" by the present version thus smashing the claim by Muslim that the present Quran is word for word and sentence for sentence the SAME as the original revelation revealed to Muhammad from 623AD.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-12-2016 at 02:46 AM..
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Old 08-12-2016, 03:54 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the video mentioned the sources of the written Quran via the Hafs and Warsh sources;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%2...Hafs_and_Warsh
In Islam, Qira'at, which means literally the readings, terminologically means the method of recitation. Traditionally, there are 10 recognised schools of qira'at, and each one derives its name from a famous reader of Quran recitation. Each Qira'at is then transmitted via a riwaya (transmission) named after its primary narrator. Each of the riwayas is the whole of the Qur'an as recited by a master in all the variants which are transmitted from him. It is a corupus of recitation. The forms of each recitation are referred to by the notable students of the master who recited them. So we will find the turuq (transmission lines) of so-and-so, the student of the master. Then under the Turuq, there are also the wujuh. We find the wajh of so-and-so from the tariq of so-and-so. There are about twenty riwayat and eighty turuq.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsh
Abu Sa'id Uthman Ibn Sa‘id al-Qutbi, better known as Warsh (110-197AH), was a significant figure in the history of the Qira'at, or canonical methods of reciting the Qur'an.
All this has nothing to do with the written text of the Qur'an but how one recites; fast, slow. with rhythm etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is how the process of corruption of the texts will creep in;
1. First we start with the supposedly original recitations in Arabic to Muhammad.

2. The original recitations are put into texts.

3. While putting into texts, errors and corruptions [intended or unintended are made].

4. The point is the later reciters will naturally aligned with the corrupted written texts [books] they have on hand over various generations.

5. Further errors could be made and when the original texts [books] are lost, the further errors will be carry forward to the present Quran.

6. From the root to the various branches till the present there will be different Arabic versions of the Quran as evidenced by the 26 Qurans presented in the Video. There could be more than 26 Arabic Quran which are claimed to be the same as the original.
Very poor mental gymnastics! Only a stupid person will do such gymnastics about the Qur'an when each Arabic Qur'an in the world today is the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The question is which one is the real original when all the 26 Arabic Qurans are different?
There are no different Qurans in the world today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Khalif, are sure the Arabic Quran you are referring on hand is the same as the original when 25 others [known to date] are different from yours in terms of grammar and meanings??
Where are those 25 "different" qurans today? I have never seen any of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Don't you think the OIC should form a committee to standardize and codified all the different Qurans into one standard Quran [keep one in a very safe vault for ultimate reference] for all Muslims and to save Muslims the embarrassment.
It's not an embarrassment to Muslims but stupidity of some non-muslims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But then the fact remained, the original version [cannot be found] would have been altered and "corrupted" by the present version thus smashing the claim by Muslim that the present Quran is word for word and sentence for sentence the SAME as the original revelation revealed to Muhammad from 623AD.
No chance! All hafiz have been reciting the same text word by word and letter by letter since the Qur'an was revealed.
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Old 08-12-2016, 04:14 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Looks like it is obvious you did not listen to what is claimed in the video in the OP.
I did listen to the whole of it. It was quite amusing to see ignorant people talking about the Qur'an. They can't even read Arabic, how are they to know the difference?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the differences of the Quran as claimed in the video started from the 8th century.
The video made a very serious claim. I suggest you listen to it.
It is a false claim. If there had been different Qur'an, there would be many hafiz reciting different in words and letters. There are no such hafiz, never have been.

The attack on the Qur'an is simply because of the fact that this is the only book that is word by word the Word of God. It is the Rock of Islam. I like it, I like it, I like it and will like it for as long as I live. Thank God I am a Muslim!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What the above video has proven is there are many written Qurans from various ages and they have lots of differences between them.
Video has proven nothing. No hafiz is reciting any other quran than the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The fact is the main press in Madina prints only one version of the Arabic Quran.
But there are different versions printed by other publishers from other parts of the world other than the one in Madina.
Which publishers in the world? Christian publishers?

All Muslim publishers print the same Arabic Qur'an as the main press in Madina. There are thousands of the Arabic Qur'an copies printed in ALL main Muslim countries. I have seen them from Pakistan and even India (where millions of Muslims live) as well as from Al Fahd press in Madina. They are all same word by word. The Arabic Qur'an I used to read 60 years ago was exactly the same as available today.

This is one subject that non-Muslims will fail in.
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Old 08-12-2016, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I did listen to the whole of it. It was quite amusing to see ignorant people talking about the Qur'an. They can't even read Arabic, how are they to know the difference?

It is a false claim. If there had been different Qur'an, there would be many hafiz reciting different in words and letters. There are no such hafiz, never have been.

The attack on the Qur'an is simply because of the fact that this is the only book that is word by word the Word of God. It is the Rock of Islam. I like it, I like it, I like it and will like it for as long as I live. Thank God I am a Muslim!

Video has proven nothing. No hafiz is reciting any other quran than the Qur'an.

Which publishers in the world? Christian publishers?

All Muslim publishers print the same Arabic Qur'an as the main press in Madina. There are thousands of the Arabic Qur'an copies printed in ALL main Muslim countries. I have seen them from Pakistan and even India (where millions of Muslims live) as well as from Al Fahd press in Madina. They are all same word by word. The Arabic Qur'an I used to read 60 years ago was exactly the same as available today.

This is one subject that non-Muslims will fail in.
My old Qur'an which I got in 1960 in Morocco was printed in Morocco and is identical with my newest one printed in Medina. But I am aware of some being printed with different pronunciation marks. I think this may be from an attempt to centralize written Arabic, which does differ from nation to nation.


The only true Qur'an is the Recitation by the Hafiz.

The early written Qur'ans had no pronunciation marks, Punctuation, line numbers and each word was written with just the 3 consonants of the root word. It was not originally a tool to learn from but a guide to help the Hafiz memorize.

At the time the Qur'an was revealed Arabic was not yet a written language with grammar rules, punctuation etc all written versions are attempts to develop a phonetic spelling to match the Tajweed pronunciation. Not all were successful, to get the proper pronunciation the Hafiz are still the best source.

A problem exists as the pronunciation marks do not always carry the same pronunciation is every dialect. No matter how close to the Tajweed pronunciation marks come or what dialect of Arabic a Qur'an is written in, one will not learn proper pronunciation without the tutelage of a Hafiz.

Hopefully and ideally a translator of the Qur'an would be hafiz and know proper Tajweed. From what I have read of Pickthall he had memorized a large portion of the Qur'an and could recite with Tajweed even before he reverted to Islam. My biggest complaint of Pickthall is he attempted to translate into the English of the KJV.

I am not certain about Abdullah Ali, but am certain he used Pickthall's translation as a guide. I believe Ali's translation is basically a replication of Pickthall with portions updated to reflect changes in the English language.

Point being it does seem that Muslim translators use the Hafiz recitations for their source of the Qur'an.
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