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Old 08-16-2016, 12:17 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the default is ALL normal Muslims will attempt to comply to the terms and conditions of being a Muslim to the best of their ability.
You are ignorant of reality that most Muslims today do not even bother complying to the terms and conditions of being a Muslim.

To most non-Muslims, just a shout of "ALLAHU AKBAR" is enough for that person to be regarded a Muslim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Obviously they as human beings will sin but the majority will not commit serious sin that will not be forgiven by Allah.
Even after reading the Qur'an translations 60 times, you still haven't understood that committing Shirk is not the only unpardonable sin in Islam. Iblis wasn't pardoned for a different sin.
Further, accumulation of sins heavier than accumulation of good deeds will also be unpardonable on the Day of Judgment. Killing an innocent person intentionally is an unpardonable sin. ISIS members are doing exactly that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is not possible for us to find out what is really going on within ISIS in Iraq. However listening to the preachers who are strongly oriented to the thinking of ISIS we can get an idea of their expectations and behavior. I have listened to quite a lot of the talks of Anjem Choudary and his likes who has no hesitations in letting you know what he expect to do as a Muslim.
And you have by now read quite a few of my posts in this forum. Why are you interested in a convicted criminal like Anjem Choudary's behavior, having had pledged allegiance to ISIS but not of 80% (your figure) of peaceful Muslims who have not pledged allegiance to ISIS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note this guy, he is very well verse with the Quran, appearing in CNN and various talk shows before he went to Syria;
You think otherwise?
There are lots of guys who are supposed to be "well versed" with the Qur'an. You are well versed with the Qur'an. I am well versed with the Qur'an. How come only the "well versed" criminals get convicted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note since this can be easily be verified with the University of Baghdad so I don't think the BBC will dare to lie about it. This point is reported all over the internet.
I am not saying the report is false but has anyone checked with University of Baghdad before claiming that he has PhD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Do not have any proofs or reports of doubts that it is not the case, i.e. Al-Baghdadi did not have a PhD from the University of Baghdad.
But what is source for this information?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I know. That is not the point. The point is they are Muslims and they have various levels of understanding of the Sharia and Quran.
The point is they are playing politics; not advancing the Sharia and Qur'anic knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Those Syrians [Sunni] jihadist fighting Asad [Shia] are not fighting foreigners invading their country.
Actually they are inspired by the Quran who exhort Muslims go abroad to risk their lives fighting for the cause of Allah and if they die as martyr they will be specially rewarded.
Where does the Qur'an "exhort Muslims to go abroad to risk their lives fighting for Allah"?
If you have read the Qur'an 60 times, you will have no problem quoting the verse that says to Muslims to, "go abroad to risk your lives fighting for Allah"?

Another mental gymnastic time. Continuum! It's fault of the forelock!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is the problem with the Quran which exhorted Muslims to do such a thing instead of fighting through the proper conventional channels of war instead of a theological based war which has no overriding moral maxim.
You will have prove from the Qur'an if you are truthful!

Making false claims against the Qur'an is doing an irreparable damage to your credibility in this forum.
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Old 08-16-2016, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are ignorant of reality that most Muslims today do not even bother complying to the terms and conditions of being a Muslim.

To most non-Muslims, just a shout of "ALLAHU AKBAR" is enough for that person to be regarded a Muslim
It is very typical at the present most Muslims do not read the Quran seriously. But what they do is to rely on the knowledge of the experts Islamic scholars. The fact is there are evil prone Islamic scholars who focus on the evil laden elements that influenced and inspired SOME Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence in accordance to what is expected from the Quran from their DUCK or RABBIT perspective.

Why the evil and violence will continue is because no one on Earth can judge whether they are complying with Allah's words or not.


Quote:
Even after reading the Qur'an translations 60 times, you still haven't understood that committing Shirk is not the only unpardonable sin in Islam. Iblis wasn't pardoned for a different sin.
Further, accumulation of sins heavier than accumulation of good deeds will also be unpardonable on the Day of Judgment. Killing an innocent person intentionally is an unpardonable sin. ISIS members are doing exactly that
Note I did not specify the unpardonable sins but merely making a general statement.
As I mentioned above, WHO ARE YOU to judge whether what the members of ISIS are doing are right or wrong in the eyes of Allah.
Most of the acts of the Muslims of ISIS and other evil prone people attract merits that are tenfolds and twofolds of the normal deeds.

Quote:
And you have by now read quite a few of my posts in this forum. Why are you interested in a convicted criminal like Anjem Choudary's behavior, having had pledged allegiance to ISIS but not of 80% (your figure) of peaceful Muslims who have not pledged allegiance to ISIS?
Note the OP is about ISIS, thus I am on topic. Don't complain blindly.

Quote:
There are lots of guys who are supposed to be "well versed" with the Qur'an. You are well versed with the Qur'an. I am well versed with the Qur'an. How come only the "well versed" criminals get convicted?
I have already explained many times, you, I and others are fortunately to be indifferent to the evil laden elements in the Quran. Obvious for me because I am not a Muslim.
But for a Muslim who has active evil tendencies they will comply with the evil laden elements to the closest as possible since their existential desperation for eternal life is at stake.

Quote:
I am not saying the report is false but has anyone checked with University of Baghdad before claiming that he has PhD?

But what is source for this information?
It is a matter of giving confidence level to it based on the overall context. In this case I am giving this information a 80% confidence level awaiting official confirmation. I will retract my statement if officially proven wrong.

Quote:
The point is they are playing politics; not advancing the Sharia and Qur'anic knowledge.
The fact is believers are desperate for salvation to eternal life and avoid Hell and they will do whatever it takes to get the passport to live eternally.
It so happened these are Muslims who has active evil tendencies and are unfortunately exposed to the evil laden elements in the Quran [Islam]. The politics [life on Earth] is secondary in comparison to to life in the hereafter. Thus politics, cartoons, and whatever on Earth are merely excuses and not the primary reasons. The primary reason is the salvation and the political, etc, basis are merely secondary elements to reinforce their purpose of salvation towards eternal life.

Quote:
Where does the Qur'an "exhort Muslims to go abroad to risk their lives fighting for Allah"?
If you have read the Qur'an 60 times, you will have no problem quoting the verse that says to Muslims to, "go abroad to risk your lives fighting for Allah"?
Another mental gymnastic time. Continuum! It's fault of the forelock!
There are a set of various verses involved in this set, but the following are the significant ones;
3:156. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Be not as those [infidels] who disbelieved [hypocrites of Medina] and said of their brethren [braver Muslims] who went abroad in the land or were fighting in the field:
"If they [the braver Muslims] had been (here) with us [Muslims who stayed backed] they would not have died or been killed; that Allah may make it anguish in their [Muslims'] hearts."
Allah giveth life and causeth death; and Allah is Seer of what ye do.

4:100. Whoso migrateth for the cause of Allah will find much refuge and abundance in the Earth, and whoso [Muslim] forsaketh his home, a fugitive unto Allah and His messenger, and death overtaketh him [as a Muslim], his reward is then incumbent [obligatory] on Allah. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
The above together with other relevant fighting/reward/martyrdom verses inspire jihadists to fight for the cause of Allah away from their home.

Note: After reading the Quran so many times, I have a good grasp of the ethos of the Quran and Islam as a whole. One reservation is I do not profess to be like a hafiz who memorize every verse nor do I ever bother it, so I will not be able to produce all the relevant verses at one go. But I know it is somewhere therein the Quran and can be produced with some efforts and searching.

Quote:
You will have prove from the Qur'an if you are truthful!
Making false claims against the Qur'an is doing an irreparable damage to your credibility in this forum.
You have already presented by wrong and false interpretations not me.
What is most critical is I have presented my case from the full perspective of reality while you have only presented it within the Islam-box which is very limited. That is like living inside a tall covered silo in the middle of nowhere. Woodrow would have seen many of such silos.

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Old 08-17-2016, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is very typical at the present most Muslims do not read the Quran seriously. But what they do is to rely on the knowledge of the experts Islamic scholars. The fact is there are evil prone Islamic scholars who focus on the evil laden elements that influenced and inspired SOME Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence in accordance to what is expected from the Quran from their DUCK or RABBIT perspective.

Why the evil and violence will continue is because no one on Earth can judge whether they are complying with Allah's words or not.


Note I did not specify the unpardonable sins but merely making a general statement.
As I mentioned above, WHO ARE YOU to judge whether what the members of ISIS are doing are right or wrong in the eyes of Allah.
Most of the acts of the Muslims of ISIS and other evil prone people attract merits that are tenfolds and twofolds of the normal deeds.

Note the OP is about ISIS, thus I am on topic. Don't complain blindly.

I have already explained many times, you, I and others are fortunately to be indifferent to the evil laden elements in the Quran. Obvious for me because I am not a Muslim.
But for a Muslim who has active evil tendencies they will comply with the evil laden elements to the closest as possible since their existential desperation for eternal life is at stake.

It is a matter of giving confidence level to it based on the overall context. In this case I am giving this information a 80% confidence level awaiting official confirmation. I will retract my statement if officially proven wrong.

The fact is believers are desperate for salvation to eternal life and avoid Hell and they will do whatever it takes to get the passport to live eternally.
It so happened these are Muslims who has active evil tendencies and are unfortunately exposed to the evil laden elements in the Quran [Islam]. The politics [life on Earth] is secondary in comparison to to life in the hereafter. Thus politics, cartoons, and whatever on Earth are merely excuses and not the primary reasons. The primary reason is the salvation and the political, etc, basis are merely secondary elements to reinforce their purpose of salvation towards eternal life.

There are a set of various verses involved in this set, but the following are the significant ones;
3:156. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Be not as those [infidels] who disbelieved [hypocrites of Medina] and said of their brethren [braver Muslims] who went abroad in the land or were fighting in the field:
"If they [the braver Muslims] had been (here) with us [Muslims who stayed backed] they would not have died or been killed; that Allah may make it anguish in their [Muslims'] hearts."
Allah giveth life and causeth death; and Allah is Seer of what ye do.

4:100. Whoso migrateth for the cause of Allah will find much refuge and abundance in the Earth, and whoso [Muslim] forsaketh his home, a fugitive unto Allah and His messenger, and death overtaketh him [as a Muslim], his reward is then incumbent [obligatory] on Allah. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
The above together with other relevant fighting/reward/martyrdom verses inspire jihadists to fight for the cause of Allah away from their home.

Note: After reading the Quran so many times, I have a good grasp of the ethos of the Quran and Islam as a whole. One reservation is I do not profess to be like a hafiz who memorize every verse nor do I ever bother it, so I will not be able to produce all the relevant verses at one go. But I know it is somewhere therein the Quran and can be produced with some efforts and searching.

You have already presented by wrong and false interpretations not me.
What is most critical is I have presented my case from the full perspective of reality while you have only presented it within the Islam-box which is very limited. That is like living inside a tall covered silo in the middle of nowhere. Woodrow would have seen many of such silos.
A very key and profound paragraph is your first one.


Quote:
It is very typical at the present most Muslims do not read the Quran seriously. But what they do is to rely on the knowledge of the experts Islamic scholars. The fact is there are evil prone Islamic scholars who focus on the evil laden elements that influenced and inspired SOME Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence in accordance to what is expected from the Quran from their DUCK or RABBIT perspective.
Which is precisely the reason ISIS is recruiting those who hove no Islamic Knowledge and are not practicing Muslims. A practicing Muslim knows that he is to question all things and is not to believe what any religious instructors teaches unless they them self have verified reasons to believe it is true. The ISIS leaders and other despots rely on the ignorance of their puppets. A Muslim who actually studies the Qur'an as it is to be studied will not find any justification to treat others with malice or hatred.

There is criteria a Qur'an teacher should follow, primarily to never give commentary. A teacher of the Qur'anis to teach the exact words as a Hafiz would recite, nothing else, no commentary or explanation.. They are to teach the proper protocol in how to handle the Qur'an such as a Muslim must perform Wadu before touching the Qur'an, A Muslim is to first pray for guidance before reading a single ayyat and to always read Surat al-Fatiha when first opening the Qur'an.

Also an Imam is not to be a preacher or teacher. The despots such as the leaders of ISIS prey on ignorance and the expressed desire of the ignorant to engage in physical combat. Anyone notice that those who recruit wannabe "martyrs" do not become martyrs them self and go into hiding when the bullets start flying?

Yes, ISIS seeks non-Muslims and others that are ignorant of Islam to be members of ISIS an actual follower of Islam can not follow the likes of ISIS. The followers of ISIS are not performing Islam and have very little Islamic knowledge.

PS: Regarding the last paragraph and the picture. Yep, very familiar scene, A brief tour around my back yard, if you look closely you can see the silo in the neighbor's yard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm0gSYvYxYI
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 08-17-2016 at 07:35 AM..
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Old 08-17-2016, 07:25 AM
 
1,504 posts, read 632,000 times
Reputation: 1362
This is like asking the question - Does the Italian Mafia represent the Vatican? ISIS is not a religious organization. It is also has nothing to do with goodness or God...When are people going to understand...that ISIS is a mafia. It is a large criminal enterprise staffed by young nave angry men who really have no future or anything better to do then belong to a gang.

Funny - America can not control their own domestic gang problems....how do we expect them to root out a gang as big as ISIS...?

When an ISIS adherent screams out "God is great" then murders someone...they are being a hypocrite. If God is all mighty then killing in the name of God is stating that God is NOT almighty and needs help- that God is NOT great - that God is weak....there is no logical connection between God and ISIS....they are just common hoods and their leaders know that.

The young members are just common dupes....angry young men with no future other than joining a gang called ISIS.
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Old 08-17-2016, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.Bachlow View Post
This is like asking the question - Does the Italian Mafia represent the Vatican? ISIS is not a religious organization. It is also has nothing to do with goodness or God...When are people going to understand...that ISIS is a mafia. It is a large criminal enterprise staffed by young nave angry men who really have no future or anything better to do then belong to a gang.

Funny - America can not control their own domestic gang problems....how do we expect them to root out a gang as big as ISIS...?

When an ISIS adherent screams out "God is great" then murders someone...they are being a hypocrite. If God is all mighty then killing in the name of God is stating that God is NOT almighty and needs help- that God is NOT great - that God is weak....there is no logical connection between God and ISIS....they are just common hoods and their leaders know that.

The young members are just common dupes....angry young men with no future other than joining a gang called ISIS.
Thank You.

That is an excellent description of ISIS
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Old 08-17-2016, 01:43 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is very typical at the present most Muslims do not read the Quran seriously. But what they do is to rely on the knowledge of the experts Islamic scholars. The fact is there are evil prone Islamic scholars who focus on the evil laden elements that influenced and inspired SOME Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence in accordance to what is expected from the Quran from their DUCK or RABBIT perspective.
Now that I have told you that most Muslims today do not even bother complying to the terms and conditions of being a Muslim, you still have to stick to your preconceived idea that evil prone Muslims are doing evil because of the evil elements in the Qur'an. You now need to understand that even the political scholars are not evil prone because they do not go and do evil work themselves but get other idiots (who know very little about the Qur'an) to do their political work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Why the evil and violence will continue is because no one on Earth can judge whether they are complying with Allah's words or not.
Then your preconceived idea about them complying with evil elements is baseless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I did not specify the unpardonable sins but merely making a general statement.
You did; "attributing partners to Allah". You had even said that you have not heard that ISIS members have committed a pardonable sin. This clearly meant that you regard only the shirk to be a pardonable sin. This is a result of you not understanding the Qur'an properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I mentioned above, WHO ARE YOU to judge whether what the members of ISIS are doing are right or wrong in the eyes of Allah.
We, Muslims, are damned if we judge their actions and damned if we do not judge their actions. Next time they kill someone in your neighborhood, don't judge them. Don't mention evil prone Muslims, instead keep quiet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Most of the acts of the Muslims of ISIS and other evil prone people attract merits that are tenfolds and twofolds of the normal deeds.
You have just taken over from Anjem Choudary as the ISIS spokesperson. You are already doing a great recruiting job for ISIS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have already explained many times, you, I and others are fortunately to be indifferent to the evil laden elements in the Quran. Obvious for me because I am not a Muslim.
But for a Muslim who has active evil tendencies they will comply with the evil laden elements to the closest as possible since their existential desperation for eternal life is at stake.
Why do you think that I and others are indifferent to the "evil elements in the Qur'an"? Why do you think we do not comply with the most of the Qur'an? Is our "existential desperation for eternal life" not at stake? Why do you keep your blinkers on? Take them off and you would see a bigger picture!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is a matter of giving confidence level to it based on the overall context. In this case I am giving this information a 80% confidence level awaiting official confirmation. I will retract my statement if officially proven wrong.
80% confidence level in ignorance, without any factual proof. Typical!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are a set of various verses involved in this set, but the following are the significant ones;
3:156. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Be not as those [infidels] who disbelieved [hypocrites of Medina] and said of their brethren [braver Muslims] who went abroad in the land or were fighting in the field:
"If they [the braver Muslims] had been (here) with us [Muslims who stayed backed] they would not have died or been killed; that Allah may make it anguish in their [Muslims'] hearts."
Allah giveth life and causeth death; and Allah is Seer of what ye do.

4:100. Whoso migrateth for the cause of Allah will find much refuge and abundance in the Earth, and whoso [Muslim] forsaketh his home, a fugitive unto Allah and His messenger, and death overtaketh him [as a Muslim], his reward is then incumbent [obligatory] on Allah. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
The above together with other relevant fighting/reward/martyrdom verses inspire jihadists to fight for the cause of Allah away from their home.
It just goes to prove that you have no understanding of the Qur'an. These verses have nothing to do with "the Quran who exhort Muslims go abroad to risk their lives fighting for the cause of Allah and if they die as martyr they will be specially rewarded".

3:156 has two elements, (1) travelling in the land and dying and (2) going out in the field in defense when war is made on Muslims. The hypocrites were saying that those who died fighting against Kuffar at Uhad would have been fine if they had stayed in their houses in Madina (Uhad was just outside Madina at the time but now part of Madina).

The verse 4:100 is about leaving home (hijrah) when persecuted (as in Mecca) and dies on the way. Such death during the travel for their Deen is regarded as dying in the way of Allah. It does not mean going abroad to Paris, kiiling innocent people there and dying in the way of Allah after being shot dead by police there.

None of these verses in the Qur'an "exhort Muslims go abroad to risk their lives fighting for the cause of Allah". You interpretation of these verses is due to your ignorance about the Qur'an. The more you quote the verses of the Qur'an and tell me what these verses mean, the more you confirm to me that you do not understand the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note: After reading the Quran so many times, I have a good grasp of the ethos of the Quran and Islam as a whole. One reservation is I do not profess to be like a hafiz who memorize every verse nor do I ever bother it, so I will not be able to produce all the relevant verses at one go. But I know it is somewhere therein the Quran and can be produced with some efforts and searching.
You think you know the ethos of the Qur'an and Islam but you have given me enough to be certain that you are a long way away from understanding the Qur'an.

You do not have to be hafiz to understand the Qur'an (I am not hafiz of the Qur'an) but you must have studied the Qur'an in depth to be able to remember the main verses on each issue. This is how a knowledgeable Muslim will immediately remember all the relevant verses on the issue before his relevant action, without the Qur'an being open in front of him.
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Old 08-17-2016, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A very key and profound paragraph is your first one.

Which is precisely the reason ISIS is recruiting those who have no Islamic Knowledge and are not practicing Muslims. A practicing Muslim knows that he is to question all things and is not to believe what any religious instructors teaches unless they them self have verified reasons to believe it is true. The ISIS leaders and other despots rely on the ignorance of their puppets. A Muslim who actually studies the Qur'an as it is to be studied will not find any justification to treat others with malice or hatred.

There is criteria a Qur'an teacher should follow, primarily to never give commentary. A teacher of the Qur'anis to teach the exact words as a Hafiz would recite, nothing else, no commentary or explanation.. They are to teach the proper protocol in how to handle the Qur'an such as a Muslim must perform Wadu before touching the Qur'an, A Muslim is to first pray for guidance before reading a single ayyat and to always read Surat al-Fatiha when first opening the Qur'an.

Also an Imam is not to be a preacher or teacher. The despots such as the leaders of ISIS prey on ignorance and the expressed desire of the ignorant to engage in physical combat. Anyone notice that those who recruit wannabe "martyrs" do not become martyrs them self and go into hiding when the bullets start flying?

Yes, ISIS seeks non-Muslims and others that are ignorant of Islam to be members of ISIS an actual follower of Islam can not follow the likes of ISIS. The followers of ISIS are not performing Islam and have very little Islamic knowledge.
I do not agree ISIS and other terror groups seek non-Muslims. If any those are the exceptions rather than the norm.

There is no doubt that Muslims of ISIS and other Islamic terror groups are well versed with Islam and practiced Islam zealously.

However it is very likely ISIS will take advantage of Muslims who are not serious practitioners of the religions, especially the very sinful and guilty ones then show them what Allah expect of them within the Quran. These leaders will direct these vulnerable Muslims to the appropriate verses in the Quran that exhort them to be truer Muslims with greater rewards in Paradise.

Why these terror leaders are able to exploit the vulnerable Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence is because the evil laden elements as sanctioned by Allah are already in the Quran. I am confident the leaders will also act in accordance to the expectations of Allah because they are terrified of Hell and want eternal life in Paradise. It is not likely they will act on their own against Allah's words.

Quote:
PS: Regarding the last paragraph and the picture. Yep, very familiar scene, A brief tour around my back yard, if you look closely you can see the silo in the neighbor's yard:
Nice wide open space full of fields. I love the countryside. Envious, wish I could live in places like that.
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Old 08-17-2016, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.Bachlow View Post
This is like asking the question - Does the Italian Mafia represent the Vatican? ISIS is not a religious organization. It is also has nothing to do with goodness or God...When are people going to understand...that ISIS is a mafia. It is a large criminal enterprise staffed by young nave angry men who really have no future or anything better to do then belong to a gang.

Funny - America can not control their own domestic gang problems....how do we expect them to root out a gang as big as ISIS...?

When an ISIS adherent screams out "God is great" then murders someone...they are being a hypocrite. If God is all mighty then killing in the name of God is stating that God is NOT almighty and needs help- that God is NOT great - that God is weak....there is no logical connection between God and ISIS....they are just common hoods and their leaders know that.

The young members are just common dupes....angry young men with no future other than joining a gang called ISIS.
Btw, what is your level of knowledge of the Quran and Ahadith?

If you have not read the Quran more than 10 times, preferable a minimum of 50 times at one go, then, your views on ISIS and any serious matters related to Islam and Muslims are not credible. In addition if you read the English translation, then you must cross reference with at least 30 English translations of the Quran.
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Old 08-17-2016, 11:13 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Now that I have told you that most Muslims today do not even bother complying to the terms and conditions of being a Muslim, you still have to stick to your preconceived idea that evil prone Muslims are doing evil because of the evil elements in the Qur'an. You now need to understand that even the political scholars are not evil prone because they do not go and do evil work themselves but get other idiots (who know very little about the Qur'an) to do their political work.
Did evil prone Hitler ever gassed any one of the millions of Jews killed?
It is the same, the evil prone Islamic scholars may not be doing the killing but they are the most critical evil prone who are influenced and inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran.

Quote:
Then your preconceived idea about them complying with evil elements is baseless.
The point is no one can stop them complying with the evil laden elements in the Quran to commit terrible evils and violence. This meant that as long as the Quran and Islam exists as an ideology in the minds of Muslims, the 20% of evil prone will continue to commit terrible evils and violence. The proofs of this is glaringly evident, i.e. [29,045],



Quote:
You did; "attributing partners to Allah". You had even said that you have not heard that ISIS members have committed a pardonable sin. This clearly meant that you regard only the shirk to be a pardonable sin. This is a result of you not understanding the Qur'an properly.
I stated I have not heard of ISIS committing any unpardonable sins in accordance to the Quran.

Quote:
We, Muslims, are damned if we judge their actions and damned if we do not judge their actions. Next time they kill someone in your neighborhood, don't judge them. Don't mention evil prone Muslims, instead keep quiet.
The point is you are not Allah thus not qualified to judge whether they are right or wrong in the eyes of Allah as per the Quran. Why can't we condemned them as evil prone Muslims which is a fact.
We as humans must condemned such heinous killings and of course the secular laws will dealt with these killers accordingly.
However, what is critical is humanity must strive to find out the ultimate root causes to such killings. Unfortunately what is happening the Muslims are always ignorant and in denial of the ultimate root cause, i.e. the evil laden elements in the Quran that influenced these evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence with the sanction of Allah.

Quote:
You have just taken over from Anjem Choudary as the ISIS spokesperson. You are already doing a great recruiting job for ISIS.
I am merely stating what the Quran is stating. If what is stated int he Quran is recruiting for ISIS, then the authorities and humanity must focus on the evil laden elements in the Quran and deal with them.

Quote:
Why do you think that I and others are indifferent to the "evil elements in the Qur'an"? Why do you think we do not comply with the most of the Qur'an? Is our "existential desperation for eternal life" not at stake? Why do you keep your blinkers on? Take them off and you would see a bigger picture!
I have already told you many times. You are one of those 80% of people who are born with a greater active tendency for the 'good.' That is why you are indifferent towards the 'evil elements in the Quran'. Yes, you existential desperation is at stake but you rely on the 'good' elements rather than the 'evil' elements.
Meanwhile the 20% of evil prone [not you] are also has a very desperate existential stake but they are born with active evil tendencies which focus on the evil elements in the Quran.

Example:
Why you are indifferent to homosexuality is because you are born with natural maleness.
But a male who is born with strong active homosexual tendencies will be inclined towards homosexuality.

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80% confidence level in ignorance, without any factual proof. Typical!
You are ignorant here. I mentioned "confidence" which is subjective and a personal assessment. This 80% is based on my own personal assessment based on my own analysis of knowledge available to myself.

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It just goes to prove that you have no understanding of the Qur'an. These verses have nothing to do with "the Quran who exhort Muslims go abroad to risk their lives fighting for the cause of Allah and if they die as martyr they will be specially rewarded".

3:156 has two elements, (1) travelling in the land and dying and (2) going out in the field in defense when war is made on Muslims. The hypocrites were saying that those who died fighting against Kuffar at Uhad would have been fine if they had stayed in their houses in Madina (Uhad was just outside Madina at the time but now part of Madina).

The verse 4:100 is about leaving home (hijrah) when persecuted (as in Mecca) and dies on the way. Such death during the travel for their Deen is regarded as dying in the way of Allah. It does not mean going abroad to Paris, kiiling innocent people there and dying in the way of Allah after being shot dead by police there.

None of these verses in the Qur'an "exhort Muslims go abroad to risk their lives fighting for the cause of Allah". You interpretation of these verses is due to your ignorance about the Qur'an. The more you quote the verses of the Qur'an and tell me what these verses mean, the more you confirm to me that you do not understand the Qur'an.
Obviously the verses did not command Muslims to go the Paris, etc. to kill Jews and non-Muslims.

What I am saying the verses exhort Muslims to fight non-Muslims away from home as principle and example. Such verses together with the various 'fighting in the way of Allah' verses influenced the evil prone Muslims to go to fight away from their homes in the way of Allah to reap extra and special rewards.

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You think you know the ethos of the Qur'an and Islam but you have given me enough to be certain that you are a long way away from understanding the Qur'an.
I am not expecting any judgment from you at all. As a believer you MUST be bias to your belief at all costs. As such I am very certain you will never consider my counter views [on Islam in relation to the evil elements] favorably.

Quote:
You do not have to be hafiz to understand the Qur'an (I am not hafiz of the Qur'an) but you must have studied the Qur'an in depth to be able to remember the main verses on each issue. This is how a knowledgeable Muslim will immediately remember all the relevant verses on the issue before his relevant action, without the Qur'an being open in front of him.
As I stated you MUST understand the Quran within your own narrow box [silo] without any compromise that will effect your faith that secure your existential desperation. I call that the existential DOOM or existential DOOMed.
Thus your knowledge of the Quran is confined within that DOOM and never extend to reality.

Try this exercise?
For the image below, link all 9 dots using four straight lines or fewer, without lifting the pen and without tracing the same line more than once.




As a Muslim you have no choice but to think within the Islam box, and if you apply the same condition to the above you will never resolve the challenge above

On the other hand I am not under the control of that existential DOOM and thus is free to view the Quran, Islam and Muslims within the full perspectives of reality and human nature. So I am free to think outside the Quran box and will resolve the above problem as follows;


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Old 08-18-2016, 02:16 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Did evil prone Hitler ever gassed any one of the millions of Jews killed?
It is the same, the evil prone Islamic scholars may not be doing the killing but they are the most critical evil prone who are influenced and inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran.
Except that the Islamic scholars are not in power as the Hitler, Bush and Blair were, sending armies to kill and soldiers and pilots had no option but to go and kill.
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