U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-19-2016, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believe there will NOT be many [if any are exceptions] who will join ISIS directly as a non-Muslim.

Note my DUCK-RABBIT explanation.

The point is good and evil elements exist in the Quran and those with ACTIVE evil tendencies will perceive and be inclined to act out the evil laden elements in the believe they are doing their duty as Muslims.

Now the fact is no one on Earth can judge whether al-Baghdadi and his likes are right or wrong.
If they [evil prone Muslims] believe [with justifications] non-Muslims are a threat and has been committing fitna against Islam and Muslims, then kill non-Muslims, who can judge they are wrong?
The bottom line is they are confident Allah will be very pleased with what they are doing as a Muslim [mumin, muttagin,].

There is no way you or any one else can convince the evil prone Muslims are wrong.
Can you?
You can argue with Al-Badhdadi or Anjem Choudary and his likes till the cows come home, you will never ever be able to convince them they are wrong.

The point is, if the evil laden elements were not included in the Quran in the first place by humans, then there would not be such a problem at all.
It is nearly impossible to convince any criminal they are wrong. Unless a person is insane and completely out of touch with reality, they will need to find justification for their acts, no matter how horrendous the action may be. Every Theist will need to find a justification to find their action to be either Justified. condoned or pardonable by the Deity they follow. Atheist criminals I believe will tend to find a moral justification for their crimes. I am quite certain people first get the desire to do the crime and then begin looking for justifications. Those that need no justification have an amoral personality, with a touch of narcissism. essentially every person needs to find justification for their evil actions and will be quite creative in finding such. It makes no difference if the person id a Radical religious zealot or a criminal gang banger. They have the desire to do the act and will find a means to justify their action.

Jim Jones had no trouble in convincing an entire community of devout Christians to commit mass suicide. Neither did the "Heavens Gate" group. No different from the Drug cartels finding justification to murder those who oppose them. The desire to do the crime precedes the finding justification in doing it.

Choudary and al-Baghdadi are no different from any other criminals. Because a criminal is adept at using his religion to justify his crimes, does not mean his religion is the reason he does the crimes.

One can look at the Christian Ministers in parts of Africa using "Witch Hunts" Justify atrocities by their interpretation of Christianity. The same type misuses are done by despots in every religion. The blame is the evil doers, not their scriptures. You will find the likes of Jim Jones, al-Baghdadi, Joseph Kony, Pol pot, Kim Jung Un, Stalin, Hitler, Anjem Choudary, David Koresh among all groups, Secular and/or Religious.

All Terrorists and those who encourage terrorism are criminals and should be treated as such, not dignified with any religious labels.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-19-2016, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Well, if you use the same logic, you will understand that they should be able to attract people like me and Woodrow LI too because of Islam (Qur'an) itself. They can't attracts us because of Islam (Qur'an) itself; we do understand Islam (Qur'an) itself.
This the umpteenth times I have to educate on human nature in regard to this point;

1. All humans has the potential to be evil.
2. 80% of all human has active good tendencies, 20% has active evil tendencies.
3. The 20% of Muslims with active evil tendencies will be influenced and inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran.

You are stating the obvious about yourself and Woodrow because both of you are within the 80% of people with active good tendencies. Thus both of you will be indifferent to the evil laden elements in the Quran.

Note the above knowledge and do not insult your own intelligence again.

Quote:
It does not say so in the Qur'an. Stop making false claims about the Qur'an and Allah!
I have given you one example re Bin Laden's Letter to America where he quoted various verses from the Quran.
Just in case, WHO ARE YOU [a small time slave] to judge on behalf of Allah that Bin Laden is wrong. Note Bin Laden has hundreds of admirers from Muslims all around the world.

Quote:
Also, hadith books are not from Allah.
That point is applicable to those [1.4 billion Muslims, not you] who accept the Ahadith as having divine authority.

Quote:
That is a blatant lie against the Qur'an. The Qur'an hasn't sanctioned to commit terrible evils and violence. Not even one verse commands me to commit evil acts.
You are indifferent to the evil elements in the Quran but not the 20% of evil prone, e.g. Bin Laden, Al-Baghdadi, and the likes.

Quote:
This lie is no better than the Crusade against Iraq sanctioned by God of GWB. WMDs in Iraq has been proven to be a lie. This has resulted in creation of DAESH otherwise known as ISIS..
You are the one who is lying based on your ignorance. GWB motives has nothing to do with God but ISIS motives has a lot to do with God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-19-2016, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It's a crap!

The Qur'an sanctions committing evil is neither DUCK nor RABBIT but CRAP.
I can understand as a believer you have no other choice but you MUST deny the above reality.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-19-2016, 10:42 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The point that you can't understand is that if Bush and Blair hadn't declared a crusade against Saddam and his non-existing WMDs and attacked Iraq, there would have been no ISIS today.
Yes, I do agree IF Bush [and his committee] had not declared war on Saddam, there would be no ISIS. This is recognized by many people with simple logic. Btw, ISIS started in Syria and not in Iraq.

But what most people do not understand is there are malignant evil impulses lurking within the minds of those SOME evil prone Muslims who are infected with the various evil laden elements from the Quran [in part]. This malignant impulse is ever ready to burst into serious 'infections' whenever there are weaknesses to be exploited. This is a principle that will happen any where around the world wherever there are Muslims, so it is not merely ISIS.

That was what had happened in Iraq, i.e. Bush, etc. all weakened the political structure in Iraq then Syria, and the malignant impulses of the evil prone Muslims exploited that weakness.
This did not happen with merely ISIS, but anywhere like Boko Haram, and other terrorists groups where the political structure is weak as in Ethopia, Southern Philippines, Southern Thailand, Bangladesh, Pakistan, etc.

It is the same with Europe which stupidly placated, caved-in & relented to certain groups of Muslims and their rewards are an increasing trend of Islamic-inspired evils and violence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-19-2016, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It is nearly impossible to convince any criminal they are wrong. Unless a person is insane and completely out of touch with reality, they will need to find justification for their acts, no matter how horrendous the action may be. Every Theist will need to find a justification to find their action to be either Justified. condoned or pardonable by the Deity they follow. Atheist criminals I believe will tend to find a moral justification for their crimes. I am quite certain people first get the desire to do the crime and then begin looking for justifications. Those that need no justification have an amoral personality, with a touch of narcissism. essentially every person needs to find justification for their evil actions and will be quite creative in finding such. It makes no difference if the person id a Radical religious zealot or a criminal gang banger. They have the desire to do the act and will find a means to justify their action.

Jim Jones had no trouble in convincing an entire community of devout Christians to commit mass suicide. Neither did the "Heavens Gate" group. No different from the Drug cartels finding justification to murder those who oppose them. The desire to do the crime precedes the finding justification in doing it.

Choudary and al-Baghdadi are no different from any other criminals. Because a criminal is adept at using his religion to justify his crimes, does not mean his religion is the reason he does the crimes.

One can look at the Christian Ministers in parts of Africa using "Witch Hunts" Justify atrocities by their interpretation of Christianity. The same type misuses are done by despots in every religion. The blame is the evil doers, not their scriptures. You will find the likes of Jim Jones, al-Baghdadi, Joseph Kony, Pol pot, Kim Jung Un, Stalin, Hitler, Anjem Choudary, David Koresh among all groups, Secular and/or Religious.

All Terrorists and those who encourage terrorism are criminals and should be treated as such, not dignified with any religious labels.
In my research of all evils in the world, it is noted there are the two distinct types of evils committed by evil prone humans. i.e.

1. Those who commit evils acts based on non-religious motivations
2. Those who commit evils acts as inspired by the evil elements in their religious texts.

Humanity must address both types of evil without exception, but in this forum [protocol wise] we are only dealing with religious ones and those related to Islam.

Jim Jones, Joseph Kony, Pol pot, Kim Jung Un, Stalin, Hitler, David Koresh among all groups, Secular and/or Religious are compelled by their inherent evil prone nature but not directly from evil elements within their religious texts.

According to my research, those 'SOME' evil prone who commit evils acts as inspired by the evil elements in their religious texts are only from Islam, e.g. al-Baghdadi, Anjem Choudary, and their likes. Thus their religion [in part] are the root cause to their evil acts in addition to their own inherent evil prone nature.

In this case, humanity must address the evil laden verses within the Quran [& Ahadith].

The reason why the majority of humans do not have the awareness to review the evil elements in the holy texts [they openly DENY them] is because of some inherent psychological and existential reasons that prevent them from doing so.

IF the majority of humans can transcend that inherent psychological existential barrier, then humanity will be able to deal with the evil laden elements in the holy texts more openly, rationally, logically and wisely.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-19-2016 at 11:33 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-20-2016, 07:22 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,035 times
Reputation: 54
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim. As salaamu alaykum. You repeatedly make reference to evil prone individuals as if they need to commit an act of evil. These same individuals have free will. They have a conscience. They can use their brain to think compassionately. They do not necessarily need to commit evil. Those who feel the need to do evil, should seek psychological help. And it need not be due to a religious reason. How then, can it be due to existence? Are there that many suicidal people in existence? You have not considered demon possession. It is as monumental a problem today, as it was in ancient times. I get the impression that people cannot live without it!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In my research of all evils in the world, it is noted there are the two distinct types of evils committed by evil prone humans. i.e.

1. Those who commit evils acts based on non-religious motivations
2. Those who commit evils acts as inspired by the evil elements in their religious texts.

Humanity must address both types of evil without exception, but in this forum [protocol wise] we are only dealing with religious ones and those related to Islam.

Jim Jones, Joseph Kony, Pol pot, Kim Jung Un, Stalin, Hitler, David Koresh among all groups, Secular and/or Religious are compelled by their inherent evil prone nature but not directly from evil elements within their religious texts.

According to my research, those 'SOME' evil prone who commit evils acts as inspired by the evil elements in their religious texts are only from Islam, e.g. al-Baghdadi, Anjem Choudary, and their likes. Thus their religion [in part] are the root cause to their evil acts in addition to their own inherent evil prone nature.

In this case, humanity must address the evil laden verses within the Quran [& Ahadith].

The reason why the majority of humans do not have the awareness to review the evil elements in the holy texts [they openly DENY them] is because of some inherent psychological and existential reasons that prevent them from doing so.

IF the majority of humans can transcend that inherent psychological existential barrier, then humanity will be able to deal with the evil laden elements in the holy texts more openly, rationally, logically and wisely.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-20-2016, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In my research of all evils in the world, it is noted there are the two distinct types of evils committed by evil prone humans. i.e.

1. Those who commit evils acts based on non-religious motivations
2. Those who commit evils acts as inspired by the evil elements in their religious texts.

Humanity must address both types of evil without exception, but in this forum [protocol wise] we are only dealing with religious ones and those related to Islam.

Jim Jones, Joseph Kony, Pol pot, Kim Jung Un, Stalin, Hitler, David Koresh among all groups, Secular and/or Religious are compelled by their inherent evil prone nature but not directly from evil elements within their religious texts.

According to my research, those 'SOME' evil prone who commit evils acts as inspired by the evil elements in their religious texts are only from Islam, e.g. al-Baghdadi, Anjem Choudary, and their likes. Thus their religion [in part] are the root cause to their evil acts in addition to their own inherent evil prone nature.

In this case, humanity must address the evil laden verses within the Quran [& Ahadith].

The reason why the majority of humans do not have the awareness to review the evil elements in the holy texts [they openly DENY them] is because of some inherent psychological and existential reasons that prevent them from doing so.

IF the majority of humans can transcend that inherent psychological existential barrier, then humanity will be able to deal with the evil laden elements in the holy texts more openly, rationally, logically and wisely.
I disagree with this paragraph:

Quote:
According to my research, those 'SOME' evil prone who commit evils acts as inspired by the evil elements in their religious texts are only from Islam, e.g. al-Baghdadi, Anjem Choudary, and their likes. Thus their religion [in part] are the root cause to their evil acts in addition to their own inherent evil prone nature.

Almost daily you will find atrocities done by non-Muslims and using their religious scriptures to Justify them.

Look at the antics of the "Lord's Liberation Army" in Africa

In Kony's shadow: Shocking photographs reveal brutality of Lord's Resistance Army | News | Culture | The Independent

Or the Christians conducting witch hunts in Africa

Christian militias in Central African Republic 'burnt witches at stake', says UN report - Telegraph

there is a Christian version of "Boko-Haram" it is called "Anti-Balaka"

In tragic twist, Christian terror groups attack African Muslims | Communities Digital News


The point being the Western world has difficulty in seeing Terrorism by Christians as being "Christian Terrorism" and see all Terrorism by Muslims as being "Muslim Terrorism"

The concept of religious terrorism has been defined through media usage as being "any violence by Muslims"

All Religious texts contain scripture some people will find to be "Evil". More than one non-Religious source finds Christian scripture to be more violent then Islamic Scripture

'Violence more common' in Bible than Quran, text analysis reveals | Books | Culture | The Independent

Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran? : NPR

Text Analytics Program Proves Quran Less Violent Than The Bible

Historian Demolishes Idea The Quran Is More Violent Than Bible: Christians Have ?Holy Amnesia? | Addicting Info | The Knowledge You Crave

Non-Muslims that do see the violence in the Bible will use the disclaimer that Christianity has safeguards that prevent evil, yet fail to see Islam has the very same safeguards.

What is over looked those who do evil in the name of any religion are doing evil because of their own inner choices, not because of what they read. They desire to do evil and will twist what ever they need twist to justify their evil.

Those that earn a living by studying Terrorism do not find Islam or any religion to be the main cause of terrorism

Terrorism: What Are the Major Causes?

Causes of Terrorism | Hand of Reason

https://thinkprogress.org/whats-the-...4c5#.boq9ho1x0

Causes of terrorism

Does religion cause terrorism?
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-20-2016, 12:53 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,500,940 times
Reputation: 3870
The point is that there are hundreds, make that thousands, who claim to be Muslims, yet advocate violence - in the name of their professed religion. Incidentally next time you take a flight, and you have to go through strict security - who largely (or at any rate, who, in what name?), predominantly contributed to that?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-20-2016, 03:19 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This the umpteenth times I have to educate on human nature in regard to this point;

1. All humans has the potential to be evil.
2. 80% of all human has active good tendencies, 20% has active evil tendencies.
3. The 20% of Muslims with active evil tendencies will be influenced and inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran.

You are stating the obvious about yourself and Woodrow because both of you are within the 80% of people with active good tendencies. Thus both of you will be indifferent to the evil laden elements in the Quran.

Note the above knowledge and do not insult your own intelligence again.
You are unable to understand that we cannot be indifferent to part of the Qur'an. We must follow ALL of the Qur'an or else we are rejecting some of the guidance of Allah (SWT) in the Qur'an which would be a sin counting (weighing) against us.

In other words, we are taking the full guidance of Allah (SWT) in the Qur'an and doing evil act is not a guidance in the Qur'an. Any elements in the Qur'an assumed to be evil elements by ignorant people are, in reality, justice elements in the Qur'an.

[9.67] The hypocritical men (who call themselves Muslims) and the hypocritical women are all alike; they enjoin evil and forbid good and withhold their hands; they have forsaken Allah, so He has forsaken them; surely the hypocrites are the transgressors.

[9.71] And
(as for) the believing men and the believing women, they are guardians of each other; they enjoin good and forbid evil and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His messenger; (as for) these, Allah will show mercy to them; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

You regard them "evil prone" and Allah calls them "hypocrites".
You regard us "with active good tendencies" and Allah regards us "believers".

Allah is of course spot on!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-20-2016, 03:24 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
The point is that there are hundreds, make that thousands, who claim to be Muslims, yet advocate violence - in the name of their professed religion.
All hypocrites used to claim that they are Muslims (9:67).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top