U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-15-2016, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407

Advertisements

Quite interesting to see who most recruits to ISIS are. The typical recruit is a Western Non-Muslim who Joins ISIS for excitement.

Idiots joining lunacy for "Thrills"


Quote:
(Newser) – The Islamic State isn't exactly choosy about who gets to enter its ranks, based on an examination by the AP of thousands of leaked ISIS documents that show recruits often had very little, if any, religious knowledge to back up their desire to join—with a couple of British newbies even buying The Koran for Dummies and Islam for Dummies on Amazon right before heading overseas to fight for their "cause." The AP says its probe—which included interviews, court testimony, and scrutiny of more than 4,000 entry forms of foreigners heading to Syria in 2013 and 2014 to join up with ISIS—showed those terror candidates were "overwhelmingly ignorant" of Islam and had to be schooled via indoctrination videos and visiting imams specifically commissioned to bring them up to speed.
About 70% of the recruits had "basic" knowledge of Sharia law (i.e., not much at all), while 24% claimed "intermediate" knowledge and 5% "advanced" status. And per a study by West Point's Combating Terrorism Center, those who wanted to carry out suicide bombings tended not to be religious scholars—the naifs volunteered more often. Some recruits tell the AP they were thrown by their ISIS experience once they got there: One now-regretful European recruit tells the AP, "I realized that I was in the wrong place when they began to ask me questions on these forms like 'When you die, who should we call?'" What all of this means, per a former CIA case officer and Mideast extremist expert: that although some recruits do indeed join up with ISIS for religious reasons, most, including those from the West, are drawn instead by "a sense of belonging, a sense of notoriety, a sense of excitement. … Religion is an afterthought." (A glimpse into an ISIS job application.)
Leaked Documents Expose Ignorance of ISIS Recruits: AP
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-15-2016, 01:04 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
I have been saying that for ages now. They are mostly idiots and ignorant about Islam. The ignorant pawns are being used by some rich power hungry Arabs who want to be kings of another Arab State.

The problem is that those who call it "Islamic State" are also idiots and ignorant about what is "Islamic" and what is not.

There was a time when Bush and Blair were saying "Islamic terrorists" in their speeches on daily basis. Then people learnt that there is nothing "Islamic" about these terrorists. So the politicians stopped saying "Islamic terrorists".

Now the famous utterance is "Islamic State" or "so-called Islamic State". Terrorism will not be eliminated until ignorance about Islam is eliminated.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-15-2016, 11:11 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Quite interesting to see who most recruits to ISIS are. The typical recruit is a Western Non-Muslim who Joins ISIS for excitement.

Idiots joining lunacy for "Thrills"
Often such reports are not complete and do not reflect much of reality of the situation and conditions. Sources of knowledge from those captured and renegades are often bias and they will tell what the interrogators want to hear.

To get a more complete picture we need a proper and detailed study but that is not possible because ISIS is not accessible to unbiased researchers.

Nevertheless the best we can is to infer from circumstantial evidences;

1. No doubt there will be thrill seekers but the numbers of such perverts are minimal, therefore they can be discounted for consideration in such cases.

2. No Muslims will dare to go against Allah's words and commands, therefore however they act, their actions must be an attempt to comply with Allah's commands as in the Quran [or Ahadith].

3. We know Abu Bakar Baghdadi has a Phd in Islamic Knowledge, so we cannot insist ISIS is managed by some ignorant fools who do not understand what is expected in the Quran from Allah. I don't have exact information but I believe the top echelons of ISIS must comprised of people who have thorough knowledge of the Quran and Islam or else they will not be respected by the followers.

4. The above report itself indicated there are a % of followers who have knowledge of Sharia, etc. The point is only natural that we do not expect 100% of followers of any ideological group to be well versed with the ideology. Surely not all German Nazi would have read the Main Kempf.

5. The main root cause here is the establishment of a new ideology and the majority of humans are always desperate to cling to some sort of ideology. In the case of religious ideology, the majority of humans are desperate for salvation to eternal life and will cling to any ideology to feel the ease and relieve from the terrible inherent and unavoidable mental angst.

6. The worst of an ideology [religious or secular] is when the ideology contain evil laden element that will influence and inspire SOME followers who are naturally born with evil tendencies to be influenced and inspired to commit terrible evils and violence. This is what happened with ISIS where the evil prone gathered together with the sincere zeal to do their duty to please Allah as ordained in the Quran.

Quote:
Is ISIS (ISIL, Islamic State, etc) representative of Islam?
It is not a question of whether ISIS represent Islam or not.
Rather we must find out whether ISIS members individually and collective perform Islam in accordance to the terms and conditions in the Quran and no where else.

This meant do they perform the following;
1. 5 pillars of Islam
2. 6 pillars of Imam
3. x pillars of Ihsan
4. Comply with other terms and conditions in the Quran

Without going into details, based on what I have read, I believe many members has perform a majority of the above pillars and comply with more terms and conditions than the ordinary non-ISIS Muslims.

What is critical here is whether the members of ISIS commit any unpardonable sin like attributing partners to Allah. I have not read they have committed unpardonable sins.
Whatever sins they have committed are forgivable and pardonable and they will go to Paradise.

If we are to use the 6,236 verses as a checklist of compliance as a truer Muslim, I believe many of the Muslims of ISIS are truer Muslims in comparison to the majority of moderates.

If the Muslims of ISIS are truer Muslims and they commit so much terrible evils and violence, then we must look at the Quran [in part] seriously.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-15-2016 at 11:29 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-16-2016, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Often such reports are not complete and do not reflect much of reality of the situation and conditions. Sources of knowledge from those captured and renegades are often bias and they will tell what the interrogators want to hear.

To get a more complete picture we need a proper and detailed study but that is not possible because ISIS is not accessible to unbiased researchers.

Nevertheless the best we can is to infer from circumstantial evidences;

1. No doubt there will be thrill seekers but the numbers of such perverts are minimal, therefore they can be discounted for consideration in such cases.

2. No Muslims will dare to go against Allah's words and commands, therefore however they act, their actions must be an attempt to comply with Allah's commands as in the Quran [or Ahadith].

3. We know Abu Bakar Baghdadi has a Phd in Islamic Knowledge, so we cannot insist ISIS is managed by some ignorant fools who do not understand what is expected in the Quran from Allah. I don't have exact information but I believe the top echelons of ISIS must comprised of people who have thorough knowledge of the Quran and Islam or else they will not be respected by the followers.

4. The above report itself indicated there are a % of followers who have knowledge of Sharia, etc. The point is only natural that we do not expect 100% of followers of any ideological group to be well versed with the ideology. Surely not all German Nazi would have read the Main Kempf.

5. The main root cause here is the establishment of a new ideology and the majority of humans are always desperate to cling to some sort of ideology. In the case of religious ideology, the majority of humans are desperate for salvation to eternal life and will cling to any ideology to feel the ease and relieve from the terrible inherent and unavoidable mental angst.

6. The worst of an ideology [religious or secular] is when the ideology contain evil laden element that will influence and inspire SOME followers who are naturally born with evil tendencies to be influenced and inspired to commit terrible evils and violence. This is what happened with ISIS where the evil prone gathered together with the sincere zeal to do their duty to please Allah as ordained in the Quran.


It is not a question of whether ISIS represent Islam or not.
Rather we must find out whether ISIS members individually and collective perform Islam in accordance to the terms and conditions in the Quran and no where else.

This meant do they perform the following;
1. 5 pillars of Islam
2. 6 pillars of Imam
3. x pillars of Ihsan
4. Comply with other terms and conditions in the Quran

Without going into details, based on what I have read, I believe many members has perform a majority of the above pillars and comply with more terms and conditions than the ordinary non-ISIS Muslims.

What is critical here is whether the members of ISIS commit any unpardonable sin like attributing partners to Allah. I have not read they do.
In regards to #2 it is impossible to tell if anyone is performing Isla as we do not know what is in anyone's thoughts or intentions. We only know what they say or what we see them physically do.

What is known is ISIS is targeting recruits that are not Muslim and have no knowledge of the Qur'an and claim to revert to Islam as a condition of membership. The number on known Muslims that join ISIS are in the thousands. From the article:

Quote:
scrutiny of more than 4,000 entry forms of foreigners heading to Syria in 2013 and 2014 to join up with ISIS—showed those terror candidates were "overwhelmingly ignorant" of Islam and had to be schooled via indoctrination videos and visiting imams specifically commissioned to bring them up to speed.
In other words ISIS is having trouble recruiting Muslims and has resorted to recruiting non-Muslims who have no knowledge of Islam and Muslims that have no knowledge of Islam

A few more articles about who ISIS recruits


.ISIS Recruiting Westerners: How The 'Islamic State' Goes After Non-Muslims And Recent Converts In The West

Recruiting for ISIS - CBS News

https://pjmedia.com/homeland-securit...estic-attacks/

Islamic State Gets Know-Nothing Recruits and Rejoices | Military.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-hate-muslims/

Islamic State (ISIS) propaganda attracts non-Muslims too; Hindu Delhi girl is the latest terror aspirant - India.com
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-16-2016, 01:11 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In regards to #2 it is impossible to tell if anyone is performing Isla as we do not know what is in anyone's thoughts or intentions. We only know what they say or what we see them physically do.
This is a general human problem because no humans can read the thoughts of another human. For believers it is only God who know what is in their 'breasts.'

So we humans has to rely on the next best thing, i.e. observation, analysis, testing, etc. to obtain information based the best of our ability.

As for ISIS we know them from what they are doing and talks about.

Quote:
What is known is ISIS is targeting recruits that are not Muslim and have no knowledge of the Qur'an and claim to revert to Islam as a condition of membership. The number on known Muslims that join ISIS are in the thousands. From the article:
<snip>

In other words ISIS is having trouble recruiting Muslims and has resorted to recruiting non-Muslims who have no knowledge of Islam and Muslims that have no knowledge of Islam.
I don't think there are many non-Muslims who will want to join ISIS except for those who are forced under circumstances and for some perverted reasons. I expect these to be very less in numbers.

I believe those who are most likely to join ISIS are the following;

1. The evil prone and the very zealous Muslim who is desperate to go to Paradise.
2. Muslims who are not serious but are evil prone and now seek repentance the quick way.

It is not difficult to get those reported numbers from a pool of 20% Muslims i.e. 300 millions from around the world. Note THREE HUNDRED MILLION, 300,000,000 Muslims. So for ISIS to get 20,000 of type 2 & 2 as above from 300,000,000 is no big task.
Note again, to get 20,000 to join ISIS from 300,000,000 is easy given the desperation of them wanting to go to Paradise.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-16-2016, 01:22 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Often such reports are not complete and do not reflect much of reality of the situation and conditions. Sources of knowledge from those captured and renegades are often bias and they will tell what the interrogators want to hear.

To get a more complete picture we need a proper and detailed study but that is not possible because ISIS is not accessible to unbiased researchers.
There are no "unbiased" researchers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Nevertheless the best we can is to infer from circumstantial evidences;

1. No doubt there will be thrill seekers but the numbers of such perverts are minimal, therefore they can be discounted for consideration in such cases.
You have just rejected the first circumstantial evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
2. No Muslims will dare to go against Allah's words and commands, therefore however they act, their actions must be an attempt to comply with Allah's commands as in the Quran [or Ahadith].
This is where you are ignorant about "Muslims". There isn't even one Muslim (including myself) today who hasn't ever gone against Allah's words and commands. ISIS members do everyday. Go there and you will soon find the truth of their Muslimness!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
3. We know Abu Bakar Baghdadi has a Phd in Islamic Knowledge, so we cannot insist ISIS is managed by some ignorant fools who do not understand what is expected in the Quran from Allah. I don't have exact information but I believe the top echelons of ISIS must comprised of people who have thorough knowledge of the Quran and Islam or else they will not be respected by the followers.
Pure conjecture.

There is no proof that Al-Baghdadi or anyone else has Phd in "Islamic knowledge".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
4. The above report itself indicated there are a % of followers who have knowledge of Sharia, etc. The point is only natural that we do not expect 100% of followers of any ideological group to be well versed with the ideology. Surely not all German Nazi would have read the Main Kempf.
Reading and understanding are not the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
5. The main root cause here is the establishment of a new ideology and the majority of humans are always desperate to cling to some sort of ideology. In the case of religious ideology, the majority of humans are desperate for salvation to eternal life and will cling to any ideology to feel the ease and relieve from the terrible inherent and unavoidable mental angst.
Or fight the foreigners attacking them in their country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
6. The worst of an ideology [religious or secular] is when the ideology contain evil laden element that will influence and inspire SOME followers who are naturally born with evil tendencies to be influenced and inspired to commit terrible evils and violence. This is what happened with ISIS where the evil prone gathered together with the sincere zeal to do their duty to please Allah as ordained in the Quran.
They gathered together after the Iraq invasion to get rid of infidels crusaders and their allies from their country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is not a question of whether ISIS represent Islam or not.
Rather we must find out whether ISIS members individually and collective perform Islam in accordance to the terms and conditions in the Quran and no where else.
That's easy; they do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This meant do they perform the following;
1. 5 pillars of Islam
2. 6 pillars of Imam
3. x pillars of Ihsan
4. Comply with other terms and conditions in the Quran
Killing innocent people is complying with none of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Without going into details, based on what I have read, I believe many members has perform a majority of the above pillars and comply with more terms and conditions than the ordinary non-ISIS Muslims.
We know your reading is suspect. You read too fast and without understanding it properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What is critical here is whether the members of ISIS commit any unpardonable sin like attributing partners to Allah. I have not read they have committed unpardonable sins.
Whatever sins they have committed are forgivable and pardonable and they will go to Paradise.
Killing a Muslim is unpardonable sin in Islam (I am sure you do not know this because you read the Qur'an too fast and without understanding it). ISIS are killing Muslims too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If we are to use the 6,236 verses as a checklist of compliance as a truer Muslim, I believe many of the Muslims of ISIS are truer Muslims in comparison to the majority of moderates.
Utter nonsense!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If the Muslims of ISIS are truer Muslims and they commit so much terrible evils and violence, then we must look at the Quran [in part] seriously.
If 80% (your figure) are peaceful then you must look at the Qur'an as a whole seriously as to why the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful Muslims.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-16-2016, 01:59 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is not difficult to get those reported numbers from a pool of 20% Muslims i.e. 300 millions from around the world. Note THREE HUNDRED MILLION, 300,000,000 Muslims. So for ISIS to get 20,000 of type 2 & 2 as above from 300,000,000 is no big task.
Note again, to get 20,000 to join ISIS from 300,000,000 is easy given the desperation of them wanting to go to Paradise.
You have fallen so deep into these figures (20% and 80%) that you are never going to see the light that 300,000,000 Muslims are not desperate to join ISIS. And even 20,000 is less than 1% (0.666%) of your evil prone and 0.133% of all Muslims.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-16-2016, 02:17 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This is where you are ignorant about "Muslims". There isn't even one Muslim (including myself) today who hasn't ever gone against Allah's words and commands. ISIS members do everyday. Go there and you will soon find the truth of their Muslimness!
Note the default is ALL normal Muslims will attempt to comply to the terms and conditions of being a Muslim to the best of their ability.
Obviously they as human beings will sin but the majority will not commit serious sin that will not be forgiven by Allah.

It is not possible for us to find out what is really going on within ISIS in Iraq. However listening to the preachers who are strongly oriented to the thinking of ISIS we can get an idea of their expectations and behavior. I have listened to quite a lot of the talks of Anjem Choudary and his likes who has no hesitations in letting you know what he expect to do as a Muslim.

Note this guy, he is very well verse with the Quran, appearing in CNN and various talk shows before he went to Syria;
You think otherwise?


Islamic State jihadi from UK went to Syria under the noses of security services while on bail for jihad terror offenses
“New Jihadi John revealed: family of British Muslim convert, Siddhartha Dhar, say he is Isil killer,” by Martin Evans, Telegraph, January 4, 2016:

Quote:
Pure conjecture.
Quote:
There is no proof that Al-Baghdadi or anyone else has Phd in "Islamic knowledge".
Baghdadi pursued his religious interests at university. He obtained a bachelor's degree in Islamic studies from the University of Baghdad in 1996, and a Master's and PhD in Koranic studies from Iraq's Saddam University for Islamic Studies in 1999 and 2007 respectively.
Who is Islamic State leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi? - BBC News
Note since this can be easily be verified with the University of Baghdad so I don't think the BBC will dare to lie about it. This point is reported all over the internet.
Do not have any proofs or reports of doubts that it is not the case, i.e. Al-Baghdadi did not have a PhD from the University of Baghdad.

Quote:
Reading and understanding are not the same thing.
I know. That is not the point. The point is they are Muslims and they have various levels of understanding of the Sharia and Quran.

Quote:
Or fight the foreigners attacking them in their country.
Those Syrians [Sunni] jihadist fighting Asad [Shia] are not fighting foreigners invading their country.
Actually they are inspired by the Quran who exhort Muslims go abroad to risk their lives fighting for the cause of Allah and if they die as martyr they will be specially rewarded.

Quote:
They gathered together after the Iraq invasion to get rid of infidels crusaders and their allies from their country.
That is the problem with the Quran which exhorted Muslims to do such a thing instead of fighting through the proper conventional channels of war instead of a theological based war which has no overriding moral maxim.

Quote:
That's easy; they do not.
This is merely your narrow minded view without proper thinking.

Quote:
Killing innocent people is complying with none of them.

Killing a Muslim is unpardonable sin in Islam (I am sure you do not know this because you read the Qur'an too fast and without understanding it). ISIS are killing Muslims too.
Note my argument re no absolute moral maxim on killing within the Quran. Therefore killing of whoever in the cause of Allah is not a sin. In fact they will get special rewards in Paradise.

Btw, WHO ARE YOU to judge the acts of ISIS? You are Allah's assistant judge?

Quote:
Utter nonsense!
One of my sub-project is to do an exercise on this to prove my point.

Quote:
If 80% (your figure) are peaceful then you must look at the Qur'an as a whole seriously as to why the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful Muslims.
In general 80% of humans are peaceful people regardless of which religion they belong to or in most general situations of encountering evil.

If we exposed ALL [100%] human beings to very violent and evil elements in say movies, news, etc. it is very likely 80% of human will not be effected by the evil laden elements. You can see this yourself.

Currently the whole world's population is exposed to news of terrible evils and violence from all sources and the worst are by SOME evil prone Muslims. However not every one are influenced and inspired by to follow and commit evils and violence.

Therefore my theory is true and the Quran has nothing significant in contributing the good of the 80% of Muslims.

But the evil laden elements do have an influence on the 20% evil prone humans. This is why evil and violent elements are normally banned, censured or modulated by various limits and control.
The problem is the evil laden elements in the Quran are not censured nor modulated and thus it influenced and inspired SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence around the world. The evidence is very glaringly as one set of statistical example shows;



Btw, I always provide some kind of evidence as proofs and justifications while you are merely denying blindly all the time without any solid justifications at all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-16-2016, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the default is ALL normal Muslims will attempt to comply to the terms and conditions of being a Muslim to the best of their ability.
Obviously they as human beings will sin but the majority will not commit serious sin that will not be forgiven by Allah.

It is not possible for us to find out what is really going on within ISIS in Iraq. However listening to the preachers who are strongly oriented to the thinking of ISIS we can get an idea of their expectations and behavior. I have listened to quite a lot of the talks of Anjem Choudary and his likes who has no hesitations in letting you know what he expect to do as a Muslim.

Note this guy, he is very well verse with the Quran, appearing in CNN and various talk shows before he went to Syria;
You think otherwise?


Islamic State jihadi from UK went to Syria under the noses of security services while on bail for jihad terror offenses
“New Jihadi John revealed: family of British Muslim convert, Siddhartha Dhar, say he is Isil killer,” by Martin Evans, Telegraph, January 4, 2016:


Note since this can be easily be verified with the University of Baghdad so I don't think the BBC will dare to lie about it. This point is reported all over the internet.
Do not have any proofs or reports of doubts that it is not the case, i.e. Al-Baghdadi did not have a PhD from the University of Baghdad.

I know. That is not the point. The point is they are Muslims and they have various levels of understanding of the Sharia and Quran.

Those Syrians [Sunni] jihadist fighting Asad [Shia] are not fighting foreigners invading their country.
Actually they are inspired by the Quran who exhort Muslims go abroad to risk their lives fighting for the cause of Allah and if they die as martyr they will be specially rewarded.

That is the problem with the Quran which exhorted Muslims to do such a thing instead of fighting through the proper conventional channels of war instead of a theological based war which has no overriding moral maxim.

This is merely your narrow minded view without proper thinking.

Note my argument re no absolute moral maxim on killing within the Quran. Therefore killing of whoever in the cause of Allah is not a sin. In fact they will get special rewards in Paradise.

Btw, WHO ARE YOU to judge the acts of ISIS? You are Allah's assistant judge?

One of my sub-project is to do an exercise on this to prove my point.

In general 80% of humans are peaceful people regardless of which religion they belong to or in most general situations of encountering evil.

If we exposed ALL [100%] human beings to very violent and evil elements in say movies, news, etc. it is very likely 80% of human will not be effected by the evil laden elements. You can see this yourself.

Currently the whole world's population is exposed to news of terrible evils and violence from all sources and the worst are by SOME evil prone Muslims. However not every one are influenced and inspired by to follow and commit evils and violence.

Therefore my theory is true and the Quran has nothing significant in contributing the good of the 80% of Muslims.

But the evil laden elements do have an influence on the 20% evil prone humans. This is why evil and violent elements are normally banned, censured or modulated by various limits and control.
The problem is the evil laden elements in the Quran are not censured nor modulated and thus it influenced and inspired SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence around the world. The evidence is very glaringly as one set of statistical example shows;



Btw, I always provide some kind of evidence as proofs and justifications while you are merely denying blindly all the time without any solid justifications at all.
Having a Ph.D in Islamic studies is no indication the person is a Muslim. A number of non-Muslims have degrees in Islamic Studies. It is almost common for Non-Muslim Authors to have a degree in Islamic studies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islami...im_or_academic)

There is no requirement for a person to be Muslim to attend an Islamic School or University

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrasa

Islamic Schools do not correspond with being a "Seminary" there is no religious seminary for Muslim clerics and no specific education is required to be a cleric as there are no ordained clergy, every Muslim is clergy.

Even many non-Muslim universities offer degrees in Islamic Studies

2016 Best Colleges Offering Islamic Studies Degrees

Having a PhD in Islamic studies is not proof the individual is a Muslim or practices Islam

al-Baghdadi's views of Islam have been denounced by prominent Islamic Scholars world wide

» Muslim Scholars Letter to Al-Baghdadi of ISIS or ISIL

The University of Baghdad is open to non-Muslim as are all Islamic Universities except those in Mecca and Medina

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Baghdad
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 08-16-2016 at 08:21 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-16-2016, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Often such reports are not complete and do not reflect much of reality of the situation and conditions. Sources of knowledge from those captured and renegades are often bias and they will tell what the interrogators want to hear.

To get a more complete picture we need a proper and detailed study but that is not possible because ISIS is not accessible to unbiased researchers.

Nevertheless the best we can is to infer from circumstantial evidences;

1. No doubt there will be thrill seekers but the numbers of such perverts are minimal, therefore they can be discounted for consideration in such cases.

2. No Muslims will dare to go against Allah's words and commands, therefore however they act, their actions must be an attempt to comply with Allah's commands as in the Quran [or Ahadith].

3. We know Abu Bakar Baghdadi has a Phd in Islamic Knowledge, so we cannot insist ISIS is managed by some ignorant fools who do not understand what is expected in the Quran from Allah. I don't have exact information but I believe the top echelons of ISIS must comprised of people who have thorough knowledge of the Quran and Islam or else they will not be respected by the followers.

4. The above report itself indicated there are a % of followers who have knowledge of Sharia, etc. The point is only natural that we do not expect 100% of followers of any ideological group to be well versed with the ideology. Surely not all German Nazi would have read the Main Kempf.

5. The main root cause here is the establishment of a new ideology and the majority of humans are always desperate to cling to some sort of ideology. In the case of religious ideology, the majority of humans are desperate for salvation to eternal life and will cling to any ideology to feel the ease and relieve from the terrible inherent and unavoidable mental angst.

6. The worst of an ideology [religious or secular] is when the ideology contain evil laden element that will influence and inspire SOME followers who are naturally born with evil tendencies to be influenced and inspired to commit terrible evils and violence. This is what happened with ISIS where the evil prone gathered together with the sincere zeal to do their duty to please Allah as ordained in the Quran.


It is not a question of whether ISIS represent Islam or not.
Rather we must find out whether ISIS members individually and collective perform Islam in accordance to the terms and conditions in the Quran and no where else.

This meant do they perform the following;
1. 5 pillars of Islam
2. 6 pillars of Imam
3. x pillars of Ihsan
4. Comply with other terms and conditions in the Quran

Without going into details, based on what I have read, I believe many members has perform a majority of the above pillars and comply with more terms and conditions than the ordinary non-ISIS Muslims.

What is critical here is whether the members of ISIS commit any unpardonable sin like attributing partners to Allah. I have not read they have committed unpardonable sins.
Whatever sins they have committed are forgivable and pardonable and they will go to Paradise.

If we are to use the 6,236 verses as a checklist of compliance as a truer Muslim, I believe many of the Muslims of ISIS are truer Muslims in comparison to the majority of moderates.

If the Muslims of ISIS are truer Muslims and they commit so much terrible evils and violence, then we must look at the Quran [in part] seriously.
All anyone can do is to point to the actions of ISIS and give references that contradict such actions.

As to how knowledgeable are ISIS members of Islam? These photos might give an indication, even most non-Muslims know we pray Salat facing Mecca.

http://onehallyu.com/topic/144504-is...-directions-i/
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top