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Old 08-17-2016, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
WoodrowLI, you don't get to make up your own definition, you should let the expert juju33312 to make the definition for you.
Correct Kalif.

My error for the past 10 years I thought Islam was the act of Submitting to Allaah(swt) and a Muslim was a person who performed Islam. I never realized it required membership and I was supposed to join something.

Should I ask the local Imam to send me a membership card? OOOOps, silly me I forgot I am the local Imam.
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Old 08-17-2016, 06:27 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,612 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
WoodrowLI, you don't get to make up your own definition, you should let the expert juju33312 to make the definition for you.
No, you should look in the dictionary like I did.

Definitions are not subjective and do not rest on the whim of people like woodow ri.

"Truth is the product of the recognition (i.e., identification) of the facts of reality. Man identifies and integrates the facts of reality by means of concepts. He retains concepts in his mind by means of definitions. He organizes concepts into propositions—and the truth or falsehood of his propositions rests, not only on their relation to the facts he asserts, but also on the truth or falsehood of the definitions of the concepts he uses to assert them, which rests on the truth or falsehood of his designations of essential characteristics.....
Definitions are the guardians of rationality, the first line of defense against the chaos of mental disintegration." Ayn Rand

This is pure garbage:

"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "

Go around telling people that there are Muslims who don't follow islam and see what confusion you encounter.

And start using a dictionary.
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Old 08-17-2016, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
No, you should look in the dictionary like I did.

Definitions are not subjective and do not rest on the whim of people like woodow ri.

"Truth is the product of the recognition (i.e., identification) of the facts of reality. Man identifies and integrates the facts of reality by means of concepts. He retains concepts in his mind by means of definitions. He organizes concepts into propositions—and the truth or falsehood of his propositions rests, not only on their relation to the facts he asserts, but also on the truth or falsehood of the definitions of the concepts he uses to assert them, which rests on the truth or falsehood of his designations of essential characteristics.....
Definitions are the guardians of rationality, the first line of defense against the chaos of mental disintegration." Ayn Rand

This is pure garbage:

"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "

Go around telling people that there are Muslims who don't follow islam and see what confusion you encounter.

And start using a dictionary.
Use an Arabic dictionary if you want the Arabic definition of an Arabicword. Islam does not match the English language word religion. It is a De'en.

There is no required clergy, Islam has no ordained clergy, every adult Muslim is clergy. There is no Religious service attendance required. We can perform our Salat alone in the privacy of our home. The only attendance required is adult males physically able are to pray in congregation once a week at Jummah, if it does not pose a hardship. That can be done by neighbors praying together in their home, it need not be in a Mosque.

Islam is a verb and means "To submit to Allah" A person who performs Islam is a Muslim (Male) Muslimah (female) The is no membership. There is no required teaching, there is no required attendance in a house of worship, there is no ordained clergy, Everything a Muslim does requires personal responsibility no one can prove he is a Muslim. Likewise no way can prove a person is not performing Islam. We only know who claims to be a Muslim and unless the person is consistently doing unIslamic acts after being corrected multiple times he is accepted as being a Muslim if he says he is. Even if he has never read the Qur'an or performed any visible action of Islam.

There are many people who are not Muslim saying they are Muslims. No one knows who is a Muslim. That is between the individual and Allaah(swt). There is no excommunication in Islam because a Muslim does not join something.

A Muslim is a person who performs Islam of his own free-will and to the best of his ability. The only reason I assume you are not a Muslim is because you have made it known you do not perform Islam. However, you probably come closer to performing Islam than most members of ISIS.
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Old 08-18-2016, 12:11 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,612 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Use an Arabic dictionary if you want the Arabic definition of an Arabicword. Islam does not match the English language word religion. It is a De'en.

There is no required clergy, Islam has no ordained clergy, every adult Muslim is clergy. There is no Religious service attendance required. We can perform our Salat alone in the privacy of our home. The only attendance required is adult males physically able are to pray in congregation once a week at Jummah, if it does not pose a hardship. That can be done by neighbors praying together in their home, it need not be in a Mosque.

Islam is a verb and means "To submit to Allah" A person who performs Islam is a Muslim (Male) Muslimah (female) The is no membership. There is no required teaching, there is no required attendance in a house of worship, there is no ordained clergy, Everything a Muslim does requires personal responsibility no one can prove he is a Muslim. Likewise no way can prove a person is not performing Islam. We only know who claims to be a Muslim and unless the person is consistently doing unIslamic acts after being corrected multiple times he is accepted as being a Muslim if he says he is. Even if he has never read the Qur'an or performed any visible action of Islam.

There are many people who are not Muslim saying they are Muslims. No one knows who is a Muslim. That is between the individual and Allaah(swt). There is no excommunication in Islam because a Muslim does not join something.

A Muslim is a person who performs Islam of his own free-will and to the best of his ability. The only reason I assume you are not a Muslim is because you have made it known you do not perform Islam. However, you probably come closer to performing Islam than most members of ISIS.

You say:
"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "
And you then say:
"Islam is a verb and means "To submit to Allah"
Then you say:
"A Muslim is a person who performs Islam of his own free-will and to the best of his ability. "

So, a Muslim is a person who does and does not follow Islam. According to you. I have never heard anyone say they are a Muslim and they don't follow Islam.

"In Parts of Europe less than 75% of the Muslims believe in the Existence of heaven and hell,"

Then they think much of the Quran, written by allah, is hogwash. Muslims can think the Quran is garbage. OK. And they don't follow Islam. According to you.

" In parts of Africa up to 55% of the Muslims do not believe the Qur'an is God's Word."

Yes, we just established that many Muslims think the quran is garbage. According to you.

" In the Mideastern and North African Muslim Nations less than half the Muslims read the Qur'an or do the obligatory prayers."

Seems they are not Muslims if the prayers are obligatory. Obligatory for what? Being a Muslim?

" The only attendance required is adult males physically able are to pray in congregation once a week at Jummah, if it does not pose a hardship. "

or

" In the Mideastern and North African Muslim Nations less than half the Muslims read the Qur'an or do the obligatory prayers."

You have cognitive dissonance.
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Old 08-18-2016, 12:14 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,612 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

My error for the past 10 years I thought Islam was the act of Submitting to Allaah(swt) and a Muslim was a person who performed Islam.
Then why do you say this:

"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "
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Old 08-18-2016, 01:57 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Correct Kalif.

My error for the past 10 years I thought Islam was the act of Submitting to Allaah(swt) and a Muslim was a person who performed Islam. I never realized it required membership and I was supposed to join something.

Should I ask the local Imam to send me a membership card? OOOOps, silly me I forgot I am the local Imam.
As an imam, did you issue any membership cards to other members which confirmed that they are "Muslims"?

Wait a sec! We do not need to show anyone that we have a membership card. They will still say we are Muslims because it said in their dictionaries.

When Muslims come to visit me and the talk moves on to Deen, they often ask me, "which firqa (sect) you belong to?" I tell them that I do not have membership card of any "firqa". I do not believe that I need to be part of any sect.

To be a Muslim, one does not need to be part of any sect or have a Muslim membership card as no such membership card exists but one must believe and submit to Allah correctly. This is individual act. I am responsible for my individual action. I am not responsible for anyone else's action. Each person's book of deeds is individual book.
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Old 08-18-2016, 02:08 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
My error for the past 10 years I thought Islam was the act of Submitting to Allaah(swt) and a Muslim was a person who performed Islam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Then why do you say this:

"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "
Because they do not perform Islam!

OOOOPS! Did I say something wrong?

Saying "ALLAHU AKBAR" does not prove that someone is a Muslim. Even a Kafir is able to say "ALLAHU AKBAR". I cannot discount the possibility that even juju33312 has said it in the past.
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Old 08-18-2016, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Then why do you say this:

"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "
Because we do not know who is a Muslim. Every person that claims to be Muslims is to be considered Muslim. Only the individual and Allaah(swt) know if a person is performing Islam.

I should have worded it as "The point being there are those claiming to be Muslims that do not seem to follow Islam. "

Personally, if someone tells me they are Muslim, I assume they are Muslim. There is no way anyone can prove to another person they are Muslim. Like wise there is no way to prove a person is not Muslim. If a person tells me they are not Muslim I accept them at their word. There is no way to prove anyone is not Muslim.
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:33 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,612 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Because we do not know who is a Muslim. Every person that claims to be Muslims is to be considered Muslim. Only the individual and Allaah(swt) know if a person is performing Islam.

I should have worded it as "The point being there are those claiming to be Muslims that do not seem to follow Islam. "

Personally, if someone tells me they are Muslim, I assume they are Muslim. There is no way anyone can prove to another person they are Muslim. Like wise there is no way to prove a person is not Muslim. If a person tells me they are not Muslim I accept them at their word. There is no way to prove anyone is not Muslim.
You stated an absolute, and it was not a problem with 'wording':

"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "

Now you have been caught out and are trying to backtrack and obfuscate while still contradicting yourself.

"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "
vs
" Because we do not know who is a Muslim...... Only the individual and Allaah(swt) know if a person is performing Islam. "

You say: " In the Mideastern and North African Muslim Nations less than half the Muslims read the Qur'an or do the obligatory prayers."

Then you say: "Only the individual and Allaah(swt) know if a person is performing Islam. "

Are you claiming that allah speaks directly with you and tells you this? I'm thinking you got this off the internet.

You attempt to make fun of me in a juvenile fashion for catching your hogwash and contradictions. Think about that.
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Old 08-18-2016, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
You stated an absolute, and it was not a problem with 'wording':

"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "

Now you have been caught out and are trying to backtrack and obfuscate while still contradicting yourself.

"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "
vs
" Because we do not know who is a Muslim...... Only the individual and Allaah(swt) know if a person is performing Islam. "

You say: " In the Mideastern and North African Muslim Nations less than half the Muslims read the Qur'an or do the obligatory prayers."

Then you say: "Only the individual and Allaah(swt) know if a person is performing Islam. "

Are you claiming that allah speaks directly with you and tells you this? I'm thinking you got this off the internet.

You attempt to make fun of me in a juvenile fashion for catching your hogwash and contradictions. Think about that.

I will attempt to clarify without causing more confusion

No one knows if another person is a Muslim..As performing Islam is not just an action, it entails the individuals intent and his level of knowledge. Also the fact that someone fails to do what is obligatory does not mean the person is no longer a Muslim.

I could refuse to do the five prayers, eat pork chops during the fasting hours of Ramadan and still be a Muslim, however I will face punishments in hell for deliberately doing such. But, that will not mean I am no longer a Muslim.

I still contend there are Muslims that do not always perform Islam.

But, I am beginning to think it might be easier for non-Muslims to comprehend if I phrase it as "There are people who say they are Muslim, but do not follow Islam."

As too where and how I learned about Islam. I began back in the 1960s when I was a Christian Evangelist using the Qur'an to convert Muslims to Christianity. Later It was studying comparative religions simply out of curiosity. After reverting to Islam I studied under the Tutelage of 3 Scholars from Pakistan, who lived in Austin. In addition I am on several Islamic websites and my own Muslim Brothers and Sisters are quick to privately point out to me if they believe something I say is not correct. Even on this forum I will get DMs from Muslim member correcting me if I am in error.

Getting back to what I was saying, I believe their are Muslims who do not follow Islam. But I am learning that to avoid confusing some people it might be best if I refer to them as people who say they are Muslim.
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