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Old 08-19-2016, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
No matter how irrational you believe it to be, most Muslims do believe all people are born Muslim. To me I find that to be very logical as I do believe a creator does exist. I believe it is out of fairness he would start all people as equals and allow a person's own free will to reject if they desire too when they have developed sufficient knowledge to have free will.
I understand a Muslim must live exclusively inside an Islam-silo otherwise his/her faith will not work effectively. Therefore a Muslim must comply with their authorized holy texts, i.e. Allah's word [as in the Quran-Only] without fail.

Whilst I have no qualms at all with any one's need to be a theist because that is a critical necessity for the majority people at the present [not necessary future], what is unfortunate is the negative contents in their holy texts.

A wise religion should not include texts that has evil elements and insult non-believers merely they have a different belief or are not theists. Rather a wise religion should focus solely on the spiritual development of the individual [therefrom group] to deal with the inherent mother of all existential desperation, angst, despairs, anxieties, hopeless, emptiness, and the likes.

Therefore I find it an insult when Muslims insist I am born [for no good basis] a Muslim when this is declared in public and not privately and personally within the Islam-Silo. In addition, this insult cannot be kept private because it is stated in the Quran. I believe this is implicit and not explicit in the Quran and it is likely a wrong interpretation.
In addition, this [if it is the case] is also unnecessary in the first place.

I believe such a statement that all are born Muslims ["us"] then disbelieve and become non-Muslims [them] do generate subliminal antagonistic feelings within Muslims against non-Muslims.
This concept "all are born Muslim" stirred the 'us versus them' impulse negatively and feed the evil prone Muslims to have contempt for non-Muslims and with the additional evil laden verses, this would be compounded to be potential genocide again non-Muslims. This has already happened in reality [note the Yazidis] and this;



and this recent.
An Egyptian athlete refuses to shake the hand of an Israeli after
losing a Judo match in Rio.


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Old 08-20-2016, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I understand a Muslim must live exclusively inside an Islam-silo otherwise his/her faith will not work effectively. Therefore a Muslim must comply with their authorized holy texts, i.e. Allah's word [as in the Quran-Only] without fail.

Whilst I have no qualms at all with any one's need to be a theist because that is a critical necessity for the majority people at the present [not necessary future], what is unfortunate is the negative contents in their holy texts.

A wise religion should not include texts that has evil elements and insult non-believers merely they have a different belief or are not theists. Rather a wise religion should focus solely on the spiritual development of the individual [therefrom group] to deal with the inherent mother of all existential desperation, angst, despairs, anxieties, hopeless, emptiness, and the likes.

Therefore I find it an insult when Muslims insist I am born [for no good basis] a Muslim when this is declared in public and not privately and personally within the Islam-Silo. In addition, this insult cannot be kept private because it is stated in the Quran. I believe this is implicit and not explicit in the Quran and it is likely a wrong interpretation.
In addition, this [if it is the case] is also unnecessary in the first place.

I believe such a statement that all are born Muslims ["us"] then disbelieve and become non-Muslims [them] do generate subliminal antagonistic feelings within Muslims against non-Muslims.
This concept "all are born Muslim" stirred the 'us versus them' impulse negatively and feed the evil prone Muslims to have contempt for non-Muslims and with the additional evil laden verses, this would be compounded to be potential genocide again non-Muslims. This has already happened in reality [note the Yazidis] and this;



and this recent.
An Egyptian athlete refuses to shake the hand of an Israeli after
losing a Judo match in Rio.

I do not know if those incidents are related to Religion. Egyptian Jews also show similar disdain towards Israelis.

Jewish Ideas Daily » Daily Features » The Egyptian Jewish Remnant, Against Israel

Also with the Kurds, that was a genocide by Saddam. Not because the Kurds were Yazidi but because they were Kurds. The Kurds have been fighting for a homeland for a very long time and have been treated as foreign invaders where ever they have tried to establish a nation

Kurds - A People Without a State | Novelguide

I equate the plight of the Kurds similar to the plight of the people I live among. "The Lakota" who for a long time now have been striving to establish a Nation (The Republic of Lakota)on the land they originally occupied. On occasion it erupts in bloodshed. The last time was the "Second Wounded Knee Massacre" in 1973. Although less violent encounters are frequently seen even today. At the moment I see strong possibility of violence as proponents of the Keystone Pipeline attempt to cross tribal lands. I know people on Crow Creek that will oppose it to the death. the Lakota face very similar thinks here in America the Kurds face in Turkey and Iraq. Nobody calls it a religious issue. The Kurd plight also is not religious. It is the problem of people trying to form their own Nation in a land occupied by people that oppose them doing so.
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Old 08-20-2016, 09:13 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
the fact is it is true. Most Muslims believe all people are born Muslim and remain Muslim until the age of accountability and follow another path.

That is not my belief alone.
So what? This is an example of your terrible epistemology.

"In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, and bandwagon fallacy (also known as a vox populi),[2] and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea.

This fallacy is sometimes committed while trying to convince a person that a widely popular thought is true, based solely on the fact that it is a widely popular thought. In the Argumentum ad populum, the population's experience, expertise or authority is not taken into consideration by the author.:

Nine out of ten people in the United States claim this bill is a bad idea, therefore this bill is bad for the people.
Fifty million Elvis fans can't be wrong.
Everyone's doing it, therefore it must be good.
In a court of law, the jury vote by majority; therefore they will always make the correct decision.
Many people buy extended warranties, therefore it is wise to buy them.
Millions of people agree with my viewpoint, therefore it must be right.
The majority of this country voted for this president, therefore this president must, objectively, be a good President.
My family or tribe holds this as a truth, therefore everyone who disagrees is simply wrong.
No one else has ever complained about this, therefore no one can complain about it (it is good). See also Argument from Ignorance

The argumentum ad populum is a red herring and genetic fallacy. It appeals on probabilistic terms; given that 75% of a population answers A to a question where the answer is unknown, the argument states that it is reasonable to assume that the answer is indeed A. In cases where the answer can be known but is not known by a questioned entity, the appeal to majority provides a possible answer with a relatively high probability of correctness.

There is the problem of determining just how many are needed to have a majority or consensus. Is merely greater than 50% significant enough and why? Should the percentage be larger, such as 80 or 90 percent, and how does that make a real difference? Is there real consensus if there are one or even two people who have a different claim that is proven to be true?

It is logically fallacious because the mere fact that a belief is widely held does not necessarily guarantee that the belief is correct; if the belief of any individual can be wrong, then the belief held by multiple persons can also be wrong. The argument that because 75% of people polled think the answer is A implies that the answer is A fails, because, if opinion did determine truth, then there would be no way to deal with the discrepancy between the 75% of the sample population that believe the answer is A and 25% who are of the opinion that the answer is not A. However small a percentage of those polled give an answer other than A, this discrepancy by definition disproves any guarantee of the correctness of the majority. In addition, this would be true even if the answer given by those polled were unanimous, as the sample size may be insufficient, or some fact may be unknown to those polled that, if known, would result in a different distribution of answers.

This fallacy is similar in structure to certain other fallacies that involve a confusion between the justification of a belief and its widespread acceptance by a given group of people. When an argument uses the appeal to the beliefs of a group of supposed experts, it takes on the form of an appeal to authority; if the appeal is to the beliefs of a group of respected elders or the members of one's community over a long period of time, then it takes on the form of an appeal to tradition.

One who commits this fallacy may assume that individuals commonly analyze and edit their beliefs and behaviors. This is often not the case (see conformity).

The argumentum ad populum can be a valid argument in inductive logic; for example, a poll of a sizeable population may find that 90% prefer a certain brand of product over another. A cogent (strong) argument can then be made that the next person to be considered will also prefer that brand, and the poll is valid evidence of that claim. However, it is unsuitable as an argument for deductive reasoning as proof, for instance to say that the poll proves that the preferred brand is superior to the competition in its composition or that everyone prefers that brand to the other.

Evidence[edit]
One could claim that smoking is a healthy pastime, since millions of people do it. However, knowing the dangers of smoking, we instead say that smoking is not a healthy pastime despite the fact that millions do it.
At a time in history when most people believed the world was flat, one could have claimed the world is flat because most believed it.
Advocates of heliocentrism, such as Galileo Galilei were strongly suppressed, despite scientific evidence, now recognized as factual, that supported heliocentrism at the expense of geocentrism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
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Old 08-20-2016, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
So what? This is an example of your terrible epistemology.

"In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, and bandwagon fallacy (also known as a vox populi),[2] and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea.

This fallacy is sometimes committed while trying to convince a person that a widely popular thought is true, based solely on the fact that it is a widely popular thought. In the Argumentum ad populum, the population's experience, expertise or authority is not taken into consideration by the author.:

Nine out of ten people in the United States claim this bill is a bad idea, therefore this bill is bad for the people.
Fifty million Elvis fans can't be wrong.
Everyone's doing it, therefore it must be good.
In a court of law, the jury vote by majority; therefore they will always make the correct decision.
Many people buy extended warranties, therefore it is wise to buy them.
Millions of people agree with my viewpoint, therefore it must be right.
The majority of this country voted for this president, therefore this president must, objectively, be a good President.
My family or tribe holds this as a truth, therefore everyone who disagrees is simply wrong.
No one else has ever complained about this, therefore no one can complain about it (it is good). See also Argument from Ignorance

The argumentum ad populum is a red herring and genetic fallacy. It appeals on probabilistic terms; given that 75% of a population answers A to a question where the answer is unknown, the argument states that it is reasonable to assume that the answer is indeed A. In cases where the answer can be known but is not known by a questioned entity, the appeal to majority provides a possible answer with a relatively high probability of correctness.

There is the problem of determining just how many are needed to have a majority or consensus. Is merely greater than 50% significant enough and why? Should the percentage be larger, such as 80 or 90 percent, and how does that make a real difference? Is there real consensus if there are one or even two people who have a different claim that is proven to be true?

It is logically fallacious because the mere fact that a belief is widely held does not necessarily guarantee that the belief is correct; if the belief of any individual can be wrong, then the belief held by multiple persons can also be wrong. The argument that because 75% of people polled think the answer is A implies that the answer is A fails, because, if opinion did determine truth, then there would be no way to deal with the discrepancy between the 75% of the sample population that believe the answer is A and 25% who are of the opinion that the answer is not A. However small a percentage of those polled give an answer other than A, this discrepancy by definition disproves any guarantee of the correctness of the majority. In addition, this would be true even if the answer given by those polled were unanimous, as the sample size may be insufficient, or some fact may be unknown to those polled that, if known, would result in a different distribution of answers.

This fallacy is similar in structure to certain other fallacies that involve a confusion between the justification of a belief and its widespread acceptance by a given group of people. When an argument uses the appeal to the beliefs of a group of supposed experts, it takes on the form of an appeal to authority; if the appeal is to the beliefs of a group of respected elders or the members of one's community over a long period of time, then it takes on the form of an appeal to tradition.

One who commits this fallacy may assume that individuals commonly analyze and edit their beliefs and behaviors. This is often not the case (see conformity).

The argumentum ad populum can be a valid argument in inductive logic; for example, a poll of a sizeable population may find that 90% prefer a certain brand of product over another. A cogent (strong) argument can then be made that the next person to be considered will also prefer that brand, and the poll is valid evidence of that claim. However, it is unsuitable as an argument for deductive reasoning as proof, for instance to say that the poll proves that the preferred brand is superior to the competition in its composition or that everyone prefers that brand to the other.

Evidence[edit]
One could claim that smoking is a healthy pastime, since millions of people do it. However, knowing the dangers of smoking, we instead say that smoking is not a healthy pastime despite the fact that millions do it.
At a time in history when most people believed the world was flat, one could have claimed the world is flat because most believed it.
Advocates of heliocentrism, such as Galileo Galilei were strongly suppressed, despite scientific evidence, now recognized as factual, that supported heliocentrism at the expense of geocentrism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
My point was in regards to your accusation I was lieing when I stated "Most Muslims believe all people are born Muslim" I showed evidence that is an actual belief and teaching of Islam. As to if it is a true statement is irrelevant. I was not lieing when I said it is an Islamic Belief.

As much as you dislike it and disagree, when you are in an Islamic forum, you will be exposed to Islamic beliefs. A purpose of this forum is for non-Muslims to discover what Muslims actually believe. Not what the anti-Islamic sites accuse us of believing.

Of course you believe our beliefs are false beliefs, If you believed them you would be a Muslim.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 08-20-2016 at 10:30 AM..
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Old 08-20-2016, 05:07 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
My point was in regards to your accusation I was lieing when I stated "Most Muslims believe all people are born Muslim" I showed evidence that is an actual belief and teaching of Islam. As to if it is a true statement is irrelevant. I was not lieing when I said it is an Islamic Belief.

As much as you dislike it and disagree, when you are in an Islamic forum, you will be exposed to Islamic beliefs. A purpose of this forum is for non-Muslims to discover what Muslims actually believe. Not what the anti-Islamic sites accuse us of believing.

Of course you believe our beliefs are false beliefs, If you believed them you would be a Muslim.
I have asked you before..when you accuse me of something, post exactly what I said. Do a cut and paste.

Now, cut and paste where I accused you of lying when you stated "Most Muslims believe all people are born Muslim.
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Old 08-20-2016, 05:54 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As much as you dislike it and disagree, when you are in an Islamic forum, you will be exposed to Islamic beliefs. A purpose of this forum is for non-Muslims to discover what Muslims actually believe. Not what the anti-Islamic sites accuse us of believing.

Of course you believe our beliefs are false beliefs, If you believed them you would be a Muslim.
Like it or not, the quran and hadiths prove that Islam is a perverted, sick and evil ideology. You can spin it as much as you like. And in addition to that, we can all see what Muslims are doing in the west. The mass rapes, the demands for shariah, the acts of terrorism, pooping in the streets and yards of the people who took them in, the enslavement and rape of children, the hatred of Jews and western values and non-Muslims. It's in the news every day.

You think you can spin all this away by obfuscation and tired old excuses like context and translation and anti-Muslim websites....sorry, but the evidence is overwhelming. The millions slaughtered in the name of Islam. The millions enslaved in the name of Islam. The countless women raped, stoned, beaten ... in the name of Islam. All the countries that have been invaded and taken over and ruined in the name of Islam.

This:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zzEhqflkZg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLakFXCKUqA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJi26Kw83ow


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh28XcnpzX4

This is what Islam brings.
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Old 08-20-2016, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I have asked you before..when you accuse me of something, post exactly what I said. Do a cut and paste.

Now, cut and paste where I accused you of lying when you stated "Most Muslims believe all people are born Muslim.
A summation of the conversation:

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Then why do you say this:

"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Because we do not know who is a Muslim. Every person that claims to be Muslims is to be considered Muslim. Only the individual and Allaah(swt) know if a person is performing Islam.

I should have worded it as "The point being there are those claiming to be Muslims that do not seem to follow Islam. "

Personally, if someone tells me they are Muslim, I assume they are Muslim. There is no way anyone can prove to another person they are Muslim. Like wise there is no way to prove a person is not Muslim. If a person tells me they are not Muslim I accept them at their word. There is no way to prove anyone is not Muslim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
You stated an absolute, and it was not a problem with 'wording':

"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "

Now you have been caught out and are trying to backtrack and obfuscate while still contradicting yourself.

"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "
vs
" Because we do not know who is a Muslim...... Only the individual and Allaah(swt) know if a person is performing Islam. "

You say: " In the Mideastern and North African Muslim Nations less than half the Muslims read the Qur'an or do the obligatory prayers."

Then you say: "Only the individual and Allaah(swt) know if a person is performing Islam. "

Are you claiming that allah speaks directly with you and tells you this? I'm thinking you got this off the internet.

You attempt to make fun of me in a juvenile fashion for catching your hogwash and contradictions. Think about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I will attempt to clarify without causing more confusion

No one knows if another person is a Muslim..As performing Islam is not just an action, it entails the individuals intent and his level of knowledge. Also the fact that someone fails to do what is obligatory does not mean the person is no longer a Muslim.

I could refuse to do the five prayers, eat pork chops during the fasting hours of Ramadan and still be a Muslim, however I will face punishments in hell for deliberately doing such. But, that will not mean I am no longer a Muslim.

I still contend there are Muslims that do not always perform Islam.

But, I am beginning to think it might be easier for non-Muslims to comprehend if I phrase it as "There are people who say they are Muslim, but do not follow Islam."

As too where and how I learned about Islam. I began back in the 1960s when I was a Christian Evangelist using the Qur'an to convert Muslims to Christianity. Later It was studying comparative religions simply out of curiosity. After reverting to Islam I studied under the Tutelage of 3 Scholars from Pakistan, who lived in Austin. In addition I am on several Islamic websites and my own Muslim Brothers and Sisters are quick to privately point out to me if they believe something I say is not correct. Even on this forum I will get DMs from Muslim member correcting me if I am in error.

Getting back to what I was saying, I believe their are Muslims who do not follow Islam. But I am learning that to avoid confusing some people it might be best if I refer to them as people who say they are Muslim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Then they are not Muslim. Just like a person who does not follow Christianity is not a Christian. A fundamental, essential distinguishing characteristic of 'Muslim' is one who follows Islam.

Believe what you like but don't present hogwash here and expect me to believe it. Over and over I find you are wrong. Your credibility is shot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I have neither the desire nor need to impress you or anyone else. When people ask what I believe I state what I believe. My opinions are my opinions and I alone am responsible for them. I have no idea what any other Muslim believes except what they say they believe. You and maybe some Muslims will disagree with me, but I alone am accountable for what I believe and I will stick with what I have personally found.

I believe some Muslims do not follow Islam, that is my opinion. If you want the opinion of other Muslims you might have to ask them.

Some specific examples of Muslims that do not follow all 5 "Pillars of Islam"

1. All people from the time of birth until they reach the age of accountability are Muslim. No matter how much you disagree with it or dislike it, you were born Muslim and remained Muslim until you reached the age of accountability.

2. Those that for reasons beyond their control are not aware of all 5 "Pillars of Faith, but have said the Shahadah are Muslim

3. Jews, Sabians and Christians of the past were Muslim, possibly there still are some that are.


For that matter the only people I can say are not Muslims are those who have specifically stated they are not Muslim and say so with knowledge and of their own free will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
It is not a matter of impressing. It is a matter of credibility. Over and over you post your opinion and are proved wrong. Over and over you assert things that are simply hogwash, like "All people from the time of birth until they reach the age of accountability are Muslim."

You want to toss aside objective definitions and come up with your own subjective definitions based on whim and in defiance of the law of identity. I'm not letting you get away with that.
Your exact words:


Quote:
You stated an absolute, and it was not a problem with 'wording':

"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "

Now you have been caught out and are trying to backtrack and obfuscate while still contradicting yourself.
Obfuscate definition:
ob•fus•cate


v.t. -cat•ed, -cat•ing.
1. to confuse.
2. to make unclear.
3. to darken.







You are stating I am deliberately confusing the issue, which is deceit. You essentially accused me of being a liar.



You basically stated I made up the statement "All people are born Muslim, and remain Muslim until they reach the age of accountability" to confuse thee issue


It is a fact - a teaching of Islam is all people are born Muslim and remain such until reach the age of accountability----They are just one group of Muslim, that do not follow the 5 "Pillars of Islam"
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Old 08-20-2016, 11:36 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A summation of the conversation:

Your exact words:

Obfuscate definition:
ob•fus•cate


v.t. -cat•ed, -cat•ing.
1. to confuse.
2. to make unclear.
3. to darken.

You are stating I am deliberately confusing the issue, which is deceit. You essentially accused me of being a liar.

You basically stated I made up the statement "All people are born Muslim, and remain Muslim until they reach the age of accountability" to confuse thee issue


It is a fact - a teaching of Islam is all people are born Muslim and remain such until reach the age of accountability----They are just one group of Muslim, that do not follow the 5 "Pillars of Islam"
More garbage. In fact, my comment about your obfuscation was made about this statement of yours and was said well before the nonsense of other muslims thinking everyone is born Muslim!!

You stated an absolute, and it was not a problem with 'wording':

"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "

Now you have been caught out and are trying to backtrack and obfuscate while still contradicting yourself.
Post made on 08-18-2016, 11:33 AM

First mention (BY YOU) of everyone being born muslim was on 08-18-2016, 10:42 PM

So my comment on obfuscation was made before 'everyone being born muslim' was even mentioned BY YOU and was directed at your assertion that " there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "

Now, cut and paste where I accused you of lying when you stated "Most Muslims believe all people are born Muslim."

Actually, never mind, I don't need to spend any more time on this. I know what I said.

And as I have told you before, when you want to accuse me of saying something, cope and paste what I did say. DO NOT put your dishonesty on me.
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Old 08-21-2016, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Candy Kingdom
3,228 posts, read 2,855,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
More garbage. In fact, my comment about your obfuscation was made about this statement of yours and was said well before the nonsense of other muslims thinking everyone is born Muslim!!

You stated an absolute, and it was not a problem with 'wording':

"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "

Now you have been caught out and are trying to backtrack and obfuscate while still contradicting yourself.
Post made on 08-18-2016, 11:33 AM

First mention (BY YOU) of everyone being born muslim was on 08-18-2016, 10:42 PM

So my comment on obfuscation was made before 'everyone being born muslim' was even mentioned BY YOU and was directed at your assertion that " there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "

Now, cut and paste where I accused you of lying when you stated "Most Muslims believe all people are born Muslim."

Actually, never mind, I don't need to spend any more time on this. I know what I said.

And as I have told you before, when you want to accuse me of saying something, cope and paste what I did say. DO NOT put your dishonesty on me.
I think you are a very angry person. Woodrow is not trying to confuse others because there are even Christians and Jews that say they are of those religions in name, but don't actually practice. I have a Jewish friend that is Jewish in name, but she doesn't follow Kosher laws (she'll eat pork and shellfish). However, she will still go to Synagogue during holidays and her son made his sacraments. My dad calls himself a Christmas-Easter Catholic,but he doesn't really follow Catholicism (he is interested in Judaism). There are Western Muslims that call themselves Muslims, but don't really follow the teachings. I met a Moroccan Muslim at the beach and he drank alcohol. He asked if I drank and I said, "No, I don't." He laughed and said, "you're more Arab than I am!" I don't judge people; it's not my place to judge.
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Old 08-21-2016, 12:42 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessxwrites89 View Post
I think you are a very angry person. Woodrow is not trying to confuse others because there are even Christians and Jews that say they are of those religions in name, but don't actually practice. I have a Jewish friend that is Jewish in name, but she doesn't follow Kosher laws (she'll eat pork and shellfish). However, she will still go to Synagogue during holidays and her son made his sacraments. My dad calls himself a Christmas-Easter Catholic,but he doesn't really follow Catholicism (he is interested in Judaism). There are Western Muslims that call themselves Muslims, but don't really follow the teachings. I met a Moroccan Muslim at the beach and he drank alcohol. He asked if I drank and I said, "No, I don't." He laughed and said, "you're more Arab than I am!" I don't judge people; it's not my place to judge.
I am angry about many things in Islam. The rape of children, the terrorism, the hatred, the rioting, the slavery, the horrid treatment of women, the mass rapes in Europe, the demands for shariah law in the west, the millions slaughtered in the name of Islam...I an angry because I hold justice as one of my moral values and stand against evil, which is the INITIATION of force against others.

Yes, I do judge. Everyone should judge when it is a matter of good or evil.
"One must never fail to pronounce moral judgment.

Nothing can corrupt and disintegrate a culture or a man’s character as thoroughly as does the precept of moral agnosticism, the idea that one must never pass moral judgment on others, that one must be morally tolerant of anything, that the good consists of never distinguishing good from evil.

It is obvious who profits and who loses by such a precept. It is not justice or equal treatment that you grant to men when you abstain equally from praising men’s virtues and from condemning men’s vices. When your impartial attitude declares, in effect, that neither the good nor the evil may expect anything from you—whom do you betray and whom do you encourage?"
- Ayn Rand

By not judging, you support evil.

Yes, there are Jews that do not practice ....if you had bothered to look up the definition, you would see this:

someone whose religion is Judaism, who is descended from Jewish people, or who participates in the culture surrounding Judaism

Jew | Definition of Jew by Merriam-Webster

This is not the case in Islam. It is not a matter of being descended from Muslims or just following the culture.

From the same dictionary:
Muslim: a person whose religion is Islam : a follower of Islam: an adherent of Islam

Islam: the religious faith of Muslims including belief in Allah as the sole deity and in Muhammad as his prophet

Muslims who do not follow Islam are not Muslims. Period. They do not believe in allah as the sole deity or in Muhammed as his prophet. These things are FUNDAMENTAL to being a Muslim.

As far as Christianity:

Christian: a person who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ,
Christianity: the religion that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ

Does your father believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ? If no, then he is not a Christian.

There are plenty of atheistic Jews. There are NO atheistic Muslims or Christians. There are no Muslims who don't believe in allah. A is A.

Last edited by juju33312; 08-21-2016 at 01:10 PM..
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