U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-21-2016, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I am angry about many things in Islam. The rape of children, the terrorism, the hatred, the rioting, the slavery, the horrid treatment of women, the mass rapes in Europe, the demands for shariah law in the west, the millions slaughtered in the name of Islam...I an angry because I hold justice as one of my moral values and stand against evil, which is the INITIATION of force against others.

Yes, I do judge. Everyone should judge when it is a matter of good or evil.
"One must never fail to pronounce moral judgment.

Nothing can corrupt and disintegrate a culture or a man’s character as thoroughly as does the precept of moral agnosticism, the idea that one must never pass moral judgment on others, that one must be morally tolerant of anything, that the good consists of never distinguishing good from evil.

It is obvious who profits and who loses by such a precept. It is not justice or equal treatment that you grant to men when you abstain equally from praising men’s virtues and from condemning men’s vices. When your impartial attitude declares, in effect, that neither the good nor the evil may expect anything from you—whom do you betray and whom do you encourage?"
- Ayn Rand

By not judging, you support evil.

Yes, there are Jews that do not practice ....if you had bothered to look up the definition, you would see this:

someone whose religion is Judaism, who is descended from Jewish people, or who participates in the culture surrounding Judaism

Jew | Definition of Jew by Merriam-Webster

This is not the case in Islam. It is not a matter of being descended from Muslims or just following the culture.

From the same dictionary:
Muslim: a person whose religion is Islam : a follower of Islam: an adherent of Islam

Islam: the religious faith of Muslims including belief in Allah as the sole deity and in Muhammad as his prophet

Muslims who do not follow Islam are not Muslims. Period. They do not believe in allah as the sole deity or in Muhammed as his prophet. These things are FUNDAMENTAL to being a Muslim.

As far as Christianity:

Christian: a person who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ,
Christianity: the religion that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ

Does your father believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ? If no, then he is not a Christian.

There are plenty of atheistic Jews. There are NO atheistic Muslims or Christians. There are no Muslims who don't believe in allah. A is A.
When we say a person does not follow Islam, we can only specify what we know they do not follow. There are people who do believe in Allaah(swt) and Muhammad(saws) is his messenger. Yet, drink Alcohol, do not do the obligatory prayers etc. They probably are committing grave sins that will keep them from entering heaven. But as long as they say they are Muslim, we have to accept them as being Muslim.. Islam does not require perfection. It requires them to do the best they can in accordance with the knowledge they have access to. While Merrian-Webster gives an adequate definition of what Islam and Muslim are, it does not quite agrre with what most Muslims believe they are. If you believe a Muslim has to follow every aspect of Islam to be a Muslim, then no living person is a Muslim in accordance with the definition you accept. Also very few if any Muslims are members of a Mosque. There is no membership in anything required. However it is becoming common for American Muslims to form "Islamic Societies" and have membership fees in order to build and maintain a local Mosque. But no type of membership is required for anyone to go to the Mosque for the obligatory prayers. It is not even required for one to be a Muslim.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-21-2016, 02:18 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
Reputation: 435
You made the statement:
"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "

The definition of a Muslim is one who follows Islam.

The definition of Islam is

the religious faith of Muslims including belief in Allah as the sole deity and in Muhammad as his prophet

The definition is not: does not drink. That is a non-essential. The essential of what a Muslim is : "belief in Allah as the sole deity and in Muhammad as his prophet".

There are not muslims who do not believe in Allah and do not believe in Muhammad as his prophet, which is the essence of following Islam and not something you can ignore. There are not Muslims who do not follow Islam. Not following islam makes someone a non-Muslim. ALL Muslims follow Islam. That is what a Muslim does. A is A.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-21-2016, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
You made the statement:
"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "

The definition of a Muslim is one who follows Islam.

The definition of Islam is

the religious faith of Muslims including belief in Allah as the sole deity and in Muhammad as his prophet

The definition is not: does not drink. That is a non-essential. The essential of what a Muslim is : "belief in Allah as the sole deity and in Muhammad as his prophet".

There are not muslims who do not believe in Allah and do not believe in Muhammad as his prophet, which is the essence of following Islam and not something you can ignore. There are not Muslims who do not follow Islam. Not following islam makes someone a non-Muslim. ALL Muslims follow Islam. That is what a Muslim does. A is A.
You are correct: The essential of what a Muslim is : "belief in Allah as the sole deity and in Muhammad as his prophet". But, that does not mean the person will an obediant follower of Islam. Iblis, (The Best known Satan) definetly believes in the existence of Allah(swt) and knows Muhammad(saws) is his messenger. But he is also the Biggest enemy of Allaah(swt) and Islam.

Many Muslims do believe in Allaah(swt) and Know Muhammad(saws) is his prophet and deliberately disobey by doing that which is forbidden to Muslims. To be a Muslim requires only minimal following of Islam. To fully perform Islam requires adherence to the teachings of all the Prophets.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-21-2016, 04:03 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You are correct: The essential of what a Muslim is : "belief in Allah as the sole deity and in Muhammad as his prophet". But, that does not mean the person will an obediant follower of Islam. Iblis, (The Best known Satan) definetly believes in the existence of Allah(swt) and knows Muhammad(saws) is his messenger. But he is also the Biggest enemy of Allaah(swt) and Islam.

Many Muslims do believe in Allaah(swt) and Know Muhammad(saws) is his prophet and deliberately disobey by doing that which is forbidden to Muslims. To be a Muslim requires only minimal following of Islam. To fully perform Islam requires adherence to the teachings of all the Prophets.
You made the statement:
"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "

This statement is wrong.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-21-2016, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
You made the statement:
"The point being there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. "

This statement is wrong.
I have no problem and accept that is what you believe.

If I am wrong that is my fault, not yours or anybody else. But I do believe there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. I have given the reasons I believe such. I also believe each person has the responsibility to not believe anything, unless they them self have verified it to be true.

If you or anyone else does not find verification to believe anything I say, they have an Islamic obligation to not believe it. Muslims are not to be blind followers and believe any statement, including this one, unless they personally verify the truth of it. We alone have the responsibility to verify the truth of all things.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-21-2016, 04:28 PM
 
Location: LA, CA/ In This Time and Place
5,433 posts, read 3,502,646 times
Reputation: 5063
Well many are sexually repressed, so pornography is an out let for the consumers. Also as you said some will sell it.

Plus many are not strict Muslims, just like many Christians.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-21-2016, 04:42 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I have no problem and accept that is what you believe.

If I am wrong that is my fault, not yours or anybody else. But I do believe there are Muslims that do not follow Islam. I have given the reasons I believe such. I also believe each person has the responsibility to not believe anything, unless they them self have verified it to be true.

If you or anyone else does not find verification to believe anything I say, they have an Islamic obligation to not believe it. Muslims are not to be blind followers and believe any statement, including this one, unless they personally verify the truth of it. We alone have the responsibility to verify the truth of all things.
It is objectively true. Definitions are not subjective. The purpose of a definition is to distinguish a concept from all other concepts and thus to keep its units differentiated from all other existents. Not drinking does not distinguish Muslims from anyone else. Nor does looking at, or not looking at, porn. A definition must identify the nature of the units, i.e., the essential characteristics without which the units would not be the kind of existents they are.

In the case of Muslims, and Islam, the essential characteristics are "belief in Allah as the sole deity and in Muhammad as his prophet." Without those essential characteristics, the person is not following Islam and is not a Muslim.

Your fault is your refusal to think rationally, and that you lied about what I said.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-21-2016, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
It is objectively true. Definitions are not subjective. The purpose of a definition is to distinguish a concept from all other concepts and thus to keep its units differentiated from all other existents. Not drinking does not distinguish Muslims from anyone else. Nor does looking at, or not looking at, porn. A definition must identify the nature of the units, i.e., the essential characteristics without which the units would not be the kind of existents they are.

In the case of Muslims, and Islam, the essential characteristics are "belief in Allah as the sole deity and in Muhammad as his prophet." Without those essential characteristics, the person is not following Islam and is not a Muslim.

Your fault is your refusal to think rationally, and that you lied about what I said.

That is your view and I do appreciate your views especially since they differ considerably from mine.

As a Muslim I have an obligation to constantly evaluate what I believe. Your comments have been a great incentive for me to question my beliefs and seek verification. I am deeply indebted to you for motivating me to improve my eeman and grow in faith.

Thank You for contributing much to this forum
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-23-2016, 03:58 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That is your view and I do appreciate your views especially since they differ considerably from mine.

As a Muslim I have an obligation to constantly evaluate what I believe. Your comments have been a great incentive for me to question my beliefs and seek verification. I am deeply indebted to you for motivating me to improve my eeman and grow in faith.

Thank You for contributing much to this forum
Do you think that reality is subjective and we all have equally valid 'views'? You are doing your very best to ignore reality, to turn your back on truth. Don't thank me. I've been unable to say anything to improve your metaphysics or epistemology. No amount of evidence I present makes a dent.

When I provided the DICTIONARY DEFINITION of Islam and Muslim, I got these comments from you and Kalif:

WoodrowLI, you don't get to make up your own definition, you should let the expert juju33312 to make the definition for you.
Your reply: Correct Kalif.


Snarky comments when I was certainly NOT making up the definition. The very thing I am against is people making up definitions. When I see comments like this and then I see you 'thanking me'....do you think that I think you are sincere?

sincere: 1
: having or showing honesty : straightforward <a sincere person>
2
: being what it seems to be : genuine <sincere good wishes>
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-27-2016, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Do you think that reality is subjective and we all have equally valid 'views'? You are doing your very best to ignore reality, to turn your back on truth. Don't thank me. I've been unable to say anything to improve your metaphysics or epistemology. No amount of evidence I present makes a dent.

When I provided the DICTIONARY DEFINITION of Islam and Muslim, I got these comments from you and Kalif:

WoodrowLI, you don't get to make up your own definition, you should let the expert juju33312 to make the definition for you.
Your reply: Correct Kalif.


Snarky comments when I was certainly NOT making up the definition. The very thing I am against is people making up definitions. When I see comments like this and then I see you 'thanking me'....do you think that I think you are sincere?

sincere: 1
: having or showing honesty : straightforward <a sincere person>
2
: being what it seems to be : genuine <sincere good wishes>
Reality is people are very subjective. To know what any individual believes, something is, you have to ask the Individual.,

Even dictionary definitions are subjective. Look at dictionaries from different eras or by different people. Dictionary definitions are based upon majority usage and that differs according to time and location. For example look at the etymology of the word gay

Quote:
gay (n.) Look up gay at Dictionary.com
"a (usually male) homosexual," by 1971, from gay (adj.). In Middle English it meant "excellent person, noble lady, gallant knight," also "something gay or bright; an ornament or badge" (c. 1400).
gay (adj.) Look up gay at Dictionary.com
late 14c., "full of joy, merry; light-hearted, carefree;" also "wanton, lewd, lascivious" (late 12c. as a surname, Philippus de Gay), from Old French gai "joyful, happy; pleasant, agreeably charming; forward, pert; light-colored" (12c.; compare Old Spanish gayo, Portuguese gaio, Italian gajo, probably French loan-words). Ultimate origin disputed; perhaps from Frankish *gahi (related to Old High German wahi "pretty"), though not all etymologists accept this. Meaning "stately and beautiful; splendid and showily dressed" is from early 14c. In the English of Yorkshire and Scotland formerly it could mean "moderately, rather, considerable" (1796; compare sense development in pretty (adj.)).

The word gay by the 1890s had an overall tinge of promiscuity -- a gay house was a brothel. The suggestion of immorality in the word can be traced back at least to the 1630s, if not to Chaucer:
But in oure bed he was so fressh and gay
Whan that he wolde han my bele chose.
Slang meaning "homosexual" (adj.) begins to appear in psychological writing late 1940s, evidently picked up from gay slang and not always easily distinguished from the older sense:
After discharge A.Z. lived for some time at home. He was not happy at the farm and went to a Western city where he associated with a homosexual crowd, being "gay," and wearing female clothes and makeup. He always wished others would make advances to him. ["Rorschach Research Exchange and Journal of Projective Techniques," 1947, p.240]
The association with (male) homosexuality likely got a boost from the term gay cat, used as far back as 1893 in American English for "young hobo," one who is new on the road, also one who sometimes does jobs.
"A Gay Cat," said he, "is a loafing laborer, who works maybe a week, gets his wages and vagabonds about hunting for another 'pick and shovel' job. Do you want to know where they got their monica (nickname) 'Gay Cat'? See, Kid, cats sneak about and scratch immediately after chumming with you and then get gay (fresh). That's why we call them 'Gay Cats'." [Leon Ray Livingston ("America's Most Celebrated Tramp"), "Life and Adventures of A-no. 1," 1910]
Quoting a tramp named Frenchy, who might not have known the origin. Gay cats were severely and cruelly abused by "real" tramps and bums, who considered them "an inferior order of beings who begs of and otherwise preys upon the bum -- as it were a jackal following up the king of beasts" [Prof. John J. McCook, "Tramps," in "The Public Treatment of Pauperism," 1893], but some accounts report certain older tramps would dominate a gay cat and employ him as a sort of slave. In "Sociology and Social Research" (1932-33) a paragraph on the "gay cat" phenomenon notes, "Homosexual practices are more common than rare in this group," and gey cat "homosexual boy" is attested in Noel Erskine's 1933 dictionary of "Underworld & Prison Slang" (gey is a Scottish variant of gay).

The "Dictionary of American Slang" reports that gay (adj.) was used by homosexuals, among themselves, in this sense since at least 1920. Rawson ["Wicked Words"] notes a male prostitute using gay in reference to male homosexuals (but also to female prostitutes) in London's notorious Cleveland Street Scandal of 1889. Ayto ["20th Century Words"] calls attention to the ambiguous use of the word in the 1868 song "The Gay Young Clerk in the Dry Goods Store," by U.S. female impersonator Will S. Hays, but the word evidently was not popularly felt in this sense by wider society until the 1950s at the earliest.
"Gay" (or "gai") is now widely used in French, Dutch, Danish, Japanese, Swedish, and Catalan with the same sense as the English. It is coming into use in Germany and among the English-speaking upper classes of many cosmopolitan areas in other countries. [John Boswell, "Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality," 1980]
As a teen slang word meaning "bad, inferior, undesirable," without reference to sexuality, from 2000.
Online Etymology Dictionary
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top