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Old 08-17-2016, 01:35 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Many Muslims made the following claims regarding the Purity of the Quran, here is an abstract;
The text of the Qur'an is entirely reliable. It has been as it is, unaltered, unedited, not tampered with in any way, since the time of its revelation. (M. Fethullah Gulen, Questions this Modern Age Puts to Islam, London: Truestar, 1993, p.58)

(The Qur'an) was memorised by Mohammed and then dictated to his companions, and written down by scribes, who cross-checked it during his lifetime. Not one word of its 114 chapters (suras) have ever been changed over the centuries. (Understanding Islam and the Muslims, The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils Inc. (pamphlet) Nov. 1991)

No other book in the world can match the Qur'an ... The astonishing fact about this book of ALLAH is that it has remained unchanged, even to a dot, over the last fourteen hundred years. ... No variation of text can be found in it. You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world. (Basic Principles of Islam, p. 4)

Unlike earlier scriptures the Qur'an has been preserved unchanged in its original Arabic text since the time of revelation, as God had promised within it. History witnessed the fulfillment of that promise, for the Book of God remains to date exactly as it was revealed to the Prophet and recited by him. Immediately memorized and recorded by large numbers of his companions, it was passed on in exactly the same form by thousands of Muslims generation after generation up until the present day. ... There is only one version of the Qur'an; the same revealed words continue to be read, recited and memorized in their original Arabic language by Muslims throughout the world. (Saheeh International, Clear Your Doubts About Islam: 50 Answers to Common Questions, Saudi Arabia: Dar Abul-Qasim, 2008, pp. 28-29)

The Qur'an is the only scripture which has been preserved in its exact original form, in its entire content, as it was revealed to the Prophet fourteen centuries ago, not a word added or removed. This is a historical fact beyond dispute. God Himself has assured us of its preservation (Qur'an chapter 15, verse 9). Thus, there has been only one version of the Qur'an all across the world all through the ages, right from the time of the Prophet. (Al-Ahsa Islamic Center, Before you start reading the Qur'an..., Hofus, no date, p. 4)

(T)he Qur'an is the speech from Allah, revealed in its precise meaning and wording through the angel Gabriel, transmitted by many, inimitable, unique and protected by Allah Himself against any corruption". (Ahmad Von Denffer, `Ulum Al-Qur'an, Leicester: The Islamic Foundation, 1994 (Revised edition), p. 21)

(T)he Holy Qur'an is the infallible Word of God, revealed to our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhummed Mustapha (Peace be upon him) word for word, through the agency of the Archangel Jibraeel, (known as Gabriel in English), and perfectly preserved and protected from human tampering for the past fourteen hundred years! (Ahmed Deedat, Is the Bible God's Word? ch. 3, p. 7)
In summary, Islamic leaders make the following claims about the Qur'an:
Muhammad perfectly memorized the Qur'an.
He simply dictated the Qur'an to his followers who memorised it and wrote it down with no editing. Muhammad examined and approved what was written.
There is only one version of the Qur'an.
The Qur'an is perfectly preserved.
These claims are proved by history.
The Qur'an is superior to other scriptures in its preservation, and hence in its message about God.
Islamic writers claim there is only one Qur’an, that it was memorised perfectly by Muhammad and his followers, that it has never been changed or edited but simply passed down to us today, and because of this the Qur'an is superior to the Bible and its message. However, we have now considered the evidence and found that these claims are either false or exaggerations.

We have seen that Muhammad sometimes forgot verses of the Qur’an, edited verses into their final form, allowed several versions of the Qur’an, and never made an authorised version himself. His companions made their own collections and these were different. Uthman enforced one version of the Qur’an and destroyed the other collections. Even today there are different Arabic versions of the Qur’an used around the world.

Thus the above claims cannot be true.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-17-2016 at 01:58 AM..
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Old 08-18-2016, 02:57 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Many Muslims made the following claims regarding the Purity of the Quran, here is an abstract;
The text of the Qur'an is entirely reliable. It has been as it is, unaltered, unedited, not tampered with in any way, since the time of its revelation. (M. Fethullah Gulen, Questions this Modern Age Puts to Islam, London: Truestar, 1993, p.58)

(The Qur'an) was memorised by Mohammed and then dictated to his companions, and written down by scribes, who cross-checked it during his lifetime. Not one word of its 114 chapters (suras) have ever been changed over the centuries. (Understanding Islam and the Muslims, The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils Inc. (pamphlet) Nov. 1991)

No other book in the world can match the Qur'an ... The astonishing fact about this book of ALLAH is that it has remained unchanged, even to a dot, over the last fourteen hundred years. ... No variation of text can be found in it. You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world. (Basic Principles of Islam, p. 4)

Unlike earlier scriptures the Qur'an has been preserved unchanged in its original Arabic text since the time of revelation, as God had promised within it. History witnessed the fulfillment of that promise, for the Book of God remains to date exactly as it was revealed to the Prophet and recited by him. Immediately memorized and recorded by large numbers of his companions, it was passed on in exactly the same form by thousands of Muslims generation after generation up until the present day. ... There is only one version of the Qur'an; the same revealed words continue to be read, recited and memorized in their original Arabic language by Muslims throughout the world. (Saheeh International, Clear Your Doubts About Islam: 50 Answers to Common Questions, Saudi Arabia: Dar Abul-Qasim, 2008, pp. 28-29)

The Qur'an is the only scripture which has been preserved in its exact original form, in its entire content, as it was revealed to the Prophet fourteen centuries ago, not a word added or removed. This is a historical fact beyond dispute. God Himself has assured us of its preservation (Qur'an chapter 15, verse 9). Thus, there has been only one version of the Qur'an all across the world all through the ages, right from the time of the Prophet. (Al-Ahsa Islamic Center, Before you start reading the Qur'an..., Hofus, no date, p. 4)

(T)he Qur'an is the speech from Allah, revealed in its precise meaning and wording through the angel Gabriel, transmitted by many, inimitable, unique and protected by Allah Himself against any corruption". (Ahmad Von Denffer, `Ulum Al-Qur'an, Leicester: The Islamic Foundation, 1994 (Revised edition), p. 21)

(T)he Holy Qur'an is the infallible Word of God, revealed to our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhummed Mustapha (Peace be upon him) word for word, through the agency of the Archangel Jibraeel, (known as Gabriel in English), and perfectly preserved and protected from human tampering for the past fourteen hundred years! (Ahmed Deedat, Is the Bible God's Word? ch. 3, p. 7)
In summary, Islamic leaders make the following claims about the Qur'an:
Muhammad perfectly memorized the Qur'an.
He simply dictated the Qur'an to his followers who memorised it and wrote it down with no editing. Muhammad examined and approved what was written.
There is only one version of the Qur'an.
The Qur'an is perfectly preserved.
These claims are proved by history.
The Qur'an is superior to other scriptures in its preservation, and hence in its message about God.
Islamic writers claim there is only one Qur’an, that it was memorised perfectly by Muhammad and his followers, that it has never been changed or edited but simply passed down to us today, and because of this the Qur'an is superior to the Bible and its message. However, we have now considered the evidence and found that these claims are either false or exaggerations.

We have seen that Muhammad sometimes forgot verses of the Qur’an, edited verses into their final form, allowed several versions of the Qur’an, and never made an authorised version himself. His companions made their own collections and these were different. Uthman enforced one version of the Qur’an and destroyed the other collections. Even today there are different Arabic versions of the Qur’an used around the world.

Thus the above claims cannot be true.
Uthman Qur'an copy is the only one acceptable since then and even today. The thousands of hafiz of the Qur'an in every Muslim majority country and in even other countries are of only this accepted copy. This is how the original has been preserved to this day.
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Old 08-18-2016, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Uthman Qur'an copy is the only one acceptable since then and even today. The thousands of hafiz of the Qur'an in every Muslim majority country and in even other countries are of only this accepted copy. This is how the original has been preserved to this day.
Note Uthman used force to burn all other versions of copies of the Quran during his time. This is evident that there were already different versions during Uthman's time.

The critical point is, it is thus very likely the standardized Uthman's copy is not likely to be the same as the one that was supposed revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel [if such a thing really happened which is not likely at all].

The other point is many early hafiz were killed in battles. Thus is likely some recitations within the memories of the hafiz who were killed were lost.

The various earliest manuscripts in various Museums are different.

At present there are 26 [could be more] Arabic Qurans.

Given the above, whatever you claim, you cannot get rid of the high possibility and impossibility that the present Quran is word for word & dot for dot the same as the original revealed to Muhammad [if such a thing ever exists, which is not likely]
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Old 08-20-2016, 11:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note Uthman used force to burn all other versions of copies of the Quran during his time. This is evident that there were already different versions during Uthman's time.
You are talking in ignorance of the reality. All other copies were not "different versions" but of the "One Version" but lots of them. The original Abu Bakr copy of the "One Version" was in possession of Hafsa and it was this original copy that was used (for words) to create the Uthman copy with, this time, pronunciation marks on or below letters of the words. The words were even checked with the words in the memory of hafiz at the time.

Therefore, your impression that there were "different versions" of the Qur'an existing at the time is in ignorance of the fact and reality at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The critical point is, it is thus very likely the standardized Uthman's copy is not likely to be the same as the one that was supposed revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel [if such a thing when really happened which is not likely at all].
It could not have been the case because of existing hafiz at the time who had confirmed all the verses of the Uthman copy were the original verses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The other point is many early hafiz were killed in battles. Thus is likely some recitations within the memories of the hafiz who were killed were lost.
You need to keep two points in mind when trying to imagine what "likely" happened at the time.

(1) Not all hafiz were killed when Uthman had the pronunciation marks included in the original Qur'an.

(2) Hafiz were present to confirm that all verses in the Uthman Qur'an are from the original Qur'an in their memory and that not a word was added in addition to the original.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The various earliest manuscripts in various Museums are different.
Most of them are from the original without the pronunciation marks. Others are not really manuscripts of the original Qur'an but hand-written notes of children in mosques or other people without there being any hafiz of them to confirm that they are the Qur'an manuscripts. The only sure way of knowing the orignal Qur'an is if it is confirmed word by word by thousands of hafiz in all Muslim countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
At present there are 26 [could be more] Arabic Qurans.
But no hafiz of them other than the One Qur'an. The rest, therefore, even if there are 2600, cannot be accepted as the Qurans. These are not the Qur'an scribes' hand-written manuscripts but hand-written notes of non-scribes of the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Given the above, whatever you claim, you cannot get rid of the high possibility and impossibility that the present Quran is word for word & dot for dot the same as the original revealed to Muhammad [if such a thing ever exists, which is not likely]
There is no question of possibility of any kind or impossibility of any kind but only of certainty. Muslims wouldn't care less as they will easily reject all without thousands of hafiz. Only the original has been memorized by the thousands of hafiz in every Muslim country. Therefore, there can only be certainty and not even low impossibility that the present Qur'an is word by word and letter by letter the same as the original.

By the way, what do you mean by "the present Quran" if there are 26 of them? :-)
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Old 08-20-2016, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are talking in ignorance of the reality. All other copies were not "different versions" but of the "One Version" but lots of them. The original Abu Bakr copy of the "One Version" was in possession of Hafsa and it was this original copy that was used (for words) to create the Uthman copy with, this time, pronunciation marks on or below letters of the words. The words were even checked with the words in the memory of hafiz at the time.

Therefore, your impression that there were "different versions" of the Qur'an existing at the time is in ignorance of the fact and reality at the time.
Ha..ha.. the reality is you are ignorant of reality.

I have mentioned the following;
1. Obviously there was the original intended version of the Quran [Quran-A] from Allah to Gabriel to Muhammad which was recited to various people who memorize and wrote parts in pieces of whatever materials.

2. By the time the intended Quran-A was compiled and in the hands of Hafsa, there was no certainty Hafsa version was word for word and dot for dot the same as the original Quran-A.
In this case we can only called Hafsa's copy, the Quran-B.

3. There were controversy of the Hafsa's copy where Uthman requested her to send in her copy. This proved there were various copies at that time and proved there were already different versions which were standardized by Uthman.

4. You want to think of the original Quran-A as in 1 but that is an impossibility. There is no way the original version from Allah to Muhammad can exist the same word for word and dot to dot at the time of Uthman. The available oldest manuscripts are evidence that prove different versions existed after Muhammad's death.

5. The present 26 [could be more] Arabic Qurans also proved the present Qurans are not word-for-word and dot-for-dot the same as the original version.

Quote:
The words were even checked with the words in the memory of hafiz at the time.
It could not have been the case because of existing hafiz at the time who had confirmed all the verses of the Uthman copy were the original verses.
The best evidence are what we have based on the real existence of the 26 [or more] different Arabic Qurans.

Hafiz =one who have completely memorized the Qur'an
Note there were no hafiz during Muhammad's time because there was no complete Quran then.
The complete Quran was compiled much later after Muhammad death.
Given the complexities of compiling the book and extracting it from memories, it is not possible for the compiled Quran to be word-for-word and dot-for-dot the same as the original version Quran-A from Muhammad's mouth.


Quote:
You need to keep two points in mind when trying to imagine what "likely" happened at the time.

(1) Not all hafiz were killed when Uthman had the pronunciation marks included in the original Qur'an.

(2) Hafiz were present to confirm that all verses in the Uthman Qur'an are from the original Qur'an in their memory and that not a word was added in addition to the original.
Your mentioned of 'hafiz' is already an attempted deception.
Note my point, there were no hafiz until the WHOLE Quran-B was compiled.

How sure are you those [followers] who had some parts of the Quran in their memory were not killed?
Point is you cannot be 100% certain on this.
You have also the recognized the reality of very possible omission and corruption oral transmission from one human being to another. Note the experiments of the Chinese Whisper or Telephone Games.
Therefore you carry forward any 100% certain of this premise in whatever your related conclusion.

What is certain as evidence are the 26 [or more] Arabic that are in existence and available for verification and it can be proven so obviously there are different from one another.
Therefore the present Arabic Qurans are not preserved purely, i.e. they are not word-for-word and dot-for-dot the same as the original version Quran-A from Muhammad's mouth.

Most of them are from the original without the pronunciation marks. Others are not really manuscripts of the original Qur'an but hand-written notes of children in mosques or other people without there being any hafiz of them to confirm that they are the Qur'an manuscripts. The only sure way of knowing the orignal Qur'an is if it is confirmed word by word by thousands of hafiz in all Muslim countries.

Quote:
But no hafiz of them other than the One Qur'an. The rest, therefore, even if there are 2600, cannot be accepted as the Qurans. These are not the Qur'an scribes' hand-written manuscripts but hand-written notes of non-scribes of the Qur'an.
There are no hand-written manuscripts of a 100% complete Quran of the so-called Uthman's version available for checking.
Even if there is the Uthman version, it is already not 100% word-for-word and dot-for-dot the same as the original version Quran-A from Muhammad's mouth as I have shown above.
Imagine and speculate what you like, but the most solid evidence is the existence of 26[or more] Arabic Qurans that are available for verification at present.


Quote:
There is no question of possibility of any kind or impossibility of any kind but only of certainty. Muslims wouldn't care less as they will easily reject all without thousands of hafiz. Only the original has been memorized by the thousands of hafiz in every Muslim country. Therefore, there can only be certainty and not even low impossibility that the present Qur'an is word by word and letter by letter the same as the original.
The above is a very blinded and ostrich claim without consideration of reality.
I have demonstrated above, within the given reality, there is no way your can be 100% certain the present Quran [you have on your hand and in possession of others] are word-for-word and dot-for-dot the same as the original version Quran-A from Muhammad's mouth

Quote:
By the way, what do you mean by "the present Quran" if there are 26 of them? :-)
The present Arabic Quran is the one you have in your possession and 26 other Arabic Quran in the possession of other Muslims around the world.

Here are some samples;

Warsh version: Common in Algeria, Morocco, parts of Tunisia, West Africa and Sudan


Khalaf version;


Hafs Version: Common to the Muslim world in general

It is obvious the respective Hafiz will have to recite in accordance to the respective Quran as above which is adopted by their group or sect.

Read these articles I linked above and elsewhere;
The Different Arabic Versions of the Qur'an - Are all Qur'ans the same?
The Preservation of the Qur'an and synoptic Qur'ans

My point:
I don't deny the central message of the different Arabic Qurans contain the main central message of monotheism, worshipping, etc., BUT they cannot be, as claimed by Muslims, word-for-word and dot-for-dot the same as the original version Quran-A from Muhammad's mouth.
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Old 08-21-2016, 02:50 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are talking in ignorance of the reality. All other copies were not "different versions" but of the "One Version" but lots of them. The original Abu Bakr copy of the "One Version" was in possession of Hafsa and it was this original copy that was used (for words) to create the Uthman copy with, this time, pronunciation marks on or below letters of the words. The words were even checked with the words in the memory of hafiz at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Ha..ha.. the reality is you are ignorant of reality.
What I have stated is the reality and you are ignorant of it.
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Old 08-21-2016, 02:58 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
By the way, what do you mean by "the present Quran" if there are 26 of them? :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The present Arabic Quran is the one you have in your possession and 26 other Arabic Quran in the possession of other Muslims around the world.
How do you know which Qur'an I have in my possession? And why do you call it "the present Qur'an" but not the other 26? You must have a very low confidence in not calling the other 26 present Quran.
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Old 08-21-2016, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
How do you know which Qur'an I have in my possession? And why do you call it "the present Qur'an" but not the other 26? You must have a very low confidence in not calling the other 26 present Quran.
It is likely the Arabic Quran you have in your possession is one of the 26 presently available Arabic Quran, i.e. the common Hafs version I listed above.
If you have many then they are all likely to be amongst the 26 Qurans listed.
If the Arabic Quran you have in your possession is not one of the 26, then that is GREAT news because I can add another Arabic Quran to the list and make that 27.

Why I call ALL the Arabic 26 Qurans the present Qurans is because they are the different Arabic Quran that are existing presently. I thought this is obvious.

So there are at present 26 different Arabic Qurans in existence.
Their existence contradict the claim of ALL [if not most] Muslims' the present Quran is word-for-word and dot-for-dot the same as the original unaltered version from Allah-to-Gabriel-Muhammad.

From the above proofs and justifications,
the present Quran CANNOT be word-for-word and dot-for-dot the same as the original unaltered version from Allah-to-Gabriel-Muhammad revealed within 610 to 632 AD.
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Old 08-22-2016, 01:19 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If the Arabic Quran you have in your possession is not one of the 26, then that is GREAT news because I can add another Arabic Quran to the list and make that 27.

Why I call ALL the Arabic 26 Qurans the present Qurans is because they are the different Arabic Quran that are existing presently. I thought this is obvious.
There is difference in singular and plural even if it is not obvious to you.

You did not say "the present Qurans" (plural) but "the present Quran" (singular). Which "Quran" were you referring to out of 26 or 27 as "the present Quran"?
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Old 08-23-2016, 12:14 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There is difference in singular and plural even if it is not obvious to you.

You did not say "the present Qurans" (plural) but "the present Quran" (singular). Which "Quran" were you referring to out of 26 or 27 as "the present Quran"?
I'll restate my position.
What I intended was, all the 26 different Qurans are claimed to be the present Quran to the respective interest groups.

There is no ONE present Quran existing at present.
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