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Old 08-21-2016, 01:01 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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The Quran claimed the Torah and Injil are from the same God, Allah.

But when we review and compare the SAME stories or narratives between the Bible and the Quran there are lots of differences between them.

Here are a list of differences between the SAME-theme-stories from the Bible and Quran from the supposed SAME God/Allah,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblic...nic_narratives
1 Torah narratives
1.1 Adam and Eve (آدم Adam and حواء Hawwaa)
1.2 Cain and Abel (Qābīl and Hābīl)
1.3 Noah (نوح Nūḥ)
1.4 Abraham (Ibrāhīm ابراهيم)
1.4.1 Promised a son
1.4.2 Sacrifices his son
1.5 Abraham's Journeys in the Bible and Quran
1.6 Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah (Lūṭ لوط and "The People of Lot")
1.7 Joseph (Yousuf يوسف)
1.8 Moses (Mūsā موسى)
1.9 Destruction of Korah (Qarun)
2 Later Hebrew Bible narratives
2.1 Gideon
2.2 Saul, David and Goliath (Tālūt طالوت, Dāwūd داود and جالوت Jalut)
2.3 The Queen of Sheba
2.4 Jonah (Yunus يونس) and the big fish
2.5 Haman
3 New Testament narratives
3.1 Zechariah and John (Zakariya (زكريا) and Yahya (يحيى))
3.2 Mary ("Maryam" مريم)
3.3 Jesus (Isa عيسى) (Hebrew ישוע)
4 Other figures
5 Mixed similarities
5.1 Idol calf and Samaritan
5.2 Miriam and Mary
5.3 Hannah and Hannah
The above obvious differences in the many stories pose a question as to which holy texts carry the true stories as revealed by God/Allah.

The Jews and Christians will obviously claim their holy texts are the true one revealed by God.

To justify that the Quran stories are the true account, the Quran made the accusations that the Jews and Christians has corrupted their Torah and Gospels from the one revealed by God originally.
What the Quran imply is if the Jews and Christians had not corrupted the Torah and Injil, the stories will be word-for-word, the same in all the three holy books, i.e. Torah, Gospels, and Quran.

Here is where the Quran claimed the Torah and Injil are corrupted.
Quran Claimed Present Torah, Gospels are Corrupted

The Quran has to claim the Torah and Gospels are corrupted otherwise the stories in the Quran are corrupted.

So which holy text [Torah, Injil or Quran] is corrupted in term of those same-theme stories?

Discuss?
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Old 08-21-2016, 01:33 AM
 
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The Qur'an does not claim that the Torah text is corrupted. There isn't even one verse in the Qur'an that says, "the Torah text is corrupted". The Qur'an actually confirms the Torah with the Jews at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an.

The Qur'an's claim is not that they corrupted the Torah but that they did not observe it (the Qur'an 62:6).

You have read the Qur'an 60 times. You still have to rely on copy and paste from wikipedia. It proves my point that you did not understand the Qur'an even after reading 60 times.
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Old 08-23-2016, 12:12 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The Qur'an does not claim that the Torah text is corrupted. There isn't even one verse in the Qur'an that says, "the Torah text is corrupted". The Qur'an actually confirms the Torah with the Jews at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an.

The Qur'an's claim is not that they corrupted the Torah but that they did not observe it (the Qur'an 62:6).

You have read the Qur'an 60 times. You still have to rely on copy and paste from wikipedia. It proves my point that you did not understand the Qur'an even after reading 60 times.
Note the topic OP is a discussion on
Differences between the SAME-theme-stories from the Bible and Quran from the supposed SAME God/Allah,
Are you implying there is no differences to the above?

Quote:
You have read the Qur'an 60 times. You still have to rely on copy and paste from wikipedia. It proves my point that you did not understand the Qur'an even after reading 60 times.
This is a stupid point. Copy and paste a listing of titles from WikiPedia has no relevance to an understanding of the Quran.

I am not and have never relied on wiki as an absolute authority to support my point.
But wikipedia is nevertheless is very useful like a database of information which is need to be subjected to further verification.

The listing from wiki in this case merely inform you there are differences between the SAME-theme-stories from the Bible and Quran from the supposed SAME God/Allah.

If you think such a listing is grossly wrong then at least give a brief explanation why you think so or perhaps we can go into the details of it by producing more credible supporting information.

So I ask again re the OP,
Are you implying there is no differences to the above?
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Old 08-23-2016, 01:40 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The Qur'an does not claim that the Torah text is corrupted. There isn't even one verse in the Qur'an that says, "the Torah text is corrupted". The Qur'an actually confirms the Torah with the Jews at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an.

The Qur'an's claim is not that they corrupted the Torah but that they did not observe it (the Qur'an 62:6).

You have read the Qur'an 60 times. You still have to rely on copy and paste from wikipedia. It proves my point that you did not understand the Qur'an even after reading 60 times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the topic OP is a discussion on
Differences between the SAME-theme-stories from the Bible and Quran from the supposed SAME God/Allah,
Are you implying there is no differences to the above?
Which differences are you implying here?

Are you relying on wikipedia or through your own readings of the Qur'an 60 times?

Further, are you implying differences in the language (Allah and God) or actual differences such as, say, Abraham had won 6 gold medals and Ibrahim did not win any gold medal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You have read the Qur'an 60 times. You still have to rely on copy and paste from wikipedia. It proves my point that you did not understand the Qur'an even after reading 60 times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is a stupid point. Copy and paste a listing of titles from WikiPedia has no relevance to an understanding of the Quran.
It just goes to show that you haven't learnt about these assumed differences through your own readings but you learnt them from a different source other than the Bible and the Qur'an.

It's too easy to assume that there are differences between the Bible and the qur'an but it is vital that we study, and understand, both the Bible and the Qur'an before we can even claim the differences.

I can easily claim that there are differences in the Gospels as to who carried the cross, Jesus or a passer by. But only someone who has studied the Gospels, and understood them, would be able to claim whether there are differences in the narration of the story in the Gospels.

You cannot compare stories in the Bible to the stories in the Qur'an. To begin with, language will be different, words will be different (six is not different from half a dozen) and there may not be full details in one or the other but only the necessary details in each revelation.

For example, Noah had three sons but in the Qur'an there is mention of another son of Noah who was drowned in the flood. To an ignorant person, this is difference in the story of Noah's sons (3 in the Bible and 4 in the Qur'an). But if you study the Qur'an properly, it is not a "difference". Do you know why it is not a difference?

This is how they claim contradictions (differences) even in the Qur'an itself without understanding it. This is also how you have claimed that the Qur'an claimed Torah, Gospels are corrupted without the Qur'an having actually claimed so.
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Old 08-23-2016, 02:00 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Which differences are you implying here?

Are you relying on wikipedia or through your own readings of the Qur'an 60 times?

Further, are you implying differences in the language (Allah and God) or actual differences such as, say, Abraham had won 6 gold medals and Ibrahim did not win any gold medal?


It just goes to show that you haven't learnt about these assumed differences through your own readings but you learnt them from a different source other than the Bible and the Qur'an.

It's too easy to assume that there are differences between the Bible and the qur'an but it is vital that we study, and understand, both the Bible and the Qur'an before we can even claim the differences.

I can easily claim that there are differences in the Gospels as to who carried the cross, Jesus or a passer by. But only someone who has studied the Gospels, and understood them, would be able to claim whether there are differences in the narration of the story in the Gospels.

You cannot compare stories in the Bible to the stories in the Qur'an. To begin with, language will be different, words will be different (six is not different from half a dozen) and there may not be full details in one or the other but only the necessary details in each revelation.

For example, Noah had three sons but in the Qur'an there is mention of another son of Noah who was drowned in the flood. To an ignorant person, this is difference in the story of Noah's sons (3 in the Bible and 4 in the Qur'an). But if you study the Qur'an properly, it is not a "difference". Do you know why it is not a difference?

This is how they claim contradictions (differences) even in the Qur'an itself without understanding it. This is also how you have claimed that the Qur'an claimed Torah, Gospels are corrupted without the Qur'an having actually claimed so.
Yes that is what I meant, something like,
"The Bible mentioned Abraham won 6 gold medals while the Quran reported Abraham did not win any gold medal in the same olympics of the same year"
Basically I am relying on wikipedia for its summary of the differences instead of me doing that tedious work. This is a wise move subject to further consensus.

The point is God/Allah is supposed is all-knowing and all-powerful so it is ridiculous for God to present the obvious difference between the two books.

The differences proved either;
1. an all powerful God is wrong or
2. the later authors of the Quran has plagiarized the stories from the Bible wrongly or
3. the Jews or Muslims has corrupted the stories from the original version from God.
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Old 08-27-2016, 12:13 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Yes that is what I meant, something like,
"The Bible mentioned Abraham won 6 gold medals while the Quran reported Abraham did not win any gold medal in the same olympics of the same year"
Basically I am relying on wikipedia for its summary of the differences instead of me doing that tedious work. This is a wise move subject to further consensus.
You have to know the differences yourself otherwise you would be caught in your ignorance about the differences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point is God/Allah is supposed is all-knowing and all-powerful so it is ridiculous for God to present the obvious difference between the two books.
How would you know these are actually contradictions rather than wrongly assumed differences and not contradictions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The differences proved either;
1. an all powerful God is wrong or
2. the later authors of the Quran has plagiarized the stories from the Bible wrongly or
3. the Jews or Muslims has corrupted the stories from the original version from God.
Or none of that but just ignorance of people who claimed the differences without understanding them properly.

If a story is the same, word by word, it is plagiarized from the Bible. If it is not the same word by word, it is made up by Muhammad. What should be the Qur'an like then; if should neither be the same nor different from the Bible?
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Old 01-15-2017, 05:41 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran claimed the Torah and Injil are from the same God, Allah.

But when we review and compare the SAME stories or narratives between the Bible and the Quran there are lots of differences between them.

The above obvious differences in the many stories pose a question as to which holy texts carry the true stories as revealed by God/Allah.


Here is where the Quran claimed the Torah and Injil are corrupted.
Quran Claimed Present Torah, Gospels are Corrupted

The Quran has to claim the Torah and Gospels are corrupted otherwise the stories in the Quran are corrupted.

So which holy text [Torah, Injil or Quran] is corrupted in term of those same-theme stories?

Discuss?
If you have read both Bible and Quran you have probably noted those differences.
From the muslim point of view we follow the Quran stories of course.

I give some exemple if you want :

Aaron in the Bible :

32.1 When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”

32.2 Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.”

32.3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron.

32.4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”

32.5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.”

Aaron in the Quran :

7.148 And the people of Moses made, after [his departure], from their ornaments a calf – an image having a lowing sound. Did they not see that it could neither speak to them nor guide them to a way? They took it [for worship], and they were wrongdoers.

7.150 (...) And he [Moses] threw down the tablets and seized his brother by [the hair of] his head, pulling him toward him. [Aaron] said, "O son of my mother, indeed the people oppressed me and were about to kill me, so let not the enemies rejoice over me and do not place me among the wrongdoing people."

7.152 Indeed, those who took the calf [for worship] will obtain anger from their Lord and humiliation in the life of this world, and thus do We recompense the inventors [of falsehood].

20.85 [Allah] said, “But indeed, We have tried your people after you [departed], and the Samirī has led them astray.”

20.87 They said, “We did not break our promise to you by our will, but we were made to carry burdens from the ornaments of the people [of Pharaoh], so we threw them [into the fire], and thus did the Samirī throw.

20.90 And Aaron had already told them before [the return of Moses], “O my people, you are only being tested by it, and indeed, your Lord is the Most Merciful, so follow me and obey my order.”

20.95 [Moses] said, “And what is your case, O Samirī?

20.97 [Moses] said, “Then go. And indeed, it is [decreed] for you in [this] life to say, ‘No contact.’ And indeed, you have an appointment [in the Hereafter] you will not fail to keep. And look at your ‘god’ to which you remained devoted. We will surely burn it and blow it into the sea with a blast.

In the Quran Allah said it was Samiri not Aaron.
So here there's a big difference in the story.


I put here a link concerning the Samiri : The ?Samaritan? Error In The Qur'an?


And there's other differences like :


Joseph in the Bible :

37.9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.

37.10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”


Joseph in the Quran :

12.5 [Of these stories mention] when Joseph said to his father, "O my father, indeed I have seen [in a dream] eleven stars and the sun and the moon; I saw them prostrating to me."

12.6 He said, "O my son, do not relate your vision to your brothers or they will contrive against you a plan. Indeed Satan, to man, is a manifest enemy.


[That change the story then : ]

Bible :

37.33 He recognized it and said, “It is my son’s robe! Some ferocious animal has devoured him. Joseph has surely been torn to pieces.”

37.35 All his sons and daughters came to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. “No,” he said, “I will continue to mourn until I join my son in the grave.” So his father wept for him.

45.25 So they went up out of Egypt and came to their father Jacob in the land of Canaan.

45.26 They told him, “Joseph is still alive! In fact, he is ruler of all Egypt.” Jacob was stunned; he did not believe them.

Quran :

12.18 And they brought upon his shirt false blood. [Jacob] said, "Rather, your souls have enticed you to something, so patience is most fitting. And Allah is the one sought for help against that which you describe."

12.94 And when the caravan departed [from Egypt], their father said, "Indeed, I find the smell of Joseph [and would say that he was alive] if you did not think me weakened in mind."

12.96 And when the bearer of good tidings arrived, he cast it over his face, and he [Jacob] returned [once again] seeing. He said, "Did I not tell you that I know from Allah that which you do not know?"

12.100 And he [Joseph] raised his parents upon the throne, and they bowed to him in prostration. And he said, "O my father, this is the explanation of my vision of before. My Lord has made it reality.


So in the Quran Jacob was always knowing Joseph was alive as he understood the dream he told him before, while in the Bible he didn't understand it.
Why those differences, i can't answer the question.
Who wrote the Bible, who exactly wrote those stories ?
It's not like in the Quran when people learned by heart the surahs since the beginning and we know it comes from the prophet Muhammad.
In the Bible some scribes wrote the stories but not under the direct supervision of a prophet.
And people didn't learn it by heart like we do.

We follow the Quran but when we have nothing about some specific stories some may believe it or not, it's up to each individual.
I think there was a hadith saying not to accept it (fully as the truth 100%) nor reject it.

Anyway as a whole the Bible is seen as Holy as the Quran says. Even if there's some differences as the Quran said.

28.48
But when the truth came to them from Us, they said, “Why was he [Muhammad] not given like that which was given to Moses?” Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Moses before?

28.49 Say, “Then bring a scripture from Allah which is more guiding than either of them that I may follow it, if you should be truthful.”


And you know enought the Quran i think and know what Allah (God) Said about the Scriptures.

Last edited by mensaguy; 01-15-2017 at 04:35 PM.. Reason: Don't use red text.
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Old 01-15-2017, 08:44 AM
 
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This is idle discussion based on prejudices.
None of you knows why a religion was initiated, for what purpose. Only its creator does.
Then, without knowing the base - why, for what purpose, you start arguing about things so minor that it is not worth pixels on the display.
As in this case, as you are speaking Abrahamic religions, all rivers fall into the same ocean and it tastes salty anywhere you taste it. The rivers, their sweet waters, may taste a bit different, as far as you can rely on such subjective sense as one's taste or, may indeed be a bit different as they flow through different grounds (and tasted by different peoples) - but the final result, the ocean, is same.
Instead of standing the banks of your rivers and arguing idly about which one is true (sure, Wiki will tell you, right?) - maybe you all should enjoy the glory and the might of the ocean, the ULTIMATE goal for those rivers?
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Old 01-15-2017, 09:26 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
This is idle discussion based on prejudices.
None of you knows why a religion was initiated, for what purpose. Only its creator does.
Then, without knowing the base - why, for what purpose, you start arguing about things so minor that it is not worth pixels on the display.
As in this case, as you are speaking Abrahamic religions, all rivers fall into the same ocean and it tastes salty anywhere you taste it. The rivers, their sweet waters, may taste a bit different, as far as you can rely on such subjective sense as one's taste or, may indeed be a bit different as they flow through different grounds (and tasted by different peoples) - but the final result, the ocean, is same.
Instead of standing the banks of your rivers and arguing idly about which one is true (sure, Wiki will tell you, right?) - maybe you all should enjoy the glory and the might of the ocean, the ULTIMATE goal for those rivers?
On a grand scale there are some very key theological differences, mostly between Islam and Christianity. Judaism is a much closer religion to ours in a lot of ways.

For instance, the idea that Jesus was crucified and was in some sort of unity, trinity or direct familial relationship with God... those ideas are blasphemous in Islam and they do carry a lot of heavy weight when the whole purpose of the life of a Muslim is to submit to and worship God. If we don't define God the same way then one party will be completely missing the mark.
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Old 01-15-2017, 11:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
This is idle discussion based on prejudices.
None of you knows why a religion was initiated, for what purpose. Only its creator does.
And the Creator has made it clear about its purpose from the outset. Read Al-Qur'aan 2:35.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Then, without knowing the base - why, for what purpose, you start arguing about things so minor that it is not worth pixels on the display.
It is vital that we know the purpose of our religion. It gives us some idea as to how we should live this life as the best living beings created to live on earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
As in this case, as you are speaking Abrahamic religions, all rivers fall into the same ocean and it tastes salty anywhere you taste it. The rivers, their sweet waters, may taste a bit different, as far as you can rely on such subjective sense as one's taste or, may indeed be a bit different as they flow through different grounds (and tasted by different peoples) - but the final result, the ocean, is same.
This is the point, do all rivers flow into the same ocean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Instead of standing the banks of your rivers and arguing idly about which one is true (sure, Wiki will tell you, right?) - maybe you all should enjoy the glory and the might of the ocean, the ULTIMATE goal for those rivers?
How would you view the glory of the ocean unless you follow the river properly and actually reach the ocean? Millions might follow the Colorado River and end up in a big muddy lake instead of an ocean. Others might end up even in a lake of fire. It all depends on which river you follow and who is your guide along the way.
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