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Old 09-08-2016, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
The Quran and Hadith come with Islam the same way the Torah comes with Judaism and the New Testament comes with Christianity. One does not separate one from the other. People who go off the path go so usually based on the teachings within that religion. Its not the personal interpretations, it's the teaching of a Imam of Islam and their interpretations that are the issue.

I said Christian Arabs specifically because nearly all the radicalization comes from specifically Arab countries and not Muslim countries. Thus your correlation to general Christians is incorrect.
If one could identify a specific demographic group of Muslims as being most prone for radicalization we might be on the track to find a cause. My own opinion is the majority of the Radicals are Mideastern or of Mideastern Heritage. although they make up only about 20% of the World's Muslims. I believe the cause is related to something in the Mideast.
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Old 09-08-2016, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If one could identify a specific demographic group of Muslims as being most prone for radicalization we might be on the track to find a cause. My own opinion is the majority of the Radicals are Mideastern or of Mideastern Heritage. although they make up only about 20% of the World's Muslims. I believe the cause is related to something in the Mideast.
If I were to make an assumption to where the path begins in the ME, I would point to a group of rich Muslim kids (young adults) who have too much time on their hands and are not held responsible for anything they do. They have enough cash in their wallets to payoff nearly anything including starting war games for fun. As you know I spend a lot of time in the Arabian Peninsula. Thus looking at the ways people act out of sight of the public eye and the way they act in public, I would say it all currently starts in Saudi Arabia. The money trail starts here and passes to some fringe Imam thus starting a domino effect. In the past I would've also included Iraq before Saddam was removed from power. Read the history of his sons and the atrocities they got away with. Saudi Arabian kids don't do things in public in Saudi Arabia, but when they vacation in Lebanon they do everything openly.
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Old 09-08-2016, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
If I were to make an assumption to where the path begins in the ME, I would point to a group of rich Muslim kids (young adults) who have too much time on their hands and are not held responsible for anything they do. They have enough cash in their wallets to payoff nearly anything including starting war games for fun. As you know I spend a lot of time in the Arabian Peninsula. Thus looking at the ways people act out of sight of the public eye and the way they act in public, I would say it all currently starts in Saudi Arabia. The money trail starts here and passes to some fringe Imam thus starting a domino effect. In the past I would've also included Iraq before Saddam was removed from power. Read the history of his sons and the atrocities they got away with. Saudi Arabian kids don't do things in public in Saudi Arabia, but when they vacation in Lebanon they do everything openly.
I am aware of the amount of time in the Mideast and I do know you are very familiar with the Languages and the cultures. For that reason I do give much thought to your views.

You bring up a very good point. A strong possibility worth considering.
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Old 09-09-2016, 03:18 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
The Quran and Hadith come with Islam the same way the Torah comes with Judaism and the New Testament comes with Christianity. One does not separate one from the other. People who go off the path go so usually based on the teachings within that religion. Its not the personal interpretations, it's the teaching of a Imam of Islam and their interpretations that are the issue.
Then it has to be all over in every Muslim country but it isn't. A lot of such radicalization has nothing to do with Islam but politics and culture. The root cause is not Islam but ME politics and injustice done to Palestinians. Palestinian issue in particular is the root cause. Blame on Islam is deliberate diversion from the root cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
I said Christian Arabs specifically because nearly all the radicalization comes from specifically Arab countries and not Muslim countries. Thus your correlation to general Christians is incorrect.
Islam is not only in Arab countries. Arabs Muslims are only about 20% of the Muslims in Islam.
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Old 09-09-2016, 05:08 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Then it has to be all over in every Muslim country but it isn't. A lot of such radicalization has nothing to do with Islam but politics and culture. The root cause is not Islam but ME politics and injustice done to Palestinians. Palestinian issue in particular is the root cause. Blame on Islam is deliberate diversion from the root cause.

Islam is not only in Arab countries. Arabs Muslims are only about 20% of the Muslims in Islam.
Why bring up Palestinians into this thread? Outside of the Arab league making support statements for them, not one Muslim country accepts them as being on the correct path. Out of a population of Millions, the ones that are actually are admitted radicals are in the low 1000's. Out of those low 1000's, 100's cause the trouble for the Millions (if you think otherwise, go online and you'll see that their October elections have been cancelled which has nothing to do with Israel) . Their radicals only effect Israel and Jews. Outside of Hezbollah, no other organization wants anything to do with them. If Palestinians actually had anything to do with any other radical Islamist group then those groups would be attacking Israel. Instead they are in Syria, Iraq and Yemen which have nothing to do with Israel.

As I've already stated Islam isn't only in Arab countries, but Arab countries are where all the financing stems from. Once the money stops flowing, many of those radicals leave to back where they came from.

And back to the Palestinians. Keep in mind that Arafat died a Billionaire. His wife and children live the lives of royalty. Abbas and Mashal are both multi-millionaires and also live like royalty. Where do you think all that money that lines their pockets came from?

I, and probably Woodrow, would advise you not to follow this path of reasoning for radicalization.

As-salamu alaykum
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Old 09-09-2016, 06:25 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Why bring up Palestinians into this thread? Outside of the Arab league making support statements for them, not one Muslim country accepts them as being on the correct path. Out of a population of Millions, the ones that are actually are admitted radicals are in the low 1000's. Out of those low 1000's, 100's cause the trouble for the Millions (if you think otherwise, go online and you'll see that their October elections have been cancelled which has nothing to do with Israel) . Their radicals only effect Israel and Jews. Outside of Hezbollah, no other organization wants anything to do with them. If Palestinians actually had anything to do with any other radical Islamist group then those groups would be attacking Israel. Instead they are in Syria, Iraq and Yemen which have nothing to do with Israel.

As I've already stated Islam isn't only in Arab countries, but Arab countries are where all the financing stems from. Once the money stops flowing, many of those radicals leave to back where they came from.

And back to the Palestinians. Keep in mind that Arafat died a Billionaire. His wife and children live the lives of royalty. Abbas and Mashal are both multi-millionaires and also live like royalty. Where do you think all that money that lines their pockets came from?

I, and probably Woodrow, would advise you not to follow this path of reasoning for radicalization.

As-salamu alaykum
I do agree Palestine/Israel is a different topic from radicalization of Mideastern Muslims.
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Old 09-09-2016, 08:54 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Why bring up Palestinians into this thread? Outside of the Arab league making support statements for them, not one Muslim country accepts them as being on the correct path. Out of a population of Millions, the ones that are actually are admitted radicals are in the low 1000's. Out of those low 1000's, 100's cause the trouble for the Millions (if you think otherwise, go online and you'll see that their October elections have been cancelled which has nothing to do with Israel) . Their radicals only effect Israel and Jews. Outside of Hezbollah, no other organization wants anything to do with them. If Palestinians actually had anything to do with any other radical Islamist group then those groups would be attacking Israel. Instead they are in Syria, Iraq and Yemen which have nothing to do with Israel.

As I've already stated Islam isn't only in Arab countries, but Arab countries are where all the financing stems from. Once the money stops flowing, many of those radicals leave to back where they came from.

And back to the Palestinians. Keep in mind that Arafat died a Billionaire. His wife and children live the lives of royalty. Abbas and Mashal are both multi-millionaires and also live like royalty. Where do you think all that money that lines their pockets came from?

I, and probably Woodrow, would advise you not to follow this path of reasoning for radicalization.

As-salamu alaykum
The only reason I pointed out the Palestine/Israel issue as the root cause of the Middle East problem leading to radicalization of some Middle Eastern is that the suicide bombings at a significant scale began there and the Palestine/Israel conflict is still unresolved.

I am neither an Israeli nor an Arab but ignoring the Israel/Palestine problem won't solve the problem of terrorism or radicalization. People are using this ME conflict to radicalize other young Arabs.

As for Arafat or Abbas being millionaires, it has nothing to do with rights of many other Palestinians. The reason often used in radicalization is injustice done to Palestinians plus the West's support of Israel to attack Palestinians.

The issues may be different but are linked when it comes to Middle East politics and radicalization of the young Middle Eastern guys. Islam is wrongly blamed for their radicalization.
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Old 09-09-2016, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,354 posts, read 24,094,847 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The only reason I pointed out the Palestine/Israel issue as the root cause of the Middle East problem leading to radicalization of some Middle Eastern is that the suicide bombings at a significant scale began there and the Palestine/Israel conflict is still unresolved.

I am neither an Israeli nor an Arab but ignoring the Israel/Palestine problem won't solve the problem of terrorism or radicalization. People are using this ME conflict to radicalize other young Arabs.

As for Arafat or Abbas being millionaires, it has nothing to do with rights of many other Palestinians. The reason often used in radicalization is injustice done to Palestinians plus the West's support of Israel to attack Palestinians.

The issues may be different but are linked when it comes to Middle East politics and radicalization of the young Middle Eastern guys. Islam is wrongly blamed for their radicalization.
As Woodrow can attest by all my years of posting on CD, I've never blamed Islam. I've blamed Imams who give incorrect lessons to those who for the most part cannot read with understand the Quran and Hadith. One of the tenets of Islam and Judaism is that one should be able to read it with understand so there is no loss in the translation. Every line must be read and no line should stand by itself in order to comprehend the entire context of what is written. Do you understand this?

And since you have this need to bring Palestinians into this conversation we'll cover your points. Saddam Hussein set up an account where each attempted suicide bombing paid $10,000 to the families and each completed paid $25,000 to the families. Once he was removed from power and that account was emptied the suicide attacks basically ended in 2006 (there have been around four since then). No money, basically no bombings. If there hasn't been nearly any in the past 10 years then the driving force was Greed and not Islam.

As to Arafat, Abbas and Mashal they are all rich due to the funds being donated to the Palestinian people in order for them to grow economically. Instead it is diverted away from the people. That is Greed and nothing to do with Islam. I don't want to cross into Politics in this forum, so I'll give you one word to research and read about: "Pallywood".

The issues are different and are not linked at all. There is no battle cry "Long Live Palestine" by Muslims/Arabs in the Middle East. As far as I know, not one of the waring parties in Syria, Iraq or Yemen is using Palestine as the bases for what they are doing to each other.

As-salamu alaykum
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Old 09-10-2016, 05:43 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
As Woodrow can attest by all my years of posting on CD, I've never blamed Islam. I've blamed Imams who give incorrect lessons to those who for the most part cannot read with understand the Quran and Hadith. One of the tenets of Islam and Judaism is that one should be able to read it with understand so there is no loss in the translation. Every line must be read and no line should stand by itself in order to comprehend the entire context of what is written. Do you understand this?
I not only understand that but have been saying so in this forum ever since I began to post here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
And since you have this need to bring Palestinians into this conversation we'll cover your points.
I do not "need" to bring Palestinians into this conversation but were responding to the question of OP about radicalization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Saddam Hussein set up an account where each attempted suicide bombing paid $10,000 to the families and each completed paid $25,000 to the families. Once he was removed from power and that account was emptied the suicide attacks basically ended in 2006 (there have been around four since then). No money, basically no bombings.
Regardless of whether it was Greed or Saddam, the root cause for beginning of significant suicide bombings was Israel/Palestinian conflict and Israeli occupation of the Palestinian land. That's where radicalization began and it spread from there. If imams are doing the radicalization, they all mention this conflict, Israeli occupation and injustice done to the Palestinians.

Please note that I do not intend to turn this thread into Palestine/Israel issue/topic but to just express my opinion as to the root cause of radicalization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
If there hasn't been nearly any in the past 10 years then the driving force was Greed and not Islam.
I admire your honesty that the driving force behind suicide bombing in the Middle East was not Islam.

If the suicide bombing has been reduced in Israel, it is not because the Greed is not there but because of other reasons such as better security and surveillance. The suicide bombings haven't stopped but have spread outside the Israel/Palestine conflict zone to other parts of the world. Occupation of Palestinian land, Iraq, Afghanistan as well as the tribal areas of the North West Pakistan has been the cause of suicide bombings and terrorism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
As to Arafat, Abbas and Mashal they are all rich due to the funds being donated to the Palestinian people in order for them to grow economically. Instead it is diverted away from the people. That is Greed and nothing to do with Islam. I don't want to cross into Politics in this forum, so I'll give you one word to research and read about: "Pallywood".
Pallywood is another issue. Israel/Palestine conflict and Israeli occupation is a real issue that has been the root cause of radicalization in that part of the world now well spread in the other parts of the world. Such radicalization wasn't there before before 1948.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
The issues are different and are not linked at all. There is no battle cry "Long Live Palestine" by Muslims/Arabs in the Middle East. As far as I know, not one of the waring parties in Syria, Iraq or Yemen is using Palestine as the bases for what they are doing to each other.
The root cause in such conflicts is "occupation" and the "allies of occupiers". How many suicide bombings we had before the "occupation" of Palestinian land and how many till today in the world since then? The root cause is "occupation" (politics) in each case. It's the "occupation" that is used in radicalization leading to suicide bombings and other terror attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
As-salamu alaykum
Wa alaikum assalaam
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,354 posts, read 24,094,847 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I not only understand that but have been saying so in this forum ever since I began to post here.

I do not "need" to bring Palestinians into this conversation but were responding to the question of OP about radicalization.

Regardless of whether it was Greed or Saddam, the root cause for beginning of significant suicide bombings was Israel/Palestinian conflict and Israeli occupation of the Palestinian land. That's where radicalization began and it spread from there. If imams are doing the radicalization, they all mention this conflict, Israeli occupation and injustice done to the Palestinians.

Please note that I do not intend to turn this thread into Palestine/Israel issue/topic but to just express my opinion as to the root cause of radicalization.

I admire your honesty that the driving force behind suicide bombing in the Middle East was not Islam.

If the suicide bombing has been reduced in Israel, it is not because the Greed is not there but because of other reasons such as better security and surveillance. The suicide bombings haven't stopped but have spread outside the Israel/Palestine conflict zone to other parts of the world. Occupation of Palestinian land, Iraq, Afghanistan as well as the tribal areas of the North West Pakistan has been the cause of suicide bombings and terrorism.

Pallywood is another issue. Israel/Palestine conflict and Israeli occupation is a real issue that has been the root cause of radicalization in that part of the world now well spread in the other parts of the world. Such radicalization wasn't there before before 1948.

The root cause in such conflicts is "occupation" and the "allies of occupiers". How many suicide bombings we had before the "occupation" of Palestinian land and how many till today in the world since then? The root cause is "occupation" (politics) in each case. It's the "occupation" that is used in radicalization leading to suicide bombings and other terror attacks.

Wa alaikum assalaam
Most of this is phalastini created propaganda over the decades. I actually live in the US and numerous Middle Eastern countries so I know what the reality is from the people on the ground. Most no longer believe in what is stated in the Arab media in relation to the phalistina as they can see what is real since the Arab spring and what is not. If you are not in the US and are in a country that limits your access to the internet, then its very difficult to verify information. The Sunni radicals are fighting the Shia radicals and killing each other over interpretations and unbeknown to them their leaders are becoming rich off the spoils of this fighting. Neither is pro Israel and neither really care about the Israeli/Palestinian issue as it has nothing to do with them. It's just part of a long list of things that is part of their charter, but not the basis of their charter. Palestinians are not seen as Muslims. This is well proven by the amount of times they've been thrown out of other countries decades after Israel was created. Basically radicalization occurs in people who feel their lives mean nothing and are looking for their "15 minutes of Fame" to fulfill their need for their lives to mean something.
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