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Old 10-23-2016, 01:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
Well, as I said before, I think the Bible fits the criteria stated for the challenge, that being millions and probably billions of people being able to quote parts of it.
No sir it does not. There is a difference of day and night between "quoting something from bible" and memorizing it from cover to cover in it's original language.

Lets go back to China, tell me how many Chinese have memorized the bible from cover to cover in the original language (Aramaic/Hebrew/Greek) it was revealed in?

In contrast, Quran was revealed in Arabic and I will give you folks from China who have memorized Quran from cover to cover in Arabic.

And after China, we will go to many more nations of who don't speak Arabic and I will provide you with folks from that nation who have memorized the Quran from cover to cover in Arabic and they recite it daily.

Can Bible meet this challenge? Surely not.

If I ask someone to memorize the bible from cover to cover, his first question would be, "Which one"?


Are you ready to write a book that gets memorized cover to cover by non-native speakers of the book's language?

Open challenge to you. Please give it shot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
But I find it interesting that what constitutes the "challenge" is something that is not what I would have thought it would be, or, to be honest, what I think it logically should be.
Yes, this may be above and beyond of your perception world.
Please tell us what you think the challenge should be? And we will go from there


Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
It looks an awful lot like the challenge is something that the Quran is guaranteed to have by virtue of centuries of mass religious indoctrination which of course other literary works simply could not. What if there were a "Christian Jesus Challenge", challenging that Jesus must truly be God. The challenge is that to prove he is not god, one must present an image or perceived likeness that is better known than the Jesus of statues, stain-glass windows, and other assorted Jesus depictions. That too would be a hollow, completely unfair and really kind of a bizarre challenge
No sir. This is not how it works.
"What is God"?
The answer to this question varies from religion to religion.

So before anyone takes your "Christian Jesus Challenge", the challenger and the opponent MUST agree on the definition of God.

Think about it, Why would a Hindu take your Challenge if he believes a cow, monkey and an elephant are the actual true gods?
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Old 10-23-2016, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Here
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
No sir it does not. There is a difference of day and night between "quoting something from bible" and memorizing it from cover to cover in it's original language.

Lets go back to China, tell me how many Chinese have memorized the bible from cover to cover in the original language (Aramaic/Hebrew/Greek) it was revealed in?

In contrast, Quran was revealed in Arabic and I will give you folks from China who have memorized Quran from cover to cover in Arabic.

And after China, we will go to many more nations of who don't speak Arabic and I will provide you with folks from that nation who have memorized the Quran from cover to cover in Arabic and they recite it daily.

Can Bible meet this challenge? Surely not.

If I ask someone to memorize the bible from cover to cover, his first question would be, "Which one"?


Are you ready to write a book that gets memorized cover to cover by non-native speakers of the book's language?

Open challenge to you. Please give it shot.




Yes, this may be above and beyond of your perception world.
Please tell us what you think the challenge should be? And we will go from there



No sir. This is not how it works.
"What is God"?
The answer to this question varies from religion to religion.

So before anyone takes your "Christian Jesus Challenge", the challenger and the opponent MUST agree on the definition of God.

Think about it, Why would a Hindu take your Challenge if he believes a cow, monkey and an elephant are the actual true gods?
Again, this is a "challenge" of popularity, not on virtues. It is also a "challenge" based on something already established. Another analogy: a boxer declares he is the best boxer. He is basing this proclamation on having fans all over the world. He has fans even in China. Does that make him the best boxer? My first observation is that of course the boxer can announce that he is the best: he has hand-picked the criteria for what makes him the best. My second observation is that the criteria he is using is not valid. It does not make him "the best".

There can be a "Quran Challenge" but if it's going to have any real credibility, it has to be based of its virtues, not the size or scope of its readership. Personally, I would think any contest to declare the finest holy book would be the holy book that has the highest likelihood of comforting its readers ("readers", not to be confused by its "followers") with words of solace and hope. And it would be a holy book that would preach kindness to all those who are fair and compassionate to others. The holy book could not restrict basic human rights. For example, the book could not possibly be interpreted in such a way that it could foster prejudice against gays, nor atheists, nor Muslims.
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Old 10-25-2016, 05:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
That is an interesting curiosity. I am not sure how that makes for any kind of logical "challenge". The Bible too has some curiousities. I find that I can read ancient English, for example. If the Quran were written in some language that I didn't understand and yet I could read that foreign language text, then we would have something.
LI's argument sounds very persuasive, but I have found that digging into it produces some factors that he tends to skip over. Do we know for sure that none of those Arabic dialects could understand the others? That they could all understand Quranic? That there is nothing in Abbasid court poetry that is like Quranic?

It is a bit similar to the Chinese dialects where one could hardly understand the other...Heck! It's like English where on Wurzel can't understand another - but they can all understand BBC English!

As the Victorians used to say:
"So...when we get to heaven, what language'll we speak?"
"English, I think, will do."
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Old 10-25-2016, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Here
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
LI's argument sounds very persuasive, but I have found that digging into it produces some factors that he tends to skip over. Do we know for sure that none of those Arabic dialects could understand the others? That they could all understand Quranic? That there is nothing in Abbasid court poetry that is like Quranic?

It is a bit similar to the Chinese dialects where one could hardly understand the other...Heck! It's like English where on Wurzel can't understand another - but they can all understand BBC English!

As the Victorians used to say:
"So...when we get to heaven, what language'll we speak?"
"English, I think, will do."
I would think a holy book challenge, which was supposedly about "producing another like it", would be about quality of content and really nothing else. I mean, if there were a contest to decide which religion had the best god, would the primary criteria be about the physical size of the gods, or how many languages they speak? I wouldn't think so. But the actual "challenge" as was issued is vague, which is why I asked in the first place.
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Old 10-25-2016, 08:07 PM
 
4,409 posts, read 1,639,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
Again, this is a "challenge" of popularity, not on virtues. It is also a "challenge" based on something already established. Another analogy: a boxer declares he is the best boxer. He is basing this proclamation on having fans all over the world. He has fans even in China. Does that make him the best boxer? My first observation is that of course the boxer can announce that he is the best: he has hand-picked the criteria for what makes him the best. My second observation is that the criteria he is using is not valid. It does not make him "the best".

There can be a "Quran Challenge" but if it's going to have any real credibility, it has to be based of its virtues, not the size or scope of its readership. Personally, I would think any contest to declare the finest holy book would be the holy book that has the highest likelihood of comforting its readers ("readers", not to be confused by its "followers") with words of solace and hope. And it would be a holy book that would preach kindness to all those who are fair and compassionate to others. The holy book could not restrict basic human rights. For example, the book could not possibly be interpreted in such a way that it could foster prejudice against gays, nor atheists, nor Muslims.
ohhh ... so you are looking for an opinion based morality test rather than considering the facts.

Yes, for that you need someone to decide whether virtues of Quran are the best or not?

The problem with this oracle is that virtues vary from society to society and from person to person.

Here is an an example ... Quran suggests that women should cover their breasts.

This could be a considered a good virtue in some societies but in other societies, you have nude beaches and nude colonies.

Quran forbids drinking of alcohol and refrains from gambling.

Again, in some cultures and in some societies it could be considered a good virtue, but then in other societies, gambling and drinking could be just OK as long as you are of a certain age.
In other societies, even age isn't a hindrance.

So is staying away from drinking and gambling a good virtue? To some it is. To you, it may not be. So is drinking and alcohol good or bad? You have the world divided over it.


I think it will be much more wiser to reconsider your strategy and come up with a better oracle to test Quran.
A fact based test is where no one will disagree.
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Old 10-25-2016, 08:09 PM
 
4,409 posts, read 1,639,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
I would think a holy book challenge, which was supposedly about "producing another like it", would be about quality of content and really nothing else. I mean, if there were a contest to decide which religion had the best god, would the primary criteria be about the physical size of the gods, or how many languages they speak? I wouldn't think so. But the actual "challenge" as was issued is vague, which is why I asked in the first place.
Again, opinion based test.

The quality could be good to you but not to someone else.

Talk facts, not opinions.
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Old 10-25-2016, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
LI's argument sounds very persuasive, but I have found that digging into it produces some factors that he tends to skip over. Do we know for sure that none of those Arabic dialects could understand the others? That they could all understand Quranic? That there is nothing in Abbasid court poetry that is like Quranic?

It is a bit similar to the Chinese dialects where one could hardly understand the other...Heck! It's like English where on Wurzel can't understand another - but they can all understand BBC English!

As the Victorians used to say:
"So...when we get to heaven, what language'll we speak?"
"English, I think, will do."
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
I would think a holy book challenge, which was supposedly about "producing another like it", would be about quality of content and really nothing else. I mean, if there were a contest to decide which religion had the best god, would the primary criteria be about the physical size of the gods, or how many languages they speak? I wouldn't think so. But the actual "challenge" as was issued is vague, which is why I asked in the first place.
Good points.

I think it may be best to first decide upon exactly what is the Qur’anic challenge. It is quite possible Muslims and non-Muslims view it differently. I also noticed my replies have not been very clear

A good starting point would be to look at how it is written in the Qur’an followed by how Islamic scholars view it.

From the Qur’an:

“Say: ‘If all mankind and the jinn would come together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce its like even though they exerted all and their strength in aiding one another.’” (Quran 17:88)

“Or do they say that he has invented it? Say (to them), ‘Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call (for help) on whomever you can besides God, if you are truthful.” (Quran 11:13)

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]

Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]

From the Scholars:

If I am understanding Dr. Bilal Philips correctly I am under the impression it is his opinion the challenge was specific for the Arabs of Medina:

The Quran is not only unique in the way in which it presents its subject matter, but it is also unique in that it is a miracle itself. By the term “miracle,” we mean the performance of a supernatural or extraordinary event which cannot be duplicated by humans. It has been documented that Prophet Muhammad (S), challenged the Arabs to produce a literary work of a similar caliber as the Quran, but they were unable to do so in spite of their well-known eloquence and literary powers. The challenge to reproduce the Quran was presented to the Arabs and mankind in three stages:

Allah’s Challenge in the Quran to produce work similar to it | IqraSense.com


The opinion of M S M Saifullah, cAbd ar-Rahman Robert Squires & Muhammad Ghoniem

The Qur'an in many places challenges the people to produce a surah like it. It appears that the Christian missionaries who call the challenge irrelevent or an utterly subjective criterion are pretty much unaware of how the Arabic poetry and prose compares with the Qur'an. This article is devoted to deal with one aspect of the Qur'anic challenge of produce a surah like it. What is meant by surah like it with respect to the Arabic prose and poetry?

So, the challenge, as cAbdur Rahim Green mentions, is to produce in Arabic , three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Indeed

The Qur'an is not verse, but it is rhythmic. The rhythm of some verses resemble the regularity of sajc, and both are rhymed, while some verses have a similarity to Rajaz in its vigour and rapidity. But it was recognized by Quraysh critics to belong to neither one nor the other category.[4]

It is interesting to know that all the pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry collected by Louis Cheikho falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihar.[5] Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeated accuse Prophet Muhammad(P) for being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur'an could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. The Qur'an's form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Qur'an inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it as Alqama bin cAbd al-Manaf confirmed when he addressed their leaders, the Quraysh:

What Is The Challenge Of The Qur'an With Respect To Arabic Prose & Poetry?
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Old 10-25-2016, 08:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Good points.

I think it may be best to first decide upon exactly what is the Qur’anic challenge. It is quite possible Muslims and non-Muslims view it differently. I also noticed my replies have not been very clear

A good starting point would be to look at how it is written in the Qur’an followed by how Islamic scholars view it.

From the Qur’an:

“Say: ‘If all mankind and the jinn would come together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce its like even though they exerted all and their strength in aiding one another.’” (Quran 17:88)

“Or do they say that he has invented it? Say (to them), ‘Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call (for help) on whomever you can besides God, if you are truthful.” (Quran 11:13)

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]

Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]

From the Scholars:

If I am understanding Dr. Bilal Philips correctly I am under the impression it is his opinion the challenge was specific for the Arabs of Medina:

The Quran is not only unique in the way in which it presents its subject matter, but it is also unique in that it is a miracle itself. By the term “miracle,” we mean the performance of a supernatural or extraordinary event which cannot be duplicated by humans. It has been documented that Prophet Muhammad (S), challenged the Arabs to produce a literary work of a similar caliber as the Quran, but they were unable to do so in spite of their well-known eloquence and literary powers. The challenge to reproduce the Quran was presented to the Arabs and mankind in three stages:

Allah’s Challenge in the Quran to produce work similar to it | IqraSense.com


The opinion of M S M Saifullah, cAbd ar-Rahman Robert Squires & Muhammad Ghoniem

The Qur'an in many places challenges the people to produce a surah like it. It appears that the Christian missionaries who call the challenge irrelevent or an utterly subjective criterion are pretty much unaware of how the Arabic poetry and prose compares with the Qur'an. This article is devoted to deal with one aspect of the Qur'anic challenge of produce a surah like it. What is meant by surah like it with respect to the Arabic prose and poetry?

So, the challenge, as cAbdur Rahim Green mentions, is to produce in Arabic , three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Indeed

The Qur'an is not verse, but it is rhythmic. The rhythm of some verses resemble the regularity of sajc, and both are rhymed, while some verses have a similarity to Rajaz in its vigour and rapidity. But it was recognized by Quraysh critics to belong to neither one nor the other category.[4]

It is interesting to know that all the pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry collected by Louis Cheikho falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihar.[5] Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeated accuse Prophet Muhammad(P) for being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur'an could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. The Qur'an's form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Qur'an inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it as Alqama bin cAbd al-Manaf confirmed when he addressed their leaders, the Quraysh:

What Is The Challenge Of The Qur'an With Respect To Arabic Prose & Poetry?
As I stated previously, matching Quranic linguistic miracles is a far fetched dream since the challenger in this thread is a non-speaker of Arabic language. He will fail this challenge before it even begins.

So we have to start with some other facts about Quran which do not pertain to Arabic linguistic eloquence.

The challenger can start with producing a book like Quran in the English language and see if he can make a few Chinese people in China memorize it from cover to cover and recite it daily for the rest of the lives - And this should happen spontaneously: No pre-planning should be allowed.
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Old 10-25-2016, 10:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
As I stated previously, matching Quranic linguistic miracles is a far fetched dream since the challenger in this thread is a non-speaker of Arabic language. He will fail this challenge before it even begins.

So we have to start with some other facts about Quran which do not pertain to Arabic linguistic eloquence.

The challenger can start with producing a book like Quran in the English language and see if he can make a few Chinese people in China memorize it from cover to cover and recite it daily for the rest of the lives - And this should happen spontaneously: No pre-planning should be allowed.
Well, I am not a "challenger" to the Quran. However, I take issue with any challenge that constitutes anything that is not about promoting the highest in moral, ethical, and compassionate attitudes. Also, I would think that God would be adverse to using unusual literary maneuvers to prove his authorship in lieu of actual substance. Judging the quality of literature has other problems. What constitutes the highest level of literature is very subjective. That dilemma goes back to my original post where I asked: who gets to judge this "challenge"?

Also there seemed to be something said in a comment about miracles found in the Quran with the miracles being supernatural accounts. Supernatural accounts would have to be shown to have actually happened to be truly miracles. Superman comics have supernatural accounts. Maybe it has to do with the Quran itself containing an actual miracle. I'm not sure where such a miracle exists, at least in that sense. I would think that if there were such a miracle clear and for all to see, a "challenge" would not be necessary.
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Old 10-26-2016, 12:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
Well, I am not a "challenger" to the Quran. However, I take issue with any challenge that constitutes anything that is not about promoting the highest in moral, ethical, and compassionate attitudes. Also, I would think that God would be adverse to using unusual literary maneuvers to prove his authorship in lieu of actual substance. Judging the quality of literature has other problems. What constitutes the highest level of literature is very subjective. That dilemma goes back to my original post where I asked: who gets to judge this "challenge"?

Also there seemed to be something said in a comment about miracles found in the Quran with the miracles being supernatural accounts. Supernatural accounts would have to be shown to have actually happened to be truly miracles. Superman comics have supernatural accounts. Maybe it has to do with the Quran itself containing an actual miracle. I'm not sure where such a miracle exists, at least in that sense. I would think that if there were such a miracle clear and for all to see, a "challenge" would not be necessary.
So now that you agree that judging the quality of the content is subjective, then you should move to facts.

Facts are not subjective. Facts are facts.

Know a few facts about Quran and then produce another such book.

Anyone and everyone can be your judge since they will compare facts and not opinions.
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