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Old 10-21-2016, 04:58 PM
 
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I have been in an interesting internet discussion with two Muslims. It began when I stated that I would have a difficult time believing someone who reportedly was given the "word of God" unless I saw evidence that the person was actually given the word of God rather than fabricate the whole event for public recognition. I was of course referring to Muhammad at the time. I was told that the Quran has the unmistakable word of God. I replied that if within its cover it has the unmistakable word of God, then when I or virtually anyone reads it, we would be able to see that yes, it was indeed God's word. I asked for specific passages that could be composed by God and no one else. I was subsequently told that God does not want everyone to be a Muslim. I found that response a bit confusing. I was then told of the ancient Quran Challenge. I had heard of this before. According to the "challenge", Allah wants those who disbelieved that Muhammad is an actual prophet to produce something like the Quran. My question is; How does one actually win the Quran Challenge? Who are the judges? What is the criteria? If it is about producing better literature in general, then in my opinion there have been hundreds and perhaps thousands of better literary works. If it is about producing something with higher morality, then in my opinion there are many people, some I know personally who could do better. But anyway, I would like to know how one wins the challenge.
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Old 10-21-2016, 10:53 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,944 times
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My friend
Of the qualities of God's word that it be understood by everyone

Clear
And it can be translated into all languages

And also to be consistent with the word of God the attributes of God

I submit to you the following test
You translate words ( الفرج-النكاح ) ( al-fourj- al -nokahh)

There are other words that can not be translated
And learned the words from the words of the Koran
The Arab knows their meaning but strongly deny what we say

It is our right to ask
Are these the words of a decent God

The Koran says that God Sly and plotted
Do you think that God Sly
As well as the Koran says that God forgets
Will believes in God forgets his words

And also harmful to God, one of the names of Allah in Islam
Do you believe in the harmful and avenger and terrible God

And also God is the enemy of man
Do you believe in God say about himself that he Misanthrope

So the Word of God fall through this simple screening

You can scan my own with all the thanks and appreciation
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Old 10-22-2016, 01:49 AM
 
4,413 posts, read 1,640,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
I have been in an interesting internet discussion with two Muslims. It began when I stated that I would have a difficult time believing someone who reportedly was given the "word of God" unless I saw evidence that the person was actually given the word of God rather than fabricate the whole event for public recognition. I was of course referring to Muhammad at the time. I was told that the Quran has the unmistakable word of God. I replied that if within its cover it has the unmistakable word of God, then when I or virtually anyone reads it, we would be able to see that yes, it was indeed God's word. I asked for specific passages that could be composed by God and no one else. I was subsequently told that God does not want everyone to be a Muslim. I found that response a bit confusing. I was then told of the ancient Quran Challenge. I had heard of this before. According to the "challenge", Allah wants those who disbelieved that Muhammad is an actual prophet to produce something like the Quran. My question is; How does one actually win the Quran Challenge? Who are the judges? What is the criteria? If it is about producing better literature in general, then in my opinion there have been hundreds and perhaps thousands of better literary works. If it is about producing something with higher morality, then in my opinion there are many people, some I know personally who could do better. But anyway, I would like to know how one wins the challenge.

So let me me quickly reply to the first part of your post where you said you would have believed it if you had an evidence. And the oracle of evidence you mentioned was a visual incident.

You might wanna update your knowledge first.

Faith is not based on evidence!

Think about it, is it even a "faith" anymore if it's based on evidence?

And seriously, "seeing is believing"? Is that what you think?
Before we dig deeper into this, you must agree with me that you believe in things only when you see them. And we shall continue our discussion.

I will expand more on this later but let's start with you taking the Quran challenge.

The linguistic, mathetimtucal, scientific and many other aspects of Quran are far fetched of a dream to be competed with.

Many, many many people have tried this before you. And ALL of them ended up biting the dust. So let's see if you can take the cake.

For starters you can try to produce a book where millions of people should memorize it from cover to cover in a spontaneous (not pre-planned by you or some other human) incident over 1400 years. Generations after generation, your book should be memorized cover to cover both by the native and non-native speakers of your book's language, all over the world.

Now, this shouldn't be very hard? Should it? I guess it should be.

So let's make it a little easier.
Write book that becomes the most recited book in the world. Can you do that? I think you can try. You are free to do it individually or build a team of as many experts as you want - no limit!

But the question is, while writing the OP, did you stop to think what if you failed in the challenge?
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Old 10-22-2016, 06:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
So let me me quickly reply to the first part of your post where you said you would have believed it if you had an evidence. And the oracle of evidence you mentioned was a visual incident.

You might wanna update your knowledge first.

Faith is not based on evidence!

Think about it, is it even a "faith" anymore if it's based on evidence?

And seriously, "seeing is believing"? Is that what you think?
Before we dig deeper into this, you must agree with me that you believe in things only when you see them. And we shall continue our discussion.

I will expand more on this later but let's start with you taking the Quran challenge.

The linguistic, mathetimtucal, scientific and many other aspects of Quran are far fetched of a dream to be competed with.

Many, many many people have tried this before you. And ALL of them ended up biting the dust. So let's see if you can take the cake.

For starters you can try to produce a book where millions of people should memorize it from cover to cover in a spontaneous (not pre-planned by you or some other human) incident over 1400 years. Generations after generation, your book should be memorized cover to cover both by the native and non-native speakers of your book's language, all over the world.

Now, this shouldn't be very hard? Should it? I guess it should be.

So let's make it a little easier.
Write book that becomes the most recited book in the world. Can you do that? I think you can try. You are free to do it individually or build a team of as many experts as you want - no limit!

But the question is, while writing the OP, did you stop to think what if you failed in the challenge?
First, I'd like to know where the rules of this challenge are written. Aside from that, it looks to me like the Bible, and the U.S. Constitution have succeeded in the Quran Challenge, that is, if we go by your criteria of how it is to be won. A few other contenders might come from Shakespeare and Dickens, depending on if they actually fulfill the criteria for a contestant. Your criteria is based largely on popularity and not the actual quality of the work, no different in that respect than the Bible. Like the Bible, childhood religious indoctrination pretty much guarantees the audience. As for what should happen if I fail the challenge... well, if the umpires making the decision on whether the challenge had been met are Muslim umpires, then the challenge almost assuredly cannot be met by anyone at anytime due to extreme bias. If the challenge was not met due to an honest failure in measuring up, then there would be the penalty of lost time pursuing the enterprise. But I don't think the idea is for the person to actually pursue the challenge himself. I think simply finding better literary works that win the challenge would be the actual objective. As I said, I'm not sure what the guidelines are but given your set of rules, I would say that the challenge has already been won many times.
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Old 10-22-2016, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
First, I'd like to know where the rules of this challenge are written. Aside from that, it looks to me like the Bible, and the U.S. Constitution have succeeded in the Quran Challenge, that is, if we go by your criteria of how it is to be won. A few other contenders might come from Shakespeare and Dickens, depending on if they actually fulfill the criteria for a contestant. Your criteria is based largely on popularity and not the actual quality of the work, no different in that respect than the Bible. Like the Bible, childhood religious indoctrination pretty much guarantees the audience. As for what should happen if I fail the challenge... well, if the umpires making the decision on whether the challenge had been met are Muslim umpires, then the challenge almost assuredly cannot be met by anyone at anytime due to extreme bias. If the challenge was not met due to an honest failure in measuring up, then there would be the penalty of lost time pursuing the enterprise. But I don't think the idea is for the person to actually pursue the challenge himself. I think simply finding better literary works that win the challenge would be the actual objective. As I said, I'm not sure what the guidelines are but given your set of rules, I would say that the challenge has already been won many times.
The are no rules and no judges. There is no central agency . The Challenge is a direct challenge from Allaah(swt)

But some of the things can be pointed out, such as no one has ever written an original Sentence in Qur'anic Arabic. No other book has ever been written in a non-conversational language, yet understood by many who do not speak it. This is something I personally found wondrous. No one speaks or writes in Qur'anic Arabic yet any speaker of Arabic can understand it.

It is somewhat comparable to writing a book that can be understood by every speaker of the Romance Languages (French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian) and become a Best seller (with no central publisher) and memorized by at least 25% of the readers.

The proof of being equal to the Quran will be it being read or heard by over 2 Billion people (counting non-Muslims) memorized by at least 1/4 of them.

I guess the proof of a book being equal to the Qur'an would be for it to be accepted as such by the majority of Muslims.
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Old 10-22-2016, 09:35 PM
 
4,413 posts, read 1,640,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
First, I'd like to know where the rules of this challenge are written. Aside from that, it looks to me like the Bible, and the U.S. Constitution have succeeded in the Quran Challenge, that is, if we go by your criteria of how it is to be won. A few other contenders might come from Shakespeare and Dickens, depending on if they actually fulfill the criteria for a contestant. Your criteria is based largely on popularity and not the actual quality of the work, no different in that respect than the Bible. Like the Bible, childhood religious indoctrination pretty much guarantees the audience. As for what should happen if I fail the challenge... well, if the umpires making the decision on whether the challenge had been met are Muslim umpires, then the challenge almost assuredly cannot be met by anyone at anytime due to extreme bias. If the challenge was not met due to an honest failure in measuring up, then there would be the penalty of lost time pursuing the enterprise. But I don't think the idea is for the person to actually pursue the challenge himself. I think simply finding better literary works that win the challenge would be the actual objective. As I said, I'm not sure what the guidelines are but given your set of rules, I would say that the challenge has already been won many times.
lol haha
How many people in China have memorized the U.S. Constitution and they recite it daily?

Same goes with the bible, Shakespeare's work, and Dicken's work, Harry Potter, Lord of the rings, The DaVinchi code, or WHATEVER!

Name me a few people in a few countries who have memoriezed any of these books from cover to cover and they recite it daily?

You asked about somebody being the judge? How about YOU become the judge of your own work? We will provide you with FACTS about Quran, and you write a book that achieves the same facts as achieved by Quran?
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Old 10-23-2016, 08:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
lol haha
How many people in China have memorized the U.S. Constitution and they recite it daily?

Same goes with the bible, Shakespeare's work, and Dicken's work, Harry Potter, Lord of the rings, The DaVinchi code, or WHATEVER!

Name me a few people in a few countries who have memoriezed any of these books from cover to cover and they recite it daily?

You asked about somebody being the judge? How about YOU become the judge of your own work? We will provide you with FACTS about Quran, and you write a book that achieves the same facts as achieved by Quran?
Well, as I said before, I think the Bible fits the criteria stated for the challenge, that being millions and probably billions of people being able to quote parts of it. But I find it interesting that what constitutes the "challenge" is something that is not what I would have thought it would be, or, to be honest, what I think it logically should be. It looks an awful lot like the challenge is something that the Quran is guaranteed to have by virtue of centuries of mass religious indoctrination which of course other literary works simply could not. What if there were a "Christian Jesus Challenge", challenging that Jesus must truly be God. The challenge is that to prove he is not god, one must present an image or perceived likeness that is better known than the Jesus of statues, stain-glass windows, and other assorted Jesus depictions. That too would be a hollow, completely unfair and really kind of a bizarre challenge
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Old 10-23-2016, 08:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The are no rules and no judges. There is no central agency . The Challenge is a direct challenge from Allaah(swt)

But some of the things can be pointed out, such as no one has ever written an original Sentence in Qur'anic Arabic. No other book has ever been written in a non-conversational language, yet understood by many who do not speak it. This is something I personally found wondrous. No one speaks or writes in Qur'anic Arabic yet any speaker of Arabic can understand it.

It is somewhat comparable to writing a book that can be understood by every speaker of the Romance Languages (French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian) and become a Best seller (with no central publisher) and memorized by at least 25% of the readers.

The proof of being equal to the Quran will be it being read or heard by over 2 Billion people (counting non-Muslims) memorized by at least 1/4 of them.

I guess the proof of a book being equal to the Qur'an would be for it to be accepted as such by the majority of Muslims.
Well, what you ware describing is a popularity contest. I find that kind of an odd criteria for a challenge. I don't know how that is any different in principle than a person declaring he is the "greatest man" based on the number or people send him good wishes on his birthday, or how many people would attend his funeral. It is picking something that comes from popularity, in the case of the Quran, an instilled popularity, and for all intents and purposes cannot be openly contested. In my conversation with two Muslims I mentioned in my OP, they pointed to the Quran Challenge, and though I was not sure what it actually constituted, my response to them was pretty much what I have said here; is the "challenge" going to be credible, or is it going to be a completely fixed contest?
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Old 10-23-2016, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
Well, what you ware describing is a popularity contest. I find that kind of an odd criteria for a challenge. I don't know how that is any different in principle than a person declaring he is the "greatest man" based on the number or people send him good wishes on his birthday, or how many people would attend his funeral. It is picking something that comes from popularity, in the case of the Quran, an instilled popularity, and for all intents and purposes cannot be openly contested. In my conversation with two Muslims I mentioned in my OP, they pointed to the Quran Challenge, and though I was not sure what it actually constituted, my response to them was pretty much what I have said here; is the "challenge" going to be credible, or is it going to be a completely fixed contest?
Is there or has there ever been any other book that when recited can be understood by those that do not speak the language it was written in? The Qur'anic Dialect is different than any other Arabic dialect, but it was understood by every Arabic speaker no matter what dialect they speak. There were at least 7 Arabic dialects in use on the Arabian peninsula at the time of Muhammad(saws) and the speaker of one could not understand the speaker of another. Until the revelation was given to Muhammad(saws) Qur'anic Arabic had never been heard. It has never been heard again except in the recitations of the Qur'an.
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Old 10-23-2016, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Here
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Is there or has there ever been any other book that when recited can be understood by those that do not speak the language it was written in? The Qur'anic Dialect is different than any other Arabic dialect, but it was understood by every Arabic speaker no matter what dialect they speak. There were at least 7 Arabic dialects in use on the Arabian peninsula at the time of Muhammad(saws) and the speaker of one could not understand the speaker of another. Until the revelation was given to Muhammad(saws) Qur'anic Arabic had never been heard. It has never been heard again except in the recitations of the Qur'an.
That is an interesting curiosity. I am not sure how that makes for any kind of logical "challenge". The Bible too has some curiousities. I find that I can read ancient English, for example. If the Quran were written in some language that I didn't understand and yet I could read that foreign language text, then we would have something.
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