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Old 11-30-2016, 03:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
Nevertheless, it is an ideology. It didn't exist for about a million years of humanity's existence. And now, yes, the ideology is behind the times. Its sexist and homophobic. And since religious ideologies are manmade and change with their interpretation, it is also legitimate to say it is behind the times in any event.
hmmm interesting.

the ideology of "Atheism" or "not believing in any religion/God" is equally "behind the times" as the ideology of religion. No?

Why one should follow Atheism then? Isn't it an outdated "Behind the times" ideology?

 
Old 12-01-2016, 12:43 AM
 
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Except it is not a belief or an ideology, but the lack of one. Which is not a small difference, a subtle difference, or a difference that is hard to understand. As they say "Atheism is an ideology or belief in the same way that bald is a hair style, sitting is a dance style, and being dead is a life style choice".
 
Old 12-01-2016, 04:36 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Except it is not a belief or an ideology, but the lack of one. Which is not a small difference, a subtle difference, or a difference that is hard to understand. As they say "Atheism is an ideology or belief in the same way that bald is a hair style, sitting is a dance style, and being dead is a life style choice".
Atheism is as much an ideology as not making a choice is a choice.

While there is no set defining features of Atheism and the only similarity between Atheists is they do not believe in any gods, it is not much different from Islam as an ideology as the only common similarity of all Muslims is the belief in Allaah(swt)

We all live a de'en Atheism is part of your de'en, Islam is part of my de'en.

While de'en translates into English as religion it more closely means way of life.
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Old 12-01-2016, 06:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Except it is not a belief or an ideology, but the lack of one. Which is not a small difference, a subtle difference, or a difference that is hard to understand. As they say "Atheism is an ideology or belief in the same way that bald is a hair style, sitting is a dance style, and being dead is a life style choice".
Linguistics at Merriam Webster may wanna get advantage of your expertise.

"Definition of atheist
: one who believes that there is no deity

Atheist | Definition of Atheist by Merriam-Webster

But then you would care less because you don't consider yourself an Atheist. Don't you?
 
Old 12-01-2016, 07:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Atheism is as much an ideology as not making a choice is a choice.
Except no it is not. Perhaps recourse to a simple dictionary would assist you here. One dictionary for example defines ideology as "a system of ideas and ideals". Going down the next 5 results I got from google produced nothing different from this (lest I be accused of the same wanton and blatant cherry picking the GoCardinals displays below).

Atheist is NOT a system of ideas and ideals. Atheism is the state of having been presented ONE idea, and having noticed the idea is ENTIRELY unsubstantiated and so they rejected it.

Now what you could say without looking similarly foolish is to note that the practice of demanding substantiation before subscribing to claims is a system of ideals and ideals.

But that does not make atheism a system of ideas or ideals. It makes atheism the RESULT of your system of ideas and ideals. Not a small difference, or a subtle one. You error is like mistaking a cake AS baking rather than as a result of baking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Linguistics at Merriam Webster may wanna get advantage of your expertise.
Not my expertise, but that of most atheists. Remember dictionaries do not just define words, they reflect the usage and intent of those words in society. Society defines dictionary definitions, not the other way around.

And if you go into thread after thread on religious forums, and talk to atheist after atheist, you will find them defining their atheism in pretty much the way I describe. So yes, Webster could very much do with updating their definitions in this regard.

That said however you are willfully contriving to cherry pick your definitions. If you type "define atheism" into google for example you will find the very first result is "disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.".

But I guess you skipped over the first result as it did not fit YOUR narrative. Funny that huh?

But since you LOVE skipping things lets skip the first result and go to the second. Oh wait "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities.". Guess that doesn't suit you either. Lets skip that and go to the third google result then shall we? REALLY trying to help you out here.

Ok the third one comes out with an article from "What is Atheism? | American Atheists" so really the horses mouth here.... and it says.... wait for it....

"No one asks this question enough. The reason no one asks this question a lot is because most people have preconceived ideas and notions about what an Atheist is and is not. Where these preconceived ideas come from varies, but they tend to evolve from theistic influences or other sources.

Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. "

......... and then the fourth one I get in my result list is the one YOU cited. So I guess you just skipped over what was inconvenient to you and selected the one YOU wanted to be correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
But then you would care less because you don't consider yourself an Atheist. Don't you?
I do not have to BE something in order to care about the correct usage of the term. I simply do not define myself by the term atheist. That does not mean I do no care what the word means, or how it should be applied. Perhaps YOU only care about things that directly affect or apply to you. Some of us have concerns reaching further than our own selves however.
 
Old 12-01-2016, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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When one thinks about it. Atheism is a belief. It is the belief that god does not exist. As a negative can not be proven, one resorts to belief. Which is ideology. You can not prove god does not exist, but you can believe one doesn't because you find no proof of god.

1.1 The set of beliefs characteristic of a social group or individual:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ideology
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Old 12-02-2016, 12:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
When one thinks about it. Atheism is a belief.
When one thinks about it, cake is a sausage. We can all sit around and espouse nonsense and simply declare it is because we "thought about it". The question however should not be simply what the results of what your navel gazing is..... but what the BASIS for your conclusions are. And I am simply not buying you selling something I know to be false just because you claim to have "thought about it".

As I said above, when you do not simply skip over inconvieneient definitions to find the one that suits you..... you find that the majority of definitions are lining up, and the majority of atheists are lining up, to tell you what atheism means to them, and what it does not mean.

Now you have a choice at that point. You can either sit back and let atheists tell YOU what THEY believe and think and are......... or you can sit there and presume to tell THEM what they believe and thing and are. I can not control your choice in this regard, but I CAN tell you only one of those choices is an honest one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It is the belief that god does not exist.
Except no it is not, as I described above using the majority of definitions that are produced for it and not SINGLE definitions that GoCardinals, yourself, and others like you are desperate to cherry pick.

Once again: The position of atheists and atheism is the position of having been presented with the claim there is a god, noticed that this claim comes with absolutely NO substantiation for it (least of all from YOU given you never even appear to TRY to enter that discussion to my knowledge), and have therefore simply rejected the claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
one resorts to belief. Which is ideology.
And once again you are also linguistically wrong here by acting like belief and ideology are a 1:1 match when they simply are not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You can not prove god does not exist
Nor do I have to, which anyone with even a MODICUM of knowledge of philosophy 101 will tell you. Look up the concept of "burden of proof" sometime. There are ANY NUMBER of things you can not prove do not exist. Yet you are not defined by your lack of belief in them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
1.1 The set of beliefs characteristic of a social group or individual:
And there is part of the reason you fail. It is not a "set" of beliefs. Your own cherry picked definition refutes your own self. That would be pure comedy gold if it was not so tragic intellectually. It is the mere rejection of a SINGLE claim based on the lack of not just some, but ANY substantiation for the claim. There simply is not a SHRED of argument, evidence, data or reasoning on offer.... least of all from you.... to suggest that the explanation for our universe, or our presence in it, lies in a non-human intelligent or intentional agency.
 
Old 12-02-2016, 01:20 PM
bg7
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
hmmm interesting.

the ideology of "Atheism" or "not believing in any religion/God" is equally "behind the times" as the ideology of religion. No?

Why one should follow Atheism then? Isn't it an outdated "Behind the times" ideology?
Yes, one would hope with modern honesty over prescribed ideology, everyone would finally admit - they just don't know. One way or the other. Agnosticism.


Then the whole edifice of religious ideology and atheism might not take itself quite so seriously. Especially not to the point of being a "non-negotiable truth". But we can only dream about so many of the world actually being honest rather than clutching dogma that promises them some special prize of everlasting life on one side or the delights of supposed hyper-rationality on the other side.


We are all in the same situation. We are all human so we all know that no-one else actually knows. Believe what you want, but don't make other's (eg women, homosexuals, apostates, etc) lives hell for just your beliefs. And go to the universal declaration of human rights if you want to know how to treat others (the best collective book we've come up with so far as to how to treat others, and how we each ourselves want to be treated as individuals - way ahead of the Bible and the Koran). Be very suspicious and skeptical of ideologies that offer impossible magical prizes like everlasting life and those that seductively appeal to human narcissism.


If only the honesty of agnostics and humanists would prevail. But it doesn't have the patina of 1500 or 2000 yrs of mystery, tradition and unverifiability behind it - and humans do like a good story.

Last edited by bg7; 12-02-2016 at 01:29 PM..
 
Old 12-02-2016, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
When one thinks about it, cake is a sausage. We can all sit around and espouse nonsense and simply declare it is because we "thought about it". The question however should not be simply what the results of what your navel gazing is..... but what the BASIS for your conclusions are. And I am simply not buying you selling something I know to be false just because you claim to have "thought about it".

As I said above, when you do not simply skip over inconvieneient definitions to find the one that suits you..... you find that the majority of definitions are lining up, and the majority of atheists are lining up, to tell you what atheism means to them, and what it does not mean.

Now you have a choice at that point. You can either sit back and let atheists tell YOU what THEY believe and think and are......... or you can sit there and presume to tell THEM what they believe and thing and are. I can not control your choice in this regard, but I CAN tell you only one of those choices is an honest one.



Except no it is not, as I described above using the majority of definitions that are produced for it and not SINGLE definitions that GoCardinals, yourself, and others like you are desperate to cherry pick.

Once again: The position of atheists and atheism is the position of having been presented with the claim there is a god, noticed that this claim comes with absolutely NO substantiation for it (least of all from YOU given you never even appear to TRY to enter that discussion to my knowledge), and have therefore simply rejected the claim.



And once again you are also linguistically wrong here by acting like belief and ideology are a 1:1 match when they simply are not.



Nor do I have to, which anyone with even a MODICUM of knowledge of philosophy 101 will tell you. Look up the concept of "burden of proof" sometime. There are ANY NUMBER of things you can not prove do not exist. Yet you are not defined by your lack of belief in them.



And there is part of the reason you fail. It is not a "set" of beliefs. Your own cherry picked definition refutes your own self. That would be pure comedy gold if it was not so tragic intellectually. It is the mere rejection of a SINGLE claim based on the lack of not just some, but ANY substantiation for the claim. There simply is not a SHRED of argument, evidence, data or reasoning on offer.... least of all from you.... to suggest that the explanation for our universe, or our presence in it, lies in a non-human intelligent or intentional agency.
We all are defined by our beliefs and disbeliefs. All who belief in the existence of God are defined as Theists. All who do not belief in the existence of God are defined as Atheists. Those that are uncertain are defined as Agnostic.


Atheism is just as much an ideology as Theism is. To be an Atheist is a whole set of beliefs regarding all concepts of a deity, It is not just disbelief in the Abrahamic God it is an opinion about all gods including the Pagan and non-Abrahamic gods.

Your argument could easily justify one saying Islam is not an ideology. While I and probably most Muslims believe Islam is an ideology, it does not match your definition of ideology. The bare minimum to be Muslim is the belief that Allaah(swt) exists.
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Old 12-02-2016, 05:30 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 770,022 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
Yes, one would hope with modern honesty over prescribed ideology, everyone would finally admit - they just don't know. One way or the other. Agnosticism.


Then the whole edifice of religious ideology and atheism might not take itself quite so seriously. Especially not to the point of being a "non-negotiable truth". But we can only dream about so many of the world actually being honest rather than clutching dogma that promises them some special prize of everlasting life on one side or the delights of supposed hyper-rationality on the other side.


We are all in the same situation. We are all human so we all know that no-one else actually knows. Believe what you want, but don't make other's (eg women, homosexuals, apostates, etc) lives hell for just your beliefs. And go to the universal declaration of human rights if you want to know how to treat others (the best collective book we've come up with so far as to how to treat others, and how we each ourselves want to be treated as individuals - way ahead of the Bible and the Koran). Be very suspicious and skeptical of ideologies that offer impossible magical prizes like everlasting life and those that seductively appeal to human narcissism.


If only the honesty of agnostics and humanists would prevail. But it doesn't have the patina of 1500 or 2000 yrs of mystery, tradition and unverifiability behind it - and humans do like a good story.
All irrelevant to the discussion and to the forum. The person asked if practicing homosexuality is a sin or accepted according to Islam. According to Islam it is not, end of topic.

It's anyone's choice to accept Islam or not, but if you are going to accept it, accept what comes with it. If not, be well and we would say may Allah guide them. The end.
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