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Old 12-25-2016, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Woodrow LI got it right and you are disputing in vain.
I suggest you do not blindly agree simply because Woodrow LI is another Muslim like you. Nobody is perfect and Woodrow LI admitted he overlooked some points, see,
Questions for Muslim?

Quote:
The last verse gives the reason for these stories, "thereby We may make firm thy heart". It does not say, "so that you may drive a truck into peaceful infidels" or "so that you may commit suicide with a bomb".
I had challenged this before. Did Hitler mention in his Main Kempf, all Jews must be gassed.

Quote:
Driving a truck into shoppers or exploding a bomb in a church is certainly not part of general principles anywhere in the Qur'aan.
The general principles from the Quran is; infidels, in terms of their disbelieve, being astray, and various acts that are negative to Islam are a threat to Islam as mentioned in many verses.
The Quran contains thousands of verses that has evil laden elements of contempt, enmity, 'hatred' against infidels for various reasons.
Allah demands ALL Muslims to fight whether they like it or not, this sanction imbues and enables a feeling of animosity and antagonism within certain percentage of evil prone Muslims.
As I mentioned the justifications for Muslims to fight [definitely entails killing] is very vague and NO ONE ONE EARTH can decide on whether the interpretation of the justifications are right or wrong.
Even the drawing of cartoons is interpreted as a threat and many infidels are killed based on that interpretation. Which humans on Earth can judge these killers' interpretations of the Quran?

Quote:
There isn't even one verse in the Qur'aan that tells us to wage war against those peaceful infidels and destroy them via genocide. You are making it up with words like "warred", "destroyed" and "genocide".
Note the Biblical Stories of Old where infidels who disbelieve, create mischief, spread corruptions, corrupt the original texts were warred on, totally destroyed on genocidal basis, e.g. the infidels of Noah's folk, Lot, Thamud, Salih, etc. These are precedents to show how the infidels at all times should be dealt with in general.

Muslims do not act on a single verse, but are inspired by a combination of many verses in context of the whole Quran. I will get to this soon when I have compiled them in a presentable format.

As for "genocide" I suggest you do a thorough research on the subject of 'genocide.' This can be easily done from the internet. Then compare the principles and root causes of genocides to verses in the Quran. You are likely to be blind to it. I will get back to this topic of "Islam and its Genocide potential" later. In the meantime if you have the time, I suggest you do an extensive research on the subject of "genocide" in general.

Quote:
The Qur'aan is clear as to how not to be unkind and unjust with peaceful infidels:

[60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

[60.9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of
(your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

60:8-9 in the Qur'aan are there to remind present and future Muslims how to deal with peaceful people who have not waged war on you Muslims.
When your mind is closed to verses 60:8-9, you will never get anything from the Qur'aan. Can you see destruction and genocide of peaceful infidels in these verses?
I am well aware of 60:8.
However, one concept you do not understand which works in reality is the concept of "weightage".
Weightage: the value or importance of something when compared with another thing:
The entrance test carries 40 percent weightage in the final result.
weightage Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
In the context of the whole Quran, 60:8 carry very little weightage. 60:8 is like a needle in a haystack and it is over dominated and over ruled by the thousands of verses that carry the elements of enmity, antagonism, 'hatred' violence and other evils in the Quran.


Quote:
These stories are there so that infidels learn not to wage wars on Muslims because of their religion (deen).

There is nothing in those verses about driving truck into peaceful shoppers.

Exactly the point; where the situation justifies. No war if they do not wage war on you and be peaceful when they are peaceful with you, are the necessary principles in the Qur'aan. I am surprised that you do not see these principles in the Qur'aan.

You have deliberately twisted your understanding of these stories. You should have stated, The principles imbued in the Stories of Old and recent consist of defending when there is physical aggression (war is waged) against you because of your deen. and be peaceful with them when they are peaceful with you.

You make false claim about the Qur'aan when you claim that these stories mean the Qur'aan advocates and condones aggression against infidels. You know very well the "various justifications" but would not dare quote them from the Qur'aan for obvious reason. These will not serve your stance here against the Qur'aan.

Nonsense!
60:8-9 are in no way vague unless you can't read them. A vast majority of Muslims is peaceful. It's because of teachings of the Qur'aan to be peaceful if war is not waged against us because of us being Muslims (because of our deen).
Did the people of Lot, Shyueb, Salih, Noah attacked Muslims in general?
No! they merely disbelieved, perhaps taunted and are infidels.
So there was no physical aggression by the infidels-of-old for Muslims and Allah to defend against in these cases.

Quote:
the "various justifications" but would not dare quote them from the Qur'aan for obvious reason. These will not serve your stance here against the Qur'aan.
The basic justifications is the mere existence of infidels and their beliefs are a threat to Islam. There are many other vague justifications in hundred++ of verses. I will compile them [to be ready soon] as I do not want to debate merely on one or two verses.

Quote:
Nonsense!
60:8-9 are in no way vague unless you can't read them. A vast majority of Muslims is peaceful. It's because of teachings of the Qur'aan to be peaceful if war is not waged against us because of us being Muslims (because of our deen).
It is not nonsense!

That is my point.
You and the majority may be born inherently with active good tendencies and will gravitate to [needle-in-haystack] verses like 60:8 and ignoring the many verses that exhort believers to be alert and stern to the threats from infidels.
However you cannot deny there are a percentage of Muslims who are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency [my best guess is 20%] who will naturally gravitate toward the thousands of evil laden verses in the Quran.

As I had emphasized NO ONE ONE EARTH can change the evil prone Muslims' minds on their natural interpretations of the evil laden verses and their compelling zeal to please Allah so as to avoid Hell.
Note the minority of 20% is a potential 300 million evil prone Muslims, and note merely ONE!!!! can create a tremendous amount of kills, violence evils and terrors.
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Old 12-25-2016, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I believe you got the above wrong.

In the Quran, Allah stated why the Stories of Old (Biblical and others] are told, example of many such verses,


I stand corrected. I did overlook there are stories from past scriptures in the Qur'an.

One comment I disagree with (Not to infer I agree or disagree with the others) is:

There is no way one can ever get the true stories from historical records of those age.
In addition, if the stories of battles and their events must be restricted to the time they happened, then such stories should not have been included in an immutable book that is supposed be applicable eternally.


There are 2 things that are immutable and applicable eternally:

1. When the Qur'an is recited with correct Tajweed, it is the exact words of Allaah(swt) as revealed to Muhammad(saws)

2. The Message of the Qur'an is "There is only one God and only He is to be worshiped."

Many things in the Qur'an are/were for specific people at specific times. Often as illustrations and examples so we may see the effects of their choices.
I do agree, using common sense there are certain things that are relevant during the time the Quran was revealed. But that is only related to the very obvious, e.g. the mentioned of using camels, horses, and the likes would obviously be not applicable to the present.

However there are many principles within the Biblical and other Stories of Old, the similitudes, parables which are not time based in the context of the Quran. One is the eternal threat of Satan and the infidels in general as a threat to Islam in general.
Islam is supposed to prevail and conquer over all other religions [9:33, 61:9, etc.] and if the infidels and other beliefs [80% of humans at present] are still in existence, they are by default a threat to Islam.

Quote:
There are 2 things that are immutable and applicable eternally:
Nah.. that cannot be.
The Quran is supposed to be complete, fully details, perfected by Allah.
The whole message within the Quran [except the obvious time based elements] are immutable and eternal.


Quote:
It is the responsibility of the individual of all people to verify all things. If a person is of the impression that the Qur'an permits or justifies evils and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone they need to first come to the understanding that the Qur'an condemns such action and that those who do such are misusing Islam to satisfy their own desires, not to serve Allaah(swt)
But the reality is Allah did not create ALL humans to be perfect and responsibility.
Allah created all sort of humans with different degrees of capabilities, i.e. some are very good, some ugly, bad and some are very evil. This is an undisputable fact.

Now it is also an undisputable fact there are thousands of evil laden verses in the Quran.

It is also an undisputable fact, those evil prone Muslims will naturally gravitate toward the evil laden verses in the Quran and are inspired to commit evils and violence on non-Muslims and even Muslims who are deemed to be hypocrites.

It is also undisputable fact [I believe] no one on Earth can prevent the evil prone Muslims from interpreting the evil laden verses as 'righteous' in the eyes of Allah and that they will be rewarded if they act on those supposedly 'righteous' verses.

Point is you as one of the majority may have you own personal views of the Quran, but no one can prevent the reality of evil prone Muslims [potentially 300 million] acting on evil laden verses in the Quran in their genuine and sincere belief they are doing their duty to Allah to gain access to Paradise and avoid Hell.

In this case of reality, the Quran and Islam must recognize and admit it is partly [not wholly] to be blamed for all the Islamic-based evils as a result of the inclusion of those evil laden verses which cannot be removed from the Quran till eternity.
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Old 12-26-2016, 03:32 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,559 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Fortunately I have a database to note that actually your presentation is inaccurate.
I am aware of your "database". My presentation is according to the Qur'aan and not according to your "database".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The article above is about "jihad" in the context of warfare.
The 9:33 is merely a side point to support one of the fundamental basis of jihad, i.e. world domination as propounded in the Quran [there are verses to support this].
I challenge you to quote those verses with the word "jihad" in them that is not defensive but unjustified attack from Muslims commanded in the Qur'aan. With "your database", you should be able to quote them here without any problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Taking into account of the whole Quran you are wrong on this and is misleading.
Taking into account the whole Qur'aan, I am absolutely correct and you wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The root of 'jihad' is JHD with its various sets of words with different meanings.
Within JHD there is a set of words belong to struggle, strive, endeavor, and the likes within an aggressive warfare ethos.
Here, the subject claimed is "jihad" and not "jahad". Let's stick to "jihad" first. I will give you opportunity to discuss "jahad" too, perhaps in another thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This JHD words related to the warfare ethos are of the Verb Type III. There are many type of verbs.

These words are;
Jahada - verb type III -perfect
Yujahidu - verb type III - imperfect
Jahid - verb type III - imperative
Jihad - verb type III - verbal noun
Mujahid -- verb type III -active participle
When the word "jihad" is used in relation to the evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims, it a general term that encompass the above set of Verb Type III. The general public would not engage in such detail linguistics matters.
That's why public has been misled by the politicians and media with the word "jihad". The public does not know what is meant by "jihad". Ignorant ones (about the word "jihad") are being led by the half ignorant ones.

Firstly, "Jihad" in the Qur'an is in only 4 verses. None of them are in context of evil and violence being committed by evil prone Muslims. Therefore, you are wrong to begin with on this point.

Secondly, "jihad" is not verb or verbal noun but noun. It is "jahd" (with root JHD) that is verbal noun which occurs 5 times in the Qur'aan. But "jahd" is not the topic being discussed here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are wrong to state that 'jihad' is merely a noun. It is a verbal noun.
Verbal noun = a noun formed by inflection of a verb and partly sharing its constructions, such as smoking in "smoking is forbidden."
See my above explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Of the four verses for 'jihad' (verb type III - verbal noun), the 'jihad' in 22:78 relate to general striving.
That is the correct "jihad" as used here in the Qur'aan. And it is noun. In ignorance, you have taken the "strive" ("jahidu"/جَاهِدُ), which is a verb, as "jihad" when it is the "striving" جِهَادِ that is "jihad". You are lost in English translations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The jihad in 9:24 refer to striving within an aggressive war ethos.
Wrong! You are only imagining it so.

It is still striving in Allah's way even if it means losing one's property, wealth and trade due to not making your fathers, sons and brothers your awliyāa (allies, protectors, friends, guardians etc.) Read the verse with 9:23.

[9:23-24] O you who believe! do not take your fathers and your brothers for awliyāa if they love unbelief more than belief; and whoever yatawallahum (takes them as allies, protectors, friends, guardians, confidants), these it is that are the unjust.
Say: If your fathers and your sons and your brethren and your spouses and your kinsfolk and property which you have acquired, and the slackness of trade which you fear and dwellings which you like, are dearer to you than Allah and His messenger
(guidance of the Qur'aan) and struggle ("jihad") in His way, then wait till Allah brings about His command: and Allah does not guide the transgressing people.


Allah is guiding believers here to wait rather than be aggressors or transgressors. He does not guide who are transgressors. Therefore your claim of 9:24 being ethos of aggressive war is your false charge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The 'jihad' in 25:52 and 60:1 has a greater degree of aggression against non-believers.
In addition your translation of 25:52 and 60:1 is inaccurate and insufficient, i.e.
25:52. So obey not the disbelievers [infidels], but strive [jihad] against them [infidels] herewith with a great endeavour.
You charge me for translation inaccuracy and insufficiency yet you are inaccurate and insufficient here due to your own ignorance about the word "jihad" in the verse. The verse reads:

[25.52] So do not obey the unbelievers, and strive (against) them in greater jihad with it (guidance of the Qur'aan).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the implication of 'striving against infidels' as a verbal noun has antagonistic element in that warfare on text.
This is utter nonsense of understanding on your part of this verse. The verse doesn't come even close to warfare but not obeying the kuffar and striving hard in their struggle (greater jihad) with the guidance of the Qur'aan. This ("with it") is the same as "Allah and His messenger" in 9:24. You would have known this if you had studied the Qur'aan with an open mind. Do you even understand what is the "greater jihad" ("jihādan kabīran")?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
60:1 is worst, i.e.
.
60:1. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Choose not My enemy [infidels] and your enemy [infidels] for friends*.
Do ye [Muslims] give them [infidels] friendship [] [tul'qūna ilayhim offering them] [love, bonding, bil-mawadati بِالْمَوَدَّةِ و د د ] when they [infidels] disbelieve in that [revelation Quran] truth which hath come unto you [Muslims], driving out the messenger and you [Muslims] because ye [Muslims] believe in Allah, your Lord?
If ye [Muslims] have come forth to strive [jihad] in My way and seeking My good pleasure, (show them [infidels] not friendship).
Do ye [Muslims] show friendship unto them [infidels] in secret, when I am best Aware of what ye [Muslims] hide and what ye proclaim?
And whosoever [Muslim] doeth it among you, be verily hath strayed from the right way.
Although by adding so many of your own words in [] and made a mess of it, your ignorance about what is said in the verse is quite obvious. It simply did not register in your mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the above context, friends [awliyaa] is not related to allies, guardian, protector as Muslims try to deflect so often.
It is all of them as mentioned in 9:23-24 quoted above. Stop trying to deflect from the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You have excluded the phrase "tul'qūna ilayhim bil-mawadati بِالْمَوَدَّةِ و د د " as if to hide something for whatever the reason.
Another attempt to deflect from the issue!

It means "offering them affection/love". Satisfied?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the context of offering them love/bonding "tul'qūna ilayhim bil-mawadati بِالْمَوَدَّةِ و د د " the more likely context is in term and context of general friendship and not re allies, protector, guardian, and the likes.
It is all of them mentioned in 9:23-24, their enemies even though some of them are the relatives of Muslims. Read this verse in context (60:1-3) and you will know better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In 60:1 a Muslim cannot even express "friendship" in terms of "bil-mawadati بِالْمَوَدَّةِ و د د" to non-Muslims because Allah is omniscience, i.e. all-knowing and know what is in the mind of all beings. According to 60:1 a Muslim would have strayed from the right way if he/she befriends non-Muslims, thus go to Hell.

Can you prove me wrong on my interpretation of 60:1?
You are exposing your ignorance about jihad in 60:1. It's plain ignorance to claim that the verse is against ALL non-Muslims when this verse as well as 9:23-24 and 25:52 identifies struggle (jihad) due to the Muslims' own infidel relatives had become their enemies, stretching their hands against Muslims, expelling them from their homes and even chasing them to Madina to kill them. Muslims were still offering them love and affection because they were their relatives. What were relatives doing in return? They were trying to kill Muslims (their own relatives) because they had believed in One God rather than 360 gods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here are the rest of the verses [Pickthall] with 'jihad' in its various Verb Type III groups. I don't have time to explain but one will note these verses are all used within a warfare ethos to inspire SOME evil prone Muslims against infidels;

Jahada - verb type III -perfect
2:218. Lo! Those [Muslims] who believe, and those [Muslims] who emigrate (to escape the persecution) and strive [Jahada*] in the way of Allah, these [Muslims] have hope of Allah's mercy. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

8:72. Lo! those [Muslims] who believed and left their homes [emigrated to Medina] and strove [jahada] with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah, and ….

9:88. But the messenger and those [Muslims] who believe with him strive [jahada] with their wealth and their lives [wa-anfusihim]. Such are they [Muslims] for whom are the good things. Such are they [Muslims] who are the successful. [in this world and on the day of judgment] [True Muslims]

16:110. Then lo! thy Lord for those [Muslims] who become fugitives [from Mecca] after they had been persecuted, and then fought [jāhadū; jihad] and were steadfast lo! thy Lord afterward is (for them) indeed Forgiving, Merciful
Verb Type III imperfect
5:54. ..., stern toward disbelievers [infidels], striving [yujahidu*] in the way of Allah and fearing not the blame of any blamer. [*verb III imperfect]
Verb Type III imperative
6:9. O Prophet! Strive [jāhidi] against the disbelievers [infidels] and the hypocrites, and be stern with them [infidels] . Hell will be their [infidels] home, a hapless journey's end.
None of them have "jihad" in them.

If you think it should be "jahad" then tell the ignorant ones to stop saying "jihad" and begin saying "jahad".

The verbal noun is "jahda" جَهْدَ and not "jihad" which is noun in Arabic. Noun "jihad" occurs 4 times in the Qur'aan and verbal noun "jahda" 5 times.

I hope this will teach you something about "jihad" better than any politician ever would.
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Old 12-26-2016, 04:52 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I suggest you do not blindly agree simply because Woodrow LI is another Muslim like you. Nobody is perfect and Woodrow LI admitted he overlooked some points, see,
Questions for Muslim?
He overlooked a different point than the point I agreed with him. I even explained in that post that the stories were to make firm messenger's heart and not to make him run a truck into peaceful infidels. The Qur'an is clear as to what to do about peaceful infidels. Read 60:8-9, 9:6 and 2:190 as rules of engagement with attacking infidels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I had challenged this before. Did Hitler mention in his Main Kempf, all Jews must be gassed.
And I had told you who was charged, Hitler or Mein Kempf. You would have charged Mein Kempf as you are charging the Qur'aan here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The general principles from the Quran is; infidels, in terms of their disbelieve, being astray, and various acts that are negative to Islam are a threat to Islam as mentioned in many verses.
They were threat to Muslims' existence because they had expelled them from Mecca and then waged wars against Muslims in Madina 325 miles from Mecca.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran contains thousands of verses that has evil laden elements of contempt, enmity, 'hatred' against infidels for various reasons.
That's because you are blind in one eye that would have seen what the infidels did to Muslims first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Allah demands ALL Muslims to fight whether they like it or not, this sanction imbues and enables a feeling of animosity and antagonism within certain percentage of evil prone Muslims.
Allah tells us to fight those who fight us. This is why most, like me, are not fighting because there is no infidel fighting me where I live.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I mentioned the justifications for Muslims to fight [definitely entails killing] is very vague and NO ONE ONE EARTH can decide on whether the interpretation of the justifications are right or wrong.
Nonsense!

"Fight those who fight you" is not clear to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Even the drawing of cartoons is interpreted as a threat and many infidels are killed based on that interpretation. Which humans on Earth can judge these killers' interpretations of the Quran?
You are judging the Qur'aan on actions of a few rather than what actually is stated in the Qur'aan. And then you say, "I don't blame these Muslims". Pathetic!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the Biblical Stories of Old where infidels who disbelieve, create mischief, spread corruptions, corrupt the original texts were warred on, totally destroyed on genocidal basis, e.g. the infidels of Noah's folk, Lot, Thamud, Salih, etc. These are precedents to show how the infidels at all times should be dealt with in general.
Another nonsense!

These stories are not telling us to be God and kill the infidels with floods and earthquakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Muslims do not act on a single verse, but are inspired by a combination of many verses in context of the whole Quran. I will get to this soon when I have compiled them in a presentable format.
I can guess what it would be like with your understanding of the Qur'aan. I hope to be the first one to expose flaws in your presentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Weightage: the value or importance of something when compared with another thing:
The entrance test carries 40 percent weightage in the final result.
weightage Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
We are not talking here about dictionaries or maths but the Qur'aan. There is more weight in "La ilaha illa-llah" than thousands of words in a dictionary. But you won't understand that as Allah does not exist in your understanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the context of the whole Quran, 60:8 carry very little weightage. 60:8 is like a needle in a haystack and it is over dominated and over ruled by the thousands of verses that carry the elements of enmity, antagonism, 'hatred' violence and other evils in the Quran.
Utter nonsense!

Every verse that deals with infidels is subject to 60:8-9. And I know why you would like to ignore these two verses. It is these two verses that will rubbish your "jihad" against the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Did the people of Lot, Shyueb, Salih, Noah attacked Muslims in general?
Did Noah, Lot, Shyueb and Salih attack their people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
No! they merely disbelieved, perhaps taunted and are infidels.
So there was no physical aggression by the infidels-of-old for Muslims and Allah to defend against in these cases.
Did Muslims kill them or they died in a flood and earthquake?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The basic justifications is the mere existence of infidels and their beliefs are a threat to Islam.
That is crap. That's why you want to ignore 60:8-9.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are many other vague justifications in hundred++ of verses. I will compile them [to be ready soon] as I do not want to debate merely on one or two verses.
I am sure you will ignore the context of many verses and ignore others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You and the majority may be born inherently with active good tendencies and will gravitate to [needle-in-haystack] verses like 60:8 and ignoring the many verses that exhort believers to be alert and stern to the threats from infidels.
I am ignoring nothing. You are ignoring two big planks of verses due to your blindness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
However you cannot deny there are a percentage of Muslims who are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency [my best guess is 20%] who will naturally gravitate toward the thousands of evil laden verses in the Quran.
There would be "most" and not 20% if there had been thousands of evil laden verses in the Qur'aan. "Most" see them as justice laden verses in the Qur'aan. Most are the real adherents of the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had emphasized NO ONE ONE EARTH can change the evil prone Muslims' minds on their natural interpretations of the evil laden verses and their compelling zeal to please Allah so as to avoid Hell.
Not unless people like you are around not blaming them for their evil acts. Your whole project will be aiming to give credit to these criminals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the minority of 20% is a potential 300 million evil prone Muslims, and note merely ONE!!!! can create a tremendous amount of kills, violence evils and terrors.
Don't attack Muslims and none will attack you because Muslims are told through the Qur'aan to fight only those who fight you. It is the Qur'aan itself that will refute any wrong conclusion you draw in your project.
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Old 12-26-2016, 03:23 PM
 
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Why do not you give us a definition of infidels
Because the distinction between the infidel and believer is important in understanding the Koran
OK
For what the Quran says he wrote to you fighting
Why is this commandment
Is it a temporary commandment
And secondly you discuss in a speech Mujahid labored
And provide false and erroneous interpretations

The Muslim scholars say that jihad is the four stages
You know that the prohibition on alcohol was in stages
This is the style of the Koran
The verses of the Koran talking on Jihad
It provided you four stages
But you are trying to mislead

The ones know the truth
I hope that does not evade this question
And tell me that I do not speak English

Repeat the question
Do you think that Islam does not believe in the duty of jihad
Wait obvious answer
And away from the twisting and turning
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Old 12-26-2016, 06:31 PM
 
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http://dawaalhaq.com/post/60144Punishment magician
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Old 12-26-2016, 06:33 PM
 
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See how people are watching the scene of slaughter
The joy in their faces
Because they apply the law of God in the jihad
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Old 12-26-2016, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
That poor boy just behind the executioner is going to be scarred for life. Just because someone dared to question Islam.
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Old 12-26-2016, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I am aware of your "database". My presentation is according to the Qur'aan and not according to your "database".

I challenge you to quote those verses with the word "jihad" in them that is not defensive but unjustified attack from Muslims commanded in the Qur'aan. With "your database", you should be able to quote them here without any problem.

Taking into account the whole Qur'aan, I am absolutely correct and you wrong.

Here, the subject claimed is "jihad" and not "jahad". Let's stick to "jihad" first. I will give you opportunity to discuss "jahad" too, perhaps in another thread.

That's why public has been misled by the politicians and media with the word "jihad". The public does not know what is meant by "jihad". Ignorant ones (about the word "jihad") are being led by the half ignorant ones.

Firstly, "Jihad" in the Qur'an is in only 4 verses. None of them are in context of evil and violence being committed by evil prone Muslims. Therefore, you are wrong to begin with on this point.

Secondly, "jihad" is not verb or verbal noun but noun. It is "jahd" (with root JHD) that is verbal noun which occurs 5 times in the Qur'aan. But "jahd" is not the topic being discussed here.

See my above explanation.

That is the correct "jihad" as used here in the Qur'aan. And it is noun. In ignorance, you have taken the "strive" ("jahidu"/جَاهِدُ), which is a verb, as "jihad" when it is the "striving" جِهَادِ that is "jihad". You are lost in English translations.

Wrong! You are only imagining it so.

It is still striving in Allah's way even if it means losing one's property, wealth and trade due to not making your fathers, sons and brothers your awliyāa (allies, protectors, friends, guardians etc.) Read the verse with 9:23.

[9:23-24] O you who believe! do not take your fathers and your brothers for awliyāa if they love unbelief more than belief; and whoever yatawallahum (takes them as allies, protectors, friends, guardians, confidants), these it is that are the unjust.
Say: If your fathers and your sons and your brethren and your spouses and your kinsfolk and property which you have acquired, and the slackness of trade which you fear and dwellings which you like, are dearer to you than Allah and His messenger
(guidance of the Qur'aan) and struggle ("jihad") in His way, then wait till Allah brings about His command: and Allah does not guide the transgressing people.


Allah is guiding believers here to wait rather than be aggressors or transgressors. He does not guide who are transgressors. Therefore your claim of 9:24 being ethos of aggressive war is your false charge.

You charge me for translation inaccuracy and insufficiency yet you are inaccurate and insufficient here due to your own ignorance about the word "jihad" in the verse. The verse reads:

[25.52] So do not obey the unbelievers, and strive (against) them in greater jihad with it (guidance of the Qur'aan).

This is utter nonsense of understanding on your part of this verse. The verse doesn't come even close to warfare but not obeying the kuffar and striving hard in their struggle (greater jihad) with the guidance of the Qur'aan. This ("with it") is the same as "Allah and His messenger" in 9:24. You would have known this if you had studied the Qur'aan with an open mind. Do you even understand what is the "greater jihad" ("jihādan kabīran")?

Although by adding so many of your own words in [] and made a mess of it, your ignorance about what is said in the verse is quite obvious. It simply did not register in your mind.

It is all of them as mentioned in 9:23-24 quoted above. Stop trying to deflect from the issue.

Another attempt to deflect from the issue!

It means "offering them affection/love". Satisfied?

It is all of them mentioned in 9:23-24, their enemies even though some of them are the relatives of Muslims. Read this verse in context (60:1-3) and you will know better.

You are exposing your ignorance about jihad in 60:1. It's plain ignorance to claim that the verse is against ALL non-Muslims when this verse as well as 9:23-24 and 25:52 identifies struggle (jihad) due to the Muslims' own infidel relatives had become their enemies, stretching their hands against Muslims, expelling them from their homes and even chasing them to Madina to kill them. Muslims were still offering them love and affection because they were their relatives. What were relatives doing in return? They were trying to kill Muslims (their own relatives) because they had believed in One God rather than 360 gods.

None of them have "jihad" in them.

If you think it should be "jahad" then tell the ignorant ones to stop saying "jihad" and begin saying "jahad".

The verbal noun is "jahda" جَهْدَ and not "jihad" which is noun in Arabic. Noun "jihad" occurs 4 times in the Qur'aan and verbal noun "jahda" 5 times.

I hope this will teach you something about "jihad" better than any politician ever would.
I am willing to learn if it is objective, valid, justified and sound.
However the critical views you have presented is not solid enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
Secondly, "jihad" is not verb or verbal noun but noun.
I am busy so I will just emphasize on this critical premise to show your views are not fully accurate.
Taking into account the whole context of the Quran, the term 'jihad' in this case is a verbal noun.

I don't claim to be linguistics expert and what I have presented is cross-checked with people who are supposed to be in the know and with sufficient consensus.
If you google "jihad verbal noun" you will get 33,000 hits of which many are from books.
Example;
The terms jihad and mujahada are both verbal nouns (i.e. an abstract noun that embodies the idea of the verb) of the Arabic verb ja‐hada, to struggle. Link
Are you saying they are wrong.
What proofs have you got to arrive at your conclusion.

You may have obtained your views from another source.
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary)
Question is, how sure your source is right?
The people at the above sites are IT people and not linguistic experts. Note Kais Dukes the owner of the site.

Quote:
Kais Dukes is a computer scientist and software developer known for the development of the Quranic Arabic Corpus and JQuranTree.[1] A .NET Framework enthusiast, Dukes began work in the early 2000s on one of the world's largest financial software systems using the framework.[2][3]
Dukes was born to an English father who converted to Islam and an Arabic mother, and grew up bilingual.[4]
If you rely on the site from
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary)
their credibility is not that strong.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-26-2016 at 11:15 PM..
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Old 12-26-2016, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
25:52. So obey not the disbelievers [infidels], but strive [jihad] against them [infidels] herewith with a great endeavour.
You charge me for translation inaccuracy and insufficiency yet you are inaccurate and insufficient here due to your own ignorance about the word "jihad" in the verse. The verse reads:

[25.52] So do not obey the unbelievers, and strive (against) them in greater jihad with it (guidance of the Qur'aan).
Note your original translation was

Quote:
(25:52) So do not obey the disbelievers, and strive against them with the Qur'an a great jihad.
Link
Note 25:52
فَلَا تُطِعِ الْكَافِرِينَ وَجَاهِدْهُم بِهِ جِهَادًا كَبِيرًا
Fala tutiAAi alkafireena wajahidhum bihi jihadan kabeeran
So (do) not obey the disbelievers and strive (against) them with it, a striving great.
There is no mention of "Qu'ran" therein.
"Kabeeran" could mean more forceful [more "evilish"] especially when infidels are already dehumanized in 25:44 as "cattle" and condemned with contempt and enmity all over the Quran.
In addition the overall context of chapter 9 is in a warfare context.

Quote:
60:1 is worst, i.e.
60:1. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Choose not My enemy [infidels] and your enemy [infidels] for friends*.
Do ye [Muslims] give them [infidels] friendship [] [tul'qūna ilayhim offering them] [love, bonding, bil-mawadati بِالْمَوَدَّةِ و د د ] when they [infidels] disbelieve in that [revelation Quran] truth which hath come unto you [Muslims], driving out the messenger and you [Muslims] because ye [Muslims] believe in Allah, your Lord?
If ye [Muslims] have come forth to strive [jihad] in My way and seeking My good pleasure, (show them [infidels] not friendship).
Do ye [Muslims] show friendship unto them [infidels] in secret, when I am best Aware of what ye [Muslims] hide and what ye proclaim?
And whosoever [Muslim] doeth it among you, be verily hath strayed from the right way.
Quote:
Although by adding so many of your own words in [] and made a mess of it, your ignorance about what is said in the verse is quite obvious. It simply did not register in your mind.
I have to add note in [] because it is messy in the first place.
If you deliberate carefully in my presentations and the notes, you will get to the message I wanted to convey.

Quote:
You are exposing your ignorance about jihad in 60:1. It's plain ignorance to claim that the verse is against ALL non-Muslims when this verse as well as 9:23-24 and 25:52 identifies struggle (jihad) due to the Muslims' own infidel relatives had become their enemies, stretching their hands against Muslims, expelling them from their homes and even chasing them to Madina to kill them. Muslims were still offering them love and affection because they were their relatives. What were relatives doing in return? They were trying to kill Muslims (their own relatives) because they had believed in One God rather than 360 gods.
As I had argued, the stories in the Quran are to convey the relevant principles.
Note the details of the background story as you claim for 60:1 is not stated in the Quran.
When you resort to historical records especially those from more than 1000 years ago, the truth credibility is very diluted.
You, as a moderate good Muslim may veer towards to the good elements, but you are not in a position at all to judge and prevent the evil prone Muslims to interpret more directly based on the principles from the Quran.
In the context of the whole Quran, 60:1 convey the principle that Muslims are not to befriend infidels [who jihad to idols are to be condemned with contempt]. If Muslims befriend infidels even in secret, Allah, all knowing will know it and they will be sent to Hell.
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