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Old 02-11-2017, 08:27 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
For hours now (just today .. I have done this before and gotten about nowhere) I have been trying really hard to read the posts in this forum and particularly in this thread and my brain is spinning trying to figure out if are any basic answers to basic questions that non-Muslims might need to understand Islam buried deep in all your arguments and rhetoric. I can't even figure that out and I have always been a fairly bright person so I am told. Trying to fully understand many of these posts is like doing brain twisters on steroids I think.


What is obvious to me is that there is such a disagreement between muslims on almost every issue that it is no wonder that non-muslims cannot and probably should not come to the conclusion that it is completely safe to trust ANY muslim about anything. If you can't even agree on and understand even the basic tenets of your faith (that could affect the rest of us very negatively - the concepts of abrogation, jihad, taquiyya chief among them) then how can we?


A lot of us would like to give the benefit of the doubt to fellow human beings who say they are muslims and believe in Islam (which is your right) but when something happens that is devastating from our perspective that involves those who purport to be muslim, and it is said to be 'done in the name of Allah' and Islam, and there is the sound of crickets coming from the rest of the muslim population for the most part, how are we to feel comfortable?


Christianity is not perfect by any means and there are loads of divisions within it but it is generally, even with all its sects and differences, pretty explainable and simple, and non-violent ... and most sects also go by the 10 commandments which are easy to understand. It also truly complicates so much for us westerners that we don't natively speak Arabic and that even the translations are confusing because their meanings are often obscure or complex or depend on a million other verses we have never heard.


Islam, from where I sit, has a major problem. The noisemakers who believe in violence are winning in the media if not in your hearts. Those so-called extremists are often, it seems, the ones who have actually read and understand the Qur'aan (or however you want to spell it) and take it very literally. From this side of the street that looks to me to make them the 'good muslims' - as in they adhere to and follow their faith quite carefully and fully. This is often why I worry a lot because those who suddenly begin studying the doctrines of your faith are often the ones it seems we need to watch out for. It is said that is the first requirement made of recruits to terrorist groups.


And overseas (perhaps here too - would not surprise me) they are now teaching that to children as young as 3 and 4, and making them memorize the whole Qur'aan, to make warriors for Islam out of them. And I am sure they then go on to the other books/hadiths, etc. that make up the full set of things that muslims supposedly follow/believe in. Somewhere in there, hatred and violence are being taught. The majority of muslims (if they truly are peace loving) need to do something about that .. you need to present a united front that is very clear to the rest of the world or you may be forever misunderstood. Perhaps that is all it is - misunderstandings - that are causing these major issues right now. It is in everyone's interests to try to clear them up if so.


How can I tell the good from the bad? And if I cannot and therefore choose to worry about all, then I am chastised and told I am not a nice person, that I am not fair, that I just don't understand .. that MOST muslims are 'good muslims' (but see above .. even that is a problematic phrase). But if you ask many of those 'good muslims' already settled here in North America about whether they think that Sharia law should be instituted where they live or nationally, it seems many will say yes. And the numbers seem to prove that the more muslims who are in a country, the more clout they have and the more they push for changes to that end. So, for a non-muslim, this is a conundrum.


You cannot even understand each other it seems so how can you help us to understand? I really want to. I really want to believe that all refugees (well most .. no group is totally homogenous .. I understand that) from predominantly muslim countries can and will be good citizens in a new westernized country but how can I when they often seem to lie (and that is ok by their faith) and many really don't seem to want to acculturate, just transplant themselves to a new country and begin to try to own it.


So ... in good clear simple English .. can you easily define some basic terms for me - beginning with abrogation (and please tell me if you believe it is important and if so why)? Which of the passages in the books/verses, etc. in the sunnahs/hadiths, etc. that deal with Mohammed's life in Mecca or Medina take precedence where there is a conflict between what was written early in his life and what was written later?


Then please go on to explain the role of taquiyya and how you think we, as non-muslim, non-Arabic speaking westerners, can trust someone who believes that (at any time and apparently in any way) it is ok for a muslim, in the name of Allah, to lie to anyone who to them is an unbeliever/kuffar/infidel/kafir. And if taquiyya is something we have to worry about, how can we tell if a muslim is lying or telling the truth about anything? Is there any specific question or questions we can ask to determine that truth is being told when it is a muslim we are talking to? I hope there is but I cannot imagine what that might be.


And finally (for now) 'jihad' - which has become a dirty word but I can tell you that it is getting really quite difficult to believe that the violent interpretation of that concept is not getting to be the prevalent one .. and to trust that those who are not participating in that are not at least cheering on the sidelines while others do and condoning it. I get that in theory there are several interpretations of this concept - one is merely an internal struggle to understand self and faith and the other usually has more overt manifestations against all non-muslims and may take a violent or non-violent form. It seems some say one follows the other, some say there is no second meaning, some say both exist or the second takes precedence over the other. What say you?
My friend
This topic is questions to Muslims
It is a useful dialogue
The latter question is the following verse
Your wives came to you plow your wives Aany you like
The difference here on the word Aany
Because the linguistic meaning of it is the place
While Muslims do not recognize this linguistic truth it is one of the realities of the Arabic language
In other words, an Arab word and refers to the place
But they refuse to admit it
2-
You want to know Islam in one session
OK
Islam and Muslims believe that the Koran is the word of God
And that the laws that it is the best of human laws
These must be laws governing the world because it is the best
This is called the principle of governance
It is a political concept of an Islamic fundamental
But most Westerners do not know this essential education
So everywhere
Spreading the Muslims, they want to implement the provisions of the Islamic Islamic law
They use all peaceful methods of warfare
The best examples are Bosnia
Muslims in Bosnia after the deterioration of the Yugoslavian Federation fought for the establishment of their state
And also what is happening now in southern France
Some of the German soil
So Islam is a religion here is not a spiritual
But a political ideology
------------------------
3-Some believe that the Jihad in Islam is the word of language
But the whole thought
The Koran declares this idea
When the balance of power become not by Muslims
The Muslims say that jihad is the only defensive
While when they have the power becomes offensive jihad
Jihad in which states are interdependent, one supports the other
-------------------
4-In the Koran there is education infidels and infidels
There Qarane explicit text says
But detest unclean
When you translate the word unclean
It word awesome in the true meaning
This verse leads to faith in the subconscious mind to every Muslim
The infidels and unbelievers are unclean
So this dangerous education is from the teachings of the Koran
------------
5-Koran says that the Jews of wrath
And the Christians of the lost
This education raises hatred
------
Note
You can use Google translate from Arabic to English
If you can not understand some meanings
With all the thanks and respect
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Old 02-12-2017, 09:45 AM
 
2,412 posts, read 1,320,786 times
Reputation: 5741
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
My friend
This topic is questions to Muslims
It is a useful dialogue
The latter question is the following verse
Your wives came to you plow your wives Aany you like
The difference here on the word Aany
Because the linguistic meaning of it is the place
While Muslims do not recognize this linguistic truth it is one of the realities of the Arabic language
In other words, an Arab word and refers to the place
But they refuse to admit it
2-
You want to know Islam in one session
OK
Islam and Muslims believe that the Koran is the word of God
And that the laws that it is the best of human laws
These must be laws governing the world because it is the best
This is called the principle of governance
It is a political concept of an Islamic fundamental
But most Westerners do not know this essential education
So everywhere
Spreading the Muslims, they want to implement the provisions of the Islamic Islamic law
They use all peaceful methods of warfare
The best examples are Bosnia
Muslims in Bosnia after the deterioration of the Yugoslavian Federation fought for the establishment of their state
And also what is happening now in southern France
Some of the German soil
So Islam is a religion here is not a spiritual
But a political ideology
------------------------
3-Some believe that the Jihad in Islam is the word of language
But the whole thought
The Koran declares this idea
When the balance of power become not by Muslims
The Muslims say that jihad is the only defensive
While when they have the power becomes offensive jihad
Jihad in which states are interdependent, one supports the other
-------------------
4-In the Koran there is education infidels and infidels
There Qarane explicit text says
But detest unclean
When you translate the word unclean
It word awesome in the true meaning
This verse leads to faith in the subconscious mind to every Muslim
The infidels and unbelievers are unclean
So this dangerous education is from the teachings of the Koran
------------
5-Koran says that the Jews of wrath
And the Christians of the lost
This education raises hatred
------
Note
You can use Google translate from Arabic to English
If you can not understand some meanings
With all the thanks and respect

Thank you for answering me, mahasn sawresho.


So, are you saying (#2) that Islam is indeed a political ideology (although I know of course that it has a religious component) as many who are not muslim believe? If that is the case, are those who are not muslim right to say that Islam itself really is not compatible with western government ideals that we need to generally keep church and state separate? People can believe as they wish - there is no issue with that - but most of us also believe they should not push those beliefs on others and that theocratic governments are just bad news because they diminish the individual's natural right to think and act for themselves and be responsible for their own actions and, in so doing, determine their own consequences.


If someone moves to a country where things are quite different than they may have been back home, I believe they should just quietly try to fit into their new society and realize that that is what they bargained for - that it is not their job to try to change that society to what they want (especially very quickly by deliberating flooding the country with an overwhelming number of similar believers) but rather they should just accept and be grateful for the new way of doing things - though of course they can worship as they please otherwise. And if they don't think that will work for them, they have other options beyond trying to change the new place into where they came from .. they can go back to live where they feel more a part of the society because there are already so many others there who believe as they do.


So then to go on to the concept of jihad - you seem to be saying even if the individual muslim says that it is a only a self-struggle, not given to violence or conquering others, I gather I should not believe what they may tell me on that score. I am sorry to hear that. Whether one 'peacefully invades' a country that is not yet predominantly muslim or uses more openly violent methods, is that a 'right or nice thing to do'? It just seems to me that muslims are individuals/people as much as they are a larger collective means of conquering the world. Can and do they think for themselves on that level (the individual level) at all?


I do not sanction any religion trying to take over the minds and lives of others - by any means. But, Islam does seem to come with the added weight of being at least as politically motivated as spiritually - though I understand that is a part of being muslim and following Islam and to a muslim that seems just part and parcel of his/her religion. I am not one who likes proselytizing at all - by any religion. But, this seems much more serious than what we in the west are used to in that regard. It unfortunately does sound, if I read you correctly, that we should be concerned, very concerned about the numbers we accept and the rate at which we try to absorb muslims in the west. I wish this were not so - since I am a compassionate person but I also do not like to be stupidly so.


Since the Qur'aan seems to (according to you) allow for, and probably even promotes, 'by any means necessary' to essentially 'conquer' other peoples and lands in the name of Islam, I would presume that 'taquiyya' is indeed permissible and even encouraged in the attempt to do that. If that is the case, how would you go about 'vetting' the intentions of a muslim to be a good citizen of a country that he or she may secretly believe is one to be eventually turned into a muslim country and put under Sharia law? Their personal contribution to that may be simply to condone and cheer from the sidelines as others take care of ensuring the transition to that ultimate state or by having so many kids that they increase the numbers of muslims drastically from within their new country while knowing full well that the general population is not also doing so and probably won't again have the large numbers to stay ahead of the muslim 'invasion' so to speak. They may not in themselves be violent people but they don't speak up and condemn muslim violence either or if they do .. are they telling the truth about how they feel (in other words, how can we tell they are not invoking the principle of taquiyya even then)?


And yes, unfortunately I get that those of us who are not muslim will be always regarded as lesser beings, the unclean, the unwashed, the infidels. That being the case, how am I supposed to interact with muslims in everyday life - those who won't actually say that they view me that way? I don't want to just shun them because they MIGHT think that way .. I was raised to treat individuals as equals unless they do something to show me they are out to get me or hate me.

The one question I don't think you addressed sufficiently though is how we deal with the idea of taquiyya. Can any muslim be believed about anything (other than perhaps about general everyday things like what colour they see the sky as being and things of that ilk)? If so, how do we test that if lying is ok in the teachings they follow? I unfortunately intuitively believe you .. and I think you said somewhere that you are muslim? .. but should I? I have to wonder if I am only believing you because what you tell me agrees what I have heard and read elsewhere, written and said primarily by non-muslims. How do any of us find 'truth' and if we can't, do we have to believe the worst case scenarios and protect ourselves so we won't be surprised if they are proven to be truth down the line? It seems to me that muslims may be boxing themselves in here.

Again I thank you for answering me though these are not the answers I would like to hear .. that my instincts and those of many of us in the west are probably correct.

Last edited by Aery11; 02-12-2017 at 10:04 AM..
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Old 02-12-2017, 10:49 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,434 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
Thank you for answering me, mahasn sawresho.


So, are you saying (#2) that Islam is indeed a political ideology (although I know of course that it has a religious component) as many who are not muslim believe? If that is the case, are those who are not muslim right to say that Islam itself really is not compatible with western government ideals that we need to generally keep church and state separate? People can believe as they wish - there is no issue with that - but most of us also believe they should not push those beliefs on others and that theocratic governments are just bad news because they diminish the individual's natural right to think and act for themselves and be responsible for their own actions and, in so doing, determine their own consequences.


If someone moves to a country where things are quite different than they may have been back home, I believe they should just quietly try to fit into their new society and realize that that is what they bargained for - that it is not their job to try to change that society to what they want (especially very quickly by deliberating flooding the country with an overwhelming number of similar believers) but rather they should just accept and be grateful for the new way of doing things - though of course they can worship as they please otherwise. And if they don't think that will work for them, they have other options beyond trying to change the new place into where they came from .. they can go back to live where they feel more a part of the society because there are already so many others there who believe as they do.


So then to go on to the concept of jihad - you seem to be saying even if the individual muslim says that it is a only a self-struggle, not given to violence or conquering others, I gather I should not believe what they may tell me on that score. I am sorry to hear that. Whether one 'peacefully invades' a country that is not yet predominantly muslim or uses more openly violent methods, is that a 'right or nice thing to do'? It just seems to me that muslims are individuals/people as much as they are a larger collective means of conquering the world. Can and do they think for themselves on that level (the individual level) at all?


I do not sanction any religion trying to take over the minds and lives of others - by any means. But, Islam does seem to come with the added weight of being at least as politically motivated as spiritually - though I understand that is a part of being muslim and following Islam and to a muslim that seems just part and parcel of his/her religion. I am not one who likes proselytizing at all - by any religion. But, this seems much more serious than what we in the west are used to in that regard. It unfortunately does sound, if I read you correctly, that we should be concerned, very concerned about the numbers we accept and the rate at which we try to absorb muslims in the west. I wish this were not so - since I am a compassionate person but I also do not like to be stupidly so.


Since the Qur'aan seems to (according to you) allow for, and probably even promotes, 'by any means necessary' to essentially 'conquer' other peoples and lands in the name of Islam, I would presume that 'taquiyya' is indeed permissible and even encouraged in the attempt to do that. If that is the case, how would you go about 'vetting' the intentions of a muslim to be a good citizen of a country that he or she may secretly believe is one to be eventually turned into a muslim country and put under Sharia law? Their personal contribution to that may be simply to condone and cheer from the sidelines as others take care of ensuring the transition to that ultimate state or by having so many kids that they increase the numbers of muslims drastically from within their new country while knowing full well that the general population is not also doing so and probably won't again have the large numbers to stay ahead of the muslim 'invasion' so to speak. They may not in themselves be violent people but they don't speak up and condemn muslim violence either or if they do .. are they telling the truth about how they feel (in other words, how can we tell they are not invoking the principle of taquiyya even then)?


And yes, unfortunately I get that those of us who are not muslim will be always regarded as lesser beings, the unclean, the unwashed, the infidels. That being the case, how am I supposed to interact with muslims in everyday life - those who won't actually say that they view me that way? I don't want to just shun them because they MIGHT think that way .. I was raised to treat individuals as equals unless they do something to show me they are out to get me or hate me.

The one question I don't think you addressed sufficiently though is how we deal with the idea of taquiyya. Can any muslim be believed about anything (other than perhaps about general everyday things like what colour they see the sky as being and things of that ilk)? If so, how do we test that if lying is ok in the teachings they follow? I unfortunately intuitively believe you .. and I think you said somewhere that you are muslim? .. but should I? I have to wonder if I am only believing you because what you tell me agrees what I have heard and read elsewhere, written and said primarily by non-muslims. How do any of us find 'truth' and if we can't, do we have to believe the worst case scenarios and protect ourselves so we won't be surprised if they are proven to be truth down the line? It seems to me that muslims may be boxing themselves in here.

Again I thank you for answering me though these are not the answers I would like to hear .. that my instincts and those of many of us in the west are probably correct.
1-Thank you for your understanding of my English, and I think it is not difficult if you use Google to translate a very easy
2-I am a man and I am not a woman
He studied Islamic law and also worked a lawyer when I was in my country before migrating under duress
3-I do not work for the benefit of any party and personal type here motivated
4-You are interested in point No. 2
This is a very important issue
Is Islam a spiritual or political is
The oldest I answer you shortcut
Islam is a political ideology and a colonialist
The proof
Islam has two stages in its development
The first was in Mecca, a peaceful period
The followers of Muhammad no more than a few different figure which is in any case the figure did not get to a hundred believer in Islam
This is not my words, but he wrote Muslims
The verses here are transferred from other sources, there were people affecting Mohammed
Monk Bahira
Pastor and son Raakh Novell
The verses are called Meccan verses
So the stage was not able to gain followers of Islam
At this stage, not the states verdicts and Islamic legislation
4-The second stage is to migrate to Medina stage
Including Muslims went to the invasion and war and to impose their control over the ancient world
5-
Mohammed went from this city and his followers increased
The reason is that he moved to the combat phase
The states of jihad and fighting all of the states of Medina
There is a concept which means cancellation Alencssch
Said Mohammed states fighting
The infidels and infidels, Jews and Christians
6-Muhammad did not abolish the laws of the old barbarian war which spoils the captives and looting
For this reason, his followers increased and you know very well that this doctrine that bears these features are not spiritual
Because of the spread of Islam in the first form
Islamic thought and became a political and religious idea of biblical wrapped original
It is that God is one
Even the idea of intellectual demolition of Islam is also the subject of another
And here the first reply ends with you and I will continue in subsequent answers

With all the thanks and respect
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Old 02-12-2017, 11:11 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,434 times
Reputation: 204
7-I provided you in the previous summary of the answer to the two stages in the emergence of Islam
Now I offer you
Some facts about Islam
Islam does not believe in democracy
Because democracy means the rule of the people and vote
But Islam rejects the idea of the rule of the people
It believes in Mbda Alhakkamih
He said the ruling is only God
The law is only the Koran
And it may not be any legislation contrary to the law of the Koran

For this reason Muslims and all Muslim countries do not know democracy
And not be able to apply sound democracy
And also Muslim societies in general not know individual freedoms
Because it is under the pressure of Islamic law

Political Islam is the state after the Prophet

Political Islam is the state after the Prophet
History provides us with the four caliphs
When reading in history and see the wars that took place in that historical era

And the wars and the most famous Battle of the Camel
It is between Muhammad's wife Aisha and her name
And between Ali Bin Abi Taleb, a cousin of Mohammed

After that continued political and colonial Islam
The Umayyad Caliphate
In that period, the battle got Alttaatv
And the killing of Mohammed's descendants who are Hassan and Hussein

I believe that the killing was for political reasons, not for religious reasons
Muhammad's descendants who wanted the caliphate
And fighting the sons of Bani Umayya cousins who robbed them
8-
I think this brief reading to Islamic history until you proved that Islam is a political and colonialist and expansionist

At the stage of Ummayad Muslims they went to Europe and were able to occupy Spain
The reason is not a religious goal, but the booty and captives
And also in the brain wash nymphs paradise
9-
The continued Islamic history and in the same expansionist political line
The Abbasid caliphate in Iraq
Then the Islamic Caliphate in Turkey
And after expansion in India and some countries of the world in the modern era
10-Conclusion of this brief narrative
Islam is a colonial political movement and not a religious movement
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Old 02-12-2017, 11:31 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,434 times
Reputation: 204
to-Aery11 --
---------
11-And now I offer you some Islamic concepts
It is a concept Damma
It is a concept used when referring people who live in Islamic countries, non-Muslims
And also the concept of infidels
And also the concept of the Peace House and House of War
The concept of fighting Jews and Christians
The concept Aldzzzah
The concept of the spoils and divided between Muslims

12-These are all Islamic concepts discussed in the books of ancient and modern Muslims
I am the oldest you quickly
So it proved that Islam is a political rather than religious
Can provide evidence of the Koran and Islamic books in every subject and every concept and teaching of these Islamic teachings also
13-
The question of immigrants to your country
Muslims refuse to integrate with your communities and your values of humanitarian and spiritual
You notice in every country where immigrants are Muslim population is gathering in one place
And also search for the application of Islamic law and imposed on people like notes
Almzzbouh on the Islamic way
Veil
And also attempt to spread Islam by all means
Even a way to marry an effective method used by political Islam

14-Altakiaah
Is an Islamic concept, but the difference between it Alsseah school and school Alssnh
But steady, and the concept of God's words in the Koran
It is trying to change the words of God in the Koran violates Islam

All-Muslims use the good
But they do not know it well

The oldest case you got in one of the Arab countries
I will not type the name of the place and also will write time out of respect to the rules of the forum
In his Friday sermon
Khatib said Friday sermon motorcycle for shops selling liquor
in the city
In less than three hours it was burned liquor stores in that city and moved to another city
It could develop into the abuses of that
But the provincial authorities managed to contain the situation quickly
And
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Old 02-12-2017, 12:37 PM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,172 posts, read 10,989,569 times
Reputation: 7412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
For hours now (just today .. I have done this before and gotten about nowhere) I have been trying really hard to read the posts in this forum and particularly in this thread and my brain is spinning trying to figure out if are any basic answers to basic questions that non-Muslims might need to understand Islam buried deep in all your arguments and rhetoric. I can't even figure that out and I have always been a fairly bright person so I am told. Trying to fully understand many of these posts is like doing brain twisters on steroids I think.


<snip>
For some reason unknown to me, people who do not know English find this forum (probably via Internet searches). They use translation software to post because they do not know how to post using English. The translations come out almost unreadable. Surely the other posts here must come out unintelligible when they are translated from English into their native languages. Even though communication is almost impossible, they continue to post.

Those get crowded in with people who only come here to criticize Islam and Muslims.

It's really baffling to try to understand some of the posts here. If you can be patient waiting for him, Woodrow LI seems to know a lot about Islam, he lives in the United States, speaks English, and know Arabic, and reads the Qur'an in Arabic. He's very willing to answer any questions put to him.
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Old 02-12-2017, 01:33 PM
 
2,412 posts, read 1,320,786 times
Reputation: 5741
mahasn sawresho -


Once again I thank you sir. I believe you. I understand what you are saying. Why however are you trying to tell me the truth when most won't? I thank for that .. but I am still not sure I understand why you would if you are muslim too.


I chose only 3 words/concepts to ask you about because I thought that truly understanding the connection of those words to what the average muslim believes would give me at least a partial answer to the larger question of 'what should we in the west do about the current 'migration' situation'. I don't know where you live but this is very controversial here, especially right now. Can you tell me if you think my understanding just those particular concepts is sufficient for at least at least pointing me in the right direction .. did I guess right there?


I knew about the differences between the Mecca and Medina eras - but I guess I was hoping that abrogation was not something that most muslims applied - so they could be telling me the truth if they said they don't believe in the more war-like edicts of Muhammad's later years, that they only believe in what they say is the spiritual and peaceful and 'nicer' side of Islam (though since all the bad stuff exists, they could someday change their minds on that, or, because they are allowed to use taquiyya in any way that benefits the Islamic cause, they could be lying to me anyway).


It seems that if what you say is true (and as I said, it seems it is and it confirms what I have previously read/heard) then the question about taquiyya is moot. In short, there is no real reason to even devise a test to be able to tell if someone can be trusted because by the very nature of Islam and the fact they call themselves muslim, we cannot trust any of them to not want to change wherever they go. If they say they want to destroy our way of life then we reject them anyway so the only other answer is they say they don't want to do that - but then we have to decide if they are telling the truth and it seems we cannot do that easily so again we have to reject them. I really hate that that may the only way to deal with this issue but if it is, it is.


If they cannot assimilate fully, they cannot and will never acculturate. And further, they don't really want to even if they tell you they do. Very sad but we need to accept that I think.


Having said that, I suppose there are those who are born muslim/into muslim families/whose father is muslim (and my understanding is that that means they are automatically muslim and to leave the faith and become an apostate is probably very dangerous thing to do so since they don't really want to practice any religion, they don't bother leaving or denying it). Those persons may have never ever attended a mosque, don't speak Arabic, have never read the Qur'aan or any other Islamic doctrines, really know nothing about their 'faith' (in any regard), have never lived in a muslim country and perhaps even have no muslim friends.


In other words, their experience has probably been totally western and they may have no real allegiance to their faith, and they may speak out against it even. In theory, we should be able to trust them to have at least no terrible ulterior motives. They are just a part of the fabric of our normal (messy and not always perfect, but, as you say, mostly democratic) society so we can deal with that kind of person as we deal with any other.


But that is not what we have coming in as 'refugees' unfortunately. They would not be refugees if they were as I described - already totally westernized.


If this is the case, if one is compassionate and cares about people in general, I guess the best thing is just to help those who are truly in need of a safe place to live, etc. to stay as much as possible close to where they came from, so they can go back to their countries if and when the conflicts that apparently caused them to flee are resolved. If I were a refugee from a war torn country that is what I would want most likely anyway. The fact that most don't seem to want to do that was actually a cue to investigate their motives further - at least for me. I had to question why they didn't move here (or even seem to want to) before there was a problem that caused them to flee their own countries.


However, in the west we have many clamouring for refugees to be let in here. The best it seems we can do to keep those who call for open borders/immigration at bay it seems is to slow the flow and try to 'vet' these people more carefully. I am fairly sure that is not the answer we should be pursuing because even if a family or individual has no 'record' of bad behaviour, etc. in their previous countries (if even that can be determined), no record does not mean they are not determined to eventually flood this country with those who believe in Islam and to take it over that way in time. I may be able to understand why they would do that but I do think, if we value our freedoms and way of life, that is not something we want in our midst, regardless of whether there is any terrorism or not. At this point however I don't think there is any way (much less a better or 'more extreme' way) to 'vet' anyone who is a muslim supposedly fleeing from any muslim country.


As a westerner, I am really truly sorry that you have confirmed what I thought because I do care about people in general but we have to wrap our minds around the fact that not all people think the same way for reasons we cannot always understand. I was hoping it was not a suicidal thing to do to take in some of these people. Perhaps for me it is not - I am much older and may not be around to see the eventual results of a long term strategy to radically change where I live (and that is in two countries - both Canada and the US .. and the UK too where I was born and my daughter lives - so I have an interest that spans across several different western political boundaries) but I worry not just about myself but for future generations.


So I think you have answered my questions. I still want to know more about Islam and how and why muslims may think as they do, but, that is from a more academic standpoint I guess - just because I have a curious mind more than anything. I did find it a bit hard to understand your way of putting things when I began reading your posts but it is already getting easier so I will keep reading what you write on deeper aspects of Islam.


I wasn't totally sure that you had finished what you were writing to me before I started this post - I will be watching to see if you have more to say in that regard too. I am still listening, especially if you think I have misunderstood something and come to the wrong conclusions as a result. I would not want to do that.


Thank you once again. You have really helped me clarify my thoughts, at least for the moment.
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Old 02-12-2017, 01:35 PM
 
2,412 posts, read 1,320,786 times
Reputation: 5741
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
For some reason unknown to me, people who do not know English find this forum (probably via Internet searches). They use translation software to post because they do not know how to post using English. The translations come out almost unreadable. Surely the other posts here must come out unintelligible when they are translated from English into their native languages. Even though communication is almost impossible, they continue to post.

Those get crowded in with people who only come here to criticize Islam and Muslims.

It's really baffling to try to understand some of the posts here. If you can be patient waiting for him, Woodrow LI seems to know a lot about Islam, he lives in the United States, speaks English, and know Arabic, and reads the Qur'an in Arabic. He's very willing to answer any questions put to him.
Thank you too. I have heard from one person but while I have come to some conclusions (which could still change if new things come to light) based on what he says, that does not mean I am not open to hearing from others with perhaps different perspectives, particularly if they are muslim. Believe me, I don't like having to come to the conclusions I have said I might have to come to. Don't worry .. I will be reading this forum/thread for a while to come I am sure.


I am not here to criticize .. only to learn.
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Old 02-12-2017, 02:46 PM
 
144 posts, read 107,103 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
mahasn sawresho -

Once again I thank you sir. I believe you. I understand what you are saying. Why however are you trying to tell me the truth when most won't? I thank for that .. but I am still not sure I understand why you would if you are muslim too.
Because he's not muslim, he's here bashing Islam only.
I don't even want to put my energy answering him, he's not here to learn or debating just having an argument for everything a muslim can say.
He says constantly he speaks perfectly arabic it's just a diversion to confuse people because he doesn't understand the verses not the context sometimes.

I wish the Islam section was like the other ones, they don't seems to have always the same people asking and answering themselves to their own questions (just for bashing others) and confusing people who think they are part of the faith.
In the end people like you who try to understand other religions don't get anything...
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Old 02-12-2017, 03:39 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,434 times
Reputation: 204
to-Aery11
Thank you to accept this dialogue
And I think if you use Google to translate the program, there will be no difficulty there is dialogue
Because modern means is to serve the people and I use this method to connect and attendance at this forum
And I am sorry for this
----------------------
You can not understand the doctrines of the believers
For this reason, it is sincere dialogue is the right way until we know the others and their beliefs
----
I am the readers of the first book in which information about Islam and its author is a Belgian origin comes down
The book named the balance right and this is the Arabic naming him
It is the history of Old edition of the book in the early nineteenth century
It is a useful book you can search for it and I know the Arabic version of it, which is forbidden in Arab countries
----------------------
All I write here is from the Koran and Islamic books
I own a small library in my country, and was where many Islamic books
But for the time being adopted on the net because I left books during migration -----
-----------------------
The place where I live at present is Canada
But I could not provide more details of the interest of my safety and the safety of my family also
----------------------------
The mentality of fear still in control of my thinking even though I live in Canada
-------------------
I speak with you absolutely and frankly do not lie in anything
-----------------
So the Islamic faith is the main concern of the world at that time
Many ignorant of this doctrine
And the media obfuscate the facts
That's why I'm here
In this free forum and I try to abide to its rules of dialogue
------------
And we will give you today in the doctrines of Islam Altqqah
And offer you the answer from an Islamist website which is Islam Question and Answer
Supervisor General Sheikh Mohammed Salih
------
the question :
What are the al-taqeeya? And those who practice it? In Opinion No. (101 272), you said it is a special term Shia and they alone of the exercise, but I discussed with some people and they said: The Sunnis also practice it. Is this true?
Note Google does not translate the word correct form
But I do not want a true meaning to write this and write them in English only
---------------
This is the first school, a Alhieah
According to the "soft encyclopedia" in a statement Shia assets (1/54):
: they al-taqeeya - meaning Shiites Imami - originally from the origins of religion they consider, and left it is like to leave the prayer, which is obligatory may not be lifted until the existing comes out, it is left before his release came out of the religion of God and religion Imami" he ended.
-----------
- The second school of these Alssnh

There are al-taqeeya - as an idea of emergency, or a license Ardh- when the Sunnis, but they differ from the taqeeya when rejecting a camel and detailed; it is when the Sunnis compelling case other than the original GATT it necessary and extreme need
---------------------
The source of the al-taqeeya

Is the following verse from the Koran
Ibn Qayyim God's mercy said:
al-taqeeya says that a person other than what he believes to prevent him if hated is not spoken religiously sanctioned lying."
I finished "the provisions of the dhimmis" (2/1038).

And the origin of permissible words of God: (not believers take the unbelievers without believers and who does it is not of God in anything but the fatwa of them Tqap) Al-Imran / 28. -----------
-------
This is an Islamic writer explains the old al-taqeeya centuries ago
Ibn Kathir said God's mercy:
"Saying: (However, the fatwa of them Tqap): the only feared in some countries or times of evil, he may Atekayam phenomenon not Bbatnh and his intention; as narrated by Bukhari from Abu Darda said:" I clench in the faces of the folks and our hearts Talnhm "ended from "interpretation of the son of many" (2/30).
----------------
This is also a contemporary Muslim, explains the word of God
------
Dr. Nasser Al Alagafara:
"al-taqeeya in Islam but often are with the infidels, the Almighty said: (However, the fatwa of them Tqap), Ibn Jarir al-Tabari:" "al-taqeeya that God mentioned in this verse, but it is not a of the infidels from the others said "
----------
Forbade God - the Almighty - for further infidels, and vowed to that reported intimidation, he said: (and who does it is not of God in something) any and commits the prohibition of God in this, he was acquitted of God, and then said - the Almighty -: (but the fatwa of them Tqap): the only feared in some countries and times of evil, he can not Atekayam phenomenon Bbatnh and his intention.
---------------------
So these are the two schools Aslamytan in the interpretation of any of the states of God
--------------
We can therefore say
1-So these are the two schools Aslamytan in the interpretation of any of the states of God
------
Education is important in this verse
Is not the believers take the unbelievers for them
And explain it to you in a simple style
It is that it is not permitted to accept the state of non-Muslim over
----
This is the essence of governance in Islam Mbda
Because the pious associated with the concept of the state
The state here is the ruler or his power
------
And you can review a verse from the Koran and the study of the concept of the pious and the state
Why it is not allowed to become a non-Muslim on the Muslims
----------------
I hope you rely on independent sources in the understanding of this verse well and its impact on the subconscious mind to every Muslim
-----
And finish this response
I made from the Koran and books of Muslims
And it did not offer anything outside the forum rules
That is why I hope that this dialogue will continue the fun until we understand Islam
With all respect
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