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Old 02-13-2017, 08:06 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
I explained to him Mbda or education Alltakih
He asked Muslims to answer his questions. You answered his questions without saying that you are not a Muslim. You pretended to be a Muslim answering this poster's valid questions. That's dishonesty.

Remember, the thread is "Questions to Muslims" and not "Answers from non-muslims". You seem to be asking Muslims questions and then answering them on Muslims' behalf. Do you want to ask Muslims or answer on behalf of Muslims?

You haven't explained anything about Alltakih; you just waffled on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
And it gave him the explanation from two Islamist groups
Shiites and Alssnh
That was useless explanation from you, a Christian. Stop trying to be an expert Muslim in this forum when you can't even understand English.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
And also gave him a verse in which this Alambda]
What is the difference
The poster asked Muslims. You are not a Muslim. That's the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Is the Muslim only understands the Koran
The questions are for Muslims. You are not a Muslim but only pretending to be an Islam expert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Is it not the right of others to understand Islam
It is not your right to pretend to be a Muslim when answering questions about Islam that were put to Muslims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
It provided you an example of the likes of Arabs
It is that the seller does not say that the milk of lactic acid
And you are saying that the milk of lactic acid. I do now know why you are saying so; you are trying to stop anyone trying to taste it and find out for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
When you want to look good for the goods to not depend on the praise of its owner
Thus also the ideas and beliefs
Perhaps I should learn Christianity from a Muslim and not from a Christian.

Christians will make Christianity look good and vice versa (A Christian will not make Islam look good). You, a Christian are proving this point nicely in this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
If you want to examine the doctrine that you should be looking at the dark points of origin and its teachings
If you want to understand the Qur'aan, have an open mind and let the light flood in. A closed mind is always in the dark, unable to understand the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
I am the oldest verse with its number with the Sura
With that style of explaining about the Qur'aan and Islam, I am not surprised that you are the oldest verse. We often come across such old verses in this Islam forum.
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Old 02-13-2017, 09:03 AM
 
2,412 posts, read 1,324,458 times
Reputation: 5744
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There are several reasons for it.
1. Your knowledge about Islam.
2. Who is asking questions?
3. Whether the questions are designed to learn, to teach or just to take the micky out of Muslims and Islam.
I think that is wrong basis to not trust ANY Muslim. Someone you think is a Muslim in this forum may not be a Muslim. Therefore, a disagreement may be between a non-muslim and a Muslim.


Basic tenets of Islam are clarified in the Qur’aan. A deeper study of the Qur’aan will show the correct aspect of each tenet of Islam. No tenet is outside the Qur’aan. One has to refer to the Qur’aan in case of any disagreement between two parties on any tenet of Islam.


Try to find out whether someone claiming to be Muslim is actually a Muslim or merely claiming to be a Muslim. A Muslim must do only Islamic actions. Someone doing actions that are not Islamic actions is actually hypocrite rather than actually a Muslim. For example, a guy enters a mosque in Quebec with a gun, shouts ALLAHU AKBAR, and kills several worshipers. Does that mean that anyone who shouts ALLAHU AKBAR before killing innocent people is a Muslim? Anyone can shout ALLAHU AKBAR. One way of media telling you of any atrocity that the guy had shouted ALLAHU AKBAR was to make you believe from the outset that the guy was a Muslim.


The guy in Quebec has proven that even a non-muslim can shout ALLAHU AKBAR. The media soon stopped telling people that he had shouted ALLAHU AKBAR. It wasn’t going to serve any purpose because the guy wasn’t a Muslim.


Catholics and Protestants particularly in Ireland and Scotland hate each other to the core despite all the flowery language of love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek. When a Christian claims that his God told him to invade Iraq, why should you blame God or the religion of Christianity for his action? The same applies to Muslims and Islam.


Out of 1.5 billion Muslims only about 20% (one fifth) are Arabic speakers. The rest are in the same position as the westerners, but they do try harder to understand Islam and the Qur’aan.

Islam, from where I sit, has no problem whatsoever but some Muslims do have major problems. I like Islam but do not like those who call themselves Muslim and act nothing like a Muslim should act.
They are not winning; media is making them win. Media is married to them and their actions make the news that media thrives on. A peaceful Muslim is useless for the media. He makes no interesting news for the media. That’s why you won’t hear about such Muslims in the media.


So called “extremists”?


I love my family extremely. I am extremely peaceful person in real life. Am I an extremist?
I have read the Qur’aan and understood it from beginning to the end. It has made me an extremely peaceful Muslim. This makes me believe that those who kill innocent people (regardless of their religion or of no religion) have not read and understood the Qur’aan. According to the Qur’aan, Muslims must live in peace with those who live in peace with them.

[60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

[60.9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

Even when Muslims are being attacked by non-muslims (war situation), the direction in the Qur’aan is clear:

[8.61] And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Do you have actual experience of such ‘good muslims’ that they have read and understood the Qur’aan? Most of these headliners are dropouts from education, ex criminals, drug takers, prostitutes visitors, mentally sick, homeless or brainwashed young men. They come out of a prison, say Shahada and are out to make a name for themselves even before they have understood even one chapter of the Qur’aan.

You do not see clerics themselves (who do read the Qur’aan) queuing themselves to commit suicide and trying to go to Paradise. No Muslim well-versed in the teachings of the Qur’aan will ever kill an innocent person or commit suicide by blowing himself up. These terrorists kill even Muslims. In fact they have killed more Muslims than non-muslims. Does the media ever tell you that side of their killings? They killed over 140 Muslim children in a Peshawar school. According to the teachings of the Qur’aan, they will go to hell. If they had read the Qur’aan, they would certainly not have killed those school children.

I am not sure about 3 and 4 years old memorizing the Qur’aan (none of my 6 children have done that). Most memorize just the Arabic Qur’aan rather than they memorize what is said in the Qur’aan.

The only book approved for Islam by Allah and His messenger is the Qur’aan. The Qur’aan does not teach initiation of hatred against others but does mention dealing with them justly even if you hate them:

[5.8] O you who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably; act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and he conscious of Allah; surely Allah is Aware of what you do.

It is impossible for the majority of Muslims to do something about it other than present their own views when asked and explain something about Islam and its teachings. They can’t control media and the powerful politicians presenting all Muslims as the security risk to you. They (politicians and the media) do this often in a veiled manner and let the masses have their own impression of Muslims. You are one of those victims of politicians and the media. This is how the masses are psychologically controlled.

Muslims ARE trying to clear them up but it is not that easy for the ordinary Muslims to be heard like the politicians and the media can get their message across. Bad news always travels fast. If a terrorist tells you that the Qur’aan tells him to kill non-muslims and I tell you that the Qur’aan does not tell him to do so, the terrorist is most likely to be believed and his views made known for days in the media.

It is the politicians and the media that can do a lot to stop these terrorists by not calling them “Islamic” or “Muslims”. The action of those who kill innocent people in schools, mosques and in theatres, is never “Islamic” or of a “Muslim”. By calling their actions “Islamic” and calling them ”Muslims” is sending a wrong signal to these criminals. Such signal is telling them to carry on doing so as if they are the real Muslims and the only ones going to paradise. It is also alienating the majority. I had identified the problem caused by Bush and Blair in 2001 when they were churning out the phrase “Islamic terrorists” on a daily basis. I had said at the time that they are not going to eliminate terrorism with this kind of political mentality and ignorance about what is actually Islamic and what is unislamic. This phrase has now almost died down but other similar phrases have come to surface that are just as bad. Politicians have no clue how to stop these terrorists. Linking Islam to their actions will not stop them; only isolating them from Islam and linking them with kufr (action of hiding the truth) will make them stop their unislamic actions.

A bad one will physically attack others without provocation and the good one will not attack others first. If any Muslim kills a peaceful human being, he is a bad one. If you still call him a ‘good muslim’, you have to prove from the Qur’aan that his killing of a peaceful person is justified in the Qur’aan.

There is no cure for listening to your politicians and keep worrying. They are the ones who bomb other countries to “eliminate terrorism” but instead create more enemies; they label terrorists. Imagine a family home of 8 is bombed in Iraq, Syria or Gaza. 4 members including two elderly parents are killed in it. That would quite likely create 4 more terrorists rather than eliminate terrorism. Politicians are never going to tell you how they are increasing the number of terrorists.

How do you know that? Did you do a survey of all those ‘good muslims’? Ask them, why don’t you go and live where Sharia Law is implemented? I am sure they won’t like living under Sharia Law they have run away from.

Once again, it is the media that fuels these fears. To begin with, Sharia Law cannot be forced upon non-muslims even in a pure Islamic country where only the Sharia law exists. There is no way Muslims can demand implementation of Sharia Law on all in a country like US, Canada or Britain. The best they can do is some civil cases between Muslims or about Muslim individuals to be decided according to Sharia Law that does not break the existing law of the country. Muslims are required to obey the law of the country or leave the country. They cannot demand to have Sharia Law instead of existing laws of the country. Sharia Law can be applicable to Muslims only and never to the non-muslims. I am not sure why the worry about the Sharia Law when it cannot be forced upon the non-muslims.

They will not demand changes other than whatever minor change can be allowed within the law of the country and this change is implemented only on Muslims. Such change must not affect non-muslims.

Do the different Muslims demand different Sharia Laws suited to each one’s understanding or are you referring to disagreements in this forum between Muslims and non-muslim posters?


Not all who claim to be refugees are refugees. But that does not mean that all should be kept out. One can always find out who is lying and who is a genuine refugee. Many have already become part of the country and have even served the country. I came to one of these “new” countries more than 50 years ago. My paternal uncle was already here since 1921. He even served in army during the WWII. My allegiance to the country has never been compromised. In fact, I am what I am now because of this country and its people. There are many others in the similar situation working in the best interests of their country and the life in their adopted country.

If a country does not want refugees then she should do the best to stop creation of refugees. Today’s refugees are mostly from Syria, Iraq, and Libya where they have been subjected to wars and turmoil in the country. Sweeping them all with one brush just because they Mouslem (as Trump pronounced) is not fair on many and discrimination of a whole group. This happened to Jews in the past and is now happening to Muslims.


There is no abrogation of any verse within the Qur’aan. All verses are still valid. Muslims can’t go against any verse of the Qur’aan. The only abrogation mentioned in the Qur’aan is of some elements of the previous revelations (such as Sabbath for a full day). This also exists in the New Testament from the Old Testament. For example eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth to turn the other cheek and love thy enemies. In reality, it is all hate for your enemies (terrorists) and the flowery language is for show only.
Some Muslims have wrongly interpreted the concept of abrogation within the Qur’aan due to their inability to reconcile the verses of the Qur’aan. In reality, there is no abrogation within the Qur’aan. All verses are applicable and valid. None is nullified.

None take precedent over the other. All verses are still applicable and none can be ignored.

In reality, Muslims were persecuted for 13 years in Mecca because they had begun to worship One God instead of 360. Once some Muslims were killed (the first martyrs in Mecca) they were forced to flee to Abyssinia first and then to Yasrib (now Madina). Their belongings in their homes in Mecca were looted as soon as they left. Muslims did not fight back in Mecca because there was no command in the verses already revealed for them to fight back. They had kept turning the other cheek until they were commanded to defend themselves by fighting back when attacked. The first three wars between the Polytheists of Mecca and Muslims in Madina were all near Madina, more than 300 miles from Mecca.


Taquiyya is nothing like you have just described here. What you have described here is not taquiyya but plain lie which is not allowed in Islam. A Muslim must not lie if it is to gain unfair advantage or if it harms someone else’s right. If an innocent person is being persecuted and about to be killed for his religion and “lies” (that he is not a Muslim) to save his life it is not a lie as it harms no one but saves a life. If a criminal Muslim lies about his crime he is lying and that is not allowed in Islam.

[4.135] O you who believe! Be maintainers of justice, bearers of witness of Allah's sake, though it may be against your own selves or (your) parents or near relatives; if he be rich or poor, Allah is nearer to them both in compassion; therefore do not follow (your) low desires, lest you deviate; and if you swerve or turn aside, then surely Allah is aware of what you do.

On the Day of Judgment, even one’s tongue (if used falsely) will testify what the person had done with it.

[24.24] On the day when their tongues and their hands and their feet shall bear witness against them as to what they did.

Taquiyya is specific idea for an extreme situation of persecution to save an innocent life. It is not something used in ordinary day to day life merely to gain advantage and harm others. A lie is a lie in Islam. Islam haters have made too much of the idea in Islam about saving an innocent life.

It is the same idea that was used in the Old Testament by Abraham and Isaac when each had claimed his wife to be his sister save his life (Genesis 12 and Genesis 26).

Did anyone ask Christian GWB if he was telling truth when had claimed that God told him to invade Iraq?
Bush: God told me to invade Iraq | The Independent

In an ordinary situation, a Muslim must not lie. It is as simple as that.

Generally, jihad in Arabic simply mean struggle/striving. The whole life is a struggle (jihad).

Specifically, it can be of two kinds, major and minor. Major “jihad” is one’s struggle/striving against one’s Self to prevent it from doing evil and doing only good. This is major jihad because it is ongoing throughout one’s life. It is not related to war or fighting. There are just 4 verses in the Qur’aan with the word “jihad” in them (9:24, 22:78, 25:52, 60:1). Not even one of them is about war or fighting. In context, all 4 are about Self Struggle for Allah.

Minor jihad is merely a defensive action when under attack. It is not even “jihad” but “jahad” (but of course politicians and the media is not aware of it). That’s where misunderstanding about the word “jihad” begins. “Jahad” comes into effect only during a war situation when Muslims are under attack. It is never an offensive action such as shooting children in a school, driving truck into crowd or killing worshipers in a mosque. Such jahad is only if Muslims are attacked first “because of their religion”. There isn’t even one verse in the Qur’aan that commands Muslims to initiate an offensive action against anyone.

Even in a war situation, there are rules of engagement. When the enemies incline to peace Muslims must also incline to peace:

[8.61] And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

I hope the above helps to some extent.

Regards

Khalif

Thank you, Khalif. I appreciate you taking the time to answer all my many questions. I know this is not simple for anyone to explain or understand but if someone does not ask the questions then we get nowhere at all, do we? I may be asking all the wrong questions too - I have no real idea - but the reason I am asking them is a good one (aside from just wanting to know more about Islam in general) .. I want to know how and when I can trust a muslim .. it is not to find way to not ever trust muslims. I know there many trustworthy, peaceful muslims out there - I want to try to understand how I can determine if someone I meet is such or not.


Not all people in general are trustworthy - you don't have to be muslim for that to be the case - but what I guess I am trying to figure out is whether is a common enough thread within the Islamic world (probably as a result of the teachings therein) which might allow me/us to know when to believe someone who is muslim since it seems to me that taquiyya is an important principle within those teachings - at least to some people, even if they misinterpret it and use it in the wrong way or at the wrong times according to how you think it should be applied. Am I correct?


If the bible were to tell people it is ok (maybe even a good idea) to lie under some conditions .. some will take that and run with it .. perhaps many will if it is not clearly written and publicized ... if they feel that they or their faith or what it tells them to do otherwise could be threatened, could I believe anyone who has ever studied that bible and ascribes to its teachings? Maybe but I am not sure how or when.


At any rate - as I think you know .. first I must determine if the answers are coming from the right people .. and yes, they will be much more useful if they come from someone 'on the inside' so to speak - in this case, muslims. How can I know if someone who purports to be muslim is even a muslim then, or further .. the right kind of muslim?


My questions are NOT for the purpose of figuring out anything about some grave act - that is not my intent or job - that would be for the police, etc. but I get what you are saying about acts of terror and the fact that anyone can say what we have come to know as something that many have been saying prior to committing them - which I will NOT say or repeat because I am not muslim.


So what are the (Islamic) actions by which I can know that someone is indeed a muslim? Is there a simple explanation or set of guidelines I can use to figure that out if someone tells me they are muslim but I am not sure?


Why is Islam not a problem? Do you think some, perhaps many, believe in abrogation and apply it to the teachings of Muhammed in a much different way than you do? If so, what in those teachings might they believe (generally or we will be here for the rest of our lives - I hope you know what I mean) that could be problematic? If you say .. all (or none) .. how can that be when there are things that contradict each other as far as I understand. If you say only the first, the most peaceful, why is that the only part you feel should be believed and followed but others obviously don't see it that way at all - and yet you read the same book?


You have read the Qur'aan and studied it and you say you see nothing in it that can be misinterpreted as anything but peaceful and loving and uplifting, etc.? If there is anything there that could be taken the wrong way, what do you think they are? Where do some people go astray when studying the same book you have? It might not be so bad if it was only the occasional person but I am not so sure we can say that it is only 'occasional' any more when those who call themselves muslim number well over 1 billion people today and it is estimated that 1% of those (sounds like a small percentage but it is a large number considering the total) are probably not 'good muslims' by even your definition.


How, in your opinion, should a muslim act? And why and on what should he base the way he acts? I suppose you may say the Qur'an but it seems that individuals may be getting very different things from the Qur'aan than what you say you have gotten. It seems the Qur'aan may not be as clear as it could be?


Perhaps I used the word 'extreme' but only because I was running out of words to describe those who commit more radical acts (not of love for those they may harm in the process if you get my drift) vs those who don't. Maybe it was the wrong word but that is why I am trying to understand all this. My apologies - I really don't want to go off into the weeds here.


Anyone can be peaceful today and not tomorrow - there is no doubt about that. But some are sick from the outset and while they may be peaceful today and we would not know they are sick, tomorrow they could suddenly erupt. Or they may remain peaceful all their lives but their intent in living is to take over the world in peaceful ways - to spread their philosophy and way of living by sheer numbers rather than be really convincing people that is the way they too should live. Or they may cheer from the sidelines when horrible acts are happening rather than condemn them. Those things can happen with just about anyone .. I will not dispute that .. however, there does seem to be a core tenet within Islam - jihad - for instance that perhaps makes at least the spread of philosophy (which does SEEM to be as much about government as it does about religion) more likely.


So I will ask you (and again I hope you are muslim - I can't tell no matter what you say) if Sharia law is something you see as important for yourself or your country, and if you do, would you want to see Sharia law instituted where ever you may move? If so, why?


In any event, if you are a 'peaceful muslim' (for want of another phrase to describe those who are just average people who can and do fit easily and happily into western society - where everything other than perhaps eating halal and going to a mosque instead of a church is pretty well like the rest of us .. one who doesn't believe that Sharia should be the law of the land), but you do know there are others who may not want to do those things, whose aim is other than to just settle into life as ordinary citizens in perhaps American or Canadian or British or whatever western country they land in - and to uphold the laws and principles of that land - you should be as concerned as some of the rest of us are in making sure that the wrong people do NOT land on these shores.


That being the case, and maybe it is even more critical for you as a peaceful muslim to help us determine this than it might be for the average person because they stand in your name too by calling themselves muslim. How can we 'vet' newcomers or those who want to be newcomers such that we can be pretty sure (not likely 'entirely' but close enough) we do not accept the wrong people and DO accept the right ones? Do you have any ideas?


Here is who I am. I want to understand a bit more about Islam - as I do about a lot of things in this world, including Christian and Jewish faiths, etc. but I am 'spiritual' not religious. I am not here to convert to Islam or any other religion. I am happy to learn what I can even if it doesn't come anywhere near to answering the questions I started out with - but I would hope that I will be better equipped in the end with a sense of who a muslim is, how he or she views themselves .. in the context of the society they live in and as people in general .. what really guides them in life and more importantly about Islam in general.


But, that said, my posts are way too long right now. I am very sorry about that. There seems to be a lot to say even to clarify what it is I am trying to figure out. I appreciate the time you are taking to respond to me. I know I may not have absorbed all you said either so I may have re-asked what you answered - my apologies again .. I am seeing right now that you answered some things I may have repeated here. You don't have to respond again just because I am not on my 2nd cup of coffee yet. I will revisit your post in a few minutes. Thanks.


(and p.s. If we who are not muslims are getting all this wrong - and you could really be right that the media (which I trust about as much as a hungry Bengal tiger on shopping day) is responsible for that - then I think that muslims should be outraged and doing everything they can to straighten all this out for those of us who DO care that you are treated fairly and that religion should not get in the way of determining who is a good person to have live in our neighbourhoods and who is not. There are a lot of myths and lies out there - perhaps on both sides .. I am merely one who is trying to figure this all out for myself because I am not one to just be a follower. I seek my own answers. If were a young student I would do a lot of my studying of the Qur'aan and associated documents - and I have read some bits and pieces here and there but I am not - I am a 67 year old woman who may not have all the time in the world to contemplate all this, to travel and get to know the insides of the minds of the average and perhaps not so average muslim. I hope you consider that as you try to address my questions. Telling me to go study the whole faith and its books may not be the answer for me personally at this time in my life - though I wish it could be.)

Last edited by Aery11; 02-13-2017 at 09:27 AM..
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:57 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
Thank you, Khalif. I appreciate you taking the time to answer all my many questions. I know this is not simple for anyone to explain or understand but if someone does not ask the questions then we get nowhere at all, do we? I may be asking all the wrong questions too - I have no real idea - but the reason I am asking them is a good one (aside from just wanting to know more about Islam in general) .. I want to know how and when I can trust a muslim .. it is not to find way to not ever trust muslims. I know there many trustworthy, peaceful muslims out there - I want to try to understand how I can determine if someone I meet is such or not.
Aery11,

Thank you for your questions. I now understand a bit more as to the kind of questions you would like me to answer ‘from inside’. It is a great help that you have clarified your questions a bit more. This time I will try to keep to the point and express the way I see things from my view point. So here it goes:

It is very difficult to know which Muslim is trustworthy and which is not until one has direct dealing with the person. There are good Muslims and there are some bad Muslims. It depends on several factors:

The culture they have been brought up in.

Who did they learn Islam from?
What kind of advice they had from their parents?

How much they know about the contents of the Qur’aan?

What is their goal in life?

How do they view their relationship with other human being (particularly non-muslims) in everyday life?

How much they understand about humanity?

A good Muslim will always keep his promise. A bad Muslim will often fail to keep his promise.

A good Muslim will keep God in his thoughts as if his God is watching him all the time. This will make him conscious of God before doing any action. This will keep him away from evil act. This is why we pray 5 times a day. That’s 5 times of the day that we have to be conscious of God and 5 times we will be away from doing any evil act. Praying is a training ground for us to keep away from evil actions. God does not need our prayers; we need to pray so that we become conscious of God and stay away from evil acts. This leads us to be good humans (the point of being a good Muslim).

Because I know what Islam stands for, I can ask a Muslim many question to find out where he is in his religion and how good a Muslim he is. I can ask about his upbringing, the type of education he had and what is his main goal in this life. This will reveal whether he is of spiritual type, religious type or material type. I will ask him about “major jihad” in life. If his answer is striving against his Self (nafs in Arabic), to control his inherited potential to do evil (we have potential to do both good and evil) then he understands Islam and is likely to be a good Muslim. On the other hand, if he said jihad is war against all infidels (kuffar) then he is danger to us all, even to Muslims. In addition if he fails to keep his promises, he is most likely to be a bad Muslim. There are other signs too. Is he a humble type of man or arrogant and thinks too much about himself. Does he listen others or just wants to talk. There is lot more that can help know about another person. The same can help about knowing a Muslim.

You are correct about taquiyya but many Muslims haven’t even heard about it. You can ask a Muslim directly to know what is taquiyya. From his reply you would know whether you, a non-muslim, can trust him or not.

You are also thinking on the right lines about taquiyya in the Bible (Genesis 12 and Genesis 26). It has been used in the Bible and that’s why it may have been used by some Jews in other cases too. Perhaps that’s why it was used in dealing with Muslims 1400 years ago.

A good Muslim will try to pray 5 times a day but more importantly he will always keep away from doing an evil act, refrain from lying as it is a major sin, fast in the month of Ramadan if he is fit to do so, will give in charity regularly if he is able to give, will not cheat, will not steal, will be good to his family, wife, children and parents if they are still alive and good to all other peaceful human beings. He will know that he will be judged one day in the Court of God for his every action in this life on earth. He will know that this life is temporary and the real life is not material life but spiritual life. Real peace and happiness is not in material things but in peace and spiritual life.

Islam is not a problem as it is the relationship between man and God. It is about taking guidance from God in this life and becoming vicegerent of God on earth. It leads man to be the best earthly creation on earth. A man has to become a godly person on earth to become good human being. A Muslim can’t become a good Muslim unless he is a good human being too. Muslims have major problems because they are deficient in Islamic education as well as a lot of them have had poor academic education. Quite a lot do not value humanity simply because they haven’t been told much about humanity. Quite a few of them are more interested in being known as Muslims rather than being good human beings. Most are interested in what Muhammad said (ahadith) than what Allah said through the Qur’aan.

Nothing in the Qur’aan contradicts another verse in the Qur’aan. Every verse of the Qur’aan fits in like a jigsaw puzzle fits perfectly. In haste, you can’t fit pieces in their right places.

It has been peace in Mecca for over 1400 years. This peace came to Mecca only after the enemies of Muslims in Mecca stopped attacking Muslims. That’s what Muslims wanted in the first place without any fighting there. It could have happened 23 years earlier if they had trusted Muhammad then.

I do not say that nothing can be misinterpreted in the Qur’aan. I say (a) people do misinterpret the Qur’aan when they do not study it properly and (b) there is nothing in the Qur’aan that is contradicted by the Qur’aan itself. Those who misinterpret the Qur’aan take individual verses out of context and understand them wrongly. Those who killed 141 school children in Pakistan or even for cartoons in Paris were not acting on anything in the Qur’aan but acting against the teachings of the Qur’aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
How, in your opinion, should a muslim act? And why and on what should he base the way he acts? I suppose you may say the Qur'an but it seems that individuals may be getting very different things from the Qur'aan than what you say you have gotten. It seems the Qur'aan may not be as clear as it could be?
The Qur’aan is clear enough or else no one will understand it. People, who do not understand it, take the verses out of context and give them their own meanings. The main thing a Muslim should never do is lie to gain unfair advantage that would harm another person in any way. If any act of a Muslim is going to have adverse effect on another human then it should not be knowingly done by that Muslim. For example, I should not drink alcohol because if I burn my liver others will have to pay the price when a liver transplant is done with taxpayers’ money (I know that I can’t afford a liver transplant). In such a case, I have no right to make other pay the price for my action of drinking alcohol.

As for “jihad”, it is a personal striving to be a good human being. People have wrongly created impression that it is attack on non-muslims. The fundamental rule in Islam about dealing with non-muslims is to deal with them justly. We can’t physically attack them if they do not attack us first. We can live with them in peace in a community if they want to do the same. If attacked, defending is our right as “jahad”. When attack stops, “jahad” stops too. I can’t understand why such “jahad” is labelled “jihad” and is publicized as something nasty in the western media but not a “crusade” by GWB. Physically attacking peaceful non-muslims is not “jihad” or even “jahad” but a plain criminal act.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
So I will ask you (and again I hope you are muslim - I can't tell no matter what you say) if Sharia law is something you see as important for yourself or your country, and if you do, would you want to see Sharia law instituted where ever you may move? If so, why?
First of all, most of the Sharia Law elements are already part of the civilized and democratic western countries such as US, Canada and Britain. I am happy to stay in such countries as my human rights are likely to be protected better here than any of today’s so called Muslim majority countries. Of course there are minor differences but overall laws in these countries are good and not much requires changing except through proper democratic system. Muslims who do not want to obey the laws of the country should leave and go to a country where laws are to their liking. This undertaking should be taken from them before they are allowed in for any reason.

If someone is calling himself a Muslim, he is not standing in my name. Muslim isn’t a name; it is entirely dependent on someone’s own actions of obeying God. Islam means Submission to the Will of God, the Submitter is regarded as “Muslim” is Arabic. I am Muslim because I submit, and not because I am standing in the name of a terrorist who calls himself “Muslim”. I think this impression that people have of Muslims standing in each other’s name is false. We are as individuals as any other human being. No two Muslims are exactly the same in their actions. I am not responsible for others’ action and others are not responsible for my action. Each Muslim is responsible for his/her own actions according to the Qur’aan:

[Qur’aan 6.164] Say: What! Shall I seek a Lord other than Allah? And He is the Lord of all things; and no soul earns (evil) but against itself, and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return, so He will inform you of that in which you differed.

[Qur’aan 39.7] If you are ungrateful, then surely Allah is Self-sufficient above all need of you; and He does not like ungratefulness in His servants; and if you are grateful, He likes it in you; and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return, then will He inform you of what you did; surely He is Cognizant of what is in the breasts.

[Qur’aan 53.38] That no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another-


This is why I can’t be made responsible for a Muslim’s action who I do not even know.

Many, who call themselves Muslims, never pray or fast and they drink alcohol (banned in Islam). When we say they are not Muslims, we are told to shut up because they say they are Muslims, and who the hell are you to decide whether they are Muslims or not. So we say, “fine”, it’s not our problem as we have nothing to do with such people who act in evil ways. We then leave “jihadists” and “crusaders” to their own devices to deal with each other.

When you allow someone in your country thinking that he is a Muslim why don’t you determine first whether he is a Muslim? There are several ways to determine it. There are prayer rooms at many major airports. At borders too, any clean place is a praying place. A Muslim is required to pray 5 times a day. See which ones are praying. You will soon see how many of them are Muslim in name only. This is if you are allowing them in as Muslims. But if you are allowing them in as refugees then you have to determine if they really are refugees and not economic migrants. The best way to stop them coming into your country as refugees is to stop them becoming refugees in the first place. If Russia bombs Aleppo and creates thousands of refugees, Russia should be made to take them all. If US and Britain bomb Iraq, these countries should take the refugees from Iraq. When these countries bomb other countries, is it because they are Muslims? Why are we looking at their muslimhood when taking them in but not when bombing their countries? Is it good to bomb Muslims in their country but not good to allow them into your country? Politicians should be made to answer this question.
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Old 02-14-2017, 10:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Liying about what exactly ?
If a muslim wants to tell you something believe me he will.

I'm sure you can easily google "lie in Islam" and find many answers in muslim websites or the Quran.
Liying in Islam is a sin.
It's acceptable for some reasons like : flattering a wife, reconcile people or in case of war.
You can find many hadiths concerning this if you just make a simple research.
From the Quran :
40.28 Indeed, Allah does not guide one who is a transgressor and a liar.



61.2 O you who have believed, why do you say what you do not do?

61.3 Great is hatred in the sight of Allah that you say what you do not do.



16.106 Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment;



"Ammar was tortured "until he did not know what he was saying," as was his friend Suhayb; in that state, he eventually maligned Muhammad and spoke well of the pagan gods.

Afterwards he went to Muhammad and confessed his recantation. Muhammad asked, "How do you find your heart?" When Ammar replied that he was still a Muslim in his heart, Muhammad said all was well.

A verse of the Qur'an, "someone forced to do it whose heart remains at rest in its faith" (16:106), refers to Ammar."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammar_ibn_Yasir


So as you see people don't do it for no reason.

Thank you. It sounds very similar to what I believe.
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Old 02-14-2017, 11:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Aery11,

Thank you for your questions. I now understand a bit more as to the kind of questions you would like me to answer ‘from inside’. It is a great help that you have clarified your questions a bit more. This time I will try to keep to the point and express the way I see things from my view point. So here it goes:

It is very difficult to know which Muslim is trustworthy and which is not until one has direct dealing with the person. There are good Muslims and there are some bad Muslims. It depends on several factors:

The culture they have been brought up in.

Who did they learn Islam from?
What kind of advice they had from their parents?

How much they know about the contents of the Qur’aan?

What is their goal in life?

How do they view their relationship with other human being (particularly non-muslims) in everyday life?

How much they understand about humanity?

A good Muslim will always keep his promise. A bad Muslim will often fail to keep his promise.

A good Muslim will keep God in his thoughts as if his God is watching him all the time. This will make him conscious of God before doing any action. This will keep him away from evil act. This is why we pray 5 times a day. That’s 5 times of the day that we have to be conscious of God and 5 times we will be away from doing any evil act. Praying is a training ground for us to keep away from evil actions. God does not need our prayers; we need to pray so that we become conscious of God and stay away from evil acts. This leads us to be good humans (the point of being a good Muslim).

Because I know what Islam stands for, I can ask a Muslim many question to find out where he is in his religion and how good a Muslim he is. I can ask about his upbringing, the type of education he had and what is his main goal in this life. This will reveal whether he is of spiritual type, religious type or material type. I will ask him about “major jihad” in life. If his answer is striving against his Self (nafs in Arabic), to control his inherited potential to do evil (we have potential to do both good and evil) then he understands Islam and is likely to be a good Muslim. On the other hand, if he said jihad is war against all infidels (kuffar) then he is danger to us all, even to Muslims. In addition if he fails to keep his promises, he is most likely to be a bad Muslim. There are other signs too. Is he a humble type of man or arrogant and thinks too much about himself. Does he listen others or just wants to talk. There is lot more that can help know about another person. The same can help about knowing a Muslim.

You are correct about taquiyya but many Muslims haven’t even heard about it. You can ask a Muslim directly to know what is taquiyya. From his reply you would know whether you, a non-muslim, can trust him or not.

You are also thinking on the right lines about taquiyya in the Bible (Genesis 12 and Genesis 26). It has been used in the Bible and that’s why it may have been used by some Jews in other cases too. Perhaps that’s why it was used in dealing with Muslims 1400 years ago.

A good Muslim will try to pray 5 times a day but more importantly he will always keep away from doing an evil act, refrain from lying as it is a major sin, fast in the month of Ramadan if he is fit to do so, will give in charity regularly if he is able to give, will not cheat, will not steal, will be good to his family, wife, children and parents if they are still alive and good to all other peaceful human beings. He will know that he will be judged one day in the Court of God for his every action in this life on earth. He will know that this life is temporary and the real life is not material life but spiritual life. Real peace and happiness is not in material things but in peace and spiritual life.

Islam is not a problem as it is the relationship between man and God. It is about taking guidance from God in this life and becoming vicegerent of God on earth. It leads man to be the best earthly creation on earth. A man has to become a godly person on earth to become good human being. A Muslim can’t become a good Muslim unless he is a good human being too. Muslims have major problems because they are deficient in Islamic education as well as a lot of them have had poor academic education. Quite a lot do not value humanity simply because they haven’t been told much about humanity. Quite a few of them are more interested in being known as Muslims rather than being good human beings. Most are interested in what Muhammad said (ahadith) than what Allah said through the Qur’aan.

Nothing in the Qur’aan contradicts another verse in the Qur’aan. Every verse of the Qur’aan fits in like a jigsaw puzzle fits perfectly. In haste, you can’t fit pieces in their right places.

It has been peace in Mecca for over 1400 years. This peace came to Mecca only after the enemies of Muslims in Mecca stopped attacking Muslims. That’s what Muslims wanted in the first place without any fighting there. It could have happened 23 years earlier if they had trusted Muhammad then.

I do not say that nothing can be misinterpreted in the Qur’aan. I say (a) people do misinterpret the Qur’aan when they do not study it properly and (b) there is nothing in the Qur’aan that is contradicted by the Qur’aan itself. Those who misinterpret the Qur’aan take individual verses out of context and understand them wrongly. Those who killed 141 school children in Pakistan or even for cartoons in Paris were not acting on anything in the Qur’aan but acting against the teachings of the Qur’aan.

The Qur’aan is clear enough or else no one will understand it. People, who do not understand it, take the verses out of context and give them their own meanings. The main thing a Muslim should never do is lie to gain unfair advantage that would harm another person in any way. If any act of a Muslim is going to have adverse effect on another human then it should not be knowingly done by that Muslim. For example, I should not drink alcohol because if I burn my liver others will have to pay the price when a liver transplant is done with taxpayers’ money (I know that I can’t afford a liver transplant). In such a case, I have no right to make other pay the price for my action of drinking alcohol.

As for “jihad”, it is a personal striving to be a good human being. People have wrongly created impression that it is attack on non-muslims. The fundamental rule in Islam about dealing with non-muslims is to deal with them justly. We can’t physically attack them if they do not attack us first. We can live with them in peace in a community if they want to do the same. If attacked, defending is our right as “jahad”. When attack stops, “jahad” stops too. I can’t understand why such “jahad” is labelled “jihad” and is publicized as something nasty in the western media but not a “crusade” by GWB. Physically attacking peaceful non-muslims is not “jihad” or even “jahad” but a plain criminal act.


First of all, most of the Sharia Law elements are already part of the civilized and democratic western countries such as US, Canada and Britain. I am happy to stay in such countries as my human rights are likely to be protected better here than any of today’s so called Muslim majority countries. Of course there are minor differences but overall laws in these countries are good and not much requires changing except through proper democratic system. Muslims who do not want to obey the laws of the country should leave and go to a country where laws are to their liking. This undertaking should be taken from them before they are allowed in for any reason.

If someone is calling himself a Muslim, he is not standing in my name. Muslim isn’t a name; it is entirely dependent on someone’s own actions of obeying God. Islam means Submission to the Will of God, the Submitter is regarded as “Muslim” is Arabic. I am Muslim because I submit, and not because I am standing in the name of a terrorist who calls himself “Muslim”. I think this impression that people have of Muslims standing in each other’s name is false. We are as individuals as any other human being. No two Muslims are exactly the same in their actions. I am not responsible for others’ action and others are not responsible for my action. Each Muslim is responsible for his/her own actions according to the Qur’aan:

[Qur’aan 6.164] Say: What! Shall I seek a Lord other than Allah? And He is the Lord of all things; and no soul earns (evil) but against itself, and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return, so He will inform you of that in which you differed.

[Qur’aan 39.7] If you are ungrateful, then surely Allah is Self-sufficient above all need of you; and He does not like ungratefulness in His servants; and if you are grateful, He likes it in you; and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return, then will He inform you of what you did; surely He is Cognizant of what is in the breasts.

[Qur’aan 53.38] That no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another-

This is why I can’t be made responsible for a Muslim’s action who I do not even know.

Many, who call themselves Muslims, never pray or fast and they drink alcohol (banned in Islam). When we say they are not Muslims, we are told to shut up because they say they are Muslims, and who the hell are you to decide whether they are Muslims or not. So we say, “fine”, it’s not our problem as we have nothing to do with such people who act in evil ways. We then leave “jihadists” and “crusaders” to their own devices to deal with each other.

When you allow someone in your country thinking that he is a Muslim why don’t you determine first whether he is a Muslim? There are several ways to determine it. There are prayer rooms at many major airports. At borders too, any clean place is a praying place. A Muslim is required to pray 5 times a day. See which ones are praying. You will soon see how many of them are Muslim in name only. This is if you are allowing them in as Muslims. But if you are allowing them in as refugees then you have to determine if they really are refugees and not economic migrants. The best way to stop them coming into your country as refugees is to stop them becoming refugees in the first place. If Russia bombs Aleppo and creates thousands of refugees, Russia should be made to take them all. If US and Britain bomb Iraq, these countries should take the refugees from Iraq. When these countries bomb other countries, is it because they are Muslims? Why are we looking at their muslimhood when taking them in but not when bombing their countries? Is it good to bomb Muslims in their country but not good to allow them into your country? Politicians should be made to answer this question.

Thank you so much, Khalif! Excellent post, excellent answers and you addressed pretty well all of my questions and concerns in a very understandable reasoned way.


I am however just as concerned for people like you .. those who are following the path you do .. because those who may act in the name of Islam but who, by your assessment, are not real muslims and who you say you don't see as your problem, are potentially a problem for you as much as they may be for us, who are not muslims. I don't know what either of us do about this. You, because you know much more about the Qur'an are at a bit of an advantage because you can more easily determine who these people are if you come in contact with them, but I thank you very much for giving me a way to try to determine who they are as well, even if I don't do it as easily as you might.


I agree with you about the fact that if countries where many muslims live are disrupted, then many flee. We can all see that happening and in most cases I do not blame them (though there are some questions in my mind about how there can be such a large group of single young males who are 'fleeing', and in all probability, many may have left families somewhere behind which doesn't seem like a nice thing to do.)


My heart goes out to all good people who are in that situation anywhere or at any time, who are suffering great devastation and having their lives torn apart by war. My feeling is that the best thing to do is to help them near where they came from (and help them go home once things have calmed down again) rather than to export them with the idea that they will resettle elsewhere far away, in a totally foreign (to them) culture and country where I think many will never be happy or feel at home. It sounds altruistic to take them in and care for them, etc. but are we really doing them (at least a majority of them) or us a favour in the long run? (<- that is a rhetorical question but those who come without yearning for a new country for years and going through the right channels prior to war may not be as happy with the idea that western country laws are 'almost the same as Sharia' once they are plopped down here in a hurry due to having to become refugees.)


Your idea is also interesting .. that the country who creates the refugees is responsible for them. There may be a few problems with that though in that what if there is genuinely just a civil war (and the big gun countries stay right out of it - which frankly I wish they would) and internally many refugees are created in that instance and flee their homes. Who is responsible then for their welfare, etc.? I am not sure how we really determine responsibility either if a bomb that was given to someone in the country but was not actually dropped/detonated by another country, creates 'refugees' - and we may never really even know where that bomb came from the way secrecy is often maintained in these things. And as we all can also see, where do refugees flee to .. perhaps nearby predominantly muslim countries but those get quite overloaded quickly too. No easy answers here - but I like your idea as I think perhaps it would help to keep interference by outside interests more at bay.


Anyway ... I am sorry .. I think I am getting a bit off the 'questions to muslims' track here and this last 'discussion' is probably not for this forum.


I am determined to keep learning more about Islam though .. I just needed to be sure I understood what I see as top level questions first. I am finding the discussions in other threads here quite fascinating actually. They help me to see the similarities as well as the differences in how we of different faiths think and how we got where we are. I think it behooves everyone to know more about Islam these days so we can all make better decisions in how we conduct our lives and our relationships with people in general.
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Old 02-14-2017, 11:34 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
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Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Sorry translation software invented for communication between humans
I believe that my understood many of those who used to read what I write here

You can refer to the Koran in the things that you are not understanding of my words
I am the oldest verse with its number with the Sura
And also offer you the Islamic interpretations
In some cases, the oldest logical questions
And if you want to say why I am here
I tell you even contribute to creating a knowledge base of Islam
This forum targets
I do not disagree with the rules of the Forum in dialogue
I hope that you share my dialogue
With all respect to you
I'm sorry, but you post does not make any sense at all. The words I read do not even come together as comprehensible sentences in common English. I don't see how anybody can understand you.
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Old 02-15-2017, 07:54 PM
 
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Until Islam takes a more pro active role in their madrasa..schools that teach hate to children, their will be little love in the realm of Islam...And the deep hatred for Sufis, Shias, Jews, America, and all western non Islamic countries....There will never be stability, and peace, in the middle east. God is love. Islam needs less hate and more love.

Last edited by folkguitarist555; 02-15-2017 at 08:23 PM..
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Old 02-16-2017, 02:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
Thank you so much, Khalif! Excellent post, excellent answers and you addressed pretty well all of my questions and concerns in a very understandable reasoned way.

I am however just as concerned for people like you .. those who are following the path you do .. because those who may act in the name of Islam but who, by your assessment, are not real muslims and who you say you don't see as your problem, are potentially a problem for you as much as they may be for us, who are not muslims. I don't know what either of us do about this. You, because you know much more about the Qur'an are at a bit of an advantage because you can more easily determine who these people are if you come in contact with them, but I thank you very much for giving me a way to try to determine who they are as well, even if I don't do it as easily as you might.
Actually, I am concerned about these people because they often link us, peaceful Muslims, with those who they perceive to be their enemies. This is why they also murder those Muslims that they do not like. Terrorism is not about just killing non-muslims but more Muslims have been killed through terrorism and car bombs.

Our main problem is that the non-muslims are linking these terrorists with all other Muslims and doubting even the peaceful Muslims. My main solution in dealing with these people (terrorists) is not to call them Muslims. Just call them kafir (who know the truth but try to hide it). The word “kafir” in their minds is reserved for “infidels”. They are going to hate being called “kafir”. Once people begin to call them “kafir”, it will make them think and go back to the drawing board about being Muslims. This is the only way to make them peaceful Muslims. As long as the politicians and the media keep calling them Muslim, these people will keep getting confidence thinking that they are the true Muslims. My point is that they need to be told they are not Muslims because of their evil actions. Only then their thinking will begin to change. It is a great tool but only Muslims understand it. Politicians are not going to understand the significance of this tool. No Muslim would like to be called “kafir”. These terrorists are going to hate being called “kafir”.

As you can see, I know how to begin dealing with these people but I need help from politicians and the media to get this strategy put in practice. I can’t do it on my own as an individual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
I agree with you about the fact that if countries where many muslims live are disrupted, then many flee. We can all see that happening and in most cases I do not blame them (though there are some questions in my mind about how there can be such a large group of single young males who are 'fleeing', and in all probability, many may have left families somewhere behind which doesn't seem like a nice thing to do.)
You are correct; many are just economic migrants. The real refugees would be with their families and won’t be able to travel far. This is why Britain is taking refugees only from refugee camps in Turkey in case of Syrian refugees.

From my experience of coming here more than half a century ago, I realized that it wasn’t a matter of just having laws whether Sharia or secular but how they are administered through police and the country’s judicial system. In a corrupt country, having laws of any kind is useless because the police will be corrupt and judiciary as well as members of the government would be corrupt. Here in the West, in civilized countries like US, Canada and Britain, immigrants realize that they will ‘not get away with it’ as they could back home. This helps them to reform. It would be better if they reform in their own countries. To do that, pressure need to be put on governments of those countries to bring in reforms and get rid of corruption.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
Your idea is also interesting .. that the country who creates the refugees is responsible for them. There may be a few problems with that though in that what if there is genuinely just a civil war (and the big gun countries stay right out of it - which frankly I wish they would) and internally many refugees are created in that instance and flee their homes. Who is responsible then for their welfare, etc.? I am not sure how we really determine responsibility either if a bomb that was given to someone in the country but was not actually dropped/detonated by another country, creates 'refugees' - and we may never really even know where that bomb came from the way secrecy is often maintained in these things. And as we all can also see, where do refugees flee to .. perhaps nearby predominantly muslim countries but those get quite overloaded quickly too. No easy answers here - but I like your idea as I think perhaps it would help to keep interference by outside interests more at bay.
There will be very little chance of civil war if the government of that country was not corrupt government. Such governments should be replaced as quickly as possible. Had Assad been removed quickly when it was discovered that he had used chemical weapons civilians, more civilians in Syria would not have been suffering today. Syria is destroyed just to keep him in power.

This has been happening for a long time now. Keeping a dictator (Musharaf) in power, CIA backing training and backing Al-Qaida to fight the Russians, created refugees from that part of the world. Backing the Northern Alliance against the Taliban government of Afghanistan and placing a corrupt leader (Karzai) there had made the matters worst as for as creation of refugees was concerned. Many refugees sought asylum in the West. Saddam Hussain was also backed by the West at one time to fight the Iranians. Keeping him in power then and then trying to get rid of him when he did not “obey” as usual resulted in creation of refugees from Iraq and Kurd areas. Things have been done wrongly at the wrong time simply because of the “national interests”. These “national interests” were short term economic interests; not the long term national interests. Creation of and accepting thousands of refugees into any country is never in the interest of the nation. This is one main reason that Britain decided to get out of the EU because east Europeans were flooding into Britain creating all kind of problems.


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Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
I am determined to keep learning more about Islam though .. I just needed to be sure I understood what I see as top level questions first. I am finding the discussions in other threads here quite fascinating actually. They help me to see the similarities as well as the differences in how we of different faiths think and how we got where we are. I think it behooves everyone to know more about Islam these days so we can all make better decisions in how we conduct our lives and our relationships with people in general.
That is the correct approach.
In order to understand where Islam is coming from, I had to study the OT and the Gospels as well. There is no point in questioning another faith if we do not know much about it. In reality, these faiths are not against each other but each has different path to reach the same goal. I often end up defending Christians and Jews when they are criticized unfairly. But I also sometime criticise them when they attack Islam and Muslims unfairly.

Understanding each other is the best way to come to common terms with each other. It is only when one side begins to think they are the only ones right and all others wrong that humanity begins to be the victim. Many Muslims are also guilty of such attitude. This is often due to the lack of knowledge about their own faith. This is what their faith tells them about good Jews and good Christians.

[3.113-114] They are not all alike; of the followers of the previous revelations, there is an upright party; they recite God's communications in the nighttime and they adore (Him).They believe in God and the last day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and they enjoin one another in hastening to good deeds, and those are among the good.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:57 AM
 
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Here is who I am. I want to understand a bit more about Islam - as I do about a lot of things in this world, including Christian and Jewish faiths, etc. but I am 'spiritual' not religious. I am not here to convert to Islam or any other religion. I am happy to learn what I can even if it doesn't come anywhere near to answering the questions I started out with - but I would hope that I will be better equipped in the end with a sense of who a muslim is, how he or she views themselves .. in the context of the society they live in and as people in general .. what really guides them in life and more importantly about Islam in general.
Regardless of which society a Muslim lives in, there are certain aspects of his life that should not change because of his location. S/he is still required to regard life sacred and as it was given not by that Muslim but God, no Muslim has the right to take it. This is fundamental law in Islam that the terrorists are disregarding when killing other people (even other Muslims). They do it because they are acting either politically in response to someone else's political act or by twisting verses of the Qur'aan to qualify their evil acts. Plus taking verses out of context and completely ignoring some other verses are the main reasons behind their evil acts.

Another reason, as in recent suicide attack in Pakistan that has killed at least 80 people (Muslims), is some Muslims, such as those affiliated to ISIS, are trying to enforce their version of Islam that they think is pure Islam. In their view there is no need to go to any shrine but praying should be direct to God. So they want to force this view on other Muslims. In doing so they forget that, according to the Qur'aan, their should be no compulsion in religion one way or the other. It works both ways, Muslims can't force their religion on others and others can't force their religion on Muslims. Religion must stay as a personal relation between man and God. There is no need for man to act like God and begin killing people who do not worship properly. Those who act like these terrorists are doing are in fact ignorant about certain aspects of Islam despite assuming that they know best about Islam.

Many Muslims have been killed by the terrorists. The Qur'aan is clear on killing believers; the killers will not have salvation. This means they (suicide bombers and murderers) are destined for hell according to the Qur'aan.

Now who is going to tell the terrorists that they are going to hell. I can't do it because I do not have means to get my message to them. Media and politicians have such means but not the knowledge that these terrorists are going to hell according to the Qur'aan. Therefore, neither the media nor the politicians of even Muslim majority countries get this message to the terrorists because they themselves are ignorant about what is said in the Qur'aan. Therefore, political rhetoric is always calling them "Muslim terrorists", "Islamic terrorists" and "Islamists" but never "kafir terrorists". So the wheel keeps rolling on and politicians completely impotent to stop it.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:00 PM
 
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Khalif - Interesting idea again - about calling the terrorists 'kafir' instead of just 'terrorists' or the many other terms currently used. You think they will be upset by being called what people like me are called from time to time when we are not being called infidels? I do wish Islam had nicer names for us .. (perhaps just 'people we don't personally know yet' or even 'non-muslims' would go over better). That might help but nonetheless I heard your suggestion .. I just wish I had an 'in' to the media .. I think some of them might actually think it a good idea too.


I guess the only thing that might worry me is .. if they are upset, what do you think they will do? Some of them are indeed violent people I believe - though I don't blame that on Islam per se. I think that is just an excuse for their behaviour. There are rotten people everywhere and many of them are not muslim so I don't blame all of Islam or muslims for the behaviour of a few. However, if the 'terrorists' lash out at the idea of being thought of as 'kafir' .. what direction do you think their anger might go? As you said, they are not just trying to hurt non-muslims, they are killing muslims too.


I would like to think that would just stop them in their tracks but I am a bit skeptical there, more than you seem to be. I think many are people who are now lost to a life of violence .. they thrive on it. Just as when young people take drugs and that goes on for years until one day they get 'clean' and 'sober' .. but then they find out though they are chronologically age 40 perhaps, they have not ever grown up since they were 12 and began taking drugs .. so they have trouble functioning in the mainstream from that point on.


Terrorists require that people be terrorized by what they do. Why they do it is sometimes anyone's guess mind you. For my part, I am not particularly worried about 'terrorism' to be honest - though I am concerned for others should they be in the eye of a terrorist storm at some time. And I worry about those they are brainwashing - which as we all know is deliberately happening - particularly with children it seems .. muslim children .. the very young .. are being brought into the terrorist mindset at very young ages in some places I hear. I read that Yazidi kids will be used as suicide bombers .. I am not sure what the plan is for the rest of the muslim children .. perhaps they will just fight alongside of the adults in the fields. Nonetheless .. it is sad and I do wish there was a way to stop them. Terrorism is bad for all of us, whatever creed or ethnicity we are.


But, I am going to be honest with you .. my concerns are more along the line of having my freedoms taken away eventually (or those of my children perhaps if I am not still here if/when that happens). And I am not sure I like being seen with disdain because I was not born a muslim either - and I don't care for that feeling. Just as with someone who is born with dark skin or curly hair or who has big feet, I don't consider it a slight against them that they were so 'endowed', and I was not - or vice versa. I do not feel superior to someone either for any such reason. Nor can I help it if I was not born muslim, or that I don't really want to give up what I am to be a muslim even if I can respect Islam and their choices, etc.


I respect people's rights to worship as they please or not to worship at all. I believe in my western system of government and laws - and I respect the right of those elsewhere to have their own too - but I may not want theirs as mine just as they would not want mine as theirs. And as they say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. If I go to Franc, I try to obey their laws and customs and speak their language. If the French come here, I would expect them to try to do the same with our customs, etc. I am not a globalist in the sense that I like different cultures, don't want to see any of them die out and I think that when the melting pot is too deep, many of us will indeed 'melt' and lose who we are. And I am not sure what we all become then. I believe while it is nice to visit (or just learn about) and to try the food and perhaps sing the songs and learn the dances, view the art, etc., perhaps it is sometimes better to keep some things quite separate for the health and happiness of all. Respect all others and who they are and how they choose to live is I think the best way to live for all of us.


I say all that because I DO think muslims are reasonable people - I do think they are capable of being friends and good neighbours - but I worry that perhaps somewhere way down deep they believe because perhaps they have been taught that Islam is the one true religion they might aspire to ensuring we all follow it eventually - and perhaps they think that 'by any means necessary' is not such a bad thing for that reason. I hope you can reassure me about that. Should I be concerned?


Can you tell me where in the Qur'an it says that Allah commands muslims to just treat even infidels (oh I do not like that word - sorry .. it, for some reason, sounds derogatory to my ears) as just 'people', with no religious qualification needed, to be judged and treated only on their own merits, as individuals, and left to do and worship and to have their chosen form of government, etc. as they please as well. If the Qur'an says that, is it a consistent message throughout? I am not an 'unbeliever' .. I am just a believer in different things - and that is how I look at muslims too - they believe differently than I do perhaps but that doesn't make them bad people as long as they don't regard me as a bad person either .. unless I hurt them in some way (which I won't).

Last edited by Aery11; 02-17-2017 at 09:11 PM..
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