U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 02-18-2017, 03:46 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,161 times
Reputation: 90

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post

I say all that because I DO think muslims are reasonable people - I do think they are capable of being friends and good neighbours - but I worry that perhaps somewhere way down deep they believe because perhaps they have been taught that Islam is the one true religion they might aspire to ensuring we all follow it eventually - and perhaps they think that 'by any means necessary' is not such a bad thing for that reason. I hope you can reassure me about that. Should I be concerned?


Can you tell me where in the Qur'an it says that Allah commands muslims to just treat even infidels (oh I do not like that word - sorry .. it, for some reason, sounds derogatory to my ears) as just 'people', with no religious qualification needed, to be judged and treated only on their own merits, as individuals, and left to do and worship and to have their chosen form of government, etc. as they please as well. If the Qur'an says that, is it a consistent message throughout? I am not an 'unbeliever' .. I am just a believer in different things - and that is how I look at muslims too - they believe differently than I do perhaps but that doesn't make them bad people as long as they don't regard me as a bad person either .. unless I hurt them in some way (which I won't).
Muslims surely believe Islam is the true religion, but the majority won't force you to believe.
First, many don't like proselythising, some only know the basics and not always practice (like in other religions), and because it's not something God imposed us to do.
Nobody can forces you to believe because it's God who guides people.

18.29 And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."


10.99 And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?


50.45 We are most knowing of what they say, and you are not over them a tyrant. But remind by the Qur'an whoever fears My threat.


28.56 Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided.


29.46 And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."


88.21-22 So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder. You are not over them a controller.


Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-18-2017, 09:37 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
Khalif - Interesting idea again - about calling the terrorists 'kafir' instead of just 'terrorists' or the many other terms currently used. You think they will be upset by being called what people like me are called from time to time when we are not being called infidels?
Aery 11,

All your questions are valid questions. I am going to try answering each one of them separately.

There is nothing wrong in calling terrorists, “terrorists”. But it is wrong to call them “Islamic” terrorists and “Muslim” terrorists. Calling them terrorists is justified because they are terrorizing people. But it is not justified that they are “Islamic” when they are not keeping to the principles of Islam. It is also not justified that they be called “Muslim” because they are not submitting to God when killing innocent people (both Muslims and non-muslims).

The word “kafir” does not mean the same as “infidel”. The word “infidel” is not from the Qur’aan but the word “kafir” is from the Qur’aan. The word “infidel” goes back to Christianity for someone who was unfaithful to the religion of Christianity. Originally, Muslims were regarded “infidels” by the crusaders. Therefore, I do not like using the word “infidel” for anyone as I do not know who is faithful and who is not a faithful believer. I prefer to use the words “believer” (in God) and non-believer (in God). There are many people who say that they do believe in God but do not do much to prove in their action that they are believers. These are regarded in Islam as hypocrites (munafiqeen). They say one thing and do another to deceive others.

A “kafir” according to the Qur’aan is someone who knows Muslims believe in God and that the Qur’aan is revelation from God but is doing everything possible (whether physically or verbally) to oppose Muslims and the Qur’aan, even declaring war on Muslims in the hope that Muslims will be destroyed and Islam will die down with them. This action is regarded as “covering the truth” (kufr). Someone who covers or hides the truth is called “kafir”. Therefore, being just a non-believer is not sufficient to be labelled “kafir” but action of attacking Muslims must also be part of it for someone to qualify as being “kafir”. Jews and Christians who do believe in God cannot be regarded as “kafir” until they attack Muslims (believers).

Therefore, the terrorists who attack Muslims, Christians and Jews knowing that all these people do believe in God, are “kafir”. Because they are hiding the truth that Muslims are not to kill innocent people, they can justly be called “kafir”, and it will not be wrong according to its definition in the Qur’aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
I do wish Islam had nicer names for us.. (perhaps just 'people we don't personally know yet' or even 'non-muslims' would go over better).
You can be called only non-muslims. “Infidels” is not Islamic word. “Kafir” is reserved for someone who is aware of the truth about what is revealed in the Qur’aan (has heard what is revealed in the Qur’aan) and is still hostile towards Muslims. Hostility has to be part of his/her action to be called “kafir”. The word “kafir” is not to be used for any peaceful non-muslim.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
That might help but nonetheless I heard your suggestion .. I just wish I had an 'in' to the media .. I think some of them might actually think it a good idea too.
It is very difficult for the media gurus to change their minds. They too have been brainwashed (by ignorant about Islam politicians and the terrorists) to believe that a “kafir” is any non-muslim. In reality, they are wrong in their definition of “kafir”. Definition of “kafir” is as I have described here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
I guess the only thing that might worry me is .. if they are upset, what do you think they will do?
They are already doing whatever they can. They are doing it because they are upset that the kuffar (plural of kafir) are attacking Muslim countries. What more can they do? Instead, they will begin to think that they are now kafir and other peaceful Muslims are the real Muslims. This will make them think that they too should be peaceful. It will not upset them but degrade them because of their evil actions of killing peaceful people even though the Qur’aan tells them to live in peace with those who want to live in peace with them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
Some of them are indeed violent people I believe - though I don't blame that on Islam per se. I think that is just an excuse for their behaviour. There are rotten people everywhere and many of them are not muslim so I don't blame all of Islam or muslims for the behaviour of a few. However, if the 'terrorists' lash out at the idea of being thought of as 'kafir' .. what direction do you think their anger might go?
It will force them to think why they are being called “kafir”. One thing is certain, they will realize all the consequences of being “kafir”. The main one is that a kafir will go to hell. They are not going to wish that they should go to hell. At the moment, they think that they, even with a suicide, are going to paradise. Once the thought comes into their mind that they might be going to hell for doing evil acts, they will refrain from killing innocent people. The biggest worry for any Muslim is that he might be going to hell. Going to hell is not a good thought for any Muslim. Those who do evil, do it in ignorance thinking that they are going to paradise or in confidence that they are the true Muslims and will not go to hell. They need to have this knowledge that killing innocent people is the work of a kafir and that they are going to hell because of their action. Calling them “kafir” can only help make them think and reform.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
As you said, they are not just trying to hurt non-muslims, they are killing muslims too.
Yes. It’s because they do not know that the Qur’aan tells them that they will not have salvation if they kill a believer (Qur’aan 4:92).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
I would like to think that would just stop them in their tracks but I am a bit skeptical there, more than you seem to be. I think many are people who are now lost to a life of violence .. they thrive on it. Just as when young people take drugs and that goes on for years until one day they get 'clean' and 'sober' .. but then they find out though they are chronologically age 40 perhaps, they have not ever grown up since they were 12 and began taking drugs .. so they have trouble functioning in the mainstream from that point on.
Yes, just as the 40 is age of enlightenment when people peak in their knowledge, there is always to have knowledge earlier than that. Education is a wonderful thing. Heavens and earth were created through knowledge. Humans were created through knowledge. The whole universe is full of knowledge. It would be human failure if we can’t bring these “kafir terrorists” to realize that what they are doing is wrong. Do you think the threat of death will help reform those who aren’t even afraid of death? Politicians are in an illusion if they think that killing terrorists is going to wipe the terrorists off the face of the earth. Using fire to put out fire is a bad idea. We need to have better ways to put out fire from the terrorists. Threats work on only those people who “think”. Let’s make them “think” first. And that mean using some psychology on them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
Terrorists require that people be terrorized by what they do. Why they do it is sometimes anyone's guess mind you. For my part, I am not particularly worried about 'terrorism' to be honest - though I am concerned for others should they be in the eye of a terrorist storm at some time. And I worry about those they are brainwashing - which as we all know is deliberately happening - particularly with children it seems .. muslim children .. the very young .. are being brought into the terrorist mindset at very young ages in some places I hear. I read that Yazidi kids will be used as suicide bombers .. I am not sure what the plan is for the rest of the muslim children .. perhaps they will just fight alongside of the adults in the fields. Nonetheless .. it is sad and I do wish there was a way to stop them. Terrorism is bad for all of us, whatever creed or ethnicity we are.
Governments in the Middle East and terrorist hot spots must reform their education system. Too much of the education is old, outdated, useless and not fit for the purpose. Western governments must put pressure on the governments of those countries to reform their education system. Religious schools in places like Pakistan are big problem. That kind of education is not helping anyone. The clerics in those schools, who teach Arabic but not the translation of the Qur’aan in full, need to be weeded out of those schools. Hadith books that teach hatred also need to be looked at and edited to conform to the teachings of the Qur’aan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
But, I am going to be honest with you .. my concerns are more along the line of having my freedoms taken away eventually (or those of my children perhaps if I am not still here if/when that happens). And I am not sure I like being seen with disdain because I was not born a muslim either - and I don't care for that feeling. Just as with someone who is born with dark skin or curly hair or who has big feet, I don't consider it a slight against them that they were so 'endowed', and I was not - or vice versa. I do not feel superior to someone either for any such reason. Nor can I help it if I was not born muslim, or that I don't really want to give up what I am to be a muslim even if I can respect Islam and their choices, etc.
Firstly, we all need to be good human being first. In my view, being a good human being is fundamental even to be a Muslim. Second, I too would like to live in peace. Each person has the right to live in peace. I prefer peace in the West than peace in Muslim majority country. West needs to turn its attention towards the corrupt governments in the middle east than just keep talking about the terrorists. Most terrorists are being produced in those countries than in the West. Those being produced in the West are actually being influenced by some cleric in the Middle East. Therefore, all the countries in the Middle East need to reform their education system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
I respect people's rights to worship as they please or not to worship at all. I believe in my western system of government and laws - and I respect the right of those elsewhere to have their own too - but I may not want theirs as mine just as they would not want mine as theirs. And as they say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. If I go to Franc, I try to obey their laws and customs and speak their language. If the French come here, I would expect them to try to do the same with our customs, etc.
I agree in full. I too am not in favour of middle-eastern culture coming to where I live. There are many good things, values and the way we do things here that are helping humanity. We do not want these values being eroded through mixing of undesirable people in our communities. Islam is against forcing one’s religion on the others. For this reason, I am against these people forcing their religion (their type of religion) on me even if they call it Islam. The terrorists too call their religion “Islam” but my Islam is not the same type of Islam as they demand. I have been to Saudi Arabia 5 times and each time I have come across certain Saudis who think that their type of Islam is the only Islam. I don’t agree with them. This has even put me off going there in future.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
I am not a globalist in the sense that I like different cultures, don't want to see any of them die out and I think that when the melting pot is too deep, many of us will indeed 'melt' and lose who we are. And I am not sure what we all become then. I believe while it is nice to visit (or just learn about) and to try the food and perhaps sing the songs and learn the dances, view the art, etc., perhaps it is sometimes better to keep some things quite separate for the health and happiness of all. Respect all others and who they are and how they choose to live is I think the best way to live for all of us.
True! Our colors, languages and cultures are not really for differences but for us to know each other.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
I say all that because I DO think muslims are reasonable people - I do think they are capable of being friends and good neighbours - but I worry that perhaps somewhere way down deep they believe because perhaps they have been taught that Islam is the one true religion they might aspire to ensuring we all follow it eventually - and perhaps they think that 'by any means necessary' is not such a bad thing for that reason. I hope you can reassure me about that. Should I be concerned?
As I have stated before, Islam is simply obeying God. It is a relationship between man and God. It is not something that can be forced upon somebody. If one doesn’t want to accept a religion, s/he will not accept it no matter how hard one tries to make the person accept it. There cannot be any compulsion in religion. This is the view from the Qur’aan (2:256).

However, there are people who think getting converts to Islam is a good act and the Muslim will benefit. It is of benefit only if it is used to make someone knowledgeable and then it is left to him. It is not Islamic to force someone ‘by any means necessary’. That is not what real Islam is about. Even when revelation of the Qur’aan was coming to an end (the last days of Muhammad’s life on earth), a verse was revealed about the polytheists that show us that even then Islam was not about it being forced upon non-muslims.

[9:6] And if one of the polytheists (mushriqeen) seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

This verse is not telling us to force our religion on such a person but just let him hear the words of God and then let him get to his safety even during a war time. This verse is right in the middle of verses often used by the Islam haters to show that the Qur’aan demands killing of infidels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
Can you tell me where in the Qur'an it says that Allah commands muslims to just treat even infidels (oh I do not like that word - sorry .. it, for some reason, sounds derogatory to my ears) as just 'people', with no religious qualification needed, to be judged and treated only on their own merits, as individuals, and left to do and worship and to have their chosen form of government, etc. as they please as well. If the Qur'an says that, is it a consistent message throughout?
The term “infidel” is not Islamic term but it goes back to Christianity. The term “kafir” is in the Qur’aan and reserved for those who are actively hostile towards Islam amd Muslims.

There isn’t even one verse in the Qur’aan that commands us to attack non-muslims first. Attacking first even the non-peaceful non-muslims is totally against the teachings of the Qur’aan.

The Qur’aan was revealed in portions over a period of 22 years. It was not revealed in one go but as the situation arose in the life of those present at the time. So in the whole it is situational but lessons can be learnt from those situations to be used in future too. One example that was illustrated early in the history after the Muslims migration to Madina was that prophet Muhammad had agreed with Jews there that their affairs would be decided upon their own religious laws and they will have the right to keep their religion and carry on praying as they wished. And that’s what he did. Even today, the Sharia Law cannot be forced upon non-muslims even in a majority Muslim country. This is so because there is no compulsion in religion according to the Qur’aan (2:256). Other verses are quoted below:

[5.8] O you who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably; act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and be conscious of Allah; surely Allah is Aware of what you do.

The verse commands us to treat justly even our enemies. This is so because sometimes even our enemies can become our best friends.

[60.7] It may be that Allah will bring about friendship between you and those whom you hold to be your enemies among them; and Allah is Powerful; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

[60.9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
I am not an 'unbeliever' .. I am just a believer in different things - and that is how I look at muslims too - they believe differently than I do perhaps but that doesn't make them bad people as long as they don't regard me as a bad person either .. unless I hurt them in some way (which I won't).
You are the kind of person mentioned in the above two verses (60:8-9) who needs to be treated with kindness and justly by the Muslims. All the fights and wars were against the people who were actually attacking Muslims or were allies against Muslims. The Qur’aan is consistent, if enemy of Muslim does not attack Muslim, Muslims must not attack that enemy first. Even if during the war the enemy decides to have peace, Muslims also must incline to peace. These are limits set in the Qur’aan consistently throughout the Qur’aan.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-18-2017, 09:41 AM
 
806 posts, read 511,333 times
Reputation: 1275
Quick few questions for "pious" Muslims:

- why do you kill innocent animals in the name of sacrifice to your imaginary god? Why are you not honest and say you want to kill them for food and be done with it. Stay honest. If sacrifice is so important, kill your own self for your god.

- why do you insist on coming to West only to demand sharia?

- what rights do non Muslims have in Muslim majority nations.

Thank you
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-18-2017, 01:14 PM
 
2,412 posts, read 1,321,273 times
Reputation: 5744
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Aery 11,

All your questions are valid questions. I am going to try answering each one of them separately.

There is nothing wrong in calling terrorists, “terrorists”. But it is wrong to call them “Islamic” terrorists and “Muslim” terrorists. Calling them terrorists is justified because they are terrorizing people. But it is not justified that they are “Islamic” when they are not keeping to the principles of Islam. It is also not justified that they be called “Muslim” because they are not submitting to God when killing innocent people (both Muslims and non-muslims).

The word “kafir” does not mean the same as “infidel”. The word “infidel” is not from the Qur’aan but the word “kafir” is from the Qur’aan. The word “infidel” goes back to Christianity for someone who was unfaithful to the religion of Christianity. Originally, Muslims were regarded “infidels” by the crusaders. Therefore, I do not like using the word “infidel” for anyone as I do not know who is faithful and who is not a faithful believer. I prefer to use the words “believer” (in God) and non-believer (in God). There are many people who say that they do believe in God but do not do much to prove in their action that they are believers. These are regarded in Islam as hypocrites (munafiqeen). They say one thing and do another to deceive others.

A “kafir” according to the Qur’aan is someone who knows Muslims believe in God and that the Qur’aan is revelation from God but is doing everything possible (whether physically or verbally) to oppose Muslims and the Qur’aan, even declaring war on Muslims in the hope that Muslims will be destroyed and Islam will die down with them. This action is regarded as “covering the truth” (kufr). Someone who covers or hides the truth is called “kafir”. Therefore, being just a non-believer is not sufficient to be labelled “kafir” but action of attacking Muslims must also be part of it for someone to qualify as being “kafir”. Jews and Christians who do believe in God cannot be regarded as “kafir” until they attack Muslims (believers).

Therefore, the terrorists who attack Muslims, Christians and Jews knowing that all these people do believe in God, are “kafir”. Because they are hiding the truth that Muslims are not to kill innocent people, they can justly be called “kafir”, and it will not be wrong according to its definition in the Qur’aan.

You can be called only non-muslims. “Infidels” is not Islamic word. “Kafir” is reserved for someone who is aware of the truth about what is revealed in the Qur’aan (has heard what is revealed in the Qur’aan) and is still hostile towards Muslims. Hostility has to be part of his/her action to be called “kafir”. The word “kafir” is not to be used for any peaceful non-muslim.


It is very difficult for the media gurus to change their minds. They too have been brainwashed (by ignorant about Islam politicians and the terrorists) to believe that a “kafir” is any non-muslim. In reality, they are wrong in their definition of “kafir”. Definition of “kafir” is as I have described here.


They are already doing whatever they can. They are doing it because they are upset that the kuffar (plural of kafir) are attacking Muslim countries. What more can they do? Instead, they will begin to think that they are now kafir and other peaceful Muslims are the real Muslims. This will make them think that they too should be peaceful. It will not upset them but degrade them because of their evil actions of killing peaceful people even though the Qur’aan tells them to live in peace with those who want to live in peace with them.


It will force them to think why they are being called “kafir”. One thing is certain, they will realize all the consequences of being “kafir”. The main one is that a kafir will go to hell. They are not going to wish that they should go to hell. At the moment, they think that they, even with a suicide, are going to paradise. Once the thought comes into their mind that they might be going to hell for doing evil acts, they will refrain from killing innocent people. The biggest worry for any Muslim is that he might be going to hell. Going to hell is not a good thought for any Muslim. Those who do evil, do it in ignorance thinking that they are going to paradise or in confidence that they are the true Muslims and will not go to hell. They need to have this knowledge that killing innocent people is the work of a kafir and that they are going to hell because of their action. Calling them “kafir” can only help make them think and reform.


Yes. It’s because they do not know that the Qur’aan tells them that they will not have salvation if they kill a believer (Qur’aan 4:92).


Yes, just as the 40 is age of enlightenment when people peak in their knowledge, there is always to have knowledge earlier than that. Education is a wonderful thing. Heavens and earth were created through knowledge. Humans were created through knowledge. The whole universe is full of knowledge. It would be human failure if we can’t bring these “kafir terrorists” to realize that what they are doing is wrong. Do you think the threat of death will help reform those who aren’t even afraid of death? Politicians are in an illusion if they think that killing terrorists is going to wipe the terrorists off the face of the earth. Using fire to put out fire is a bad idea. We need to have better ways to put out fire from the terrorists. Threats work on only those people who “think”. Let’s make them “think” first. And that mean using some psychology on them.


Governments in the Middle East and terrorist hot spots must reform their education system. Too much of the education is old, outdated, useless and not fit for the purpose. Western governments must put pressure on the governments of those countries to reform their education system. Religious schools in places like Pakistan are big problem. That kind of education is not helping anyone. The clerics in those schools, who teach Arabic but not the translation of the Qur’aan in full, need to be weeded out of those schools. Hadith books that teach hatred also need to be looked at and edited to conform to the teachings of the Qur’aan.


Firstly, we all need to be good human being first. In my view, being a good human being is fundamental even to be a Muslim. Second, I too would like to live in peace. Each person has the right to live in peace. I prefer peace in the West than peace in Muslim majority country. West needs to turn its attention towards the corrupt governments in the middle east than just keep talking about the terrorists. Most terrorists are being produced in those countries than in the West. Those being produced in the West are actually being influenced by some cleric in the Middle East. Therefore, all the countries in the Middle East need to reform their education system.


I agree in full. I too am not in favour of middle-eastern culture coming to where I live. There are many good things, values and the way we do things here that are helping humanity. We do not want these values being eroded through mixing of undesirable people in our communities. Islam is against forcing one’s religion on the others. For this reason, I am against these people forcing their religion (their type of religion) on me even if they call it Islam. The terrorists too call their religion “Islam” but my Islam is not the same type of Islam as they demand. I have been to Saudi Arabia 5 times and each time I have come across certain Saudis who think that their type of Islam is the only Islam. I don’t agree with them. This has even put me off going there in future.


True! Our colors, languages and cultures are not really for differences but for us to know each other.


As I have stated before, Islam is simply obeying God. It is a relationship between man and God. It is not something that can be forced upon somebody. If one doesn’t want to accept a religion, s/he will not accept it no matter how hard one tries to make the person accept it. There cannot be any compulsion in religion. This is the view from the Qur’aan (2:256).

However, there are people who think getting converts to Islam is a good act and the Muslim will benefit. It is of benefit only if it is used to make someone knowledgeable and then it is left to him. It is not Islamic to force someone ‘by any means necessary’. That is not what real Islam is about. Even when revelation of the Qur’aan was coming to an end (the last days of Muhammad’s life on earth), a verse was revealed about the polytheists that show us that even then Islam was not about it being forced upon non-muslims.

[9:6] And if one of the polytheists (mushriqeen) seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

This verse is not telling us to force our religion on such a person but just let him hear the words of God and then let him get to his safety even during a war time. This verse is right in the middle of verses often used by the Islam haters to show that the Qur’aan demands killing of infidels.

The term “infidel” is not Islamic term but it goes back to Christianity. The term “kafir” is in the Qur’aan and reserved for those who are actively hostile towards Islam amd Muslims.

There isn’t even one verse in the Qur’aan that commands us to attack non-muslims first. Attacking first even the non-peaceful non-muslims is totally against the teachings of the Qur’aan.

The Qur’aan was revealed in portions over a period of 22 years. It was not revealed in one go but as the situation arose in the life of those present at the time. So in the whole it is situational but lessons can be learnt from those situations to be used in future too. One example that was illustrated early in the history after the Muslims migration to Madina was that prophet Muhammad had agreed with Jews there that their affairs would be decided upon their own religious laws and they will have the right to keep their religion and carry on praying as they wished. And that’s what he did. Even today, the Sharia Law cannot be forced upon non-muslims even in a majority Muslim country. This is so because there is no compulsion in religion according to the Qur’aan (2:256). Other verses are quoted below:

[5.8] O you who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably; act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and be conscious of Allah; surely Allah is Aware of what you do.

The verse commands us to treat justly even our enemies. This is so because sometimes even our enemies can become our best friends.

[60.7] It may be that Allah will bring about friendship between you and those whom you hold to be your enemies among them; and Allah is Powerful; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

[60.9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

You are the kind of person mentioned in the above two verses (60:8-9) who needs to be treated with kindness and justly by the Muslims. All the fights and wars were against the people who were actually attacking Muslims or were allies against Muslims. The Qur’aan is consistent, if enemy of Muslim does not attack Muslim, Muslims must not attack that enemy first. Even if during the war the enemy decides to have peace, Muslims also must incline to peace. These are limits set in the Qur’aan consistently throughout the Qur’aan.

Khalif - Once again you have been very helpful. Thank you for taking such time and thought to address my questions so thoroughly. You are indeed a good representative of your faith. If all were like you I suspect we would have few problems in the world today ... of the kind we have been discussing anyway.


I am sorry if I misinterpreted some words - such as infidel. I have indeed been personally told by several muslims that I am regarded as one so I suppose it was understandable but I much prefer your explanation. Should that happen again, maybe I will tell them what you have said. I guess these words (and others) have indeed been misused by both sides, which of course does not help anyone.


Thank you also for explaining so fully about the term 'kafir'. I see your point about turning that on the terrorists and why that might work. Even if we had an 'in' to getting that message out quickly and firmly (probably through the media and governments around the world) I suspect the change you hope for would take quite while to sink in and in the meantime, many may die unfortunately. These are horrible conundrums we face in our time.


I am glad to hear you talk about how the education systems in many muslim countries need reform. I don't know much about them but I would definitely agree with you if what you say is true - and I tend to think it is. Again though that will not be a fast or easy task. Traditions are ingrained. Many clerics are likely to be very upset. We here in the west need to fix our education systems too as I am sure you are aware - for many reasons, even some possibly related to attitudes toward and against Islam and other religions.


Thank you. I shall consider all you have said. You have been very gracious, sir.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-18-2017, 02:54 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
Khalif - Once again you have been very helpful. Thank you for taking such time and thought to address my questions so thoroughly. You are indeed a good representative of your faith. If all were like you I suspect we would have few problems in the world today ... of the kind we have been discussing anyway.
Aery 11,

I am not sure whether I am a good representative of my faith. One of the reasons I am here in this forum is to learn more from other Muslims. I am always looking to know if I am still lacking in knowledge about any aspect of Islam. The one difference between the majority of Muslims and I is that I have concentrated in understanding the Qur'aan more than hadith books. Most Muslims may not look at me as a good representative of our faith.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
I am sorry if I misinterpreted some words - such as infidel. I have indeed been personally told by several muslims that I am regarded as one so I suppose it was understandable but I much prefer your explanation.
If you have not attacked any Muslim, whether physically or verbally, they must not use the word "infidel" or even "kafir" for you. If they do, they are in need of more education about their faith (deen).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
Should that happen again, maybe I will tell them what you have said. I guess these words (and others) have indeed been misused by both sides, which of course does not help anyone.
Yes, there is a lot that we all misused sometimes. We can all have more education about each other in the best interests of humanity and peace on earth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
Thank you also for explaining so fully about the term 'kafir'. I see your point about turning that on the terrorists and why that might work. Even if we had an 'in' to getting that message out quickly and firmly (probably through the media and governments around the world) I suspect the change you hope for would take quite while to sink in and in the meantime, many may die unfortunately. These are horrible conundrums we face in our time.
Although these things will take time to improve, truth will always establish itself sooner or later. They will all come to the point that I have suggested. It's only a matter of time.

In fact I had suggested this idea a few years back in another forum. It did work in one aspect but I don't know how (they stopped calling them "Islamic terrorists"). Then they invented other similar terms. I hope one of the western leaders will get the idea of calling them "kafir" and that's when the penny will drop (others will learn about the idea).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
I am glad to hear you talk about how the education systems in many muslim countries need reform. I don't know much about them but I would definitely agree with you if what you say is true - and I tend to think it is. Again though that will not be a fast or easy task. Traditions are ingrained. Many clerics are likely to be very upset. We here in the west need to fix our education systems too as I am sure you are aware - for many reasons, even some possibly related to attitudes toward and against Islam and other religions.
I am in a position to know how the the education systems work both in the Muslim majority countries and in the west (Britain). I prefer the education system in Britain.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
Thank you. I shall consider all you have said. You have been very gracious, sir.
You are welcome! It has been so nice 'talking' to you. I wish you all the best in your life.

Regards

Khalif
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2017, 04:22 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,161 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by westcoast_CA View Post
Quick few questions for "pious" Muslims:

- why do you kill innocent animals in the name of sacrifice to your imaginary god? Why are you not honest and say you want to kill them for food and be done with it. Stay honest. If sacrifice is so important, kill your own self for your god.

- why do you insist on coming to West only to demand sharia?

- what rights do non Muslims have in Muslim majority nations.

Thank you
1.The sacrifice is a way to remember the submission of Abraham, at the end it's an animal that we eat like you said.
By the way we can also do that for needy people, for exemple you can pay the price of the animal for a familly who usually is poor/can't eat meat (palestinians, syrians, nigerians etc ..there's many charity associations who do it)
Also a part of the animal is for the neighboors, the poors, familly, etc


2.Who insist for Sharia in the west ? Small groups, maybe ?
We can't impose the sharia in a non-muslim country, even in muslim countries the sharia is not always applied, it's most of time western laws (from colonialism) and sharia laws.
Even the countries who haven't been colonised like Turkey.

3.Muslims countries are differents from each others, so we can't say who have which right.
It's like if i ask a christian american what are the rights of muslims in Congo. How can he knows ?
Muslims don't know exactly what's going on in details in other countries.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2017, 11:36 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by westcoast_CA View Post
Quick few questions for "pious" Muslims:

- why do you kill innocent animals in the name of sacrifice to your imaginary god?
Who told you that we sacrifice animals for our imaginary god? Our God does not need meat or the blood of animals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westcoast_CA View Post
Why are you not honest and say you want to kill them for food and be done with it.
We do not "kill" them. Killing is done with a gun or blow. By halal dhubiḥa method, most of the blood, unfit for eating or drinking by humans, is drained out of animal in the quickest way possible. Then the meat is fit for eating and that's what is done with each sacrificed animal. The only difference between any meat for sale and sacrificial meat is that you can't sell or buy sacrificial meat. A large part of it has to be given to needy and neighbors rather than all kept for yourself or given to some imaginary god for him to eat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westcoast_CA View Post
Stay honest. If sacrifice is so important, kill your own self for your god.
Shhhhhh...A suicide bomber might be reading it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westcoast_CA View Post
- why do you insist on coming to West only to demand sharia?
Wrong! Most come here for money just as the West goes to the Middle East for oil or to establish democracy there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westcoast_CA View Post
- what rights do non Muslims have in Muslim majority nations.

Thank you
All rights within the laws of the country. Would you like separate rights for the non-muslims in the majority Muslim countries?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-22-2017, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,005 posts, read 54,508,374 times
Reputation: 66354
I like the term "deviant" Islam. That makes more sense than "radical".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-22-2017, 08:15 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 768,938 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
I like the term "deviant" Islam. That makes more sense than "radical".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-23-2017, 01:08 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
I like the term "deviant" Islam. That makes more sense than "radical".
I do believe that there are deviant persons in Muslim communities but there is no such thing as "deviant Islam" or "radical Islam".

There is only "Islam" which means action of submitting to the Will of God (Submission).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top