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Old 03-20-2017, 10:34 PM
 
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We have finished discussing jihad
Because you want to drop and cancel the obligation of jihad in the cause of Allah
This is not the position of Muslim jurists
The other verse is from the surah of repentance
Is it offensive or defensive
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:17 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
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The proper way to approach the point of 'jihad' [JHD] is as follows;

1. In the Quran the term 'jihad' [root JHD] is used to represent struggle, strive, determined, aggressive.
That mean whatever a person [believer] do and act, one must put in extra strong effort to achieve greater results. That is the basic meaning of jihad i.e. 'use extra strong effort' [mentally and physically] to do any act of Islam.

2. The point is, acts can be good or evil.
I had claimed the Quran contain good and evil laden elements.
Therefore a believer can jihad [strive] for good and/or evil elements.

3. Some evil prone Muslims [20%] strive for the good and also the evil elements in the Quran, like killing non-Muslims based on their own interpretations which is correct and no one can decide who is right or wrong.

4. Along with natural tendencies, some Muslims [long ago] labelled some of their deeds involving wars and killings as a holy war they called 'jihad.' Because it became a popular term 'jihad = holy war' it is recognized and entered into the Arabic dictionary. This is why I identify it as Jihad (Arabic) = holy war. This has nothing to do with the Quran because in the Quran, Allah did not approve of such a specific meaning [war] for 'jihad [JHD].

5. Because the Muslims [some] were using this term 'jihad (Arabic) = holy war' so commonly, it is also recognized by the English Dictionary, thus jihad [English].

6. I had posted earlier, regarding the term 'jihad' we must have three views;
a. Jihad [Quran] = strive, struggle
b. Jihad [Arabic] = holy war
c. Jihad [English] = holy war.
7. Your confusion [never ending] with Khalif is because both of you are talking 'apples' against 'oranges'. Khalif is refering to "Jihad [Quran] = strive, struggle" while you are talking in another perspective, i.e. Jihad [English] = holy war. Both are like oil and water. I recommend Khalif qualify his term as 'jihad [Quran]' and you 'Jihad [English]' or Jihad [Arabic], then we are getting somewhere.

8. The question is, does the Quran contribute to the terrible evils done on Muslims? The answer is yes. That is when the 20% evil prone Muslims are triggered by the evil laden elements in the Quran. That is the cause of the evils from SOME Muslims.
Jihad [Quran] is only the extra effort [strive] Muslims are exhorted to put in when doing any act [good or evil] in the cause of Allah, thus including the evil acts.

9. Therefore to be meaningful in communication re the term 'jihad' one must always introduce the three different views, i.e.
a. Jihad [Quran] = strive, struggle
b. Jihad [Arabic] = holy war
c. Jihad [English] = holy war.
otherwise, both can talk till the cow come home and nothing is achieved.
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:21 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
We have finished discussing jihad
Because you want to drop and cancel the obligation of jihad in the cause of Allah
This is not the position of Muslim jurists
The other verse is from the surah of repentance
Is it offensive or defensive
You are now running away from the word "jihad" that isn't even mentioned in the verse but you still had claimed it to be "jihad".
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:08 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The proper way to approach the point of 'jihad' [JHD] is as follows;

1. In the Quran the term 'jihad' [root JHD] is used to represent struggle, strive, determined, aggressive.
That mean whatever a person [believer] do and act, one must put in extra strong effort to achieve greater results. That is the basic meaning of jihad i.e. 'use extra strong effort' [mentally and physically] to do any act of Islam.

2. The point is, acts can be good or evil.
I had claimed the Quran contain good and evil laden elements.
Therefore a believer can jihad [strive] for good and/or evil elements.

3. Some evil prone Muslims [20%] strive for the good and also the evil elements in the Quran, like killing non-Muslims based on their own interpretations which is correct and no one can decide who is right or wrong.

4. Along with natural tendencies, some Muslims [long ago] labelled some of their deeds involving wars and killings as a holy war they called 'jihad.' Because it became a popular term 'jihad = holy war' it is recognized and entered into the Arabic dictionary. This is why I identify it as Jihad (Arabic) = holy war. This has nothing to do with the Quran because in the Quran, Allah did not approve of such a specific meaning [war] for 'jihad [JHD].

5. Because the Muslims [some] were using this term 'jihad (Arabic) = holy war' so commonly, it is also recognized by the English Dictionary, thus jihad [English].

6. I had posted earlier, regarding the term 'jihad' we must have three views;
a. Jihad [Quran] = strive, struggle
b. Jihad [Arabic] = holy war
c. Jihad [English] = holy war.
7. Your confusion [never ending] with Khalif is because both of you are talking 'apples' against 'oranges'. Khalif is refering to "Jihad [Quran] = strive, struggle" while you are talking in another perspective, i.e. Jihad [English] = holy war. Both are like oil and water. I recommend Khalif qualify his term as 'jihad [Quran]' and you 'Jihad [English]' or Jihad [Arabic], then we are getting somewhere.

8. The question is, does the Quran contribute to the terrible evils done on Muslims? The answer is yes. That is when the 20% evil prone Muslims are triggered by the evil laden elements in the Quran. That is the cause of the evils from SOME Muslims.
Jihad [Quran] is only the extra effort [strive] Muslims are exhorted to put in when doing any act [good or evil] in the cause of Allah, thus including the evil acts.

9. Therefore to be meaningful in communication re the term 'jihad' one must always introduce the three different views, i.e.
a. Jihad [Quran] = strive, struggle
b. Jihad [Arabic] = holy war
c. Jihad [English] = holy war.
otherwise, both can talk till the cow come home and nothing is achieved.
Continuum,

I believe I had responded to one of your similar posts some time in the past.

Please note (this is important) that the word "jihad" in the Arabic Qur'aan is used in only 4 verses of the Qur'aan. In each of those verses, it means peaceful struggle in terms of striving under testing conditions. It is known as personal jihad.

So called holy war whether in English or in Arabic is not "jihad" but "jahad". The difference is in pronunciation. Therefore, "jihad" is mental and self striving such as standing firm in your deen under the fear of losing your home, wealth or trade and "jahad" is physical striving in a defensive war.

I wanted to know if the non-Muslim pundits in this forum do realize their ignorance when they say "jihad" instead of "jahad" or "jahid" for striving in a physical war.

The word "jihad" is noun and is not physical fighting against kuffar but personal struggle to survive and struggle within the deen under trying conditions. It is stated in 4 verses of the Qur'aan. None of them is about fighting, war or attacking anyone but a peaceful self struggle.

"Jahad" and "jahid" are the words used in case of striving in a war situation. These words are used as verb (struggling in a war situation rather than struggle of everyday life to stay within one's deen under difficulties). Here are some examples:

[3.142] Do you think that you will enter the garden while Allah has not yet known those who strive hard ("jahad") from among you, and (He has not) known the patient.

[5.35] O you who believe! Be conscious of Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard ("jahad") in His way that you may be successful.

[9.41] Go forth light and heavy, and strive hard ("jahid") in Allah's way with your property and your persons; this is better for you, if you know.


The above three verses are struggling and striving in defense during a physical war situation. In this situation the word "jihad" is not used.

[9.24] Say: If your fathers and your sons and your brethren and your mates and your kinsfolk and property which you have acquired, and the slackness of trade which you fear and dwellings which you like, are dearer to you than Allah and His messenger and striving ("jihad") in His way, then wait till Allah brings about His command: and Allah does not guide the transgressing people.

The word used in this verse is "jihad". It is not about fighting in a war but general everyday struggle to stay within the deen under trying conditions when there is danger of you losing your wealth and properties unless you give up your deen.

[60.1] O you who believe! Do not take My enemy and your enemy for friends: would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the truth, driving out the messenger and yourselves because you believe in Allah, your Lord? If you go forth struggling hard ("jihad") in My path and seeking My pleasure, would you manifest love to them? And I know what you conceal and what you manifest; and whoever of you does this, he indeed has gone astray from the straight path.

The struggling hard mentioned in the above verse is personal struggle to stay in Allah's deen (Islam). It is not about any physical war/fighting against kuffar but peaceful struggle.

The problem with most non-Muslims, politicians and the media is that they do not know the difference between the Arabic words in the Qur'aan "jahad" and "jihad" and in what context each is used. So they use the word "jihad" in ignorance when they should be using the word "jahad" or "jahid".

They can't use "jahad" now because they will have great problem in getting "jihad" out of the minds of the masses they have brainwashed already and put the truth in their minds now.

I do admit though that even many Muslims too believe now that "jihad" is physical war against kuffar. This is so because they do not understand where "jihad" is used in the Qur'aan. It's quite likely that they do not read the Qur'aan and rely only on what other ignorant Muslims have told them. This blindness of such Muslims will carry on until Muslims study the Qur'aan properly for themselves.
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Old 03-21-2017, 05:34 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,

I believe I had responded to one of your similar posts some time in the past.

Please note (this is important) that the word "jihad" in the Arabic Qur'aan is used in only 4 verses of the Qur'aan. In each of those verses, it means peaceful struggle in terms of striving under testing conditions. It is known as personal jihad.

So called holy war whether in English or in Arabic is not "jihad" but "jahad". The difference is in pronunciation. Therefore, "jihad" is mental and self striving such as standing firm in your deen under the fear of losing your home, wealth or trade and "jahad" is physical striving in a defensive war.

I wanted to know if the non-Muslim pundits in this forum do realize their ignorance when they say "jihad" instead of "jahad" or "jahid" for striving in a physical war.

The word "jihad" is noun and is not physical fighting against kuffar but personal struggle to survive and struggle within the deen under trying conditions. It is stated in 4 verses of the Qur'aan. None of them is about fighting, war or attacking anyone but a peaceful self struggle.

"Jahad" and "jahid" are the words used in case of striving in a war situation. These words are used as verb (struggling in a war situation rather than struggle of everyday life to stay within one's deen under difficulties). Here are some examples:

...


I do admit though that even many Muslims too believe now that "jihad" is physical war against kuffar. This is so because they do not understand where "jihad" is used in the Qur'aan. It's quite likely that they do not read the Qur'aan and rely only on what other ignorant Muslims have told them. This blindness of such Muslims will carry on until Muslims study the Qur'aan properly for themselves.
Mine is a different view from yours.

If you at look it from the linguistic, semantics and morphological structures, [see listing below] you will note the following;

The root involved is J-H-D to cover 'struggle, striving, earnest, and the likes'.

In Arabic there are only Verbs, Nouns and Particles.

All the words below support the root J-H-D in its various forms.

Why 'jihad' is used as the general term is because it is a verbal noun which is most appropriate and convenient to represent the various forms of the root JHD rather than using all the various terms of the forms.

Thus the Ahadith followers use the term 'jihad' as a war-cry word to motivate SOME Muslims to war against the infidels. They are not too concern about the detail forms in the Quran for this matter. This is how the term 'jihad = holy war' became popularly used and was recognized and entered into the Arabic dictionary.
Actually this would be a good case to condemn the Ahadith compilers corrupting the texts and words of Allah [BDL: badal, HRF: yuḥarrifūna ?]

This was followed up by the English dictionaries. You cannot blame the politicians, etc, because the word 'jihad' is already in the English dictionary and represent the actions of SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone. So the word 'jihad[English]' was not invented by politicians rather its origin was adopted from the Arabic Dictionaries.

If we review 'jihad' in 9:24, 22:78, 60:1 they are linked to striving against the infidels.

The main point is to focus on the root J-H-D and some of the words therefrom like 29:6 are related to the spiritual struggle of the individual as a perfect verb, while other words under JHD are for other purpose but mainly the JHD words are used to represent striving against infidels in various forms.

Because the JHD words are used for various purposes in the Quran, we cannot assert that is it used to represent 'holy war' in the Quran [or in a Quranic Dictionary] as that would be semantically wrong.

But it is correct that 'jihad = holy war' as in an Arabic Dictionary and English Dictionary. In English the verb for 'jihad' would be "jihading" [?] or just 'jihad' and 'jihadists' for those who wage jihad [noun].

Suggest you review your interpretation from a linguistic perspective as represented in the common understanding of Quranic Language, Arabic [MSA] and English.

JĀHADA—verb III perfect—to struggle, strive
2:218 those who emigrated and struggled in the way
3:142 God knows not those who struggled among
8:72 struggled with their wealth and their lives in
8:74 who believed and emigrated and struggled in
8:75 afterwards, and emigrated and struggled
9:16 be left before God knows those who struggled
9:19 in God and the Last Day and struggled in the
9:20 believed and emigrated and struggled in the
9:88 with him struggled with their wealth and their
16:110 persecuted and, again, struggled and endured
29:6 struggled, he struggles only for himself. Then
29:8 if they struggled with thee that thou ascribest
29:69 who struggled for Us, We will truly guide them
31:15 both struggled with thee that thou ascribest
49:15 they were not in doubt and they struggled with

verb III imperfect (yujihidu) —to struggle
5:54 They struggle in the way of God and they fear
9:44 they struggle with their wealth and their lives.
9:81 of God and they disliked struggling with their
29:6 struggled, he struggles only for himself. Then
61:11 in God and His Messenger and struggle in the


verb III imperative (jahid)—struggle

5:35 look for an approach to Him and struggle in
9:41 Move forward light and heavy, and struggle
9:73 O Prophet! Struggle with the ones who are
9:86 Believe in God and struggle along with His
22:78 And struggle for God in a true struggling. He
25:52 the ones who are ungrateful and struggle
66:9 O Prophet! Struggle against the ones who are

verb III verbal noun (jihad)—struggling
9:24 than God and His Messenger and struggling in
22:78 And struggle for God in a true struggling. He
25:52 against them thereby with a great struggle
60:1 If you had been going forth struggling in My

verb III active participle (mujahid)— one who struggles
4:95 the ones who struggle in the way of God with
4:95 God gave advantage to the ones who struggle
4:95 God gave advantage to the ones who struggle
47:31 you until We know the ones who struggle

JAHADA—verb I perfect—to be earnest
verb I verbal noun (jahd)—most earnest
5:53 the most earnest of sworn oaths—that they
6:109 And they swear by God the most earnest
16:38 swore by God their most earnest oaths: God
24:53 And they swore by God their most earnest
35:42 they swore by God the most earnest oaths, that

JUHD—masculine noun—striving
9:79 those who find not but their striving to give

Last edited by Continuum; 03-21-2017 at 05:43 AM..
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:28 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Mine is a different view from yours.

If you at look it from the linguistic, semantics and morphological structures, [see listing below] you will note the following;

The root involved is J-H-D to cover 'struggle, striving, earnest, and the likes'.

In Arabic there are only Verbs, Nouns and Particles.

All the words below support the root J-H-D in its various forms.

Why 'jihad' is used as the general term is because it is a verbal noun which is most appropriate and convenient to represent the various forms of the root JHD rather than using all the various terms of the forms.
The point made by some non-Muslim posters in this forum and in general media and political mantra is that "jihad" is ALWAYS fighting and attack by Muslims on non-Muslims. This is why terrorists who kill innocent people (even Muslims) are called "jihadists". I am trying to explain that the term "jihad" and "jihadists" are the wrong terms for terrorists according to the Qur'aan.

The term "jihad" (noun) is used in the Qur'aan only for a peaceful struggle in the way of Allah. It is never used for fighting, killing or waging war on kuffar. And this is the point I have always made in this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Thus the Ahadith followers use the term 'jihad' as a war-cry word to motivate SOME Muslims to war against the infidels. They are not too concern about the detail forms in the Quran for this matter. This is how the term 'jihad = holy war' became popularly used and was recognized and entered into the Arabic dictionary.
I am not concerned with Arabic/English dictionaries or the ahadith to understand Islam. My understanding of Islam comes from the Qur'aan only. And in the Qur'aan, "jihad" is never war on kuffar or anyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Actually this would be a good case to condemn the Ahadith compilers corrupting the texts and words of Allah [BDL: badal, HRF: yuḥarrifūna ?]
Yes. They can't use the word "jihad" for anything else than it is used in the Qur'aan for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This was followed up by the English dictionaries. You cannot blame the politicians, etc, because the word 'jihad' is already in the English dictionary and represent the actions of SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone.
Then not only the ahadith compilers have corrupted the word "jihad" but also those who have prepared the English dictionaries. The ahadith compilers are not going to change their hadith books in their stubbornness but the English dictionaries do change once the mistake surfaces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
So the word 'jihad[English]' was not invented by politicians rather its origin was adopted from the Arabic Dictionaries.
That mean blind follow other blind. Are we going to pass on this blindness to the next generations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If we review 'jihad' in 9:24, 22:78, 60:1 they are linked to striving against the infidels.
It is never "against" the infidels but is struggle to remain steadfast in their deen due to intense pressure from infidels to make them give up their deen. As for the verses 9:24, 22:78 and 60:1 with the word "jihad" in them:

[9:24] Say: If your fathers, and your sons, and your brethren, and your wives, and your tribe, and the wealth ye have acquired, and merchandise for which ye fear that there will be no sale, and dwellings ye desire are dearer to you than Allah and His messenger and striving ("jihad") in His way: then wait till Allah bringeth His command to pass. Allah guideth not wrong doing folk.

The verse has nothing to do "against" the infidels but waiting and striving in Allah's way in Islam . No mention of attacking the infidels in "jihad"!

[22.77] O you who believe! bow down and prostrate yourselves and serve your Lord, and do.good that you may succeed.

[22.78] And strive hard ("jahid") in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving ("jihad") is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

This verse too has nothing to do with war on infidels or doing something "against" the infidels but about doing struggling/striving ("jahid") in struggle/striving ("jihad") in our religion (deen) to worship and hold fast by Allah in Islam by trusting Him as our Guardian.

[60.1] O you who believe! Do not take My enemy and your enemy for friends: would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the truth, driving out the messenger and yourselves because you believe in Allah, your Lord? If you go forth struggling hard ("jihad") in My path and seeking My pleasure, would you manifest love to them? And I know what you conceal and what you manifest; and whoever of you does this, he indeed has gone astray from the straight path.

So the messenger and Muslims have been expelled from their homes in Mecca and they have migrated to Madina. Some miss their infidel friends in Mecca when it was those infidels who had forced them to leave Mecca because of them believing in One God. Leaving their homes and migrating was "jihad" ("struggle") to keep their deen. Again, nothing to do with war by Muslims "against" infidels but struggle ("jihad") in the way of Allah (Islam/His path).

As you can see, these verses with the word "jihad" in them have nothing to do with attacking anyone of any religion or of no religion. Each time it is struggle of Muslims to stay in their deen when under immense pressure from kuffar on Muslims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The main point is to focus on the root J-H-D and some of the words therefrom like 29:6 are related to the spiritual struggle of the individual as a perfect verb, while other words under JHD are for other purpose but mainly the JHD words are used to represent striving against infidels in various forms.
So if it is spiritual struggling in 29:6 with the words "jahad" (verb) and "jahid" (verb) then why can't these words in the other verses be spiritual struggling or even defensive struggling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Because the JHD words are used for various purposes in the Quran, we cannot assert that is it used to represent 'holy war' in the Quran [or in a Quranic Dictionary] as that would be semantically wrong.
Correct! According to the Qur'aan, "jihad" is not holy or unholy war but spiritual struggle and peaceful self-striving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But it is correct that 'jihad = holy war' as in an Arabic Dictionary and English Dictionary. In English the verb for 'jihad' would be "jihading" [?] or just 'jihad' and 'jihadists' for those who wage jihad [noun].
Islam is not described in English/Arabic dictionaries or even in hadith books but only in the Qur'aan. If they call the "jihadists" "Islamists" and Islam is only in the Qur'aan, then they better align their definitions to the definitions in the Qur'aan or else they have no right to use the word "Islam" falsely based on books other than the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Suggest you review your interpretation from a linguistic perspective as represented in the common understanding of Quranic Language, Arabic [MSA] and English.

JĀHADA—verb III perfect—to struggle, strive
2:218 those who emigrated and struggled in the way
3:142 God knows not those who struggled among
8:72 struggled with their wealth and their lives in
8:74 who believed and emigrated and struggled in
8:75 afterwards, and emigrated and struggled
9:16 be left before God knows those who struggled
9:19 in God and the Last Day and struggled in the
9:20 believed and emigrated and struggled in the
9:88 with him struggled with their wealth and their
16:110 persecuted and, again, struggled and endured
29:6 struggled, he struggles only for himself. Then
29:8 if they struggled with thee that thou ascribest
29:69 who struggled for Us, We will truly guide them
31:15 both struggled with thee that thou ascribest
49:15 they were not in doubt and they struggled with

verb III imperfect (yujihidu) —to struggle
5:54 They struggle in the way of God and they fear
9:44 they struggle with their wealth and their lives.
9:81 of God and they disliked struggling with their
29:6 struggled, he struggles only for himself. Then
61:11 in God and His Messenger and struggle in the


verb III imperative (jahid)—struggle

5:35 look for an approach to Him and struggle in
9:41 Move forward light and heavy, and struggle
9:73 O Prophet! Struggle with the ones who are
9:86 Believe in God and struggle along with His
22:78 And struggle for God in a true struggling. He
25:52 the ones who are ungrateful and struggle
66:9 O Prophet! Struggle against the ones who are

verb III verbal noun (jihad)—struggling
9:24 than God and His Messenger and struggling in
22:78 And struggle for God in a true struggling. He
25:52 against them thereby with a great struggle
60:1 If you had been going forth struggling in My

verb III active participle (mujahid)— one who struggles
4:95 the ones who struggle in the way of God with
4:95 God gave advantage to the ones who struggle
4:95 God gave advantage to the ones who struggle
47:31 you until We know the ones who struggle

JAHADA—verb I perfect—to be earnest
verb I verbal noun (jahd)—most earnest
5:53 the most earnest of sworn oaths—that they
6:109 And they swear by God the most earnest
16:38 swore by God their most earnest oaths: God
24:53 And they swore by God their most earnest
35:42 they swore by God the most earnest oaths, that

JUHD—masculine noun—striving
9:79 those who find not but their striving to give
I have already gone through the lot a long time ago in my search for understanding of the word "jihad" in the Qur'aan. As you have stated here, there are only 4 verses in the Qur'aan with the word "jihad". You will find that none of those verses are about attacking peaceful people of any religion or of no religion. Therefore, "jihad" is never used in the Qur'aan as either holy or unholy war by Muslims but only as a spiritual struggle/striving. The only word used in case of striving in a defensive war is "jahad" as verb. This striving as verb is also used in case of struggling spiritually as you have pointed out in your post.

There isn't even one verse in the Qur'aan in which someone killing people indiscriminately is described as "jihadist", "Islamist" or even "Mujahid". A Mujahid is always a defender and never an offender.

The Qur'aan does not tell Muslims to attack peaceful people just because they are not believers. If an unbeliever offers peace to Muslims, it must be accepted. Muslims can't refuse offer of peace just because it comes from unbelievers.
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:00 PM
 
4,412 posts, read 1,640,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
I drink beer
But I do not drink Paul camel
Because it produces stupid

----------------
Not sure about "Paul Camel" but what does this has to do Islam Q/A?
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The point made by some non-Muslim posters in this forum and in general media and political mantra is that "jihad" is ALWAYS fighting and attack by Muslims on non-Muslims. This is why terrorists who kill innocent people (even Muslims) are called "jihadists". I am trying to explain that the term "jihad" and "jihadists" are the wrong terms for terrorists according to the Qur'aan.

The term "jihad" (noun) is used in the Qur'aan only for a peaceful struggle in the way of Allah. It is never used for fighting, killing or waging war on kuffar. And this is the point I have always made in this forum.
Those who use 'jihad [Arabic or English] = holy war' specifically are not semantically wrong at all because this meaning is in their dictionaries and represented by the relevant real actions by SOME Muslims. Those SOME Muslims doing jihad [English] are correctly named as 'terrorists' because they commit and spread terror. These are all true in accordance to the Arabic and English dictionaries.

But as I had said, in the Quranic language all the 'jihad' words and other related JHD words are NOT specifically attributed to holy war. However many of the verses with the term 'jihad' and other JHD related words are somehow linked to the kuffar in various conditions including warring affairs.
Since a Muslims must 'jihad' strive, i.e. put in extra effort for the cause of Allah [spiritual, politics, etc.], therefore if the cause include war [politics], Muslims must put in extra effort in war as well.


Quote:
I am not concerned with Arabic/English dictionaries or the ahadith to understand Islam. My understanding of Islam comes from the Qur'aan only. And in the Qur'aan, "jihad" is never war on kuffar or anyone else.
You may be only thinking of your own personal views but for me there are 1.5 billion Muslims with a range of different views and Allah will never appear to decide who is right or wrong. So these different views [good, bad and evil] will exists as long as there are humans and Muslims.

The question of whether the warring [not the jihad] is offensive or defensive is contentions and subject to interpretations. You have insisted all warring affairs in the Quran are defensive only, but my view is the warring intents include offensive and defensive intentions. We have gone thru this issue before and I do not want to go thru them again at present. [no time]

Quote:
Yes. They can't use the word "jihad" for anything else than it is used in the Qur'aan for.
They can use "jihad" i.e. striving, struggle and the likes for anything but if they relate to Quran-Only, then 'jihad' cannot specifically meant 'holy war'.

Quote:
Then not only the ahadith compilers have corrupted the word "jihad" but also those who have prepared the English dictionaries. The ahadith compilers are not going to change their hadith books in their stubbornness but the English dictionaries do change once the mistake surfaces.
You need to understand how dictionaries are compiled.
Dictionaries don't give a damn about the element of truth or reality.
As long as there are sufficient numbers of people using a word, it will be included in a dictionary.

Note the word 'Islamophobia' which from intellectually & philosophically perspective should be regarded as a very stupid word and those who use such a term insults their own intelligence. Despite the stupidity element, the word 'Islamophobia' is included in the English dictionary.
So there should be no issue with 'jihad = holy war' in the Arabic and English dictionaries.


Quote:
That mean blind follow other blind. Are we going to pass on this blindness to the next generations?
Nah, I am sure people of average intelligence can understand the limitations of the dictionaries and seek the truth from other wisdom philosophically.

Quote:
It is never "against" the infidels but is struggle to remain steadfast in their deen due to intense pressure from infidels to make them give up their deen. As for the verses 9:24, 22:78 and 60:1 with the word "jihad" in them:

<snipped>

As you can see, these verses with the word "jihad" in them have nothing to do with attacking anyone of any religion or of no religion. Each time it is struggle of Muslims to stay in their deen when under immense pressure from kuffar on Muslims.
As I mentioned we have different views on these verses. When we read the verses in the context of the whole chapter, say chapter 9 and with the whole Quran, a different perspective will be revealed. As I had stated I don't want to go into the details at present. [no time].

Quote:
So if it is spiritual struggling in 29:6 with the words "jahad" (verb) and "jahid" (verb) then why can't these words in the other verses be spiritual struggling or even defensive struggling?
As above, we need to read all the words related to J-H-D and understand their context in the background.

Quote:
Correct! According to the Qur'aan, "jihad" is not holy or unholy war but spiritual struggle and peaceful self-striving.
Objectively, 'jihad' used in the Quran is merely 'striving,' struggle and the likes. "Jihad" [striving for their wrongs] is even used for the non-Muslims. So one cannot claim 'jihad' refer to only spiritual struggle and peace self-striving.

Quote:
Islam is not described in English/Arabic dictionaries or even in hadith books but only in the Qur'aan. If they call the "jihadists" "Islamists" and Islam is only in the Qur'aan, then they better align their definitions to the definitions in the Qur'aan or else they have no right to use the word "Islam" falsely based on books other than the Qur'aan.
There is definitely a word "Islam" in the English/Arabic dictionaries.

I view there are a few grades of Islam, i.e.
1. Pure Islam = Quran-Only
2. Pseudo-Islam [2nd grade] = Quran + Ahadith
3. 3rd grade Islam = Quran + Ahadith + others [Ahamadiya, sufism, etc.]

If you insists all Muslims must adopt 'Pure Islam' then you will have to convince the 99% of Muslims to Quran-Only Islam. [In principle and objectively, I agree "Islam" should be based on Quran-Only].

Quote:
I have already gone through the lot a long time ago in my search for understanding of the word "jihad" in the Qur'aan. As you have stated here, there are only 4 verses in the Qur'aan with the word "jihad". You will find that none of those verses are about attacking peaceful people of any religion or of no religion. Therefore, "jihad" is never used in the Qur'aan as either holy or unholy war by Muslims but only as a spiritual struggle/striving. The only word used in case of striving in a defensive war is "jahad" as verb. This striving as verb is also used in case of struggling spiritually as you have pointed out in your post.

There isn't even one verse in the Qur'aan in which someone killing people indiscriminately is described as "jihadist", "Islamist" or even "Mujahid". A Mujahid is always a defender and never an offender.

The Qur'aan does not tell Muslims to attack peaceful people just because they are not believers. If an unbeliever offers peace to Muslims, it must be accepted. Muslims can't refuse offer of peace just because it comes from unbelievers.
The point is the word 'jihad' in the Quran is merely a word used to represent 'striving' struggle, and the likes, to mean putting extra effort in any actions. It is common word that is even used in the Quran to refer to the kuffar in applying extra effort [jihad] to their own actions which is evil in the eyes of Allah. So 'jihad' cannot be exclusively meant 'holy war' or killing of non-Muslims in the Quran-ONLY.

But in reality, there are SOME evil prone Muslims [20%] who warred against non-Muslims based on their interpretations of the Quran [no one can judge and decide they are wrong] and these people like ordinary people put in extra effort [thus jihad] in their actions. This point of offensive warring [not jihad] is debatable and I prefer not to go into the details here.

The proper approach is when such a sensitive word 'jihad' is mentioned, it must be presented in its respective perspective. i.e.

1. Jihad [Quran] = striving, and the likes
2. Jihad [Arabic -MSA] = holy war
3. Jihad [English] = holy war.

Generally most people [due to habit or laziness] will not use 'jihad' in its respective perspective but will conflate the three, messed up the discussion and talking pass one another.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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The root J-H-D is used to represent 'strive, struggle and the likes.

Here are two verses where 'JHD' strive, struggle, is reference to non-Muslims who strive to make Muslims believe in partners beside Allah.
29:8
وَوَصَّيْنَا الإِنسَانَ بِوَالِدَيْهِ حُسْنا ً وَإِنْ جَاهَدَاكَ لِتُشْرِكَ بِي مَا لَيْسَ لَكَ بِه ِِ عِلْم ٌ فَلاَ تُطِعْهُمَا إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ
Wa Waşşaynā Al-'Insāna Biwālidayhi Ĥusnāan Wa 'In Jāhadāka Litushrika Bī Mā Laysa Laka Bihi `Ilmun Falā Tuţi`humā 'Ilayya Marji`ukum Fa'unabbi'ukum Bimā Kuntum Ta`malūna

And We instructed man to be good to his parents. But if they strive to make you set up partners with Me, then do not obey them. To Me are all your destinies, and I will inform you of what you used to do.



31:15
وَإِنْ جَاهَدَاكَ عَلى أَنْ تُشْرِكَ بِي مَا لَيْسَ لَكَ بِه ِِ عِلْم ٌ فَلاَ تُطِعْهُمَا وَصَاحِبْهُمَا فِي الدُّنْيَا مَعْرُوفا ً وَاتَّبِعْ سَبِيلَ مَنْ أَنَابَ إِلَيَّ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ
Wa 'In Jāhadāka `Alá 'An Tushrika Bī Mā Laysa Laka Bihi `Ilmun Falā Tuţi`humā Wa Şāĥibhumā Fī Ad-Dunyā Ma`rūfāan Wa Attabi` Sabīla Man 'Anāba 'Ilayya Thumma 'Ilayya Marji`ukum Fa'unabbi'ukum Bimā Kuntum Ta`malūna

If they strive to make you set up any partners besides Me, then do not obey them. But continue to treat them amicably in this world. You shall follow only the path of those who have sought Me. Ultimately, you all return to Me, then I will inform you of everything you have done.

Therefore objectively, the term 'jihad' which is a part of the root J-H-D representing the various grammatical form of strive, struggle and the likes cannot be specifically related to 'holy-war' as far as the Quran [Quran-only Islam] is concerned.

While lingusitically, 'jihad [Quran] is not equal to 'holy war' it does not mean the Quran do not triggers killing the kuffar and non-Muslims. There are lots of other verses that trigger SOME evil prone Muslims to oppress and kill non-Muslims and no one can insist they are wrong as Allah will not appear to judge who is right or wrong on Earth. This will be a different topic and I prefer not to discuss such issues here.
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:03 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Those who use 'jihad [Arabic or English] = holy war' specifically are not semantically wrong at all because this meaning is in their dictionaries and represented by the relevant real actions by SOME Muslims. Those SOME Muslims doing jihad [English] are correctly named as 'terrorists' because they commit and spread terror. These are all true in accordance to the Arabic and English dictionaries.

But as I had said, in the Quranic language all the 'jihad' words and other related JHD words are NOT specifically attributed to holy war. However many of the verses with the term 'jihad' and other JHD related words are somehow linked to the kuffar in various conditions including warring affairs.
Since a Muslims must 'jihad' strive, i.e. put in extra effort for the cause of Allah [spiritual, politics, etc.], therefore if the cause include war [politics], Muslims must put in extra effort in war as well.


You may be only thinking of your own personal views but for me there are 1.5 billion Muslims with a range of different views and Allah will never appear to decide who is right or wrong. So these different views [good, bad and evil] will exists as long as there are humans and Muslims.

The question of whether the warring [not the jihad] is offensive or defensive is contentions and subject to interpretations. You have insisted all warring affairs in the Quran are defensive only, but my view is the warring intents include offensive and defensive intentions. We have gone thru this issue before and I do not want to go thru them again at present. [no time]

They can use "jihad" i.e. striving, struggle and the likes for anything but if they relate to Quran-Only, then 'jihad' cannot specifically meant 'holy war'.

You need to understand how dictionaries are compiled.
Dictionaries don't give a damn about the element of truth or reality.
As long as there are sufficient numbers of people using a word, it will be included in a dictionary.

Note the word 'Islamophobia' which from intellectually & philosophically perspective should be regarded as a very stupid word and those who use such a term insults their own intelligence. Despite the stupidity element, the word 'Islamophobia' is included in the English dictionary.
So there should be no issue with 'jihad = holy war' in the Arabic and English dictionaries.


Nah, I am sure people of average intelligence can understand the limitations of the dictionaries and seek the truth from other wisdom philosophically.

As I mentioned we have different views on these verses. When we read the verses in the context of the whole chapter, say chapter 9 and with the whole Quran, a different perspective will be revealed. As I had stated I don't want to go into the details at present. [no time].

As above, we need to read all the words related to J-H-D and understand their context in the background.

Objectively, 'jihad' used in the Quran is merely 'striving,' struggle and the likes. "Jihad" [striving for their wrongs] is even used for the non-Muslims. So one cannot claim 'jihad' refer to only spiritual struggle and peace self-striving.

There is definitely a word "Islam" in the English/Arabic dictionaries.

I view there are a few grades of Islam, i.e.
1. Pure Islam = Quran-Only
2. Pseudo-Islam [2nd grade] = Quran + Ahadith
3. 3rd grade Islam = Quran + Ahadith + others [Ahamadiya, sufism, etc.]

If you insists all Muslims must adopt 'Pure Islam' then you will have to convince the 99% of Muslims to Quran-Only Islam. [In principle and objectively, I agree "Islam" should be based on Quran-Only].

The point is the word 'jihad' in the Quran is merely a word used to represent 'striving' struggle, and the likes, to mean putting extra effort in any actions. It is common word that is even used in the Quran to refer to the kuffar in applying extra effort [jihad] to their own actions which is evil in the eyes of Allah. So 'jihad' cannot be exclusively meant 'holy war' or killing of non-Muslims in the Quran-ONLY.

But in reality, there are SOME evil prone Muslims [20%] who warred against non-Muslims based on their interpretations of the Quran [no one can judge and decide they are wrong] and these people like ordinary people put in extra effort [thus jihad] in their actions. This point of offensive warring [not jihad] is debatable and I prefer not to go into the details here.

The proper approach is when such a sensitive word 'jihad' is mentioned, it must be presented in its respective perspective. i.e.

1. Jihad [Quran] = striving, and the likes
2. Jihad [Arabic -MSA] = holy war
3. Jihad [English] = holy war.

Generally most people [due to habit or laziness] will not use 'jihad' in its respective perspective but will conflate the three, messed up the discussion and talking pass one another.
Thank you
My friend
If a word comes in the way of Allah
It means it's offensive
Because jihad in the name of Allah is in order to spread Islam
-----------

If you rely on the Koran, it will fall into tattoos and gas can not be explained
Even the stories of the prophets
Must return to their main sources
-------------
I respect your opinion
--------------
The duty of jihad can not be canceled
For God's sake
Because it is a continuous obligation until the Day of Resurrection
-----------------
This is the position of Muslim jurists
I think our friend Khalifa interprets the Quran as a temperament
It is contrary to Islam
It is for two reasons
The first is that he understands Islam well
The second is used Tkaya
----
If Khalifa believes that Islamic books of interpretation are not true
This means that all Muslims before the Khalifa were in vain
Only Khalifa and his interpretation is correct
---------------
That is why I call on Khalifa to be confident in Muslim jurists
Because they understand Islam more than he does and he has to follow them
And does not follow his hate
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