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Old 03-23-2017, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Khalif,

Here is an simply exercise to demonstrate why you will never see that 'elephant' in the Quranic room.



Take a look at the above image.
What do you see?

The general principle is normally a person will see a certain image based on his biasness?

So what do you see from the above image?
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Old 03-24-2017, 04:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have already stated as far as the Quran is concerned - objectively - the term 'jihad' as used in the 4 verses is not specifically and directly related to 'holy war'.
Anything else is a later development either through misunderstanding of the word or deviation due to hadith books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
However some of the verses are indirectly linked to warring matters.
Yes, the "warring matters" but such warring matters are not described in the Qur'aan as "jihad".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the whole context of chapter 9 is heavily involved in a warring context and aggressive mode against the infidels. This is in contrast to the other Meccan verses where the focus is spiritual and eschatological.
That is totally the wrong way to look at the Qur'aan and the chapter 9. (a) It would have been peace if Muslims had not been physically attacked in Mecca first simply because they were worshiping One God instead of 360 gods of Meccans. Muslims had killed no idol worshiper before the idol worshipers killed Muslims. (b) There would have been peace in Mecca if the Muslims had not been forced to leave their homes in Mecca. (c) After the migration to Madina 325 miles away, Muslims did not come back to wage war on idol worshipers in Mecca first but the idol worshipers from Mecca had waged wars on Muslims in Madina first. (d) Chapter 9 is almost the last chapter revealed. By then all the wars between kuffar of Mecca and Muslims had been carried out except the final retaking of Mecca and their homes in Mecca by the Muslims who were expelled from their originally. The chapter 9 was revealed immediately before that event. In order to understand the implication of these verses, you need to understand what happened there after these verses were revealed.

I tell you the implication of these verses, there has been peace in Mecca ever since then without Muslims killing anyone there (even after these verses in chapter 9). The idol worshipers (the kuffar) had asked Muhammad and Muslims to forgive them for their wrongdoings over the previous 20 years. Muhammad and Muslims forgave them (despite the chapter 9). So your literal reading of Chapter 9 does not give you the true picture and the wisdom behind this chapter related to the events on the ground at the time. Even in this chapter, rules of engagement are made clear. There is no all out killing of kuffar regardless of their future actions. If they incline to peace, Muslims too must incline to peace. The verse in the Chapter 9 are never free license to kill kuffar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Personally I am confident of my points that the Quran contain loads of evil laden elements that trigger SOME evil prone Muslims to commit evils and violence.
I have heard that many times from you already. Keep in mind that the Qur'aan is the holy book of ALL Muslims rather than of SOME Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims will refute your preconceived conclusion before even your project is complete. Your conclusion about the Qur'aan is no better than conclusion of the evil prone. Both see a narrow picture of Islam due to their blinkers. Wise think to do is to look at the BIG picture. To see the BIG picture, one must take his blinkers off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is supported by evidence from my ongoing project. The evidence is supported by the recent London lone wolf case.
And opposite is supported by the vast majority of Muslims. A lone wolf is not the supporting evidence. The guy was using several names, including his original name Adrian Russel. There is nothing in the Qur'aan that tells Muslims to go and kill all kuffar even if they are peaceful. Can you show me, which command in the Qur'aan did this lone wolf follow in killing indiscriminately?

I am not sorry that this criminal has been taken out for good. I feel so sad about the others who lost their lives during their peaceful activity particularly the policeman. I had met him when I had visited parliament house a couple of years ago. He had guided me in getting out of the gate where he was killed unlawfully. Neither him nor his children had deserved this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I prefer not to discuss such issues in details [from the Quran, human nature, psychology, neuroscience, philosophy, etc.] here because this forum do not provide a freer environment to express the truth.
I do not agree with your comment here. Free or freedom does not mean that you can do whatever you like without any regards to the interests of others. This is why rules and laws are established to curtail misuse of freedom and "free speech".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Jihad[Arabic] is definitely equal to 'holy war' and this concept is not derived from the 4 verses that contain 'jihad' in the Quran.
That proves that even Arabs do not fully understand "jihad" in the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This concept of 'jihad[Arabic] = holy war' exudes from a part of the whole ethos [Spirit] of Islam as expressed in the Quran.
You are left with nothing, after the mention of "jihad" in only the above 4 verses, but blame the whole Qur'aan now for "jihad" when it is only "jahad" in the rest of the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As far as the politicians and others are concern, they are referring to jihad[Arabic] and jihad[English] which is the truth.
But not the Qur'aan! It just goes to show that their concept of "jihad" is not "Islamic" but English and Arabic outside the Qur'aan. You will fail if you link English jihadists and Arabic jihadists with the Qur'aan. Clearly, they are remote from the "jihad" in the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But they don't have the intellectual and philosophical depth to link such a concept to the tons of evil laden elements in the Quran.
If you link every evil element to "jihad" in the Qur'aan when "jihad" in the Qur'aan is peaceful self-struggle then you are trying to create your own meaning of "jihad" to match your preconceived conclusion of your project. I can see your vested interest in it. There is no other intellectual or philosophical depth in coming to such preconceived conclusion even before the completion of the project.

It would have been credible thing to do to complete the project and then come to your conclusion. You have done the other way round, began with your conclusion and then set about to do the project to prove your conclusion. What kind of intellectual and philosophical depth is that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Most people think a religion by definition must be peaceful, but they don't understand Islam's Deen is a way of life and an ideology with [partly] evil lurking in some dark corners.
It is the same for you [and most Muslims], because of your confirmation bias, you will never see that 'elephant' in the Quranic room. Many Muslims see that large 'elephant' after they have become apostate.
There is a "BIG elephant" in Islam that can't be seen by Muslims like me but by ALL those outside Islam. What you do not know is that it is not a big elephant but a big phantom figure in their heads (imagination). LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I'll state again, jihad[Quranic] is not equal to 'holy war.'
Thank you. That's all I wanted people to understand. Some are so stubborn that they just won't get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Re the rose thing, in Shakespeare's case, it referred to the same specific species of rose in different names in terms of different languages or any other literary formulation.
Poetry does work like that. It is often someone's imagination, figurative language rather than literal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I only used 'strive' as an example to demonstrate the linguistic features. I have wanted to use 'smoking' and it could be some other words that can demonstrate a verbal noun.
That's fine. I wanted to make you understand that "jihad" is used as noun in 4 verses related to Muslims. "Jahd" is used as noun related to non-Muslims and "jahad" (جَاهَد) or "jahid" جَاهِدِ used for mainly verb. In some cases, "jahid" too is used as noun but only during a war situation. "Jihad" ( جِهَاد ) is never used for fighting, war, killing or for any aggressive behavior.
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Old 03-24-2017, 05:00 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Khalif,

Here is an simply exercise to demonstrate why you will never see that 'elephant' in the Quranic room.

Take a look at the above image.
What do you see?

The general principle is normally a person will see a certain image based on his biasness?

So what do you see from the above image?
Not sure how it relates to the written text of the Qur'aan but I will go along with your game just for once. I see image of a frog in water unless you corrupt it (change it).
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Old 03-24-2017, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Yes, the "warring matters" but such warring matters are not described in the Qur'aan as "jihad".
As stated, the Quran do not DIRECTLY and SPECIFICALLY link/described 'jihad' as holy war.
The words related to JHD which represent 'greater effort' is nevertheless indirectly linked to the warring matters and other non-warring matters [by Muslims and infidels.

Fact is over time in history after the Quran was revealed, SOME Muslims linked the warring matters as 'jihad' and this jihad[Arabic] was recognized in the Arabic Dictionaries and then the English Dictionaries.
Just as 'gay = homosexual' is recognized in the English Dictionaries, there is nothing wrong with 'Jihad = holy war' in the Arabic and English Dictionaries.
You can complain it has nothing to do with the Quran, but there is nothing you can do about it.

Quote:
That is totally the wrong way to look at the Qur'aan and the chapter 9. (a) It would have been peace if Muslims had not been physically attacked in Mecca first simply because they were worshiping One God instead of 360 gods of Meccans. Muslims had killed no idol worshiper before the idol worshipers killed Muslims. (b) There would have been peace in Mecca if the Muslims had not been forced to leave their homes in Mecca. (c) After the migration to Madina 325 miles away, Muslims did not come back to wage war on idol worshipers in Mecca first but the idol worshipers from Mecca had waged wars on Muslims in Madina first. (d) Chapter 9 is almost the last chapter revealed. By then all the wars between kuffar of Mecca and Muslims had been carried out except the final retaking of Mecca and their homes in Mecca by the Muslims who were expelled from their originally. The chapter 9 was revealed immediately before that event. In order to understand the implication of these verses, you need to understand what happened there after these verses were revealed.

I tell you the implication of these verses, there has been peace in Mecca ever since then without Muslims killing anyone there (even after these verses in chapter 9). The idol worshipers (the kuffar) had asked Muhammad and Muslims to forgive them for their wrongdoings over the previous 20 years. Muhammad and Muslims forgave them (despite the chapter 9). So your literal reading of Chapter 9 does not give you the true picture and the wisdom behind this chapter related to the events on the ground at the time. Even in this chapter, rules of engagement are made clear. There is no all out killing of kuffar regardless of their future actions. If they incline to peace, Muslims too must incline to peace. The verse in the Chapter 9 are never free license to kill kuffar.
Wisdom wise, Chapter 9 is definitely in warring mode in terms of reality and human nature.

If Muhammad had not experienced those 'Altered States of Consciousness' [recognized in psychiatry], started preaching and insulting the Qureshi's religion - started the tit-for-tat, then there would have been peace in Mecca [610 AD] and no Islamic terror from 1,400 years ago to the present.

Quote:
I have heard that many times from you already. Keep in mind that the Qur'aan is the holy book of ALL Muslims rather than of SOME Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims will refute your preconceived conclusion before even your project is complete. Your conclusion about the Qur'aan is no better than conclusion of the evil prone. Both see a narrow picture of Islam due to their blinkers. Wise think to do is to look at the BIG picture. To see the BIG picture, one must take his blinkers off.
But SOME, i.e. 20% is 300 million!! [note the various polls that show large % of Muslims support the evil elements from the Quran]

I started with appx, 100 sub-themes but now I have 1,000 sub-themes [all supported by verses]. Appx 30% of the sub-themes are related to evil-laden elements. You may argue against a few marginal ones but there is no way you can argue away all the 300++ sub-themes of evil elements. One global theme is the primal 'Us versus Them' in evil mode, i.e. Muslims [good] versus Kuffar [evil].

Quote:
And opposite is supported by the vast majority of Muslims. A lone wolf is not the supporting evidence. The guy was using several names, including his original name Adrian Russel. There is nothing in the Qur'aan that tells Muslims to go and kill all kuffar even if they are peaceful. Can you show me, which command in the Qur'aan did this lone wolf follow in killing indiscriminately?
When a criminal commit a serious crime after being influenced by evils and violence from his environment, watching violent movies, playing computer games with evil elements, etc. etc. - do you think researchers can identify one particular evil element that motivated the criminal to commit that evil [serial rapists or killer]. The answer is a big "NO." The cause is generally a combination and culmination of a wide range of factors over time.

It is the same for any Islamist terrorist or those who commit whatever evils against non-Muslim [as a duty of a Muslim] in accordance to the Quran. There is no single verse or a few verses that will directly trigger an Islamist terrorist to attack non-Muslims. The Islamist terrorists are inspired [subliminally] in combination and culmination from the tons of evil laden elements [from up to 3000++ verses of various degrees {darajatin}] that exist in the Quran].

Quote:
I am not sorry that this criminal has been taken out for good. I feel so sad about the others who lost their lives during their peaceful activity particularly the policeman. I had met him when I had visited parliament house a couple of years ago. He had guided me in getting out of the gate where he was killed unlawfully. Neither him nor his children had deserved this.
I believe most has already exhausted their tears from past incidences and there will be more terror and violence to come [with 100% certainty] from the recipe of "evil laden verses in Quran + SOME evil prone Muslims"

Quote:
I do not agree with your comment here. Free or freedom does not mean that you can do whatever you like without any regards to the interests of others. This is why rules and laws are established to curtail misuse of freedom and "free speech".
Let say there are degrees of freedom. I agree there is no absolute freedom at 100% or 90-100%. But freedom at 1-80% to criticize objectively should be allowed otherwise there will be tyranny and more evils among humanity.
The restriction I mentioned is at 40% objectively, even justified levels at such low level is deterred.
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Old 03-24-2017, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
You are left with nothing, after the mention of "jihad" in only the above 4 verses, but blame the whole Qur'aan now for "jihad" when it is only "jahad" in the rest of the Qur'aan.

But not the Qur'aan! It just goes to show that their concept of "jihad" is not "Islamic" but English and Arabic outside the Qur'aan. You will fail if you link English jihadists and Arabic jihadists with the Qur'aan. Clearly, they are remote from the "jihad" in the Qur'aan.

If you link every evil element to "jihad" in the Qur'aan when "jihad" in the Qur'aan is peaceful self-struggle then you are trying to create your own meaning of "jihad" to match your preconceived conclusion of your project. I can see your vested interest in it. There is no other intellectual or philosophical depth in coming to such preconceived conclusion even before the completion of the project.

It would have been credible thing to do to complete the project and then come to your conclusion. You have done the other way round, began with your conclusion and then set about to do the project to prove your conclusion. What kind of intellectual and philosophical depth is that?

That's fine. I wanted to make you understand that "jihad" is used as noun in 4 verses related to Muslims. "Jahd" is used as noun related to non-Muslims and "jahad" (جَاهَد) or "jahid" جَاهِدِ used for mainly verb. In some cases, "jahid" too is used as noun but only during a war situation. "Jihad" ( جِهَاد ) is never used for fighting, war, killing or for any aggressive behavior.
I disagree with your very narrow and bias analysis.

Here is a detailed analysis of all the word with the root J-H-D:
Most of these verses are indirectly related to warring matters, e.g. martydom, hijrah, sabil, money, lives, no fear. I refer to the adjoining verses and verses from the chapter itself.

There are only 4 verses related to "personal spiritual striving" from 'jahada' and 'jahid.' There are no verses in 'jihad' that are directly related to 'personal spiritual striving'.

'Jahd' is a noun, but it is related to oaths by Muslims to God.

'Juhd' is related to SDQ - Charity.

JAHADA—verb III perfect—to struggle
2:218 those who emigrated and struggled in the way [sabil] Jahada V.III Strive Hijrah Sabil
3:142 God knows not those who struggled among Jahada V.III Strive patience
8:72 struggled with their wealth and their lives in Jahada V.III Strive Hijrah Sabil Spend Battle of Badr v122-127, 146 fighting, martyrdom 156-58, various fighting verses
8:74 who believed and emigrated and struggled in Jahada V.III strive Hijrah Sabil Supported Sheltered
8:75 afterwards, and emigrated and struggled Jahada V.III strive Hijrah Sabil
9:16 be left before God knows those who struggled Jahada V.III Strive No other God Chapter 9 - fighting mode
9:19 in God and the Last Day and struggled in the Jahada V.III Strive Sabil
9:20 believed and emigrated and struggled in the Jahada V.III strive Hijrah Sabil Money Lives
9:88 with him struggled with their wealth and their Jahada V.III strive Money Lives
16:110 persecuted and, again, struggled and endured Jahada V.III strive Hijrah patience
29:6 struggled, he struggles only for himself. Then Jahada V.III strive 4 himself Personal struggle -for himself
29:8 if they struggled with thee that thou ascribest Jahada V.III Infidel Parents strive against children, then obey not
29:69 who struggled for Us, We will truly guide them Jahada V.III strive Sabil Personal Struggle - Strive in Us -
31:15 both struggled with thee that thou ascribest Jahada V.III Infidel Parents strive against children, then obey not
49:15 they were not in doubt and they struggled with Jahada V.III strive Sabil Money Lives

verb III imperfect (yujahidu) —to struggle
5:54 They struggle in the way of God and they fear Yujihidu strive Sabil No fear
9:44 they struggle with their wealth and their lives. Yujihidu strive Money Lives
9:81 of God and they disliked struggling with their Yujihidu Not strive Money Lives Infidel
29:6 struggled, he struggles only for himself. Then Yujihidu strive 4 himself Personal struggle -for himself
61:11 in God and His Messenger and struggle in the Yujihidu strive Money Lives

verb III imperative (jahid)—struggle
5:35 look for an approach to Him and struggle in Jahid strive Sabil Personal struggle -for himself
9:41 Move forward light and heavy, and struggle Jahid strive Money Lives
9:73 O Prophet! Struggle with the ones who are Jahid strive Against Infidels
9:86 Believe in God and struggle along with His Jahid strive With messenger
22:78 And struggle for God in a true struggling. He Jahid strive Sabil 22:39 Sanction given for War, 22:58 martyrdom & retaliation help by Allah
25:52 the ones who are ungrateful and struggle Jahid strive Against Infidels
66:9 O Prophet! Struggle against the ones who are Jahid strive Against Infidels

verb III verbal noun (jihad)—struggling
9:24 than God and His Messenger and struggling in Jihad strive Sabil Warring 9:25 mentioned victory
22:78 And struggle for God in a true struggling. He Jihad strive Sabil 22:39 Sanction given for War, 22:58 martyrdom & retaliation help by Allah
25:52 against them thereby with a great struggle Jihad strive Against Infidels Spiritual
60:1 If you had been going forth struggling in My Jihad strive Sabil

verb III active participle (mujahid)— one who struggles
4:95 the ones who struggle in the way of God with Mujahid strive Money Lives
4:95 God gave advantage to the ones who struggle Mujahid strive Money Lives
4:95 God gave advantage to the ones who struggle Mujahid strive Money Lives
47:31 you until We know the ones who struggle Mujahid strive Patient Chapter 47 Titled Muhammd or War!

JAHADA—verb I perfect—to be earnest
verb I verbal noun (jahd)—most earnest

5:53 the most earnest of sworn oaths—that they Jahada Earnest Oath
6:109 And they swear by God the most earnest Jahada Earnest Oath
16:38 swore by God their most earnest oaths: God Jahada Earnest Oath
24:53 And they swore by God their most earnest Jahada Earnest Oath
35:42 they swore by God the most earnest oaths, that Jahada Earnest Oath

568. JUHD—masculine noun—striving
9:79 those who find not but their striving [juh'dahum] to give [charity] Juhd Striving Charity



The only verses related to Personal Struggle [Strive] for direct spiritual progress are the following;
JAHADA—verb III perfect—to struggle
29:6 struggled, he struggles only for himself. Then Jahada V.III strive 4 himself Personal struggle -for himself

29:69 who struggled for Us, We will truly guide them Jahada V.III strive Sabil Personal Struggle - Strive in Us -


verb III imperfect (yujahidu) —to struggle
29:6 struggled, he struggles only for himself. Then Yujihidu strive 4 himself Personal struggle -for himself

verb III imperative (jahid)—struggle
5:35 look for an approach to Him and struggle in Jahid strive Sabil Personal struggle -for himself


The following are verses where Jahada is related to infidel parents;
JAHADA—verb III perfect—to struggle
29:8 if they struggled with thee that thou ascribest Jahada V.III Infidel Parents strive against children, then obey not
31:15 both struggled with thee that thou ascribest Jahada V.III Infidel Parents strive against children, then obey not
There are no verses in 'jihad' that are directly related to 'personal spiritual striving'.

You are wrong to insist 'jihad' was coined by Allah purely to represent 'personal spiritual struggle' against self when there are no such thing in those 4 'jihad' verses.
The personal struggle element verses are from 'jahada' and 'jahid' terms not from 'jihad'.
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Not sure how it relates to the written text of the Qur'aan but I will go along with your game just for once. I see image of a frog in water unless you corrupt it (change it).
Thanks for your co-operation. It is all objective and about facts of life and human nature.

Your seeing "image of a frog in water" is VERY normal like what the majority of humans would see when they are first presented with the image. I too saw the frog when I first saw the image.

There is "clearly" another image, i.e. that of a 'horse'.
Those who has horses and deal with horses will notice an image of a horse immediately after seeing the frog.
Those who has a very inquisitive or certain mind will also notice a horse.

Clues:
The frog represent the head of the horse and the 'water' represent the neck and mane of the horse.
Tilt your head slightly and you will see the image of the horse or tilt the image horizontally.

Why?
In this case, the situation is not a normal case where the image of the frog and horse are presented in the normal way, but with a slight distortion.

The reason why the majority see only the 'frog' is because we have been conditioned in the brain by normal circumstances and events and we jump to the obvious. This is a natural instinct.

The reason why [most of] those who own horse[s] or are living with horses most of the time is because the image of the horse has been programmed in their brain over their lifetime due to constant exposure to the shape of a horse.
The point is the programming of the brain by nature or nature to respond to certain triggers [in this case image of a frog and/or horse] based on various circumstances.


What is that to do with reading the texts of the Quran?
With the presentation of texts in a book, it is more complicated than one image.
The Quran has 6,236 verses with very dense and complex combinations of a wide range of themes.

The majority of Muslims [80%] will cognize the 'frog' elements from the Quran with slight variations.

But the "SOME" [20%] of Muslim will also cognize the 'horse' elements from the Quran, but because they have additional programming of an active evil tendencies in their DNA and/or from upbringing, they will also cognize the 'horse' image/element, i.e. the evil laden elements in the Quran.

The majority of moderates, because of VERY STRONG emotional and psychological confirmation bias will never recognize the [horse] elements that are evil, even after being told of these evil elements. They will do their utmost best to argue away any terms that has any elements of evil and justify it as 'good' in one way or another.

The majority of non-Muslims [no confirmation bias based on faith] will recognize the evil laden elements easily upon reading them or when told of the evil laden elements.

The fact is the image of the frog and horse exist in that picture but normally [if not informed] the majority will only recognize and perceive the frog. In a sense those who did not see the 'horse' are living in ignorance [blind in a way] of the fact of the horse!

In the case of the simple frog-horse example it is easy to show them the horse image if they have not seen it.
But in the case of the Quran which is complicated texts, it is not that simple. The Quran is >1,000 times more complex than the frog-horse example. This is why Muslims and non-Muslims will fail to see the full facts of the Quran unless they do a VERY details research into the Quran. [I have done that to a reasonable extent].

Point is since you are in ignorance of the 'horse' you cannot insist the evil prone Muslims are wrong.
In addition you don't have any divine authority to judge them at all, only Allah can judge them on Allah's words.

As for you, I don't expect you [due to confirmation bias] to see the 'horse' in the Quran, i.e. the evil laden elements that the 20% of evil prone Muslims recognize as Allah's words and command.
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Old 03-25-2017, 01:33 AM
 
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If the word jihad is repeated once in the Qur'an it is sufficient to prove that jihad is an offensive term
And when the word Jihad is associated with the words (fe -sbdl -allh )


Jihad is offensive
Muslim jurists believe in this jihad
Why does he deny it?
Do you, Khalifa, know more than your scientists?

And now, Khalifa
I want to ask you
Why do you say peace be upon you and do not say peace to you

What is the difference between them

This test so we know you understand Islam well
---------------
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Old 03-25-2017, 01:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Khalif,

Here is an simply exercise to demonstrate why you will never see that 'elephant' in the Quranic room.



Take a look at the above image.
What do you see?

The general principle is normally a person will see a certain image based on his biasness?

So what do you see from the above image?
A frog and a horse face. - but here is the drop scene, quite a few of the so called "terrorists" who were caught were not able to read the very first chapter of Quran.

And you are saying these "terrorists" who are politically funded by whomever, are actually inspired by Quranic versus and they take the wrong interpretation in order to justify their henious acts?

From Bin Laden to Azahiri to Zarqawai to KSM to Mullah Umer to jihadi john to Taliban o WMD to ISIS and god knows whoever is next character in the next episode. Keep watching as they are trying not to have you lose your interest.
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I disagree with your very narrow and bias analysis.

verb III verbal noun (jihad)—struggling
9:24 than God and His Messenger and struggling in Jihad strive Sabil Warring
This is corruption of the verse when you add "warring" from yourself.

Here is the full verse:

[9.24] Say: If your fathers and your sons and your brethren and your mates and your kinsfolk and property which you have acquired, and the slackness of trade which you fear and dwellings which you like, are dearer to you than Allah and His messenger and striving ("jihad") in His way, then wait till Allah brings about His command: and Allah does not guide the transgressing people.

The verse mentions struggle (jihad) in the way of Allah when the believers had lost kuffar fathers, sons, brothers, wives, other relatives, their homes and businesses when they had migrated to Madina in fear of their lives because they had become Muslims. The struggle they were in at the time was called "jihad" in this verse. They did not migrate for material gains but for spiritual gain for the Hereafter through their Deen, Way of Allah. To regard it as "warring" is "kufr". It is deliberately concealing the truth in the verse of peaceful self-struggle of those who had done hijrah (migration). It wasn't taking part in any warring but self-survival and in the way of Allah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
9:25 mentioned victory
Is that where you see "warring"; in another verse?

The verse 9:25 mentions past events. It mentions material superiority is no guarantee of success. Therefore, do not cling to the material things only for your success but spiritual struggle under trying conditions brings eventual success.

To regard "jihad" in 9:24 as something to do with "warring" is closing your mind to the truth. You would not have done it unless you needed a certain conclusion for your project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
22:78 And struggle for God in a true struggling. He Jihad strive Sabil
Here is full verse:

[22.78] And strive hard (jahidu) for Allah, (such) a striving (jihad) is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

Where did the word "Sabil" come from in this verse? It is an addition from yourself. The verse is talking about praying, giving charity (zakat) for poor people and trusting Allah. It is also mentioning example of prophet Ibrahim who had to migrate because of idol worshipers wanting to kill him. He too had trusted Allah. It was his jihad (struggle) for Allah without any war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
22:39 Sanction given for War, 22:58 martyrdom & retaliation help by Allah
You are looking for straws to hang on to! Here is an appropriate verse right next to 22:78:

[22.77] O you who believe! Bow down and prostrate yourselves and serve your Lord, and do good that you may succeed.

How would those Muslim not succeed?

[18.20] For surely if they prevail against you they would stone you to death or force you back to their religion, and then you will never succeed.

A believer (Muslim) will not succeed if he turns back from praying to Allah in Islam to the idol worshiping. To struggle in staying in Deen was tough under those trying conditions. It was nothing short of "jihad" (self-struggle) for them at the time. It has nothing to do with "warring" as "jihad" in this verse.

Therefore, 22:78 is about struggle in deen, bowing down, prostrating, praying, giving in charity etc. This has nothing to do with war or killing anyone who is peaceful. It was a great struggle for those Muslims. You see only "warring" in this "jihad". Your project has tied up your hands and mind to see this "jihad" as war, warring and driving trucks and cars into a crowd of peaceful people. This is nothing short of mindset of a recent lone wolf with blinkers on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
25:52 against them thereby with a great struggle Jihad strive Against Infidels Spiritual
Full verse:

[25.52] So do not obey the unbelievers (al-kafireen), and strive (jahid) against them with major striving (jihad).

Major jihad (جِهَادًا كَبِيرًا) is jihad of nafs under trying conditions. In the verse, the unbelievers are pressurizing the believers to give up worshiping one God. The guidance is not to obey the unbelievers. Striving in not believing them and staying in Islam under trying conditions is the major jihad against the pressure from unbelievers. No warring is involved in this "jihad" but only self-struggle to stay in Islam under those difficult conditions.

Another point for you to note is that the word "al-kafireen" ("the unbelievers") in this verse is not any or all kafireen. It does not means just "unbelievers" but "the unbelievers". Therefore, the unbelievers mentioned in the verse are specific unbelievers (the unbelievers) who were at the time trying to make the believers give up their religion and return to idol worshiping. You see mention of "al-kafireen" as only "kafireen". Big mistake!

The above is the same mistake many Muslims make in not seeing any difference in the word "al hadith" and "hadith" in the Qur'aan. "al-hadith" and "hadith" in the Qur'aan are not the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
60:1 If you had been going forth struggling in My Jihad strive Sabil
Full verse:

[60.1] O you who believe! Do not take My enemy and your enemy for friends: would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the truth, driving out the messenger and yourselves because you believe in Allah, your Lord? If you have come forth struggling (jihad) in My path and seeking My pleasure, would you manifest love to them? And I know what you conceal and what you manifest; and whoever of you does this, he indeed has gone astray from the straight path.

What kind of "jihad" are they doing in Allah's Way here in this verse? Where is war or warring in this verse? Why did their enemies and Allah's enemies drive them out of their homes?

Here "jihad", in His Way, is simply staying in the Deen of Allah. The other subject is showing love for those who had driven them out from their homes. Showing them love is not "jihad" but is against their struggle (jihad) so far. The verse does not tell the believers to fight, kill, do warring or wage physical war against the unbeliever but don't take those as friends who had expelled you from your homes even if you are struggling to cope with hardship in the Way of Allah.

Therefore, not even one of these verses with the word "jihad" in them is about "warring". You even know this but still brought in the word "warring" to associate these verses with "warring". The only objectivity I see in your effort here is your tunnel vision to somehow qualify your project conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are no verses in 'jihad' that are directly related to 'personal spiritual striving'.
If you do know that these verses are not commanding physical war and now claim that these are not about even personal spiritual jihad then what are these verses and "jihad" in them about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are wrong to insist 'jihad' was coined by Allah purely to represent 'personal spiritual struggle' against self when there are no such thing in those 4 'jihad' verses.
The personal struggle element verses are from 'jahada' and 'jahid' terms not from 'jihad'.
You missed the point!

The word "Jahada" in 9:19 and 29:6 is perfect verb whereas "jahid" is imperfect verb. The Arabic grammar is making it complicated for you to understand different terms with JHD triliteral root. It seems as if you are getting mixed up as to how to interpret "jahada", "jahadu", "jahid", "jahidu" "jahidi", "jahiduna" and "jihad".

I had made it clear that the personal peaceful self-struggle (noun) under trying conditions (due to the actions by the kuffar) is jihad in the Qur'aan. It is never an offensive action on peaceful people of any religion or of no religion.

Peaceful Self-striving (verb) under difficult conditions is called "jihad" (noun). This is illustrated in 22:78 where peaceful striving (jahadu) is called for and this striving is called "jihad" (as noun). Any striving as verb (jahad) during war is never either peaceful self-striving or mentioned as "jihad" in the Qur'aan. It is just jahad (struggling) as verb and as a result of kuffar's action.
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
[indent]JAHADA—verb III perfect—to struggle
2:218 those who emigrated and struggled in the way [sabil] Jahada V.III Strive Hijrah Sabil
3:142 God knows not those who struggled among Jahada V.III Strive patience
8:72 struggled with their wealth and their lives in Jahada V.III Strive Hijrah Sabil Spend Battle of Badr v122-127, 146 fighting, martyrdom 156-58, various fighting verses
8:74 who believed and emigrated and struggled in Jahada V.III strive Hijrah Sabil Supported Sheltered
8:75 afterwards, and emigrated and struggled Jahada V.III strive Hijrah Sabil
9:16 be left before God knows those who struggled Jahada V.III Strive No other God Chapter 9 - fighting mode
9:19 in God and the Last Day and struggled in the Jahada V.III Strive Sabil
9:20 believed and emigrated and struggled in the Jahada V.III strive Hijrah Sabil Money Lives
9:88 with him struggled with their wealth and their Jahada V.III strive Money Lives
16:110 persecuted and, again, struggled and endured Jahada V.III strive Hijrah patience
29:6 struggled, he struggles only for himself. Then Jahada V.III strive 4 himself Personal struggle -for himself
29:8 if they struggled with thee that thou ascribest Jahada V.III Infidel Parents strive against children, then obey not
29:69 who struggled for Us, We will truly guide them Jahada V.III strive Sabil Personal Struggle - Strive in Us -
31:15 both struggled with thee that thou ascribest Jahada V.III Infidel Parents strive against children, then obey not
49:15 they were not in doubt and they struggled with Jahada V.III strive Sabil Money Lives
Where did you get all these verses under "JAHADA"? Many of them do not include the word "JAHADA" in them. And where did the verses 122-127, 146 come from with 8:72? Chapter 8 does not go further than the verse 75.
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