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Old 03-25-2017, 11:23 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The only verses related to Personal Struggle [Strive] for direct spiritual progress are the following;
JAHADA要erb III perfect葉o struggle
29:6 struggled, he struggles only for himself. Then Jahada V.III strive 4 himself Personal struggle -for himself

29:69 who struggled for Us, We will truly guide them Jahada V.III strive Sabil Personal Struggle - Strive in Us -


verb III imperfect (yujahidu) 葉o struggle
29:6 struggled, he struggles only for himself. Then Yujihidu strive 4 himself Personal struggle -for himself

verb III imperative (jahid)耀truggle
5:35 look for an approach to Him and struggle in Jahid strive Sabil Personal struggle -for himself
How did you stick 29:69 in there? Is it a struggle for himself or struggle for Allah?

And what's difference in one's struggle (jahada) for himself and struggle (jahadu) for Allah to become "muhsin"?

How do you reconcile the verses 29:6 and 29:69?

Also, how did you forget to include 9:19 (with jahada) in there?
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Old 03-25-2017, 02:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Thanks for your co-operation. It is all objective and about facts of life and human nature.

Your seeing "image of a frog in water" is VERY normal like what the majority of humans would see when they are first presented with the image. I too saw the frog when I first saw the image.

There is "clearly" another image, i.e. that of a 'horse'.
In the case of the Qur'aan, when it is written "frog", I do not read it as "horse".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Those who has horses and deal with horses will notice an image of a horse immediately after seeing the frog.
Those who has a very inquisitive or certain mind will also notice a horse.

Clues:
The frog represent the head of the horse and the 'water' represent the neck and mane of the horse.
Tilt your head slightly and you will see the image of the horse or tilt the image horizontally.
That would be twisting in each case. The same thing happens when you or anyone else twists the verses of the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Why?
In this case, the situation is not a normal case where the image of the frog and horse are presented in the normal way, but with a slight distortion.
Yes, "distortion". You got the distortion bit right.

Enough for those who understand!
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Old 03-25-2017, 02:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As stated, the Quran do not DIRECTLY and SPECIFICALLY link/described 'jihad' as holy war.
The words related to JHD which represent 'greater effort' is nevertheless indirectly linked to the warring matters and other non-warring matters [by Muslims and infidels.

Fact is over time in history after the Quran was revealed, SOME Muslims linked the warring matters as 'jihad' and this jihad[Arabic] was recognized in the Arabic Dictionaries and then the English Dictionaries.
Just as 'gay = homosexual' is recognized in the English Dictionaries, there is nothing wrong with 'Jihad = holy war' in the Arabic and English Dictionaries.
You can complain it has nothing to do with the Quran, but there is nothing you can do about it.

Wisdom wise, Chapter 9 is definitely in warring mode in terms of reality and human nature.

If Muhammad had not experienced those 'Altered States of Consciousness' [recognized in psychiatry], started preaching and insulting the Qureshi's religion - started the tit-for-tat, then there would have been peace in Mecca [610 AD] and no Islamic terror from 1,400 years ago to the present.

But SOME, i.e. 20% is 300 million!! [note the various polls that show large % of Muslims support the evil elements from the Quran]

I started with appx, 100 sub-themes but now I have 1,000 sub-themes [all supported by verses]. Appx 30% of the sub-themes are related to evil-laden elements. You may argue against a few marginal ones but there is no way you can argue away all the 300++ sub-themes of evil elements. One global theme is the primal 'Us versus Them' in evil mode, i.e. Muslims [good] versus Kuffar [evil].

When a criminal commit a serious crime after being influenced by evils and violence from his environment, watching violent movies, playing computer games with evil elements, etc. etc. - do you think researchers can identify one particular evil element that motivated the criminal to commit that evil [serial rapists or killer]. The answer is a big "NO." The cause is generally a combination and culmination of a wide range of factors over time.

It is the same for any Islamist terrorist or those who commit whatever evils against non-Muslim [as a duty of a Muslim] in accordance to the Quran. There is no single verse or a few verses that will directly trigger an Islamist terrorist to attack non-Muslims. The Islamist terrorists are inspired [subliminally] in combination and culmination from the tons of evil laden elements [from up to 3000++ verses of various degrees {darajatin}] that exist in the Quran].

I believe most has already exhausted their tears from past incidences and there will be more terror and violence to come [with 100% certainty] from the recipe of "evil laden verses in Quran + SOME evil prone Muslims"

Let say there are degrees of freedom. I agree there is no absolute freedom at 100% or 90-100%. But freedom at 1-80% to criticize objectively should be allowed otherwise there will be tyranny and more evils among humanity.
The restriction I mentioned is at 40% objectively, even justified levels at such low level is deterred.
You have said nothing new. Most of it is same old "evil elements". And it has been peace in both Mecca and Madina since the kuffar stopped persecuting and attacking Muslims in those two cities.
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Old 03-25-2017, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Where did you get all these verses under "JAHADA"? Many of them do not include the word "JAHADA" in them. And where did the verses 122-127, 146 come from with 8:72? Chapter 8 does not go further than the verse 75.
Are familiar with the Trilateral Verb Form? Yes? No?
If yes, you would not have queried me.

Note the title of the listing is "JAHADA要erb III perfect".
The 'verb III perfect form' of the root JHD in this case is 'Jahada' while the variation may change to "wajāhadū" to reflect the 'and' and 'past tense'.

"verses 122-127, 146" is actually from the prior row re 3:142 which got mixed up with 8:72.
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Old 03-25-2017, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
How did you stick 29:69 in there? Is it a struggle for himself or struggle for Allah?

And what's difference in one's struggle (jahada) for himself and struggle (jahadu) for Allah to become "muhsin"?

How do you reconcile the verses 29:6 and 29:69?

Also, how did you forget to include 9:19 (with jahada) in there?
Note: 'Jihad' is not DIRECTLY related to 'holy war' in the Quran.
29:69 Waallatheena jahadoo feena lanahdiyannahum subulana wa-inna Allaha lamaAAa almuhsineena
As stated the basic meaning related to JHD is 'putting in extra effort' in the form of 'striving' or 'struggle.'

29:69 is literally striving for Allah, but the context is more to a personal struggle for oneself first then for Allah as there are no related warring elements in chapter 29.

29:6 refer to a personal struggle within oneself. In this case Allah may test the believers generally, e.g. lust and other deviations, to meet Allah's moral standard to return to Allah. It is then a personal 'jahid' within oneself.

As you can see, these two are personal struggles within oneself but Allah did not use the term 'jihad'.
So you are wrong to insist 'jihad' is reserved for personal struggle without any relation [directly or indirectly] to warring matters.

Re 9:19
9:19 AjaAAaltum siqayata alhajji waAAimarata almasjidi alharami kaman amana biAllahi waalyawmi al-akhiri wajahada fee sabeeli Allahi la yastawoona AAinda Allahi waAllahu la yahdee alqawma alththalimeena
Within 9:19 the comparison of the infidels is compared to Muslims striving in the way of Allah. But 'the way of Allah' within Chapter 9 is within a warring atmosphere and mode filled with enmity, contempt, anger, antagonism for the infidels. Allah did not command Muslims to 'jahad' to war, but the term 'jahad' is raised within a 'warring' atmosphere.

Note again, I did not state 9:19 is directly related to war or holy war against infidels.
I state 9:19 is raised within a warring atmosphere and mode, thus INDIRECTLY [strong or weak] to warring elements.
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Old 03-25-2017, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This is corruption of the verse when you add "warring" from yourself.

Here is the full verse:

[9.24] Say: If your fathers and your sons and your brethren and your mates and your kinsfolk and property which you have acquired, and the slackness of trade which you fear and dwellings which you like, are dearer to you than Allah and His messenger and striving ("jihad") in His way, then wait till Allah brings about His command: and Allah does not guide the transgressing people.

The verse mentions struggle (jihad) in the way of Allah when the believers had lost kuffar fathers, sons, brothers, wives, other relatives, their homes and businesses when they had migrated to Madina in fear of their lives because they had become Muslims. The struggle they were in at the time was called "jihad" in this verse. They did not migrate for material gains but for spiritual gain for the Hereafter through their Deen, Way of Allah. To regard it as "warring" is "kufr". It is deliberately concealing the truth in the verse of peaceful self-struggle of those who had done hijrah (migration). It wasn't taking part in any warring but self-survival and in the way of Allah.

Is that where you see "warring"; in another verse?

The verse 9:25 mentions past events. It mentions material superiority is no guarantee of success. Therefore, do not cling to the material things only for your success but spiritual struggle under trying conditions brings eventual success.

To regard "jihad" in 9:24 as something to do with "warring" is closing your mind to the truth. You would not have done it unless you needed a certain conclusion for your project.

Here is full verse:

[22.78] And strive hard (jahidu) for Allah, (such) a striving (jihad) is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

Where did the word "Sabil" come from in this verse? It is an addition from yourself. The verse is talking about praying, giving charity (zakat) for poor people and trusting Allah. It is also mentioning example of prophet Ibrahim who had to migrate because of idol worshipers wanting to kill him. He too had trusted Allah. It was his jihad (struggle) for Allah without any war.

You are looking for straws to hang on to! Here is an appropriate verse right next to 22:78:

[22.77] O you who believe! Bow down and prostrate yourselves and serve your Lord, and do good that you may succeed.

How would those Muslim not succeed?

[18.20] For surely if they prevail against you they would stone you to death or force you back to their religion, and then you will never succeed.

A believer (Muslim) will not succeed if he turns back from praying to Allah in Islam to the idol worshiping. To struggle in staying in Deen was tough under those trying conditions. It was nothing short of "jihad" (self-struggle) for them at the time. It has nothing to do with "warring" as "jihad" in this verse.

Therefore, 22:78 is about struggle in deen, bowing down, prostrating, praying, giving in charity etc. This has nothing to do with war or killing anyone who is peaceful. It was a great struggle for those Muslims. You see only "warring" in this "jihad". Your project has tied up your hands and mind to see this "jihad" as war, warring and driving trucks and cars into a crowd of peaceful people. This is nothing short of mindset of a recent lone wolf with blinkers on.

Full verse:

[25.52] So do not obey the unbelievers (al-kafireen), and strive (jahid) against them with major striving (jihad).

Major jihad (جِهَادًا كَبِيرًا) is jihad of nafs under trying conditions. In the verse, the unbelievers are pressurizing the believers to give up worshiping one God. The guidance is not to obey the unbelievers. Striving in not believing them and staying in Islam under trying conditions is the major jihad against the pressure from unbelievers. No warring is involved in this "jihad" but only self-struggle to stay in Islam under those difficult conditions.

Another point for you to note is that the word "al-kafireen" ("the unbelievers") in this verse is not any or all kafireen. It does not means just "unbelievers" but "the unbelievers". Therefore, the unbelievers mentioned in the verse are specific unbelievers (the unbelievers) who were at the time trying to make the believers give up their religion and return to idol worshiping. You see mention of "al-kafireen" as only "kafireen". Big mistake!

The above is the same mistake many Muslims make in not seeing any difference in the word "al hadith" and "hadith" in the Qur'aan. "al-hadith" and "hadith" in the Qur'aan are not the same thing.

Full verse:

[60.1] O you who believe! Do not take My enemy and your enemy for friends: would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the truth, driving out the messenger and yourselves because you believe in Allah, your Lord? If you have come forth struggling (jihad) in My path and seeking My pleasure, would you manifest love to them? And I know what you conceal and what you manifest; and whoever of you does this, he indeed has gone astray from the straight path.

What kind of "jihad" are they doing in Allah's Way here in this verse? Where is war or warring in this verse? Why did their enemies and Allah's enemies drive them out of their homes?

Here "jihad", in His Way, is simply staying in the Deen of Allah. The other subject is showing love for those who had driven them out from their homes. Showing them love is not "jihad" but is against their struggle (jihad) so far. The verse does not tell the believers to fight, kill, do warring or wage physical war against the unbeliever but don't take those as friends who had expelled you from your homes even if you are struggling to cope with hardship in the Way of Allah.

Therefore, not even one of these verses with the word "jihad" in them is about "warring". You even know this but still brought in the word "warring" to associate these verses with "warring". The only objectivity I see in your effort here is your tunnel vision to somehow qualify your project conclusion.

If you do know that these verses are not commanding physical war and now claim that these are not about even personal spiritual jihad then what are these verses and "jihad" in them about?

You missed the point!

The word "Jahada" in 9:19 and 29:6 is perfect verb whereas "jahid" is imperfect verb. The Arabic grammar is making it complicated for you to understand different terms with JHD triliteral root. It seems as if you are getting mixed up as to how to interpret "jahada", "jahadu", "jahid", "jahidu" "jahidi", "jahiduna" and "jihad".

I had made it clear that the personal peaceful self-struggle (noun) under trying conditions (due to the actions by the kuffar) is jihad in the Qur'aan. It is never an offensive action on peaceful people of any religion or of no religion.

Peaceful Self-striving (verb) under difficult conditions is called "jihad" (noun). This is illustrated in 22:78 where peaceful striving (jahadu) is called for and this striving is called "jihad" (as noun). Any striving as verb (jahad) during war is never either peaceful self-striving or mentioned as "jihad" in the Qur'aan. It is just jahad (struggling) as verb and as a result of kuffar's action.
Qualification:
'Jihad' is not DIRECTLY equal to 'holy war.'
'Jihad' in the Quran merely meant 'putting in extra effort' into one's deeds.

Where I mentioned 'warring' is the terms [root JHD] are INDIRECTLY related to 'warring' elements as they are raised within warring atmosphere and mode filled with enmity, contempt, anger, antagonism for the infidels. This can be inferred by reading all the verses within the related chapter. In addition note the Meccan and Medinian phase plus reading the chapters and verses in chronological order.
[9.24] Say: If your fathers and your sons and your brethren and your mates and your kinsfolk and property which you have acquired, and the slackness of trade which you fear and dwellings which you like, are dearer to you than Allah and His messenger and striving ("jihad") in His way, then wait till Allah brings about His command: and Allah does not guide the transgressing people.
As I had mentioned Chapter 9 [last chapter] in Chronological Order culminated in warring atmosphere and mode filled with enmity, contempt, anger, antagonism for the infidels.
In 9:24 Allah commanded the Muslims not to give a f with the infidels' business [because they are getting politically and economically stronger] rather they should put in extra effort in the Way of Allah. In this case Way of Allah is antagonism, enmity, contempt against the infidels which promises victory for the believers as proven in the past.

The above explanation is the same for all the verses with JHD root terms and related indirectly to warring elements, atmosphere, mode with feelings of contempt, antagonisms, enmity, hate, wrath for the infidels as evidenced by various verses in the related chapters in the Medinian phases. Such a feeling was also manifesting in the hijrah phases.

Quote:
I had made it clear that the personal peaceful self-struggle (noun) under trying conditions (due to the actions by the kuffar) is jihad in the Qur'aan. It is never an offensive action on peaceful people of any religion or of no religion.

Peaceful Self-striving (verb) under difficult conditions is called "jihad" (noun). This is illustrated in 22:78 where peaceful striving (jahadu) is called for and this striving is called "jihad" (as noun). Any striving as verb (jahad) during war is never either peaceful self-striving or mentioned as "jihad" in the Qur'aan. It is just jahad (struggling) as verb and as a result of kuffar's action.
Get familiar with the Trilateral Verb Forms and how the words are constructed from the root JHD.

Your above views are your own pure inventions.

Last edited by Continuum; 03-25-2017 at 08:56 PM..
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Old 03-25-2017, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
In the case of the Qur'aan, when it is written "frog", I do not read it as "horse".

That would be twisting in each case. The same thing happens when you or anyone else twists the verses of the Qur'aan.

Yes, "distortion". You got the distortion bit right.

Enough for those who understand!
How can you read the "horse" in the Quran when you cannot see it at all.
All you see [as with most] is only the "frog".
The fact is your [bias mind] shut off the truth [the horse] from you.

"Distortion" is only for demonstration sake.

Note this natural instinct of human nature is well researched and it happens in many [millions] aspects of human life. I have done extensive research on this aspect of knowledge.

As a side point [I do not expect you to be interested in this];

If you venture deep into philosophy, you will note your mind merely present a 'frog' reality to the normal human being and shut of the finer aspects of reality to the normal person. In one sense, you see a 'real' table but there are other more real aspects to 'what is the table'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
Before we go farther it will be well to consider for a moment what it is that we have discovered so far.

It has appeared that, if we take any common object of the sort that is supposed to be known by the senses, what the senses immediately tell us is not the truth about the object as it is apart from us, but only the truth about certain sense-data which, so far as we can see, depend upon the relations between us and the object. Thus what we directly see and feel is merely 'appearance', which we believe to be a sign of some 'reality' behind. But if the reality is not what appears, have we any means of knowing whether there is any reality at all? And if so, have we any means of finding out what it is like?

Such questions are bewildering, and it is difficult to know that even the strangest hypotheses may not be true. Thus our familiar table, which has roused but the slightest thoughts in us hitherto, has become a problem full of surprising possibilities. The one thing we know about it is that it is not what it seems. Beyond this modest result, so far, we have the most complete liberty of conjecture. Leibniz tells us it is a community of souls: Berkeley tells us it is an idea in the mind of God; sober science, scarcely less wonderful, tells us it is a vast collection of electric charges in violent motion.

Among these surprising possibilities, doubt suggests that perhaps there is no table at all.

Philosophy, if it cannot answer so many questions as we could wish, has at least the power of asking questions which increase the interest of the world, and show the strangeness and wonder lying just below the surface even in the commonest things of daily life.

Last edited by Continuum; 03-25-2017 at 08:48 PM..
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Old 03-25-2017, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
A frog and a horse face. - but here is the drop scene, quite a few of the so called "terrorists" who were caught were not able to read the very first chapter of Quran.

And you are saying these "terrorists" who are politically funded by whomever, are actually inspired by Quranic versus and they take the wrong interpretation in order to justify their henious acts?

From Bin Laden to Azahiri to Zarqawai to KSM to Mullah Umer to jihadi john to Taliban o WMD to ISIS and god knows whoever is next character in the next episode. Keep watching as they are trying not to have you lose your interest.
Your views are very narrow here.

I don't have the facts on how many are illiterate with the Quran. But those who can read the 'horse' [fact] in the Quran will influence the whole group of like-minded believers with an active evil tendencies. The resultant and consequences of the evil that manifest are real.

From what I have read, most of the jihadists can read the Quran;


Btw, I am not confining merely to "terrorists" activities. Those appx. 20% evil prone Muslims commit a wide range of evils [10% to 99.9% evilness] on being inspired by the tons of evil laden verses in the Quran [and for the pseudo, from the Ahadith].
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Old 03-25-2017, 09:37 PM
 
2,072 posts, read 2,153,439 times
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The world is sick of the violent, savage aspect of Islam. God will judge these terrorist murderers and their supporters with the fire of ten thousand suns for all the hate, violence, and savagery they commit under the umbrella of Islam. Get some love in your religion for crying out loud. Stop hating Sufis, Shias, Jews, Americans, Europeans and etc. Stop the hate. Your religion needs love, desperately. Let the inner beauty of Islam shine thru out the world, not the hate. God is love..get it right!

Last edited by folkguitarist555; 03-25-2017 at 10:00 PM..
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:18 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,767 times
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-to-Continuum
You have great patience

All Muslims in the world know that fighting for Allah is a jihad in the cause of Allah

And the offensive jihad of the statutes of Islam
The attempt to abolish this obligation is a challenge to the true teachings of Islam
True Islam is a jihad for the sake of Allah
This is God's law
It is the Word of God
Our friend will not be able to change the truth
For he is distorting the word of God
This is a great sin
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