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Old 03-25-2017, 10:53 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by folkguitarist555 View Post
The world is sick of the violent, savage aspect of Islam. God will judge these terrorist murderers and their supporters with the fire of ten thousand suns for all the hate, violence, and savagery they commit under the umbrella of Islam. Get some love in your religion for crying out loud. Stop hating Sufis, Shias, Jews, Americans, Europeans and etc. Stop the hate. Your religion needs love, desperately. Let the inner beauty of Islam shine thru out the world, not the hate. God is love..get it right!
What do you think of this verse?

Taking into consideration
The translation is not correct

Allah will punish them by your hands
not correct

yoathebhm =tantalize

I think the word punish Different from a word tantalize

The Quran used a word yoathebhm And translated tantalize




Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people surat al -toba
To check back to the Arabic word
And translated on their own
You will know the truth of my question and my observation

God says,Fight them
And then he says yoathebhm them by your hands
I think the words which are the words of the Koran are very clear
Where are the words of love, my friend?
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Old 03-25-2017, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
-to-Continuum
You have great patience

All Muslims in the world know that fighting for Allah is a jihad in the cause of Allah

And the offensive jihad of the statutes of Islam
The attempt to abolish this obligation is a challenge to the true teachings of Islam
True Islam is a jihad for the sake of Allah
This is God's law
It is the Word of God
Our friend will not be able to change the truth
For he is distorting the word of God
This is a great sin
Point is I am a person who uphold a high standard of honesty and integrity.
Integrity is the qualifications of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.
It is generally a personal choice to hold oneself to consistent moral and ethical standards. In ethics, integrity is regarded by many people as the honesty and truthfulness or accuracy of one's actions. -wiki
The original basic meaning of 'jihad' from the root JHD is 'putting extra effort' in the form of striving, struggle, being earnest, zeal and the likes.

In the Quran, Allah use this basic meaning, i.e. jihad = put extra effort in whatever actions to be done
This "putting extra effort" is applied to both Muslims and infidels.
In the Quran, Allah did not say "jihad = holy war."
What Allah stated was if believers go against [fight, etc.] the infidels then put in extra effort [jihad, jahad, jahid] to do so.
Because jihad = putting in extra effort, jihad cannot be = holy war in the Quran.
Since Allah never said such a thing, I cannot put words into Allah mouth, that would be dishonest and wreck by integrity.

While Allah in the Quran did not equate 'jihad' = holy war,
SOME Muslims did relate 'jihad' = holy war and that was recognized in the Arabic Dictionary.
It is important to differentiate between what Allah stated in the Quran and what SOME Muslims did in the past.
"Jihad [Arabic] = holy war" is not wrong but we cannot say it is directly from the Quran and Allah.

The question is, does Islam via the Quran condone and promote holy war,
the answer is 'Yes' but not by the term 'jihad' in the Quran.
There are many verses in the Quran that inspire [to the evil prone Muslims] the idea of holy war and 'jihad' and other JHD words merely meant "putting extra efforts" in such a holy war.

So from the Quran perspective 'jihad[ putting extra effort] cannot be equal 'holy war' itself.
I do that to maintain my honesty and integrity.
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Old 03-26-2017, 01:38 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
-to-Continuum
You have great patience

All Muslims in the world know that fighting for Allah is a jihad in the cause of Allah

And the offensive jihad of the statutes of Islam
The attempt to abolish this obligation is a challenge to the true teachings of Islam
True Islam is a jihad for the sake of Allah
This is God's law
It is the Word of God
Our friend will not be able to change the truth
For he is distorting the word of God
This is a great sin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Point is I am a person who uphold a high standard of honesty and integrity.
Integrity is the qualifications of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.
It is generally a personal choice to hold oneself to consistent moral and ethical standards. In ethics, integrity is regarded by many people as the honesty and truthfulness or accuracy of one's actions. -wiki
The original basic meaning of 'jihad' from the root JHD is 'putting extra effort' in the form of striving, struggle, being earnest, zeal and the likes.

In the Quran, Allah use this basic meaning, i.e. jihad = put extra effort in whatever actions to be done
This "putting extra effort" is applied to both Muslims and infidels.
In the Quran, Allah did not say "jihad = holy war."
What Allah stated was if believers go against [fight, etc.] the infidels then put in extra effort [jihad, jahad, jahid] to do so.
Because jihad = putting in extra effort, jihad cannot be = holy war in the Quran.
Since Allah never said such a thing, I cannot put words into Allah mouth, that would be dishonest and wreck by integrity.

While Allah in the Quran did not equate 'jihad' = holy war,
SOME Muslims did relate 'jihad' = holy war and that was recognized in the Arabic Dictionary.
It is important to differentiate between what Allah stated in the Quran and what SOME Muslims did in the past.
"Jihad [Arabic] = holy war" is not wrong but we cannot say it is directly from the Quran and Allah.

The question is, does Islam via the Quran condone and promote holy war,
the answer is 'Yes' but not by the term 'jihad' in the Quran.
There are many verses in the Quran that inspire [to the evil prone Muslims] the idea of holy war and 'jihad' and other JHD words merely meant "putting extra efforts" in such a holy war.

So from the Quran perspective 'jihad[ putting extra effort] cannot be equal 'holy war' itself.
I do that to maintain my honesty and integrity.
mahasn sawresho,

Read Contniuum's post carefully, if you can.
He agrees with me that none of the 4 verses in the Qur'aan with the word "jihad" in them are about "warring" or "holy war".

That kills your argument.

Greetings
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Old 03-26-2017, 03:36 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note: 'Jihad' is not DIRECTLY related to 'holy war' in the Quran.
Continuum,

The word "jihad" in the Qur'aan is the "struggle" the believers had endured in their religion (Islam) because of the actions against them by the kuffar. We, today, have it almost very easy to practice our deen. It was nothing like that in Mecca and then Madina 1450 years ago. It is their "struggle" then that is called "jihad" (under trying conditions).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
29:69 Waallatheena jahadoo feena lanahdiyannahum subulana wa-inna Allaha lamaAAa almuhsineena
As stated the basic meaning related to JHD is 'putting in extra effort' in the form of 'striving' or 'struggle.'

29:69 is literally striving for Allah, but the context is more to a personal struggle for oneself first then for Allah as there are no related warring elements in chapter 29.

29:6 refer to a personal struggle within oneself. In this case Allah may test the believers generally, e.g. lust and other deviations, to meet Allah's moral standard to return to Allah. It is then a personal 'jahid' within oneself.
Not all JHD words are 'putting in extra effort'. Jihad has nothing to do with 'putting in extra effort' (verb) but only with struggle (noun) and hardship the believers had faced in practicing their deen (praying etc.) They were being persecuted for worshiping One God instead of 360.

Therefore, "jihad" is not 'putting in extra effort' but a "struggle" (noun) endured by the believers in (a) surviving under the onslaught by the kuffar and (b) keep practicing Islam under very difficult circumstances. When one goes through such struggle, one has gone through "jihad".

Whether it is entirely personal (self control as guided by Allah) or a matter to do with Deen (worshiping/praying), it is all done in the Way of Allah. Islam is the Way (Deen) of Allah. in each case, it is personal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As you can see, these two are personal struggles within oneself but Allah did not use the term 'jihad'.
So you are wrong to insist 'jihad' is reserved for personal struggle without any relation [directly or indirectly] to warring matters.
You misunderstand. Putting extra effort or just effort is action (verb) jahadu (strive) in 29:69 and jahada (strives/struggles) in 29:6. Striving for one's self comes in many shapes. Even you are striving for yourself but this striving of yours is not striving for Allah. Where as striving to believe and do good is striving for one's self as well as for Allah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Re 9:19
9:19 AjaAAaltum siqayata alhajji waAAimarata almasjidi alharami kaman amana biAllahi waalyawmi al-akhiri wajahada fee sabeeli Allahi la yastawoona AAinda Allahi waAllahu la yahdee alqawma alththalimeena
Within 9:19 the comparison of the infidels is compared to Muslims striving in the way of Allah. But 'the way of Allah' within Chapter 9 is within a warring atmosphere and mode filled with enmity, contempt, anger, antagonism for the infidels. Allah did not command Muslims to 'jahad' to war, but the term 'jahad' is raised within a 'warring' atmosphere.
This is not good thinking on your part, Continuum. Not all verses in the chapter 9 are about "warring". If you read the whole chapter carefully, it wasn't revealed at the same time. The first part is the earlier one when Muslims did not have control of the Masjid and the Ka'aba. The kuffar were still the custodians of the Ka'aba. The first few verses (the announcement) were read there in the Masjid well before there was takeover of the Masjid by Muslims.

[9.18] Only he shall visit the mosques of Allah who believes in Allah and the latter day, and keeps up prayer and pays the poor-rate and fears none but Allah; so (as for) these, it may be that they are of the guided ones.

[9.19] What! Do you make (one who undertakes) the giving of drink to the pilgrims and the guarding of the Sacred Mosque like him who believes in Allah and the latter day and strives hard in Allah's way? They are not equal with Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

[9.20] Those who believed and fled (their homes), and strove hard in Allah's way with their property and their souls, are much higher in rank with Allah; and those are they who are the achievers
(of their objects).

And you call it "warring atmosphere" when it is describing who deserves to be in charge of the Masjid. The wars between the kuffar and Muslims had stopped by this time. It is those who believed and were striving hard in Allah's Way (Islam) rather than the non-believers who had to be in charge of the Masjid. And that's what had happened without any further war. Therefore, it was not "warring atmosphere" but peace atmosphere that the Muslims were able to read these verses in the Masjid with the kuffar looking on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note again, I did not state 9:19 is directly related to war or holy war against infidels.
I state 9:19 is raised within a warring atmosphere and mode, thus INDIRECTLY [strong or weak] to warring elements.
You are using broad brush for all the verses in the same chapter. You can't study the Qur'aan that way. You are reading something in 9:19 that isn't even there. You fail to understand where in the same chapter the earlier theme has changed to a different theme. The theme in 9:19 is who deserves to be the custonian of the Masjid and the Ka'aba. The theme in three verses (9:18-20) has nothing to do with "warring" but with the quality of deserving custodians of the Masjid (those who have been striving in the Deen even after the expulsion from Mecca).
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Old 03-26-2017, 03:54 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
How can you read the "horse" in the Quran when you cannot see it at all.
All you see [as with most] is only the "frog".
The fact is your [bias mind] shut off the truth [the horse] from you.

"Distortion" is only for demonstration sake.
If "frog" is written in the Qur'aan, I have to read it as "frog". I cannot distort it and read "horse".

You had to distort and twist to read "horse". And when you read "horse" after twisting you can't see "frog".

If it is written "6", I can twist and see it as "9". The point to note here is that "9" is seen through twisting but in reality it is "6". A "6" is always a "6" on earth. One has to have his eyes in his heels to read it differently.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,
The word "jihad" in the Qur'aan is the "struggle" the believers had endured in their religion (Islam) because of the actions against them by the kuffar. We, today, have it almost very easy to practice our deen. It was nothing like that in Mecca and then Madina 1450 years ago. It is their "struggle" then that is called "jihad" (under trying conditions).
All humans will have the same basic DNA for the next 5 million years.
As long as the main DNA structure remain unchanged over the next 5 million years, perhaps longer, it will always be the case of "believers versus non-believers" and in the case of Islam, the "Muslims versus the Kuffar."

Thus it is not a case of what happened in Medina 1450 years ago, but the threat of the kuffar is always there until Shaytan is roped in on Judgment Day.
According to the Quran, Shaytan is free to roam to seduce the kuffar to his evil ways and Shaytan will attempt to sway the Muslims [except the stronger Muttagin who are able to resist].

Muslims did not have it easy nor will they in the next 10,000 years.
Therefore the Muslims will have to struggle [strive] [JHD, jahada, jihad, jahid, etc.] against enemies of Islam lurking at every corner and against one's nafs.


Quote:
Not all JHD words are 'putting in extra effort'. Jihad has nothing to do with 'putting in extra effort' (verb) but only with struggle (noun) and hardship the believers had faced in practicing their deen (praying etc.) They were being persecuted for worshiping One God instead of 360.

Therefore, "jihad" is not 'putting in extra effort' but a "struggle" (noun) endured by the believers in (a) surviving under the onslaught by the kuffar and (b) keep practicing Islam under very difficult circumstances. When one goes through such struggle, one has gone through "jihad".
Both struggle or strive involve putting in extra effort.
Check out google dictionary;

Quote:
strive
strīv/Submit
verb
make great efforts to achieve or obtain something.
"national movements were striving for independence"

struggle or fight vigorously.
"scholars must strive against bias"
So "struggle" and "strive" both involved "putting in extra effort" in different circumstances.

The spiritual effort that is general and where 'putting in extra effort' is not mentioned is "S3W; sa`a" as in;
17:19. And whoso [Muslims] desireth the Hereafter and striveth [S3W: wasaʿā] for it with the effort [saʿyahā] necessary, being a believer [Muslim]; for such, their effort findeth favour [ShKR; mashkur] (with their Lord).
see other verses with S3W; sa`a, 21:94; 53:40, 88:9. 76:22. 79:35



Quote:
Whether it is entirely personal (self control as guided by Allah) or a matter to do with Deen (worshiping/praying), it is all done in the Way of Allah. Islam is the Way (Deen) of Allah. in each case, it is personal.
The Way of Allah [enjoin ma'ruf avoid munkar] is represented by all the elements within the 6,236 verses in the Quran.
If the appx 20% of evil prone Muslims are inclined to the 'horse' [ evil laden elements] they cognize as 'ma'ruf' within the 6,236 verses of the 'Way of Allah' there is nothing you can do about it!

17:84. Say [Muhammad]: Each one doth [does] according to his [own] Rule of Conduct [ShKL: shākilatihi], and thy Lord is best aware of him whose way is right [ahdā: best guided].
Therefore you cannot judge the evil prone who interpret the FACT of the 'horse' within the Quran, only Allah can be the final arbiter.


Quote:
You misunderstand. Putting extra effort or just effort is action (verb) jahadu (strive) in 29:69 and jahada (strives/struggles) in 29:6. Striving for one's self comes in many shapes. Even you are striving for yourself but this striving of yours is not striving for Allah. Where as striving to believe and do good is striving for one's self as well as for Allah.

This is not good thinking on your part, Continuum. Not all verses in the chapter 9 are about "warring". If you read the whole chapter carefully, it wasn't revealed at the same time. The first part is the earlier one when Muslims did not have control of the Masjid and the Ka'aba. The kuffar were still the custodians of the Ka'aba. The first few verses (the announcement) were read there in the Masjid well before there was takeover of the Masjid by Muslims.

[9.18] Only he shall visit the mosques of Allah who believes in Allah and the latter day, and keeps up prayer and pays the poor-rate and fears none but Allah; so (as for) these, it may be that they are of the guided ones.

[9.19] What! Do you make (one who undertakes) the giving of drink to the pilgrims and the guarding of the Sacred Mosque like him who believes in Allah and the latter day and strives hard in Allah's way? They are not equal with Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

[9.20] Those who believed and fled (their homes), and strove hard in Allah's way with their property and their souls, are much higher in rank with Allah; and those are they who are the achievers
(of their objects).

And you call it "warring atmosphere" when it is describing who deserves to be in charge of the Masjid. The wars between the kuffar and Muslims had stopped by this time. It is those who believed and were striving hard in Allah's Way (Islam) rather than the non-believers who had to be in charge of the Masjid. And that's what had happened without any further war. Therefore, it was not "warring atmosphere" but peace atmosphere that the Muslims were able to read these verses in the Masjid with the kuffar looking on.

You are using broad brush for all the verses in the same chapter. You can't study the Qur'aan that way. You are reading something in 9:19 that isn't even there. You fail to understand where in the same chapter the earlier theme has changed to a different theme. The theme in 9:19 is who deserves to be the custonian of the Masjid and the Ka'aba. The theme in three verses (9:18-20) has nothing to do with "warring" but with the quality of deserving custodians of the Masjid (those who have been striving in the Deen even after the expulsion from Mecca).
If only you can read Chapter 9 in its real ethos/spirit more objectively and with an understanding of what other Muslims would have understood it [horse or frog] [note 17:84] which is true and only Allah can be the final judge.

I suggest you reread Chapter 9 again, this time with a more open mind.

In 9:19 the built up of antagonism, anger, hate, contempt and enmity are so great, even the good intentions of the kuffar [supposed Muhammad's uncle] are not appreciated at all.
This is a part of the strategy to 'divide and rule' invoking the primal Us versus Them instinct. Thus such a strategy built up negative tensions between the Muslims and the Kuffar. This negative is expressed in all the other verses in Chapter 9.

Thus all the J-H-D related terms [putting in extra effort, striving, struggle, etc.] are tightly compacted with the related negative tension built up within Chapter 9.

9:20 indicated the Muslims were forced out of Mecca, surely there is hate and negative tension. Then those who jahad [J-H-D] sacrificed their wealth and lives are highly recognized and praised.

It is not only Chapter 9 [most notable] but the whole Quran and its tons of evil laden elements that inspired the 'horse' seers to commit terrible evils onto the non-Muslims and YOU [others or me] cannot judge them at all, only Allah can decide whether they are right or wrong [17:84]. see also 42:10, 6:149, and the likes.

Therefore until Judgment Day [which is not likely to happen -14:48] the evil prone Muslims will continue to wreck havoc as inspired by the evil laden verses in the Quran in reality on Earth.

Last edited by Continuum; 03-26-2017 at 09:57 PM..
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
If "frog" is written in the Qur'aan, I have to read it as "frog". I cannot distort it and read "horse".

You had to distort and twist to read "horse". And when you read "horse" after twisting you can't see "frog".

If it is written "6", I can twist and see it as "9". The point to note here is that "9" is seen through twisting but in reality it is "6". A "6" is always a "6" on earth. One has to have his eyes in his heels to read it differently.
Point is the "frog" and "horse" exist as real possible points in the Quran.
You and the majority cannot read the 'horse' matters as your brain do not allow you to cognize it.

There is no real distortion at all.
The horse is merely drawn vertically so as to highlight the principle.

I can give you another example,



There is no "distortion" to the above image.
The majority will see one cube,
but is is possible to see two cubes.
You will have to look hard or see the explanations given to see two cubes.

Here is another;


You would have come across the above [?] but for the first timers, they are likely to see only one image. Can you see two clear-cut images.


With the Quran's 6,236 verses in texts, there are likely to be hundreds of points where different people will cognize different meanings from the same set of texts.

Both us has also encountered many verses where we disagreed on the meanings despite heavy scrutiny down [without translations] to the same Arabic texts and grammar.

Last edited by Continuum; 03-26-2017 at 09:49 PM..
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
mahasn sawresho,

Read Contniuum's post carefully, if you can.
He agrees with me that none of the 4 verses in the Qur'aan with the word "jihad" in them are about "warring" or "holy war".

That kills your argument.
My assertion is the 4 verses with 'jihad' in the Quran do not relate DIRECTLY and SPECIFICALLY to 'holy war.'
Therefore objectively and in principle 'jihad' in the Quran is not equal to 'holy war'.
Jihad and other J-H-D terms in the Quran refer to 'putting in extra effort'.
So 'putting in extra effort' cannot literary be equal to 'war' or 'holy war' as far as the Quran is concerned.

However there is an indirect link to warring elements in context as I had discussed in another post.
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Old 03-26-2017, 10:45 PM
 
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The verses of jihad
Surah Al-Baqarah: 218
Al - Imran: 142
Al - Nisa: 95
Al - Maida: 35
Al - Anfal: 72
Al - Anfal: 74
Surah Al - Tawbah: 16
Al - Anfal: 75
Surah Al - Tawbah: 20
Surah Al - Tawbah: 24
Surah Al - Tawbah: 41
Surah Al - Tawbah: 44
Surah Al - Tawbah: 73
Surah Al - Tawbah: 81
Surah Al - Tawbah: 86
Surah Al - Tawbah: 88
Al - Nahl: 110
Surah Al - Hajj: 78
Al - Furqan: 52
Al-Ankaboot: 6
Al-Ankaboot: 6 9
Surah Muhammad: 31
Al - Kharat: 15
Al - Mumtahna: 1
Surah Al-Saff: 11
Surat Al - Tahrim: 9
For information
The word yojahd and mujahd -and jehad
It is the name of the verb
It is an act
Therefore, if I say, mjahag
This means jihad
because mjahd -doing the jihad
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:39 AM
 
4,421 posts, read 1,647,307 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your views are very narrow here.

I don't have the facts on how many are illiterate with the Quran. But those who can read the 'horse' [fact] in the Quran will influence the whole group of like-minded believers with an active evil tendencies. The resultant and consequences of the evil that manifest are real.

From what I have read, most of the jihadists can read the Quran;


Btw, I am not confining merely to "terrorists" activities. Those appx. 20% evil prone Muslims commit a wide range of evils [10% to 99.9% evilness] on being inspired by the tons of evil laden verses in the Quran [and for the pseudo, from the Ahadith].
So 20% Muslims commit a wide range of evil that are is not necessarily terror related. And if these 20% had never read Quran, 100% Muslims would have been free of doing evil things. (Right now it's 80% such Muslims as per your research)
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