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Old 12-24-2016, 10:39 PM
 
Location: Florida
2,305 posts, read 588,012 times
Reputation: 645

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You had claimed "The quran says to commit jihad against the infidel by any means necessary". You hadn't claimed that it is claimed in articles on the internet.

When challenged, "in which verse of the Qur'aan", you give me articles from the internet instead of just quoting that verse from the Qur'aan.

The article gives verse 9:33 as proof of "jihad":

Sura 9:33, simply put, predicts the conquest of Islam over all religions. Islam must dominate the world through jihad.

The word "jihad" isn't even mentioned in this verse. A brainwashed reader will think that it is in this verse without reading the verse.
Ok then what does it say?

Quote:
That just goes to proves that you are not sure about any verse of the Qur'aan that says, "commit jihad against the infidel by any means necessary".

I will help you in this issue. There are 4 verses with the word "jihad" in the Qur'aan.

I quote them all here for your information:

(25:52) So do not obey the disbelievers, and strive against them with the Qur'an a great jihad.

(9:24) Say, "If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your relatives, wealth which you have obtained, commerce wherein you fear decline, and dwellings with which you are pleased are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger and jihad in His cause, then wait until Allah executes His command.

(22:78:1)
And strive for Allah with the jihad due to Him. He has chosen you and has not placed upon you in the religion any difficulty. [It is] the religion of your father, Abraham. Allah named you “Muslims” before [in former scriptures].

(60:1)
O you who have believed, do not take My enemies and your enemies as allies, extending to them affection while they have disbelieved in what came to you of the truth, having driven out the Prophet and yourselves [only] because you believe in Allah , your Lord. If you have come out for jihad in My cause and seeking means to My approval.

Other verses do not say "jihad" but "jahad". You mentioned only "jihad" because that's what you have been hearing from the politicians and the media. You have been brainwashed to believe that it is "jihad" and not "jahad".
What's the difference?
Quote:
Not one of the above 4 verses with the word "jihad" in them is saying "to commit jihad against the infidel by any means necessary".
I'm pretty sure there won't be a verse were it literally says "commit jihad by any means necessary" but the concept is there as my links show.

Quote:
Your claim is false and is a result of you being brainwashed by the politicians and the media.
It's only false if you try to find a verse with the exact verbiage I used.

Quote:
In order to understand "jihad" as well as "jahad", one must understand the circumstances when these verses were revealed and what is meant by both "jihad" and "jahad". Both are related, one is noun and the other verb. None of them are meant to be attacking infidels like driving trucks into peaceful infidels.
It certainly does mean to attack other faiths. And even if it didn't the quran says to kill the infidel.
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Old 12-24-2016, 10:41 PM
 
Location: Florida
2,305 posts, read 588,012 times
Reputation: 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You have to quote the relevant verse first, even here.
Alright.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to claim that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous - the actual Arabic words for persecution (idtihad) - and oppression (a variation of "z-l-m") do not appear in the verse. The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.
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Old 12-24-2016, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This has been one of the most repetitious themes brought forth by non-Muslims in this forum. It goes on ad-infinitum until it reaches ad-Nauseous

Every reference of physical war in the Qur'an has been in regards to specific battles. These specific battles are covered quite well in Surat 5 and 9

To understand the hows and why's of the Qur'an one has to study the times and era each Discourse was revealed.
I believe you got the above wrong.

In the Quran, Allah stated why the Stories of Old (Biblical and others] are told, example of many such verses,
2:252. These [stories] are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth, and Lo! thou art [one] of the number of (Our) messengers;

20:99. Thus relate Who unto thee (Muhammad) some tidings [Biblical stories] of that which happened of old, and We have given thee from Our presence a Reminder.

64:5. Hath not the story reached you of those [infidels of old] who disbelieved of old and so did taste the ill effects of their [infidels'] conduct, and theirs will be a painful doom.

11:120. And all that We relate unto thee of the Story of the [past] Messengers is in order that thereby We may make firm thy heart. And herein hath come unto thee the Truth and an exhortation and a reminder for believers.
From all the Stories of Old, the point is the conveyance of general principles and not the minute details that happened eons ago.
The general theme is the infidels of old disbelieved, denied the messenger and did all that are against Allah expectation, therefore they and their towns were warred against and destroyed via genocides.
The Stories told in the Quran in relation to Muhammad's time served the same purpose [in addition to the Stories of Old] to remind the present Muslims and they are expect to response and comply with whatever is stipulated in the Quran-Only.

Quote:
To understand the hows and why's of the Qur'an one has to study the times and era each Discourse was revealed.
There is no way one can ever get the true stories from historical records of those age.
In addition, if the stories of battles and their events must be restricted to the time they happened, then such stories should not have been included in an immutable book that is supposed be applicable eternally.

Then the verses I listed above in relation to why the Stories of Old are told be be useless.

Therefore all the stories in the Quran [old and recent during Muhammad's time] are supposed to convey the necessary principles to all Muslims to reminder and act upon where the situation justify.

The principles imbued in the Stories of Old and recent consist of the advocating and condoning of aggression against infidels under various justifications.

The critical issue is these justifications are very vague which results in the reality of the current tsunamis of evils and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone. The evidence of this is so glaring.

Based on evidence from the Quran, there is no way one can window-dress the Quran with glowing praise. The Quran-Only and Islam must acknowledge it is PARTLY to be blame.

I don't blame any Muslim, as even if they do commit evils as inspired by the verses in the Quran, they are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency which is not their fault.
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Old 12-25-2016, 01:34 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 664,802 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Fortunately I have a database to note that actually your presentation is inaccurate.

The article above is about "jihad" in the context of warfare.
The 9:33 is merely a side point to support one of the fundamental basis of jihad, i.e. world domination as propounded in the Quran [there are verses to support this].


Taking into account of the whole Quran you are wrong on this and is misleading.

The root of 'jihad' is JHD with its various sets of words with different meanings.
Within JHD there is a set of words belong to struggle, strive, endeavor, and the likes within an aggressive warfare ethos.

This JHD words related to the warfare ethos are of the Verb Type III. There are many type of verbs.

These words are;
Jahada - verb type III -perfect
Yujahidu - verb type III - imperfect
Jahid - verb type III - imperative
Jihad - verb type III - verbal noun
Mujahid -- verb type III -active participle
When the word "jihad" is used in relation to the evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims, it a general term that encompass the above set of Verb Type III. The general public would not engage in such detail linguistics matters.

You are wrong to state that 'jihad' is merely a noun. It is a verbal noun.
Verbal noun = a noun formed by inflection of a verb and partly sharing its constructions, such as smoking in "smoking is forbidden."
Of the four verses for 'jihad' (verb type III - verbal noun), the 'jihad' in 22:78 relate to general striving. The jihad in 9:24 refer to striving within an aggressive war ethos.
The 'jihad' in 25:52 and 60:1 has a greater degree of aggression against non-believers.
In addition your translation of 25:52 and 60:1 is inaccurate and insufficient, i.e.
25:52. So obey not the disbelievers [infidels], but strive [jihad] against them [infidels] herewith with a great endeavour.
Note the implication of 'striving against infidels' as a verbal noun has antagonistic element in that warfare on text.

60:1 is worst, i.e.
60:1. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Choose not My enemy [infidels] and your enemy [infidels] for friends*.
Do ye [Muslims] give them [infidels] friendship [] [tul'qūna ilayhim offering them] [love, bonding, bil-mawadati بِالْمَوَدَّةِ و د د ] when they [infidels] disbelieve in that [revelation Quran] truth which hath come unto you [Muslims], driving out the messenger and you [Muslims] because ye [Muslims] believe in Allah, your Lord?
If ye [Muslims] have come forth to strive [jihad] in My way and seeking My good pleasure, (show them [infidels] not friendship).
Do ye [Muslims] show friendship unto them [infidels] in secret, when I am best Aware of what ye [Muslims] hide and what ye proclaim?
And whosoever [Muslim] doeth it among you, be verily hath strayed from the right way.
In the above context, friends [awliyaa] is not related to allies, guardian, protector as Muslims try to deflect so often.
You have excluded the phrase "tul'qūna ilayhim bil-mawadati بِالْمَوَدَّةِ و د د " as if to hide something for whatever the reason.

In the context of offering them love/bonding "tul'qūna ilayhim bil-mawadati بِالْمَوَدَّةِ و د د " the more likely context is in term and context of general friendship and not re allies, protector, guardian, and the likes.

In 60:1 a Muslim cannot even express "friendship" in terms of "bil-mawadati بِالْمَوَدَّةِ و د د" to non-Muslims because Allah is omniscience, i.e. all-knowing and know what is in the mind of all beings. According to 60:1 a Muslim would have strayed from the right way if he/she befriends non-Muslims, thus go to Hell.

Can you prove me wrong on my interpretation of 60:1?


Here are the rest of the verses [Pickthall] with 'jihad' in its various Verb Type III groups. I don't have time to explain but one will note these verses are all used within a warfare ethos to inspire SOME evil prone Muslims against infidels;

Jahada - verb type III -perfect
2:218. Lo! Those [Muslims] who believe, and those [Muslims] who emigrate (to escape the persecution) and strive [Jahada*] in the way of Allah, these [Muslims] have hope of Allah's mercy. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

8:72. Lo! those [Muslims] who believed and left their homes [emigrated to Medina] and strove [jahada] with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah, and ….

9:88. But the messenger and those [Muslims] who believe with him strive [jahada] with their wealth and their lives [wa-anfusihim]. Such are they [Muslims] for whom are the good things. Such are they [Muslims] who are the successful. [in this world and on the day of judgment] [True Muslims]

16:110. Then lo! thy Lord for those [Muslims] who become fugitives [from Mecca] after they had been persecuted, and then fought [jāhadū; jihad] and were steadfast lo! thy Lord afterward is (for them) indeed Forgiving, Merciful
Verb Type III imperfect
5:54. ..., stern toward disbelievers [infidels], striving [yujahidu*] in the way of Allah and fearing not the blame of any blamer. [*verb III imperfect]
Verb Type III imperative
6:9. O Prophet! Strive [jāhidi] against the disbelievers [infidels] and the hypocrites, and be stern with them [infidels] . Hell will be their [infidels] home, a hapless journey's end.
Jihad - verb type III - verbal noun
25:52. So obey not the disbelievers [infidels], but strive [jihad] against them [infidels] herewith with a great endeavour.

60:1. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Choose not My enemy [infidels] and your enemy [infidels] for friends*.
Do ye [Muslims] give them [infidels] friendship [] [tul'qūna ilayhim offering them] [love, bonding, bil-mawadati بِالْمَوَدَّةِ و د د ] when they [infidels] disbelieve in that [revelation Quran] truth which hath come unto you [Muslims], driving out the messenger and you [Muslims] because ye [Muslims] believe in Allah, your Lord?
If ye [Muslims] have come forth to strive [jihad] in My way and seeking My good pleasure, (show them [infidels] not friendship).
Do ye [Muslims] show friendship unto them [infidels] in secret, when I am best Aware of what ye [Muslims] hide and what ye proclaim?
And whosoever [Muslim] doeth it among you, be verily hath strayed from the right way
.

Mujahid -- verb type III -active participle
4:95. Those [Muslims] of the believers who sit still, other than those [Muslims] who have a (disabling) hurt, are not on an equality with those who strive [l-mujāhidīna: Muslims] in the way of Allah with their wealth and lives [wa-anfusihim].
Allah hath conferred on those [Muslims] who strive with their wealth and lives a rank above the sedentary. Unto each Allah hath promised good, but He hath bestowed on those who strive [l-mujāhidīna: Muslims fighters] a great reward above the sedentary; [inspire, trigger Jihadists to fight]

31. And verily We shall try you [Muslims] till We know those [l-mujāhidīna: Muslims] of you who strive [jahada] hard (for the cause of Allah) and the steadfast, and till We test your [Muslim's] record.
From the above verses one will note they do inspire the evil prone to take to the sword based on various justifications in the Quran.
The justifications for 'jihad' are very vague and the sensitivity in the vague interpretations compel the very zealous to please Allah [to avoid Hell,] by complying with the gist of the above and many other evil laden verses.

The most critical issue is NO ONE ON EARTH can judge whether their very marginal interpretations are right or wrong, thus no one has any authority to stop and prevent them from committing evils and violence on non-Muslims and even Muslims who are deemed astray by them.
Thank you for your efforts to find the truth
Although you do not speak Arabic, but you are trying to provide an explanation to the word jihad and Mjhad
This is the linguistic aspect
This aspect of any linguistic aspect in the translation of the word Jihad and Mujahid
Reason is misleading
This is what Adavh his colleague Khalifa
Who does not speak Arabic well
This is located in the problematic misinformation
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Old 12-25-2016, 01:38 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 664,802 times
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كتب عليكم القتال =Holy fighting

These words of the Koran
Fighting written on Muslims
Meaning it is of divine orders
For this reason, Muslims fight
It is the teachings of the Koran my friends
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Old 12-25-2016, 02:35 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believe you got the above wrong.
Woodrow LI got it right and you are disputing in vain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the Quran, Allah stated why the Stories of Old (Biblical and others] are told, example of many such verses,
2:252. These [stories] are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth, and Lo! thou art [one] of the number of (Our) messengers;

20:99. Thus relate Who unto thee (Muhammad) some tidings [Biblical stories] of that which happened of old, and We have given thee from Our presence a Reminder.

64:5. Hath not the story reached you of those [infidels of old] who disbelieved of old and so did taste the ill effects of their [infidels'] conduct, and theirs will be a painful doom.

11:120. And all that We relate unto thee of the Story of the [past] Messengers is in order that thereby We may make firm thy heart. And herein hath come unto thee the Truth and an exhortation and a reminder for believers.
The last verse gives the reason for these stories, "thereby We may make firm thy heart". It does not say, "so that you may drive a truck into peaceful infidels" or "so that you may commit suicide with a bomb".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From all the Stories of Old, the point is the conveyance of general principles and not the minute details that happened eons ago.
Driving a truck into shoppers or exploding a bomb in a church is certainly not part of general principles anywhere in the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The general theme is the infidels of old disbelieved, denied the messenger and did all that are against Allah expectation, therefore they and their towns were warred against and destroyed via genocides.
There isn't even one verse in the Qur'aan that tells us to wage war against those peaceful infidels and destroy them via genocide. You are making it up with words like "warred", "destroyed" and "genocide". The Qur'aan is clear as to how not to be unkind and unjust with peaceful infidels:

[60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

[60.9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of
(your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Stories told in the Quran in relation to Muhammad's time served the same purpose [in addition to the Stories of Old] to remind the present Muslims and they are expect to response and comply with whatever is stipulated in the Quran-Only.
60:8-9 in the Qur'aan are there to remind present and future Muslims how to deal with peaceful people who have not waged war on you Muslims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is no way one can ever get the true stories from historical records of those age.
When your mind is closed to verses 60:8-9, you will never get anything from the Qur'aan. Can you see destruction and genocide of peaceful infidels in these verses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In addition, if the stories of battles and their events must be restricted to the time they happened, then such stories should not have been included in an immutable book that is supposed be applicable eternally.
These stories are there so that infidels learn not to wage wars on Muslims because of their religion (deen).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Then the verses I listed above in relation to why the Stories of Old are told be be useless.
There is nothing in those verses about driving truck into peaceful shoppers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore all the stories in the Quran [old and recent during Muhammad's time] are supposed to convey the necessary principles to all Muslims to reminder and act upon where the situation justify.
Exactly the point; where the situation justifies. No war if they do not wage war on you and be peaceful when they are peaceful with you, are the necessary principles in the Qur'aan. I am surprised that you do not see these principles in the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The principles imbued in the Stories of Old and recent consist of the advocating and condoning of aggression against infidels under various justifications.
You have deliberately twisted your understanding of these stories. You should have stated, The principles imbued in the Stories of Old and recent consist of defending when there is physical aggression (war is waged) against you because of your deen. and be peaceful with them when they are peaceful with you.

You make false claim about the Qur'aan when you claim that these stories mean the Qur'aan advocates and condones aggression against infidels. You know very well the "various justifications" but would not dare quote them from the Qur'aan for obvious reason. These will not serve your stance here against the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The critical issue is these justifications are very vague which results in the reality of the current tsunamis of evils and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone. The evidence of this is so glaring.
Nonsense!
60:8-9 are in no way vague unless you can't read them. A vast majority of Muslims is peaceful. It's because of teachings of the Qur'aan to be peaceful if war is not waged against us because of us being Muslims (because of our deen).
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Old 12-25-2016, 03:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Woodrow LI got it right and you are disputing in vain.

The last verse gives the reason for these stories, "thereby We may make firm thy heart". It does not say, "so that you may drive a truck into peaceful infidels" or "so that you may commit suicide with a bomb".

Driving a truck into shoppers or exploding a bomb in a church is certainly not part of general principles anywhere in the Qur'aan.

There isn't even one verse in the Qur'aan that tells us to wage war against those peaceful infidels and destroy them via genocide. You are making it up with words like "warred", "destroyed" and "genocide". The Qur'aan is clear as to how not to be unkind and unjust with peaceful infidels:

[60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

[60.9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of
(your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

60:8-9 in the Qur'aan are there to remind present and future Muslims how to deal with peaceful people who have not waged war on you Muslims.

When your mind is closed to verses 60:8-9, you will never get anything from the Qur'aan. Can you see destruction and genocide of peaceful infidels in these verses?

These stories are there so that infidels learn not to wage wars on Muslims because of their religion (deen).

There is nothing in those verses about driving truck into peaceful shoppers.

Exactly the point; where the situation justifies. No war if they do not wage war on you and be peaceful when they are peaceful with you, are the necessary principles in the Qur'aan. I am surprised that you do not see these principles in the Qur'aan.

You have deliberately twisted your understanding of these stories. You should have stated, The principles imbued in the Stories of Old and recent consist of defending when there is physical aggression (war is waged) against you because of your deen. and be peaceful with them when they are peaceful with you.

You make false claim about the Qur'aan when you claim that these stories mean the Qur'aan advocates and condones aggression against infidels. You know very well the "various justifications" but would not dare quote them from the Qur'aan for obvious reason. These will not serve your stance here against the Qur'aan.

Nonsense!
60:8-9 are in no way vague unless you can't read them. A vast majority of Muslims is peaceful. It's because of teachings of the Qur'aan to be peaceful if war is not waged against us because of us being Muslims (because of our deen).
Read the Surah Muhammad
Verse 35

Be not slack so as to cry for peace and you also incline and God is with you and will not Iturkm your business
interpret bin kther
Then the Almighty said to His believing slaves: {not slacken} No Tdafoa all enemies, {and to cry for peace} any appeasement and pacifism and put the fight between you and the infidels in the event of your strength, so he said: {And you also incline} ie if Alokm on your enemy, either if The strength of those infidels and frequent for all Muslims.
This interpretation of Muslims
Explanation ----
If you, O Muslims should have the power not to call for peace
But it must fight the infidels and polytheists
For this reason, Muslims seek power even fight and kill the infidels
This is the one who has done the Berlin criminal and criminal Turkey
And Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Abu Bakr Aalsidik all the caliphs
In all the history of Muslims there are wars and killing
Aisha, wife of the Prophet
He fought in the Battle of the Camel
The princesses from Islamic wars
Do you know why I fought Aisha, wife of the Prophet
Is Aisha was also not understand the Koran, the wife of the Prophet
Islamic religion is a religion of fighting and war and destruction
That produces terrorists continuously
In all ages there are terrorists
And do you know Alahjaj son Yusuf
History is full of wars
Because of the Koran and the teachings of the Koran
This will keep terrorism in the world
It is a form of evil
Of the teachings of the Koran
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Old 12-25-2016, 04:42 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maccabee 2A View Post
The quran says to commit jihad against the infidel by any means necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Are you sure the Qur'aan says so about "jihad"? In which verse of the Qur'aan?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Absolutely. PM me any verse which mentions Jihad or that you don't understand/doesn't sit well and I'll be happy to give you the historical context and common scholarly understanding and application.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You have to quote the relevant verse first, even here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maccabee 2A View Post
Alright.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to claim that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous - the actual Arabic words for persecution (idtihad) - and oppression (a variation of "z-l-m") do not appear in the verse. The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.
You utterly failed to back up your claim that the quran says to commit jihad against the infidel by any means necessary.

None of these verses you referred to mention the word "jihad" and none say, "commit jihad against the infidel by any means necessary".

So once more, which verse of the Qur'aan is saying, "to commit jihad against the infidel by any means necessary"?

Unless you quote a verse that says, "to commit jihad against the infidel by any means necessary, you had lied here about what is the Qur'aan saying.

You have been listening to politicians and media churning out the word "jihad" to brainwash the masses. You should have understood the Qur'aan first before making any claim as to what it says.
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Old 12-25-2016, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believe you got the above wrong.

In the Quran, Allah stated why the Stories of Old (Biblical and others] are told, example of many such verses,
2:252. These [stories] are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth, and Lo! thou art [one] of the number of (Our) messengers;

20:99. Thus relate Who unto thee (Muhammad) some tidings [Biblical stories] of that which happened of old, and We have given thee from Our presence a Reminder.

64:5. Hath not the story reached you of those [infidels of old] who disbelieved of old and so did taste the ill effects of their [infidels'] conduct, and theirs will be a painful doom.

11:120. And all that We relate unto thee of the Story of the [past] Messengers is in order that thereby We may make firm thy heart. And herein hath come unto thee the Truth and an exhortation and a reminder for believers.
From all the Stories of Old, the point is the conveyance of general principles and not the minute details that happened eons ago.
The general theme is the infidels of old disbelieved, denied the messenger and did all that are against Allah expectation, therefore they and their towns were warred against and destroyed via genocides.
The Stories told in the Quran in relation to Muhammad's time served the same purpose [in addition to the Stories of Old] to remind the present Muslims and they are expect to response and comply with whatever is stipulated in the Quran-Only.

There is no way one can ever get the true stories from historical records of those age.
In addition, if the stories of battles and their events must be restricted to the time they happened, then such stories should not have been included in an immutable book that is supposed be applicable eternally.

Then the verses I listed above in relation to why the Stories of Old are told be be useless.

Therefore all the stories in the Quran [old and recent during Muhammad's time] are supposed to convey the necessary principles to all Muslims to reminder and act upon where the situation justify.

The principles imbued in the Stories of Old and recent consist of the advocating and condoning of aggression against infidels under various justifications.

The critical issue is these justifications are very vague which results in the reality of the current tsunamis of evils and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone. The evidence of this is so glaring.

Based on evidence from the Quran, there is no way one can window-dress the Quran with glowing praise. The Quran-Only and Islam must acknowledge it is PARTLY to be blame.

I don't blame any Muslim, as even if they do commit evils as inspired by the verses in the Quran, they are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency which is not their fault.
I believe you got the above wrong.

In the Quran, Allah stated why the Stories of Old (Biblical and others] are told, example of many such verses,


I stand corrected. I did overlook there are stories from past scriptures in the Qur'an.

One comment I disagree with (Not to infer I agree or disagree with the others) is:

There is no way one can ever get the true stories from historical records of those age.
In addition, if the stories of battles and their events must be restricted to the time they happened, then such stories should not have been included in an immutable book that is supposed be applicable eternally.


There are 2 things that are immutable and applicable eternally:

1. When the Qur'an is recited with correct Tajweed, it is the exact words of Allaah(swt) as revealed to Muhammad(saws)

2. The Message of the Qur'an is "There is only one God and only He is to be worshiped."

Many things in the Qur'an are/were for specific people at specific times. Often as illustrations and examples so we may see the effects of their choices.

The critical issue is these justifications are very vague which results in the reality of the current tsunamis of evils and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone. The evidence of this is so glaring.

Based on evidence from the Quran, there is no way one can window-dress the Quran with glowing praise. The Quran-Only and Islam must acknowledge it is PARTLY to be blame.


It is the responsibility of the individual of all people to verify all things. If a person is of the impression that the Qur'an permits or justifies evils and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone they need to first come to the understanding that the Qur'an condemns such action and that those who do such are misusing Islam to satisfy their own desires, not to serve Allaah(swt)
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Old 12-25-2016, 10:08 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 664,802 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I believe you got the above wrong.

In the Quran, Allah stated why the Stories of Old (Biblical and others] are told, example of many such verses,


I stand corrected. I did overlook there are stories from past scriptures in the Qur'an.

One comment I disagree with (Not to infer I agree or disagree with the others) is:

There is no way one can ever get the true stories from historical records of those age.
In addition, if the stories of battles and their events must be restricted to the time they happened, then such stories should not have been included in an immutable book that is supposed be applicable eternally.


There are 2 things that are immutable and applicable eternally:

1. When the Qur'an is recited with correct Tajweed, it is the exact words of Allaah(swt) as revealed to Muhammad(saws)

2. The Message of the Qur'an is "There is only one God and only He is to be worshiped."

Many things in the Qur'an are/were for specific people at specific times. Often as illustrations and examples so we may see the effects of their choices.

The critical issue is these justifications are very vague which results in the reality of the current tsunamis of evils and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone. The evidence of this is so glaring.

Based on evidence from the Quran, there is no way one can window-dress the Quran with glowing praise. The Quran-Only and Islam must acknowledge it is PARTLY to be blame.


It is the responsibility of the individual of all people to verify all things. If a person is of the impression that the Qur'an permits or justifies evils and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone they need to first come to the understanding that the Qur'an condemns such action and that those who do such are misusing Islam to satisfy their own desires, not to serve Allaah(swt)
1-This is slanderous and misleading
Koran has seven readings
It has seven characters
The original and the Koran is written in Arabic letters with no punctuation characters and movements syntactical
So the current Holy Koran differs from the original
In Figure
Stage put points on the characters in the era of the Umayyad Caliph Abdul Malik bin Marwan

as-----Othman Ibn Affan burned a Koran thirty dogwood
They were different
Throwaway verses of the Koran being eaten by an animal
You should read the verses states lost a large feeding2-
A Muslim does not worship God all but worshiped Muhammad with God
Mohammed participate with God in everything
If you say that God is the only one
That is not enough even became a Muslim
But should that Muhammad messinger good
So here subscription between the Creator and the creature
And Islam sends a worship ceremony in Hajj
They worship the Black Stone in Mecca
3-God in the Koran forget
4-And God in the Koran Sly
And God in the Koran preaches women to Prophet Muhammad
5-States verdicts can not be changed
6-The verses of combat, which calls for hatred is one of the constants of the Koran
Jihad and fighting
Of the constants of the Koran
And not a point in time
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