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Old 12-15-2016, 04:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Why on earth would God need anyone to serve Him???? He is GOD!!!Sheesh!
What does the word "serve" mean here? Can you please explain in your own understanding?
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Old 12-15-2016, 06:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Why on earth would God need anyone to serve Him???? He is GOD!!!Sheesh!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
What does the word "serve" mean here? Can you please explain in your own understanding?
Serve means "perform duties or services for." Why on earth would God need mere humans to do anything for Him????
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Old 12-15-2016, 10:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Serve means "perform duties or services for." Why on earth would God need mere humans to do anything for Him????
Perhaps you are thinking "serve" means as if God is in a restaurant who has ordered champagne and now he needs it being served.

The serve means to "worship God and try to live a rightous life (willingly and obediently) where you try to stay away from what's forbidden and try to use your time and energy in what's recomended, including spreading peace for all and be kind to all creation"

To answer your original question, why does God need humans to serve him?

No sir, God does not "need" humans to serve him. It's the humans who "need" to serve God in order to attain his mercy.

As Quran says in 17:7 - ""If you do good, you do good for yourselves; and if you do evil, [you do it] to yourselves."

It does NOT make a difference to God whether you serve him or not. But it WILL make a difference to YOU whether you served God or not.

The entire humanity can commit to serve God, and it wouldn't make a difference to God. And the entire humanity can deny God, and it wouldn't make a difference to God.

God is not at the mercy of "needs". It's humans who have "needs".

Last edited by GoCardinals; 12-15-2016 at 11:32 PM..
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Old 12-16-2016, 04:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
No sir, God does not "need" humans to serve him. It's the humans who "need" to serve God in order to attain his mercy.
Exactly the point!

Allah did not need to create humans to serve Him. There were angels serving Him perfectly before humans were created. Therefore, serving Him was not the purpose for which humans were created.

Peace

Khalif
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
God created man in paradise
And falling to the ground or expulsion from the garden is the result of violating God's commands
It seems as if you are Islam expert here. So, would you care to tell us where was that paradise (you mentioned) or the garden; on earth or somewhere up there in the heavens? Did humans (Adam and Eve) fall on earth from up there without having even a parachute?
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Why on earth would God need anyone to serve Him???? He is GOD!!!Sheesh!
Thank you.

God did not create humans to serve Him but to be Khalifah (vicegerent) on earth. To be Khalifah is to be honored as the best creation on earth.

It is for us humans (the best creation on earth) to protect/safeguard everything on earth.

Peace

Khalif
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Old 12-16-2016, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Thank you.

God did not create humans to serve Him but to be Khalifah (vicegerent) on earth. To be Khalifah is to be honored as the best creation on earth.

It is for us humans (the best creation on earth) to protect/safeguard everything on earth.

Peace

Khalif
Re 51:56 it is critical that Muslims [especially] and others must understand the correct interpretation of the verse. To do so one must start with the supposedly original intended verse in Arabic and its transliterations and word for word in English [since this is a forum in English] as in the following;

51:56 وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ

51:56 Wama khalaqtu aljinna waal-insa illa liyaAAbudooni

51:56 And not I-have-created the jinn and the mankind except that-they-ya'budu-Me.
The critical word here is 'ya'budu' from the root ABD giving the popular word abd, i.e. slave.

The term ya'budu cover a range of the following concepts;
serve, worship, adore, venerate, accept the impression of a thing, obey with submissiveness or humility, approve, apply, devote, obedience, slave, keep to inseparably, subdue, assemble together, enslave.
Therefore to translate 'ya'budu' as one word 'serve' or 'worship' is limited and lead to misinterpretations.

The concept of 'ya'budu' is an imperative and inherent term within the relation between Allah and all his created beings and things on Earth and in the Universe.

The main purpose why all things and living things created were to ya'budu Allah.
Therefore it is only logical that humankind was created to ya'budu Allah as highlighted in 51:56 with the following terms and phrases;
1. The very personal pronouns of "I" and "Me". Allah do not use this freely except to highlight critical matters.

2. The 'I did not create humankind and Jinn."
This is an absurd or false statement because humans were created by Allah and are in existence. I cannot vouch for jinn in this case, but it not relevant for the OP where the focus is on humans.
Whilst this 'I did not create humankind' is absurd and false, it is nevertheless relevant to emphasize the purpose of creation, but it has to be complimented by the term 'except'.

3. The term 'created' [past tense] has an inherent 'purpose'. Nothing is created without a purpose in the context of the Quran.

4. From the perspective of linguistics, Allah has used the principles of the double negative to highlight the the purpose why humans were created.

5. 'Except' has multiple grammatical purposes but in the case of 51:56 it used as a balance in the negative sense in negating 'I [Allah] did not create humans' to culminate in a positive.

51:56 And not I-have-created the jinn and the mankind except that-they-ya'budu-Me.
Based on the principle of double negative and thus ignoring the negative elements, the basic message [without emphasis] from the above is thus;
51:56 And xxx I-have-created the jinn and the mankind xxx that-they-ya'budu-Me.
i.e.
51:56 And I-have-created the jinn and the mankind that-they-ya'budu-Me[/b].
Therefore the final critical message of 51:56 is
51:56 And I-have-created [with the purpose {as implied}] the jinn and the mankind that-they-ya'budu-Me[/b].


In Khalif's interpretation he has deceptively interpret 51:56 [for personal and confirmation bias] as;

[51.56] And I did not create Jinn and humans to serve (anyone else) except Me.

In the above Khalif had messed up the phrase "that-they-ya'budu-Me" with "to serve (anyone else) except Me" resulting in a significant change in meaning.
In addition the use of 'serve' is misleading to give the sense that Allah need to be served. It is not wise to translate 'ya'budu' merely as serve or worship which could end up narrowly as salat. The term 'ya'budu' should be retained but with an explanatory note to its detailed and extensive meaning.

The correct interpretation of 51:56 is the following;
51:56 And I-have-created [with the purpose {as implied}] the jinn and the mankind that-they-ya'budu-Me.
When I searched via google, I noted 100% of searches I have done agreed with my views.
Khalif's interpretation [flimsy] is 1 against the majority.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-16-2016 at 11:40 PM..
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Old 12-17-2016, 04:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Re 51:56 it is critical that Muslims [especially] and others must understand the correct interpretation of the verse. To do so one must start with the supposedly original intended verse in Arabic and its transliterations and word for word in English [since this is a forum in English] as in the following;

51:56 وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ

51:56 Wama khalaqtu aljinna waal-insa illa liyaAAbudooni

51:56 And not I-have-created the jinn and the mankind except that-they-ya'budu-Me.
The critical word here is 'ya'budu' from the root ABD giving the popular word abd, i.e. slave.
To begin with, you haven't kept to your word and translated the full verse in only English. you did not translate in English as:

51:56 And not I-have-created the jinn and the mankind except that-they-be slave to-Me.

The word "abd" does not mean "slave" in English but "servant", someone who serves as in "service".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The term ya'budu cover a range of the following concepts;
serve, worship, adore, venerate, accept the impression of a thing, obey with submissiveness or humility, approve, apply, devote, obedience, slave, keep to inseparably, subdue, assemble together, enslave.
Exactly!
You cannot say ya'budu Me means slave Me otherwise you make no sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore to translate 'ya'budu' as one word 'serve' or 'worship' is limited and lead to misinterpretations.
To translate it as 'slave' is also then limited and prone to misinterpretation.

In my first post here, I had stated:

[51.50] Therefore fly to Allah, surely I am a plain warner to you from Him.
[51:51] And do not set up with Allah another god: surely I am a plain warner to you from Him.
[51.52] Thus there did not come to those before them a messenger but they said: A magician or a mad man.
[51.53] Have they charged each other with this? Nay! They are an inordinate people.
[51.54-55] Then turn your back upon them for you are not to blame; and continue to remind, for surely the reminder profits the believers.
[51.56] And I did not create Jinn and humans to serve (anyone else) except Me.

Does the verse 51:56 say that the purpose of human creation was serving/worshiping Allah

or

Does the verse 51:56 say that Allah did not create jinn and humankind to serve/worship anyone else (other gods)?

It is quite obvious to me that in this verse the subject is who to humans should serve/worship and not the purpose when creating humankind. The verse does not say that worshiping Allah was the purpose when creating human but that humans and jinn were not created to worship other gods than Allah. The difference is subtle but becomes quite apparent after some serious reflection.

Allah has chosen His words in the Qur'an precisely. If serving/worshiping Allah (Aabudoo Allah) had been the only or even the main purpose of Allah in creating humans, He would certainly have said somewhere in the Qur'an, "I created humans to serve/worship Me." But He has never said so anywhere in the Qur'an; not even in 51:56. "created not" in 51:56 is not "I created". Too many Muslims have interpreted it "I created" when it is "created not" in 51:56. People have misinterpreted the verse 51:56 by misunderstanding it that it means purpose of human creation of humans.


Not only you have not answered my question, you have ignored my rest of the post (as re-quoted above).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The main purpose why all things and living things created were to ya'budu Allah.
There isn't even one verse in the Qur'an that says, "the main purpose why all things and living things created were to ya'budu Allah".

Could you translate 'ya'budu' in English?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore it is only logical that humankind was created to ya'budu Allah as highlighted in 51:56 with the following terms and phrases;
When you state the purpose why all things and living things created were to ya'abudu Allah, despite it not being in the Qur'an, it is only logical that you will think it logical to say it is logical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
1. The very personal pronouns of "I" and "Me". Allah do not use this freely except to highlight critical matters.
It is very critical to know what is critical in the verse 51:56.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
2. The 'I did not create humankind and Jinn."
This is an absurd or false statement because humans were created by Allah and are in existence. I cannot vouch for jinn in this case, but it not relevant for the OP where the focus is on humans.
Every word in the Qur'an was precisely chosen by Allah. No word is useless in this verse. The word "jinn" is chosen for a precise reason and not for no reason.

Therefore, whatever applies to humans in this verse applies to jinn and vice versa. This is critical when it comes to understanding this verse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Whilst this 'I did not create humankind' is absurd and false, it is nevertheless relevant to emphasize the purpose of creation, but it has to be complimented by the term 'except'.
This is where you have tripped yourself. You thought that the verse is emphasizing "the purpose of creation" of jinn and humans but the verse is not emphasizing "the purpose of creation" of jinn and humans. If any purpose, it is what they were "not created for".

Please note that if you insist this verse is emphasizing the purpose of creation of humans, and jinn are included in the verse with humans, then you must insist that the purpose of creation of jinn is exactly the same as purpose of creation of humans. This is critical point when considering the purpose of creation of humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
3. The term 'created' [past tense] has an inherent 'purpose'. Nothing is created without a purpose in the context of the Quran.
The term in the verse is "not created" instead of "created".

Therefore, the purpose emphasized must also be in negative. In other words, it must not be the purpose of creation of jinn and human. To understand the verse properly, you must understand from the verse what was "not the purpose" of creation of humans and jinn. Once you do that, you understand the verse properly. This is absolutely vital.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
4. From the perspective of linguistics, Allah has used the principles of the double negative to highlight the the purpose why humans were created.
There is no double negative in the verse. There is only one negative (not" = "ma") in the verse. Except ("illa") that you think is another negative is in fact restrictive particle. You must not equate it to the negative "alla" in Arabic. We can discuss this further if you are not sure what I have stated here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
5. 'Except' has multiple grammatical purposes but in the case of 51:56 it used as a balance in the negative sense in negating 'I [Allah] did not create humans' to culminate in a positive.
"Except" is either restrictive particle or exceptive particle. It is not negative particle. It is used in this verse to balance the negative (not created) with opposite of "serve Me" (liya'budun). As a result of the word "except" included in the verse, the verse describes what was not the purpose of creation of humans and jinn.

It works like this:

"I (Allah) created not the jinn and humans except to abada Me".

"Except" ("illa") in the verse means "other than". Therefore, the verse:

51:56 I (Allah) created not the jinn and humans to abada other than Me.

"Other than Me" is other gods (idols), anyone or anything that is not "Me" (God).

Conclusion: The verse is saying that jinn and humans were not created for abada other gods.

The less able in understanding the message of 51:56 are thinking about the purpose of creation of humans and jinn when the message of the verse is what was not the purpose of creation of jinn and humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In Khalif's interpretation he has deceptively interpret 51:56 [for personal and confirmation bias] as;

[51.56] And I did not create Jinn and humans to serve (anyone else) except Me.

In the above Khalif had messed up the phrase "that-they-ya'budu-Me" with "to serve (anyone else) except Me" resulting in a significant change in meaning.
No. Continuum has messed up by changing "I created not" with "I created". It changes the meanings completely. It becomes, "I created jinn and humans to yu'budu other than Me".

The correct meanings of the verse is: I did not create jinn and humans for abada other gods.

There isn't even one verse in the Qur'an that says that the sole purpose of creating humans was so that they will abada Allah.

The purpose of human creation (to place Khalifah of Allah on earth) was declared to the angels even before the creation of Adam (first human) in 2:30.
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Old 12-17-2016, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
To begin with, you haven't kept to your word and translated the full verse in only English. you did not translate in English as:

51:56 And not I-have-created the jinn and the mankind except that-they-be slave to-Me.

The word "abd" does not mean "slave" in English but "servant", someone who serves as in "service".

Exactly!
You cannot say ya'budu Me means slave Me otherwise you make no sense.

To translate it as 'slave' is also then limited and prone to misinterpretation.
The purpose of my post is to show there is another view and perspective to the issue.

I did not promise I will translate everything into English.
As in my post above I stated 'ya'budu' in 51:56 [& elsewhere on critical issues] should not be translated as merely one word 'serve,' 'worship' or the likes but rather an explanatory note should be given to its detailed meaning.

I stated ya'budu's root is ABD which also lead to the common term 'slave' and Muslim names like ABDullah, ABDul, etc.. I did not say ya'budu = slave.

Quote:
In my first post here, I had stated:

[51.50] Therefore fly to Allah, surely I am a plain warner to you from Him.
[51:51] And do not set up with Allah another god: surely I am a plain warner to you from Him.
[51.52] Thus there did not come to those before them a messenger but they said: A magician or a mad man.
[51.53] Have they charged each other with this? Nay! They are an inordinate people.
[51.54-55] Then turn your back upon them for you are not to blame; and continue to remind, for surely the reminder profits the believers.
[51.56] And I did not create Jinn and humans to serve (anyone else) except Me.

Does the verse 51:56 say that the purpose of human creation was serving/worshiping Allah

or

Does the verse 51:56 say that Allah did not create jinn and humankind to serve/worship anyone else (other gods)?

It is quite obvious to me that in this verse the subject is who to humans should serve/worship and not the purpose when creating humankind. The verse does not say that worshiping Allah was the purpose when creating human but that humans and jinn were not created to worship other gods than Allah. The difference is subtle but becomes quite apparent after some serious reflection.

Allah has chosen His words in the Qur'an precisely. If serving/worshiping Allah (Aabudoo Allah) had been the only or even the main purpose of Allah in creating humans, He would certainly have said somewhere in the Qur'an, "I created humans to serve/worship Me." But He has never said so anywhere in the Qur'an; not even in 51:56. "created not" in 51:56 is not "I created". Too many Muslims have interpreted it "I created" when it is "created not" in 51:56. People have misinterpreted the verse 51:56 by misunderstanding it that it means purpose of human creation of humans.


Not only you have not answered my question, you have ignored my rest of the post (as re-quoted above).
The point is, I claimed your 51:56 is deceptive, that is why I am starting from the beginning with the Arabic, the transliteration and English word for word.
I don't expect the verse in Arabic to be disputed at this stage.
Except for the term 'ya'budu' which cannot be accurately translated, you may comment on the transliteration and English translations if you have a different view.


Quote:
There isn't even one verse in the Qur'an that says, "the main purpose why all things and living things created were to ya'budu Allah".
This main core primary purpose is inferred from an in depth analysis of 51:56 as I had presented above. In addition this point do not stand alone but is supported by the whole context of the 6,236 verses of the Quran.

Quote:
Could you translate 'ya'budu' in English?
In the context of 51:56, my view is the 'ya'budu' should not be translated as any translated single word, e.g. worship, serve, etc. as it can be very misleading. Therefore 'ya'budu' in 51:56 should be kept intact in its Arabic state and an explanatory note be given.

As I had stated, my post is only to open up an additional and different perspective to the issue. I don't intend to go into a detailed discussion of the more complex 'till the cows come home' issues here.
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Old 12-18-2016, 02:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The purpose of my post is to show there is another view and perspective to the issue.
In fact, that was also the purpose of my initial post in this thread; to highlight that there is another view and perspective than run-of-the-mill view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point is, I claimed your 51:56 is deceptive, that is why I am starting from the beginning with the Arabic, the transliteration and English word for word.
Stating "serve", "worship" or anything else you can think of for liya'budu, does not make it deceptive but if you take any words completely out of it and then explain what the verse is saying. That is what makes the explanation "deceptive".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This main core primary purpose is inferred from an in depth analysis of 51:56 as I had presented above. In addition this point do not stand alone but is supported by the whole context of the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
You haven't done in depth analysis of 51:56 but merely took out words from it that you perceived to be negative to reach your conclusion that you think is positive. In addition, there isn't even one verse in the Qur'an that says that humans were created for the sole purpose of abada Allah. Instead, there are many verses in the Qur'an about not taking other gods and not worshiping/serving (abada) other gods.

[29:17] Ye serve (taa'budun) instead of Allah only idols, and ye only invent a lie. Lo! Those whom ye serve (taa'budun) instead of Allah own no provision for you. So seek your provision from Allah, and serve (abudu) Him, and give thanks unto Him, (for) unto Him ye will be brought back.

The message is not to serve (abada) idols; gods other than The God (Allah).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had stated, my post is only to open up an additional and different perspective to the issue. I don't intend to go into a detailed discussion of the more complex 'till the cows come home' issues here.
This is why I had started this thread; to show there is a different perspective to the usual (run-of-the-mill) perspective to the verse.

No matter from which angle you look at the verse, it is not giving you "purpose of creation of humankind" but what humans (and jinn) were not created for (to abada other gods).

The verse 2:30 tells us that Allah said to angels (just before creating first human) that He is going to place on earth khalifatan (viceroy, vicegerent, rulers, deputies of Allah on earth with freewill and guidance from Allah). This reference was to humankind on earth as khalifah. Such khalifatan have freewill but work under the Authority of Allah. Thus humankind is "ruler" on earth over all the other earthly created beings. Jinn are not khalifah on earth but humans are even though jinn were created before any human was created. This is where the purpose of creation of humans and creation of jinn separates. This is also the reason why 51:56 is not giving you the purpose of creation of humans as jinn are also included in the verse 51:56. The only purpose of the verse 51:56 is to tell humans not to abada other gods such as idols.

Regards

Khalif
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