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Old 12-21-2016, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
If "they were not commanded to worship other (gods) than Allah"

then "they were not commanded to worship idols"
The above is basic logic.
You have change the meaning in this case from the general "other [gods) than Allah to specifically 'idols'.

The point is,
if they were not commanded to worship other [gods] than Allah,
then what are they commanded to worship?

Your "they were not commanded to worship idols" do not answer the above but merely merely replacing other (gods) than Allah with 'idols'. You could replace "other (gods) than Allah" with 'Jesus the prophet' 'Brahman' Zeus, etc.

In my case I merely remove the double negatives to reveal the intended meaning;
If "they were not commanded to worship other (gods) than Allah"
.. then,
"they were [] commanded to worship [only] Allah"
There is no change in meaning in the above.
Worship [only] Allah imply worship no other gods than Allah.
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Old 12-21-2016, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
Yes it speaks volumes as to the narcissism of humans.
The creator of existence, of time, of being, made some hairless apes to worship him? To fulfill a human need (the need for adulation, approval, of gratitude). Its simply a recapitulation of a patriarchal society of the time - the need for a human leader, or indeed just a human father, to have obedient unquestioning worshipping followers.


Ego and narcissism. Clearly a human creation - not worthy of, nor attributable to, the creator of existence.


The unlikeliness of that is beyond calculation.
There are SOME truths to your above views.
The God as presented in the Quran demands to be 'served' purely because the Quran was authored by a person or group of people who were very autocratic, dictatorial, ego and narcissistic.

However the above view is off topic.
The topic is [within the Islam-box] whether verse 51:56 of the Quran meant;
'the purpose Allah created jinn and humankind to serve Allah.'

As I had highlighted 'serve' is a very limited translation of 'ya'budu.'
Ya'budu is more than 'to serve,' to worship, to obey, to submit, etc.

Btw, to topic do you have any views whether 51:56 below [and OP] contain a double-negative element, i.e. 'not' [alla] is obviously negative and 'except' a subtler negative element as I have proven with examples above.
51:56 And not I [Allah] have created the jinn and the mankind except that they ya'budu [serve, worship, etc.] Me.
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Old 12-22-2016, 03:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You have change the meaning in this case from the general "other [gods) than Allah to specifically 'idols'.
It is still general other gods. I can extend it to all other gods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point is,
if they were not commanded to worship other [gods] than Allah,
then what are they commanded to worship?
That can be found in another verse. In this verse, stick to what they were "not commanded".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your "they were not commanded to worship idols" do not answer the above but merely merely replacing other (gods) than Allah with 'idols'. You could replace "other (gods) than Allah" with 'Jesus the prophet' 'Brahman' Zeus, etc.
No problem.
I can add, Jesus, cow, money, gold, priests and lords as well. Basically anything that comes within the shirk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In my case I merely remove the double negatives to reveal the intended meaning;
If "they were not commanded to worship other (gods) than Allah"
.. then,
"they were [] commanded to worship [only] Allah"
There is no change in meaning in the above.
Worship [only] Allah imply worship no other gods than Allah.
The verse is not saying who they were "commanded" to worship but who and what they were "not commanded".
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Old 12-22-2016, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is still general other gods. I can extend it to all other gods.

That can be found in another verse. In this verse, stick to what they were "not commanded".

No problem.
I can add, Jesus, cow, money, gold, priests and lords as well. Basically anything that comes within the shirk.

The verse is not saying who they were "commanded" to worship but who and what they were "not commanded".
Here you are running a foul of linguistic and grammar.

The basic message is
"they were commanded to worship Allah"
this is generally understood from the Quran.

The "not" and "except" are merely grammatical elements to add emphasis.

In this context, IF you introduce "not" then you must include "except", "but", or "other-than", otherwise it would be;

"they were not commanded to worship Allah"

so it must be

"they were not commanded except to worship Allah"

It is like a conditional "IF" where it you used a conditional "IF" you have to follow it with "then" i.e. an "IF-THEN" situation.

In this case we have a "alla"-"illa" situation in the context of 51:56.

Another point;
When you read the Quran in context and if your come across "not commanded" [by Allah] you must straight away think of the default positive, i.e. "Commanded by Allah" which is more pertinent to a Muslim.

Therefore,
"they were not commanded except to worship Allah"
must be reconciled with
"they were commanded to worship Allah"

A responsibility reader will find all such related verses and reconcile the positive and negative verses.

An analysis of all the related positive and negative verses will reveal both has the same basic meaning, i.e

"they were commanded to worship Allah"
and the difference is merely the emphasis which can be excluded without changing the basic meaning of the verses.

Note even in the case of 'not to worship idols' what is most critical is still "they were command not to worship idols".
"not commanded by Allah" is not a critical point as Allah did not command on many things.
Thus "commanded" is most critical.

Therefore when one encountered a not-commanded, what is critical is to find out 'what is commanded.'

As such in a phrase like
"they were not commanded except to worship Allah"
what is most critical is the positive equivalent, i.e.
"they were commanded to worship Allah"
the above positive can be obtained by removing the emphasis, alla and illa.

The above principle is the same for 51:56;
51:56 And not I have created the jinn and the mankind except that they ya'budu Me.
The not-created [negative] is not as critical but what is most critical is the positive equivalent, i.e. remove the "alla" and "illa" to arrive at;
51:56 And [] I have created the jinn and the mankind [] that they ya'budu Me.
The critical elements in 51:56 are "created" [implied with purpose] and 'ya'budu Me' [default alone].
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Old 12-23-2016, 03:53 AM
 
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You are repeating the same again and again and again.
***********************************************

"they were not commanded except to worship Allah" is the same as "they were not commanded to worship except Allah" is the same as "they were not commanded to worship other gods".

The verse does not mean that they were commanded nothing but to worship Allah. We know very well that we have been commanded to do many things.

Therefore, the actual verse simply means, they were not commanded to worship other gods like idols.
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Old 12-23-2016, 10:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
51:56 And not I have created the jinn and the mankind except that they ya'budu Me.
The not-created [negative] is not as critical but what is most critical is the positive equivalent, i.e. remove the "alla" and "illa" to arrive at;
51:56 And [] I have created the jinn and the mankind [] that they ya'budu Me.
There isn't even one verse in the Qur'aan with explicit message:

And I have created the jinn and the mankind that they ya'budu Me.

You have searched the Qur'aan looking for such a verse. Do you even know why there is no such explicit verse in the Qur'aan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The critical elements in 51:56 are "created" [implied with purpose] and 'ya'budu Me' [default alone].
Every word of Allah is critical. The critical message of the verse 51:56 is jinn and humans were "not created" to worship other gods.
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Old 12-23-2016, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There isn't even one verse in the Qur'aan with explicit message:

And I have created the jinn and the mankind that they ya'budu Me.

You have searched the Qur'aan looking for such a verse. Do you even know why there is no such explicit verse in the Qur'aan?
I have answered this in the other post.
You can get the central message from a combination of many relevant verses, e.g. 6:102 and many others and the final conclusive verse is 51:56.

Quote:
Every word of Allah is critical. The critical message of the verse 51:56 is jinn and humans were "not created" to worship other gods.
I know 'Every word of Allah is critical'.

This is why I have requested to show me step by step from the original verse to how you arrive at your above proposals.

The original verse of 51:56
وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ
Wama khalaqtu aljinna waal-insa illa liyaAAbudooni
And not I have created the jinn and the mankind except that they worship Me.
I have already show your attempt had failed.
The other way you can do it is by twisting and adding to Allah's words which is a sin.

You can try again to show me step by step how you can change the above 51:56 to your
"jinn and humans were "not created" to worship other gods."
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Old 12-24-2016, 12:24 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have answered this in the other post.
You can get the central message from a combination of many relevant verses, e.g. 6:102 and many others and the final conclusive verse is 51:56.

I know 'Every word of Allah is critical'.

This is why I have requested to show me step by step from the original verse to how you arrive at your above proposals.

The original verse of 51:56
وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ
Wama khalaqtu aljinna waal-insa illa liyaAAbudooni
And not I have created the jinn and the mankind except that they worship Me.
I have already show your attempt had failed.
The other way you can do it is by twisting and adding to Allah's words which is a sin.

You can try again to show me step by step how you can change the above 51:56 to your
"jinn and humans were "not created" to worship other gods."
So far, not been able Klievh from the definition of gin
Is he an angel
Is it a demon
Is it a space creature
And how we can know Gin
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Old 12-24-2016, 06:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have answered this in the other post.
There isn't any verse in the Qur'aan that says, "I created jinn and humans to worship Me". So how have you answered my question without quoting that missing verse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You can get the central message from a combination of many relevant verses, e.g. 6:102 and many others and the final conclusive verse is 51:56.
[6.102] That is Allah, your Lord, there is no god but He; the Creator of all things, therefore serve Him, and He has charge of all things.

This verse is not saying, "I created jinn and humans for the sole purpose that they worship Me" or even, "I created the jinn and humans to worship Me".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I know 'Every word of Allah is critical'.

This is why I have requested to show me step by step from the original verse to how you arrive at your above proposals.

The original verse of 51:56
وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ
Wama khalaqtu aljinna waal-insa illa liyaAAbudooni
And not I have created the jinn and the mankind except that they worship Me.
I have already explained that the verse is not saying that Allah "created" jinn and humans to worship Him but that the jinn and humans were "not created" to worship other gods.

The message in the verse is: I did not create the jinn and humans to worship [gods] other than Me.

"except Me" means "gods other than Me".

You simply cannot take the message of the verse as, "I created the jinn and humans that they worship Me". If you take it like that then the only purpose of the jinn and humans creation was to worship Allah. If that had been the only purpose of creation of humans then humans would have been like angels without freewill. Worshiping Allah is not the only purpose humans were created but to be Khalifah of Allah on earth. That's why there isn't even one verse in the Qur'aan that says, "I created the jinn and humans so that they worship Me". With absence of such a verse in the Qur'aan, you have been stopped in your track. You cannot now claim that the sole purpose of human creation was worshiping Allah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You can try again to show me step by step how you can change the above 51:56 to your "jinn and humans were "not created" to worship other gods."
I have done just that, not only here but before it too.
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Old 12-24-2016, 07:02 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
Reputation: 289
Continuum,

I hope you will have a nice Christmas and a Happy New Year.

By the way, if you are being chased by a gin over the Christmas period, just take it as if it is an annoying jinn. I can't discount a possibility that some jinn will chase others to worship them.
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