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Old 12-19-2016, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
He is not right and you are wrong.

The Qur'an allowed "up to" 4 wives at a time when there were many women in need of protection. This allowance was made with a condition or else only one (4:3).

The Qur'an allowed more than 4 wives anyway. Up to 4 is only for the believers at large.

There is no "legal sex without marriage" in Islam.

Wrong!

33:52 means the prophet can't marry another free woman but still can marry any woman under his protection.

It's not an eternal divine law. Can you back up your claim that marrying 4 wives is an eternal dine law?

I married just one woman because that's all I am allowed according to the Qur'an; just one (4:3). There is no way I can meet the condition in 4:3 (4:129).

Is it because of the Qur'an that you and I are entangled with sexual lusts?
Note 4:3
4:3. And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women [female orphans], who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye [Muslims] will not do injustice.
Linguistics logic determined that 'women' must relate to 'orphans' [the main subject] thus 'female orphans' as I had indicated above. In the later part, 'your right hands possess' [possessed, owned = slave].
Therefore the rule is Muslims can only marry up to 4 females only if they are orphans or slaves.

Whatever the difference done is the past is excused and not a sin. But for the future 4:3 and 33:50-52 should apply.

33:52 is a contradiction because the prophet is allowed to marry more than 4 wives inclusive of slaves.

Quote:
It's not an eternal divine law. Can you back up your claim that marrying 4 wives is an eternal dine law?
Whatever is stated by Allah in the Quran is by default applicable eternally unless there is a time limitation that is specifically by Allah.

There are no such time limitations, therefore that rule is eternal.
There are conditions but such conditions are very flimsy and are like those DUCK-RABBIT scenario and verses.
Now who on Earth is to judge who is right or wrong in such DUCK-RABBIT matters.
What is the standard measure on whether one can afford it, do justice or not?
Such conditions are so subjective. A wise God would not have included such subjective matters to enable it to be abused in God's name.

 
Old 12-19-2016, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,603,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If a Muslim is actually following Islam it is doubtful he would have more than one wife. While it is permissible for a Muslim to have up to for wives, it is a great sacrifice few could do..Most Muslims do not have more than one wife.

If a man seeks an additional wife the purpose is to support and protect here. A man does not have free choice as to who an additional wife, Can only do so if the eligible widows, divorcees and orphans in the community refuse to marry him.

For a Muslim man to have more than one wife he must provide each wife with her own private living quarters, preferably her own House. It is not a Harem type scenario, Each wife must be treated equally along with other conditions.
It is good of you that you do not have more than one wife. In a normal situation, no women or men would want their partner to have another partner besides them all the time.
Many a times, those women whose husband takes another wife, will suffer emotionally and psychologically in silence.

The other reality it is impossible for God to exists. As such that men can marry up to 4 wives is actually divinely groundless and it is actually a man made law for lustful sexual gratifications in most cases.

That you are a monogamist is purely because you are human and has adopted progressive human values and you have ignored Allah's Quranic provisions.
However you cannot ignore the fact [even Allah declared] that there exists a certain percentile of men who are unable to control their sexual lusts.
4:28. Allah would make the burden light for you [Muslims], for man was created weak.
The above refer to sexual lust re "weak" and I take it 4:28 meant most men and not ALL men.

It may be VERY necessary in certain conditions that men can marry more than one wife or a female can marry more that one husband. If the majority of men were killed within a tribe, community, specific groups, nature will take its course [it is only natural] in gravitating the remaining men to marry more than one wife, i.e. the widows and other females.
But the point is there should NOT be a general rule [made divine] that men can marry more than one wife in a holy text which is supposed to be immutable and eternal.

The fact is human morality will evolve in time. There is no need for fixed rules in a holy texts such as one can marry up to 4 wives. Even with conditions, this can easily be abused.

Take the example of slavery, 100 years ago the practice of slavery was prevalent, but slavery at present is being reduced naturally and suppressed due to evolution of human morality without any help from any holy texts. In the contrary the religious texts condone at least some form of slavery till eternity.

I am optimistic, based on current trend, the evolution of progressive human morality will eliminate all form of slavery within humanity within the next 50 years without any help from any religion.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-19-2016 at 09:34 PM..
 
Old 12-19-2016, 10:00 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 671,327 times
Reputation: 204
I'll offer an example of an applied
1-allows the pros to marry his uncles and aunts, and marry any Samarra donated herself to him
And also to have that your right hands possess.
2-allows the pros to be called, and whom he will have authority over his wives
3-and now the pros will not be allowed to alter his wives even if he liked the beauty of women
Only that your right hands possess.
Do you notice the contradiction in the text
This is just as it is in the Koran
 
Old 12-20-2016, 05:35 AM
 
3,201 posts, read 1,057,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note 4:3
4:3. And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women [female orphans], who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye [Muslims] will not do injustice.
Linguistics logic determined that 'women' must relate to 'orphans' [the main subject] thus 'female orphans' as I had indicated above. In the later part, 'your right hands possess' [possessed, owned = slave].
Therefore the rule is Muslims can only marry up to 4 females only if they are orphans or slaves.

Whatever the difference done is the past is excused and not a sin. But for the future 4:3 and 33:50-52 should apply.

33:52 is a contradiction because the prophet is allowed to marry more than 4 wives inclusive of slaves.
Continuum,

Out friend wasn't talking about the contradiction you are talking about but contradiction between 33:50 and 33:52. That's why I had explained that there is no contradiction between these verses.

33:52 does not contradict any other verse. It merely forbids the prophet not to marry any more free women. Basically, time had changed and there was no need for him to marry more free women.
 
Old 12-20-2016, 05:51 AM
 
3,201 posts, read 1,057,197 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is good of you that you do not have more than one wife. In a normal situation, no women or men would want their partner to have another partner besides them all the time.
Many a times, those women whose husband takes another wife, will suffer emotionally and psychologically in silence.

The other reality it is impossible for God to exists. As such that men can marry up to 4 wives is actually divinely groundless and it is actually a man made law for lustful sexual gratifications in most cases.
I can't agree with you on more than one ground:

1. Anything is possible if you have no proof that it does not exist.

2. A lustful man or men would not try to limit themselves to have less sex.

3. Lustful men would prefer to reject existence of God so that there is no divine sex limiting law.

4. Those with excessive sexual drive have many women without marrying them. They prefer no marriage law and complete freedom to have as many women as they like.

5. Divine marriage laws are to limit lustful men having limitless sexual partners.
 
Old 12-20-2016, 07:22 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 671,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I can't agree with you on more than one ground:

1. Anything is possible if you have no proof that it does not exist.

2. A lustful man or men would not try to limit themselves to have less sex.

3. Lustful men would prefer to reject existence of God so that there is no divine sex limiting law.

4. Those with excessive sexual drive have many women without marrying them. They prefer no marriage law and complete freedom to have as many women as they like.

5. Divine marriage laws are to limit lustful men having limitless sexual partners.
Are you able to give us the history of revelation of this verse 52
How old was the Prophet Muhammad
Why excluded verse right hands possess.
You are a Muslim and you know that every state have dropped off anytime it

If the date of verse 52 before verse 51, it means that Muhammad violated the Koran
If the date of verse after verse 50
It means a contradiction
That verse 50 is the permissibility
Verse 52 is the restriction
Whichever is the correct
 
Old 12-20-2016, 07:33 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 671,327 times
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This is a list of names of the wives of Muhammad
And which does not mention Maria Coptic
Because it was one of the slaves in the eyes of Muslims1-The Prophet, peace be upon him has married Khadija Khuwaylid girl at the age of forty years,
2-Then married Sawda Zama girl, aged six and sixty limits, as Abu Zahra said in his book Seal of the Prophets: he married the Prophet prayed God Almighty be upon him from before then black girl Zama immigration, and
3-Then married the girl Aisha Abu Bakr, and six years old, and built in October in the first year of the Immigration and nine years old
4-Hafsa girl then married Omar bin al-Khattab, at the age of twenty-one years old, he married her in the third year of migration
5-
Then married Zaynab girl Khuzaymah, which is in the thirty-year-old entering the boundaries of time, as Ghalwash said in his book Biography of the Prophet and advocacy of civil Testament:
6-Then married Umm Salamah Hind girl Abi Umayya bin invasive, and his marriage was God's peace be upon him in the month of Shawwal of the fourth year of migration in the twenty-seventh of the old limits,
7-Then married Zainab girl colt, aged thirty-eighth in the limits of the old;
8-Then he married Fatima girl Harith, a six-year-old in the fifteenth limits,
9-Then married Umm Habiba Ramlet girl Abi Sufyan bin Sakhr, aged in the forty-second boundaries of age,
Then he married Safiya girl shy Ben preach, Sir Bani Nadir, and was not reported seventeen years, as the son of the people said
10-Then married auspicious girl Harith, in October the year seventh in Makkah Umrah after the judiciary has permitted, built by Bserf where he married her[SIZE=2][SIZE=2]
[/SIZE]


[/SIZE]
 
Old 12-20-2016, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,603,512 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I can't agree with you on more than one ground:

1. Anything is possible if you have no proof that it does not exist.
No contradiction is possible in any real world. I have proofs [very detailed so don't intent to debate this here] that the claim 'god exists as real is a contradiction' thus impossible.

Quote:
2. A lustful man or men would not try to limit themselves to have less sex.

3. Lustful men would prefer to reject existence of God so that there is no divine sex limiting law.

4. Those with excessive sexual drive have many women without marrying them. They prefer no marriage law and complete freedom to have as many women as they like.

5. Divine marriage laws are to limit lustful men having limitless sexual partners.
If a God in holy text limit marriage to ONLY one, then it is likely lustful men will prefer not to believe in such a God.

But if a God give permission as a divine rule that men can marry more than one up to four as in Islam, surely many lustful men would prefer to convert to Islam. One is surely better than four and what more it is with God's blessing.

In terms of humanity to allow men to marry more that one as an eternal law is immoral.
The sexism itself, i.e. only men and not women is another category of immorality and injustice.

Marriage is a very special human event.
To allow men to marry up to 4 with divine permission is almost as serious like allowing men to kill [vague justifications] up to 4 but not more.
The moral is killing one itself is a serious immoral act.
In that sense, marrying more than one even with divine permission is a serious immoral act.

My point is God should never allow men to marry more than one wife and include that in his holy text which is supposed to be immutable and eternal.
God should have allowed nature to take its course and human themselves will self regulate such a moral act [marriage in this case] in time in accordance to circumstances.
As you can see, secular laws are evolving to ban polygamy all over the world without God's help to promote good morality [fairness and peace to women and family] within humanity.
But Islam is a hindrance to the improvement to such a morality because the immutable Quran allow [unfairly] men [only] to marry up to 4 [with conditions which are easily abused].

Therefore Islam [cannot be changed] is a hindrance to the progress of morality in the case of universal marriage principles.
It not only in matters of marriage, the immutable [cannot be changed laws] within Islam is a hindrance to the progress of humanity in many other aspects.
 
Old 12-21-2016, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,363,589 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is good of you that you do not have more than one wife. In a normal situation, no women or men would want their partner to have another partner besides them all the time.
Many a times, those women whose husband takes another wife, will suffer emotionally and psychologically in silence.

The other reality it is impossible for God to exists. As such that men can marry up to 4 wives is actually divinely groundless and it is actually a man made law for lustful sexual gratifications in most cases.

That you are a monogamist is purely because you are human and has adopted progressive human values and you have ignored Allah's Quranic provisions.
However you cannot ignore the fact [even Allah declared] that there exists a certain percentile of men who are unable to control their sexual lusts.
4:28. Allah would make the burden light for you [Muslims], for man was created weak.
The above refer to sexual lust re "weak" and I take it 4:28 meant most men and not ALL men.

It may be VERY necessary in certain conditions that men can marry more than one wife or a female can marry more that one husband. If the majority of men were killed within a tribe, community, specific groups, nature will take its course [it is only natural] in gravitating the remaining men to marry more than one wife, i.e. the widows and other females.
But the point is there should NOT be a general rule [made divine] that men can marry more than one wife in a holy text which is supposed to be immutable and eternal.

The fact is human morality will evolve in time. There is no need for fixed rules in a holy texts such as one can marry up to 4 wives. Even with conditions, this can easily be abused.

Take the example of slavery, 100 years ago the practice of slavery was prevalent, but slavery at present is being reduced naturally and suppressed due to evolution of human morality without any help from any holy texts. In the contrary the religious texts condone at least some form of slavery till eternity.

I am optimistic, based on current trend, the evolution of progressive human morality will eliminate all form of slavery within humanity within the next 50 years without any help from any religion.
Even if I wanted more than one wife (which I don't) i would not meet the conditions to enable me to have more than one.

The allowance of 4 wives and the conditions required actually promotes monogamy. The Qur'aan is the only religious scripture that limits the number of wives a man can have.

The world actually has "pseudo-polygamy" in most nations it is permissible for consenting adults to engage in sex. In most nations there is nothing illegal for unmarried consenting adults to have as many sex partners as they can handle.
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Old 12-21-2016, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,603,512 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Even if I wanted more than one wife (which I don't) i would not meet the conditions to enable me to have more than one.

The allowance of 4 wives and the conditions required actually promotes monogamy. The Qur'aan is the only religious scripture that limits the number of wives a man can have.

The world actually has "pseudo-polygamy" in most nations it is permissible for consenting adults to engage in sex. In most nations there is nothing illegal for unmarried consenting adults to have as many sex partners as they can handle.
You are conflating two issues in this case, i.e. legal marriage and consensual sex.

It is likely, besides being conscientious and morally good, you had not marry more than two at one time because you cannot do it legally in the USA.

In the case of marriage;
4:3. And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans [l-yatāmā], marry of the women [female orphans], who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice [taʿdilū] (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye [Muslims] will not do injustice.
Actually 4:3 is specifically related to orphans only but in practice this rule is applied [in defiance of Allah's words] legally to all women in many Islamic countries. Assuming this is the case, the only restricting conditions in 4:3 are 'fear' and 'justice' which are very subjective.

The point above is if there is no fears and a man is capable of doing justice, then a man can marry more than 1 wife up to 4.
This two variable fears, and justice are so subjective, thus it will vary greatly between groups and legal systems of states and Nations.
Because these two variables are so subjective, they can easily be abused.
No one on Earth can judge up to Allah intended standards and Allah can never appear on Earth to give his judgment. Therefore what we have is a potential mess and suppressed emotional and psychological suffering to the earlier wife and children.
Most people are very ignorant of what is going on with the associated evils in Islamic countries associated with 4:3 of the Quran [& Ahadith] and polygamy.
A wise God would never do such a thing as leaving an eternal law on such matter re 4:3.

Quote:
The allowance of 4 wives and the conditions required actually promotes monogamy. The Qur'aan is the only religious scripture that limits the number of wives a man can have.
Monogamy?? this is odd as more than one wife cannot logically be monogamy.
The fact is Islam condone and promote polygamy, i.e. up to quadrigamy [up to 4].

There is nothing moral to brag about [I would feel shame] when a religion restrict men to 4 wives because of the inevitable potential emotional and psychological sufferings to the women, children and even the husbands when things go bad later.
At present the non-Islam religions leave it up to secular laws to deal with marriage and this is the right moral thing to do as secular laws are not immutable and thus can be changed to suit progress in time and circumstances.

Thus, one point is, Islam is the only religion at present to condone and facilitate potential emotional and psychological sufferings to the women, children and even the husbands in relation to its marriage legal provisions.

Marriage and sex though interlinked should be separately issues.
Marriage encompass a wide range of terms within a legal framework and sex is only one major aspects of it leading to procreation of the next generations.
The fact is the sexual drive is a VERY tremendous force within human nature and humanity cannot suppress such a force to within marriage. This sexual force exists in both males and females and such a force should be allowed to express without suppression. Therefore in this case consensual sex should be permitted as long as it does not involve evil elements.

Society should not be blind to consensual sex. Consensual sex has its related problems and all its problems must be resolved in time. Religion can play and advisory role in discouraging or advising on consensual sex at present but religion should not impose immutable eternal laws on matters of consensual sex.

Note for example, except for certain restrictions, cigarettes are not illegal in all [if not most] countries. But the fact is not all people will smoke. At one time in the past it seems 80% of adult males smoked, but I believe at present "80%" of people on earth practice self-restraint on smoking cigarettes based on knowledge of its dangers to one health.
It is the same for consensual sex. Not all people will go wild with consensual sex even it is not illegal and end up with its related problems [unwanted children, abortions, etc.]. As humanity progress, related problems will improve in time as with the problem of slavery with its improvements.

Religious restraints with immutable eternal divine laws are immoral especially in the present age and in the future.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-21-2016 at 09:30 PM..
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