U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-22-2016, 02:34 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Yes, there is no double negatives in the first lot. There is no single negative as well.
However the basic meaning of the two lot is the same for all the verses listed in both lots.

The point is if we are to use a negative [alla, etc.] as a means to emphasize, then, it must be paired with another negative [illa] to ensure the basic meaning is intact.

Linguistically, "except" has a few grammatical function, e.g. preposition, conjunction, or restrictive or exceptive particle as you claim.
However in context, except is also a negative particle.



At the basic, except definitely has an inherent negative quality in the specific context like 51:56 and the examples [200+ verses] I have given.

As I have demonstrated above my claim can be proven by testing.

The proof is confirmed is you remove all the paired negatives in the second lot, the basic meaning is the same with the first lot without double negative.
This prove that the double negative is merely a grammatical element to add emphasis and not to change the basic meaning.


Thus for 51:56, whether presented as;
And not I have created the jinn and the mankind except that they worship Me.
or removing the paired negatives;
And [] I have created the jinn and the mankind [] that they worship Me.
convey the same basic meaning, the difference is only the emphasis.
Continuum,

Please note that wiki is wrong. Show me which article of wiki deals with "illa" in detail. Someone has assumed "alla" as "illa" in wiki. It is a mistake.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-22-2016, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,

Please note that wiki is wrong. Show me which article of wiki deals with "illa" in detail. Someone has assumed "alla" as "illa" in wiki. It is a mistake.
It is the same with your source re from Leeds University and they are not the final authority.

Never mind that the wiki source is not conclusive.

However from the many examples I have given, the principle is;
if there is an "alla" with an "illa" in a certain context, then we can remove them [as emphasis] to reveal the basic message.

The basic message in this verse 29:44

29:44. Allah created the heavens and the Earth with truth
in other verses Allah had added "alla" and "illa" emphasis to the above like in 15:85
15:85. We created not [alla] the heavens and the Earth and all that is between them save [except] [illa] with truth,
Now you tell me, did the basic meaning of 15:85 change when "alla" and "illa" is added?
Answer is 'no'.
The basis meaning in 15:85 is still "Allah created the heavens and the Earth with truth" and the added "alla" and "illa" are merely as an emphasis.

If we remove the emphasis "alla" and "illa" in 15:85 we arrive at the basic message.

"Allah created the heavens and the Earth with truth"

This inference cannot be wrong because in 29:44 Allah explicit stated it.

Therefore it is not wrong for me to remove "alla" and "illa" in 15:85 to reconcile with Allah's 29:44 and other similar verses.

Note I am definitely not wrong because I am applying the universal double negative principle which you are denying despite it is a glaring fact.
In addition I have provided tons of examples to support my point.

Your views are merely outright denial and hand-waving without sufficient justifications.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2016, 04:04 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is the same with your source re from Leeds University and they are not the final authority.

Never mind that the wiki source is not conclusive.

However from the many examples I have given, the principle is;
if there is an "alla" with an "illa" in a certain context, then we can remove them [as emphasis] to reveal the basic message.
This is where you are totally wrong; you must not remove any word. It is there for precise reason, including the meaning and emphasis.

It is foolish to think that Allah has sent messages like "worship Me" but never "do not worship idol gods".

there are verses that mean worship Me and there are verses that mean do not worship other gods. The 51:56 is the latter one.

I hope you will understand my point now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2016, 10:13 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The basic message in this verse 29:44

29:44. Allah created the heavens and the Earth with truth
in other verses Allah had added "alla" and "illa" emphasis to the above like in 15:85
15:85. We created not [alla] the heavens and the Earth and all that is between them save [except] [illa] with truth,
Now you tell me, did the basic meaning of 15:85 change when "alla" and "illa" is added?
Answer is 'no'.
Wrong!

First of all, the verse 15:85 does not have "alla" in it but "ma". Therefore, there is one negative "ma" and one restrictive particle "illa" in it. And no "alla".

With emphasis of a negative particle and a restrictive particle in 29:44, the message will changed. It will changed to:

[38.27] And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them in vain...

Also read [3.191].

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The basis meaning in 15:85 is still "Allah created the heavens and the Earth with truth" and the added "alla" and "illa" are merely as an emphasis.
Now do the same mental gymnastics with the verse 51:56 and show me which verse in the Qur'aan says, "I (Allah) created jinn and humans to worship Me". If there is no such verse in the Qur'aan then there is no such basic message that you are imagining is in the Qur'aan from reading the verse 51:56.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If we remove the emphasis "alla" and "illa" in 15:85 we arrive at the basic message.

"Allah created the heavens and the Earth with truth"

This inference cannot be wrong because in 29:44 Allah explicit stated it.
In which verse of the Qur'aan did Allah explicitly state, "jinn and humans were created to worship Him"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore it is not wrong for me to remove "alla" and "illa" in 15:85 to reconcile with Allah's 29:44 and other similar verses.
The verse 15:85 reconciles with 38:27:

[38.27] And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them in vain...

But you can't see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I am definitely not wrong because I am applying the universal double negative principle which you are denying despite it is a glaring fact.
You are wrong and I am proving you wrong. You are not applying double negative principle but imagined double negative, an illusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In addition I have provided tons of examples to support my point.
When you begin with false premise your conclusion will be false too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your views are merely outright denial and hand-waving without sufficient justifications.
I have given you more than enough to make you understand. The denial is on your part.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2016, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This is where you are totally wrong; you must not remove any word. It is there for precise reason, including the meaning and emphasis.

It is foolish to think that Allah has sent messages like "worship Me" but never "do not worship idol gods".

there are verses that mean worship Me and there are verses that mean do not worship other gods. The 51:56 is the latter one.

I hope you will understand my point now.
As I had mentioned before, it does not matter whether we remove the 'not' and 'illa,' the main purpose is to understand what is the substance of the basic message.

As I had explained, the main reason why "alla" and "illa" is added is merey to add emphasis and not change the basic meaning.

Both "worship Me" and "do not worship idol gods" convey the same basic message, i.e. "worship me."
The "do not worship idol gods" is merely an emphasis and it is secondary to the main basic message.

51:56 never mention did not include the words "do not worship idol gods" at all.


51:56 starts with the phrase "I [Allah] did not created jinn and humankind.."
This is an absurd and false statement because Allah did create jinn and humankind as the Quran said so!
Surely Allah is not trying to lie?

The reason why Allah use such an absurd and false statement is purely to add emphasis to the main basic message, i.e.
"I [Allah] created jinn and humankind.. to yabudu Me"
This would make sense to explain why Allah was not trying to lie with the false statement except to add emphasis to the basic message as above.

As I had stated when we come across such a seeming absurd phrase such as
"I [Allah] did not created jinn and humankind.."
we have to review all the related and similar verses on the same basic meaning and reconcile all verses with "alla" and "illa" back to the same basic message.

I have done that and arrive at the conclusion, the basic message is
"I [Allah] created jinn and humankind.. to yabudu Me"
with or without the "alla" & "illa".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2016, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Wrong!

First of all, the verse 15:85 does not have "alla" in it but "ma". Therefore, there is one negative "ma" and one restrictive particle "illa" in it. And no "alla".
In haste, I had assumed "alla" from the 'not.' I'll correct this to 'ma' which is also 'not.' This correction is not a significant error.

Quote:
With emphasis of a negative particle and a restrictive particle in 29:44, the message will changed. It will changed to:

[38.27] And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them in vain...

Also read [3.191].
You are comparing apples and oranges here. We have to put 38:27 and 3:191 aside in this case as they contain "in vain" and not "with truth." Besides they are not verses with elements of double negatives, like "alla" with "illa" or "ma" with "illa."


Note you have not answer my question properly;

Quote:
The basic message in this verse 29:44 is;
29:44. Allah created the heavens and the Earth with truth
in other verses Allah had added "alla" and "illa" emphasis to the above like in 15:85
15:85. We created not [ma] the heavens and the Earth and all that is between them save [except] [illa] with truth,
Now you tell me, did the basic meaning of 15:85 change when "alla" and "illa" is added?
Answer is 'no'.
Is there a change in the basic meaning between 29:44 and 15:85?


Quote:
Now do the same mental gymnastics with the verse 51:56 and show me which verse in the Qur'aan says, "I (Allah) created jinn and humans to worship Me". If there is no such verse in the Qur'aan then there is no such basic message that you are imagining is in the Qur'aan from reading the verse 51:56.

In which verse of the Qur'aan did Allah explicitly state, "jinn and humans were created to worship Him"?
The meaning can be concluded from many verses from the Quran such as;
6:102. Such is Allah, your Lord. There is no God save Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him [fa-uʿ'budūhu]. And He taketh care of all things.
6:102 state Allah is the creator of all things, thus jinn and humankind, so worship Him.

If you read all the related verses [there are many] you will arrive at the above conclusion.
This conclusion is confirmed by the main basic message in 51:56.
As I had argued the term "created" by default has an inherent 'purpose' within it as far as the Quran is concern.

Quote:
Now you show me where I am wrong on this?

The verse 15:85 reconciles with 38:27:

[38.27] And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them in vain...

But you can't see it.
Nah.. 15:85 reconcile with 29:44 and the more than 10 other verses in the two lots of verses that contain "with truth" I have given in the other example. Read those two lots of verses I have given in the other examples that contain 15:85 and 29:44.

As for 38:27 which do not has a double-negative element, we can read it in another perspective i.e.
[38.27] And We did create the heaven and the earth and what is between them NOT in vain...
Without "in vain" the phrase "We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them" is false and absurd
It is just a matter of shifting the 'not' but the basic meaning is not changed.
The new phrase is clearer to read without starting with a false and absurd introduction.

Quote:
You are wrong and I am proving you wrong. You are not applying double negative principle but imagined double negative, an illusion.

When you begin with false premise your conclusion will be false too.

I have given you more than enough to make you understand. The denial is on your part.
So far you have not provided any valid justifications at all.
I have countered all your false allegations and twisting of the verses to suit your confirmation bias.
You have added additional words and phrases from nowhere to justify your wrong claim.

What I have done [ignoring the paired negatives] is merely to apply the double negative principles in accordance to universal linguistic rules.

If your counter views are convincing and objective I will definitely accept them but your views are not sound at all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2016, 03:53 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had mentioned before, it does not matter whether we remove the 'not' and 'illa,' the main purpose is to understand what is the substance of the basic message.

As I had explained, the main reason why "alla" and "illa" is added is merey to add emphasis and not change the basic meaning.

Both "worship Me" and "do not worship idol gods" convey the same basic message, i.e. "worship me."
The "do not worship idol gods" is merely an emphasis and it is secondary to the main basic message.
The way you are thinking, "worship Me" is secondary as there would be no need for it unless people were worshiping idols or other gods. Therefore, even "worship Me" without emphasis is the same basic message as "do not worship idol gods". Thus the basic message is do not commit shirk by worshiping idol gods.

The Qur'aan wasn't revealed to give message "worship Me". It was revealed to stop people worshiping idols. Allah does not need our worship. He wants us to stop worshiping idols as worshiping idols will not benefit us.

[14.35] And when Abraham said: My Lord! Make this city secure, and save me and my sons from worshiping idols.

[7.138] And We made the children of Israel to pass the sea; then they came upon a people who kept to the worship of their idols They said: O Moses! Make for us a god as they have (their) gods He said: Surely you are a people acting ignorantly.

It was to get that ignorance out of people that the Qur'aan was revealed saying not to worship idols. This is the basic message.

The very first instruction to man included "do not".

Further more,

[4.43] O you who believe! Do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated... is the basic message.

You shall not worship other gods in 2:83 is another basic message, the same as in 51:56.

Do not commit shirk,

Do not kill your children,

Do not go near immoralities in 6:151 are basic messages.

There are other such examples of the basic messages in the Qur'aan. Even the Torah has MANY such messages in it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-12-2017, 05:28 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
My intention was not to go into precision with 51:56.
To be precise, per Quran 51:56
Wama khalaqtu aljinna waal-insa illa liyaAAbudooni
And not I have created the jinn and the mankind except that they worship Me.
is the same as
And [] I have created the jinn and the mankind [only] that they worship Me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is not the same. "Not created" and "created" cannot be the same. Also, by adding [only] before "they worship Me" gives the purpose of "created" to be ONLY "they worship Me" and do nothing else.

Therefore, your even [only] is used in the wrong place. This makes your understanding of the verse false. There isn't even one other verse in the Qur'aan that says that the purpose of creating humans was ONLY that they worship Me.
"Not created" is glaringly not the same as "created" but,

"Not created" with "except that"
is the same in basic meaning as
"created" with "only that"

Here are 50 English Translation of 51:56 that confirm my views;


A. Here is a list of translation with "Not created" with "except that"
Ali Quli Qara'i :: I did not create the jinn and the humans except that they may worship Me.
Hamid S. Aziz :: And I have not created the jinn and mankind except to worship (serve) Me.
Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) :: And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.
Farook Malik :: We have not created jinns and mankind except to worship Me.
Talal A. Itani (new translation) :: I did not create the jinn and the humans except to worship Me.
Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah :: I have not created mankind and jinn except to worship Me.
Muhammad Ahmed - Samira :: And I did not create the Jinns and the human/mankind except to worship Me.
Rashad Khalifa :: I did not create the jinns and the humans except to worship Me alone.
Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali :: And I (Allah) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone).
Edward Henry Palmer :: And I have not created the ginn and mankind save that they may worship me.
Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali :: And in no way did I create the jinn and humankind except to worship Me.
Shakir :: And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me.
[The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition) :: I did not create the Jinn and the humans except to serve Me.
Ali Bakhtiari Nejad :: And I did not create Jinn and humans except to serve Me (and no one else).
[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition) :: I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to serve Me.
Maulana Muhammad Ali :: And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me.
Arthur John Arberry :: I have not created jinn and mankind except to serve Me.
Dr. Kamal Omar :: And I did not create jinns and mankind except that they may obey Me .
Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar :: And I created not jinn and humankind but that they worship Me.
[Al-Muntakhab] :: I have not created the Jinn and mankind but to recognize Me, serve Me and to worship Me with appropriate acts and rites.
Abdul Majid Daryabadi :: And have not created the Jinn and mankind but that they should worship Me.
Ahmed Ali :: I have not created the jinns and men but to worship Me.
Ali Ünal :: I have not created the jinn and humankind but to (know and) worship Me (exclusively).
Shabbir Ahmed :: And I have not created the nomads or the urban but to consciously and willingly live by My Laws.
Sher Ali :: And I have not created the jinn and the men but that they may worship ME.
John Medows Rodwell :: I have not created Djinn and men, but that they should worship me:

B. Here is a list of 18 translations with "created" with "only that"
Here the 'not' is remove and 'except' replaced with 'only'.
I believe this is in conformance to some linguistic rule [to find out what it is].
Even without the 'not' - 'except' they carry the same meaning as in the above list.
M. M. Pickthall :: I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.
Wahiduddin Khan :: I created the jinn and mankind only so that they might worship Me:
T.B.Irving :: I have only created sprites and men so they may worship Me;
Safi Kaskas :: I only created jinn and human beings to worship Me.
Abdel Haleem :: I created jinn and mankind only to worship Me:
Aisha Bewley :: I only created jinn and man to worship Me.
Muhammad Sarwar :: We have created jinn and human beings only that they might worship Me.
Syed Vickar Ahamed :: And I (Allah) have only created jinns' and men, that they may worship (and serve) Me.
Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition) :: I only created jinn and humans so that they may worship Me.
Faridul Haque :: And I created the jinns and men, only for them to worship Me.
Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi) :: And I have created the Jinn and the men only for this that they may worship Me.
Amatul Rahman Omar :: And I have created the jinn (fiery natured and houghty) and the (ordinary) people only that they may worship Me.
N J Dawood (draft) :: I created the jinn and mankind only that they might worship Me.
Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985) :: I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938) :: I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
Bijan Moeinian :: I have created men and extra-terrestrials (Jinns) to serve only me [not a ruler, a woman, a constitution, etc.]
Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri :: And I created the jinn and human beings solely to adopt My servitude.
Mohammad Shafi :: And I created the jinn and the humans for nothing but that they worship Me.

C. Here is a list with indication of Purpose in association with 'created'
When the 'except' is replaced with 'only' the meaning do reflect in principle the main reason is 'to worship [ya'budu'] me.
This concept of purpose is confirmed by the following translators.
Maududi :: I created the jinn and humans for nothing else but that they may serve Me;
Muhammad Taqi Usmani :: I did not create the Jinns and the human beings except for the purpose that they should worship Me.
Mir Aneesuddin :: And I did not create the jinn and mankind but (with the sole purpose) that they should serve Me.
Dr. Munir Munshey :: I have not created the jinn and the human kind, (for any reason) except that they should worship Me.
Muhammad Asad :: And [tell them that] I have not created the invisible beings and men to any end other than that they may [know and] worship Me.
George Sale :: I have not created genii and men for any other end than that they should serve Me.

Note purpose in the above case refer to 'main' purpose and with sub-purposes as ya'budu encompass purpose like submit, believe, salat, praise, duty etc.
The listing in A is not an issue because they did not change the original format, i.e. retaining 'not' with 'except'.

However you had claimed the translator in list B and C are wrong in their translations. I don't believe translators like Pickthall, Bewey, Yusuf Ali, Maududi, Muhammad Asad are that bad in their Arabic grammar.


On the other hand, your interpretation of 51:56 is deliberating changing the original;
From:
... And not I have created the jinn and the mankind except that they worship Me.
to
... "I did not create the jinn and humans to worship except ME".

What you have reproduced is a very messy verse which no average person familiar with Arabic and English would come up with.
Note 'that they worship me' is a complete phrase in the original verse as intended by Allah.
You are actually corrupting and polluting that nicely put phrase by Allah.

Quote:
Arabic grammar is not the same as the English grammar. You are mistaken if you think it is the same. The verse is not telling you what the humans were created for but what they were not created for. This is the point of the verse that you are unable to understand.
Just as all humans has the same fundamental in essence but different in forms [color, race, height, etc], it is the same for Grammar. The are similarities in the fundamental within English and Arabic Grammar, what is different is their forms.

You don't seem to get it.
When it is stated "something is not created for", the default implication is it must have been created for some purpose.
That is why list A and B are complementary while list C is specific by mentioning the purpose.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-12-2017, 12:31 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
When it is stated "something is not created for", the default implication is it must have been created for some purpose.
You are not thinking straight here. If "something is not created for" then it must be investigated what it is not created for.

The verse itself tells you what something (jinn and humans in this case) was not created for (worshiping other than Me).

It couldn't be more simple, could it?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-12-2017, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are not thinking straight here. If "something is not created for" then it must be investigated what it is not created for.

The verse itself tells you what something (jinn and humans in this case) was not created for (worshiping other than Me).

It couldn't be more simple, could it?
Funny, actually you are the one who is not thinking straight here.

You deliberately ignore the necessary "except" [illa].
Verse 51:56 meant the following;

"something is not created for" except for to worship Allah.

thus

something (jinn and humans in this case) was not created for except to worship Allah.

the basic meaning is thus;

something (jinn and humans in this case) was [] created [] to worship Allah.



Note the following translations which are the most closest to Allah's intended message;
Muhammad Asad ::
And [tell them that] I have not created the invisible beings and men to any end other than that they may [know and] worship Me.

Maududi ::
I created the jinn and humans for nothing else but that they may serve Me;

Muhammad Taqi Usmani ::
I did not create the Jinns and the human beings except for the purpose that they should worship Me.

Mir Aneesuddin ::
And I did not create the jinn and mankind but (with the sole purpose) that they should serve Me.

Dr. Munir Munshey ::
I have not created the jinn and the human kind, (for any reason) except that they should worship Me.

George Sale ::
I have not created genii and men for any other end than that they should serve Me.

The above translations has the same basic meaning as Pickthall and the rest of the same;
M. M. Pickthall:
I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.

Alternatively the long form with repetition is as follows;
I did not create jinn and humankind except that [I created jinn and humankind] to worship Me.
The phrase in blue is implied in 51:56 but ignored in the original to avoid being repetitive.


The 50 English translators are thinking straight like me, but you are the only one who is different, i.e. not thinking straight [deleting and adding your own words to twist Allah's words].

Last edited by Continuum; 01-12-2017 at 07:00 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top