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Old 12-18-2016, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Khalif,

Re your OP
Purpose of creation of humankind

[51.56] And I did not create Jinn and humans to serve (anyone else) except Me.


A review of the English translations [49 of them] will revealed the translations are not in agreement with your translation above, i.e. the phrase 'to serve (anyone else) except Me' by placing he except before 'Me'.

The 49 English translations are in two main categories;
1. Leaving the 'not' and 'except' intact but the double negative is still implied.
"And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me." -Shakir.

2. Removing the 'not' and 'except' to reveal the basic message.
E.g. "I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me." Pickthall

I believe in 2 i.e. Removing the 'not' and 'except' to reveal the basic message, is to facilitate easier reading. In this case, it sacrificing the emphasis for a easier to understand basic message.

In addition, I have argued, the term 'created' [past tense] in the context of 51:56 carry the inherent element of 'purpose.' Nothing is created without a 'purpose' in the context of the Quran.

I understand the majority is never always right, but in this case, 51:56 is a very simple sentence with double negative elements.
Thus these 49 English translations of 51:56 are correct and agree with what I had proposed in the other thread.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-18-2016 at 11:26 PM..
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Old 12-18-2016, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Default 49 English Translations of 51:56

Here is the list of 49 English Translations of 51:56 [including your favorite Assad's];

Muhammad Asad
And [tell them that] I have not created the invisible beings and men to any end other than that they may [know and] worship Me.

M. M. Pickthall
I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.

Shakir
And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938)
I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
And I created not jinn and humankind but that they worship Me.

Wahiduddin Khan
I created the jinn and mankind only so that they might worship Me:

T.B.Irving
I have only created sprites and men so they may worship Me;

Safi Kaskas
I only created jinn and human beings to worship Me.

[Al-Muntakhab]
I have not created the Jinn and mankind but to recognize Me, serve Me and to worship Me with appropriate acts and rites.

[The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition)
I did not create the Jinn and the humans except to serve Me.

Abdel Haleem
I created jinn and mankind only to worship Me:

Abdul Majid Daryabadi
And have not created the Jinn and mankind but that they should worship Me.

Ahmed Ali
I have not created the jinns and men but to worship Me.

Aisha Bewley
I only created jinn and man to worship Me.

Ali Ünal
I have not created the jinn and humankind but to (know and) worship Me (exclusively).

Ali Quli Qara'i
I did not create the jinn and the humans except that they may worship Me.

Hamid S. Aziz
And I have not created the jinn and mankind except to worship (serve) Me.

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
And in no way did I create the jinn and humankind except to worship Me.

Muhammad Sarwar
We have created jinn and human beings only that they might worship Me.

Muhammad Taqi Usmani
I did not create the Jinns and the human beings except for the purpose that they should worship Me.

Shabbir Ahmed
And I have not created the nomads or the urban but to consciously and willingly live by My Laws. ('Ibadah', usually translated, as worship is better applicable in that sense to idol-worship. And since the Qur'an consistently promotes action over ritual, 'Ibadah' of Allah is better understood as serving Him by serving His creation. That is in conformity with my rendering, 'consciously and willingly live by --').

Syed Vickar Ahamed
And I (Allah) have only created jinns' and men, that they may worship (and serve) Me.

Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)
And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.

Farook Malik
We have not created jinns and mankind except to worship Me.

Dr. Munir Munshey
I have not created the jinn and the human kind, (for any reason) except that they should worship Me.

Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri
And I created the jinn and human beings solely to adopt My servitude.

Dr. Kamal Omar
And I did not create jinns and mankind except that they may obey Me .

Talal A. Itani (new translation)
I did not create the jinn and the humans except to worship Me.

Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)
I only created jinn and humans so that they may worship Me.

Maududi
I created the jinn and humans for nothing else but that they may serve Me;

Ali Bakhtiari Nejad
And I did not create Jinn and humans except to serve Me (and no one else).

[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)
I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to serve Me.

Mohammad Shafi
And I created the jinn and the humans for nothing but that they worship Me.

Bijan Moeinian
I have created men and extra-terrestrials (Jinns) to serve only me [not a ruler, a woman, a constitution, etc.]

Faridul Haque
And I created the jinns and men, only for them to worship Me.

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah
I have not created mankind and jinn except to worship Me.

Maulana Muhammad Ali
And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me.

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira
And I did not create the Jinns and the human/mankind except to worship Me.

Sher Ali
And I have not created the jinn and the men but that they may worship ME.

Rashad Khalifa
I did not create the jinns and the humans except to worship Me alone.

Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi)
And I have created the Jinn and the men only for this that they may worship Me.

Amatul Rahman Omar
And I have created the jinn (fiery natured and houghty) and the (ordinary) people only that they may worship Me.

Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali
And I (Allah) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone).

Arthur John Arberry
I have not created jinn and mankind except to serve Me.

Edward Henry Palmer
And I have not created the ginn and mankind save that they may worship me.

George Sale
I have not created genii and men for any other end than that they should serve Me.

John Medows Rodwell
I have not created Djinn and men, but that they should worship me:

N J Dawood (draft)
I created the jinn and mankind only that they might worship Me.
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Old 12-19-2016, 06:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Khalif,

Re your OP
Purpose of creation of humankind

[51.56] And I did not create Jinn and humans to serve (anyone else) except Me.
Why are you starting so many threads about the same verse? Could you not discuss the verse in the same thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
A review of the English translations [49 of them] will revealed the translations are not in agreement with your translation above, i.e. the phrase 'to serve (anyone else) except Me' by placing he except before 'Me'.
It will make no difference even if you place "illa" ("except") where it is placed in the Arabic. The meaning would be the same.

The meaning will change only when you completely take out "not" and "except".

It is utterly wrong to replace "not created" with "created". The moment you do that, you have utterly mistranslated the verse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The 49 English translations are in two main categories;
1. Leaving the 'not' and 'except' intact but the double negative is still implied.
"And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me." -Shakir.

2. Removing the 'not' and 'except' to reveal the basic message.
E.g. "I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me." Pickthall
Shakir is correct and Pickthall utterly wrong.

The verse is not telling us why Allah had "created" jinn and humans but is telling us what jinn and humans were "not created" for (that they should serve any other god).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believe in 2 i.e. Removing the 'not' and 'except' to reveal the basic message, is to facilitate easier reading. In this case, it sacrificing the emphasis for a easier to understand basic message.
You can't regard it "easier to understand message" when the message in its original form hasn't even been understood by you yet? It means you wanted to alter the verse so that you could create a message that you had in your mind even before you understood the verse.

The end result is that you wanted to create a message that you wanted by getting rid of two words from the verse. Each word in the verse is there for a precise reason. Without any such word, the verse is not going to have the original message in it. And that's what you and many translators have done to the verse. Once understood it properly, it is up to me to correct the wrong done to the verse meaning. I will keep doing my best to correct the wrong done by others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In addition, I have argued, the term 'created' [past tense] in the context of 51:56 carry the inherent element of 'purpose.' Nothing is created without a 'purpose' in the context of the Quran.
You begin with right thinking about "created" and "a purpose" but you deviate from this point when it comes to "not created" and "not a purpose".

If Allah says, "not created" then Allah is also telling you what was "not a purpose" (worship other gods).

I will keep explaining my point until the penny drops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I understand the majority is never always right, but in this case, 51:56 is a very simple sentence with double negative elements.
There is only one negative in it ("ma"). It must not be taken out or else the meaning will change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Thus these 49 English translations of 51:56 are correct and agree with what I had proposed in the other thread.
You agree with many of them; rather than they agree with you. You make the same mistake as they made in understanding the verse. You basically copied their mistake.

The message in 51:56 is:

Allah did not create jinn and humans to worship other gods such as idols or Baal.
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Old 12-19-2016, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Why are you starting so many threads about the same verse? Could you not discuss the verse in the same thread?

It will make no difference even if you place "illa" ("except") where it is placed in the Arabic. The meaning would be the same.

The meaning will change only when you completely take out "not" and "except".

It is utterly wrong to replace "not created" with "created". The moment you do that, you have utterly mistranslated the verse.

Shakir is correct and Pickthall utterly wrong.

The verse is not telling us why Allah had "created" jinn and humans but is telling us what jinn and humans were "not created" for (that they should serve any other god).

You can't regard it "easier to understand message" when the message in its original form hasn't even been understood by you yet? It means you wanted to alter the verse so that you could create a message that you had in your mind even before you understood the verse.

The end result is that you wanted to create a message that you wanted by getting rid of two words from the verse. Each word in the verse is there for a precise reason. Without any such word, the verse is not going to have the original message in it. And that's what you and many translators have done to the verse. Once understood it properly, it is up to me to correct the wrong done to the verse meaning. I will keep doing my best to correct the wrong done by others.

You begin with right thinking about "created" and "a purpose" but you deviate from this point when it comes to "not created" and "not a purpose".

If Allah says, "not created" then Allah is also telling you what was "not a purpose" (worship other gods).

I will keep explaining my point until the penny drops.

There is only one negative in it ("ma"). It must not be taken out or else the meaning will change.

You agree with many of them; rather than they agree with you. You make the same mistake as they made in understanding the verse. You basically copied their mistake.

The message in 51:56 is:

Allah did not create jinn and humans to worship other gods such as idols or Baal.
I suggest you loosen up a bit on your confirmation bias and reflect on 51:56 from the basis of the whole Quran to understand why your views on 51:56 is so different from the rest of Muslims and non-Muslims.

Note 10:5 and many other similar verses;
10:5 Allah created not (all) that save in truth.
Since the above has a double-negative element we can remove the 'not' and 'save' [except], i.e.
10:5 Allah created [](all) that [] in truth.
The point is whether we remove or do not remove the words in print, the basic message is
10:5 Allah created (all) that in truth.
What we are interested is the basic message, i.e. the essential message of the verse.
The 'not' and 'except' are merely to emphasize the point, not to change the basic message of the verse.



For example;

If I say to someone;

Do not eat what is on that table except [to eat the] apples.

Now when the person heard my statement, the essential message is;

Do [] eat what is on that table, [] [to eat the] apples.

or to write properly, it is

Do eat only apples on that table.

When the person actually act on it,
That person will only eat apples and nothing else.

As you can see from;
... "Do not eat what is on that table except [to eat the] apples."
the essential message is;
... "Do eat only apples on that table."
If the person get the message;
That person will only eat apples.

Isn't it easier to just state,
... 1. "Eat only apples on that table."
instead of the long winded;
... 2. Do not eat what is on that table except [to eat the] apples.

As you can see the basic message is the same for 1 and 2, the difference for the longer winded statement is merely an emphasis 'except.'
Both 1 and 2 will achieve the same result if the message is understood and carried out.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-19-2016 at 10:01 PM..
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Old 12-20-2016, 07:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I suggest you loosen up a bit on your confirmation bias and reflect on 51:56 from the basis of the whole Quran to understand why your views on 51:56 is so different from the rest of Muslims and non-Muslims.

Note 10:5 and many other similar verses;
10:5 Allah created not (all) that save in truth.
Since the above has a double-negative element we can remove the 'not' and 'save' [except], i.e.
10:5 Allah created [](all) that [] in truth.
Allah is not saying, "Allah created (all) that" but "Allah created not (all) that". This is the fundamental statement from Allah.

Allah then goes on to say, "save in truth". What does "save in truth" mean?

It means "other than in truth".

"Other than in truth" is "in falsehood".

Thus we arrive at the true meaning of the part verse 10:5:

"... Allah created not (all) that in falsehood (without purpose)". This is the same message as in 38:27.


[38.27] And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them in vain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point is whether we remove or do not remove the words in print, the basic message is
10:5 Allah created (all) that in truth.
The basic message is: Allah did not create heavens and earth in falsehood or without purpose.

As you can see, I have not removed the only negative particle "not" and still arrived at the basic message.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What we are interested is the basic message, i.e. the essential message of the verse.
I have given you the essential message of the verse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The 'not' and 'except' are merely to emphasize the point, not to change the basic message of the verse.
These words are there to complete the meaning of the verse. Without them, the meaning will be different than what Allah is saying through the verse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
For example;

If I say to someone;

Do not eat what is on that table except [to eat the] apples.

Now when the person heard my statement, the essential message is;

Do [] eat what is on that table, [] [to eat the] apples.

or to write properly, it is

Do eat only apples on that table.
LOL! Why did you have hiccup in translating what you had said?

Why say, "Do not eat what is on that table except [to eat the] apples" or even "Do eat what is on that table, [to eat the] apples" when a much shorter, "Do eat only apples on that table" would have done it if that is what you really wanted to say to him???

In reality, what you have told the person is, "Do not eat what is on the table other than apples". You have told him what not to eat. You haven't told him what to eat.

When reading the Qur'aan, it is vital to know what is stated there rather than read what is not stated there.

Here is a classic example of how people misinterpret the Qur'aan wrongly when not reading what is stated but read what is not stated there:

[4.43] O you who believe! Do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated...

Does the message say, "Do not go near prayer when you are intoxicated (drunk)" or does it say, "you can be intoxicated (drunk) when not near prayer"?

The verse is saying nothing about being intoxicated when not near prayer so why even think so. It is vital to understand the stated message rather than think what is not stated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
When the person actually act on it,
That person will only eat apples and nothing else.
When the person acts upon your instructions, he will not eat anything that you told him not to eat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As you can see from;
... "Do not eat what is on that table except [to eat the] apples."
the essential message is;
... "Do eat only apples on that table."
Absolutely ridiculous!
You haven't told him "what to eat". You have told him "what not to eat".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If the person get the message;
That person will only eat apples.
If the person gets the message, he will not eat anything on the table. He likes to eat banana and grapes only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Isn't it easier to just state,
... 1. "Eat only apples on that table."
instead of the long winded;
... 2. Do not eat what is on that table except [to eat the] apples.
Exactly my point!

If you wanted him to eat only apples, you would have said, "Eat only apples". You would not mention anything else. But what you really wanted was him not to eat anything else on the table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As you can see the basic message is the same for 1 and 2, the difference for the longer winded statement is merely an emphasis 'except.'
Both 1 and 2 will achieve the same result if the message is understood and carried out.
You have just made a mess of understanding of even your own message to that person. How are you going to understand the message in 51:56?
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Allah is not saying, "Allah created (all) that" but "Allah created not (all) that". This is the fundamental statement from Allah.

Allah then goes on to say, "save in truth". What does "save in truth" mean?

It means "other than in truth".

"Other than in truth" is "in falsehood".

Thus we arrive at the true meaning of the part verse 10:5:

"... Allah created not (all) that in falsehood (without purpose)". This is the same message as in 38:27.
What you do not see from the above verses in context of the whole Quran is this;
1. Allah created all things in truth
6:73. He [Allah] it is Who created the heavens and the Earth in truth.
2. Allah did not create all things except in truth.
10:5 Allah created not (all) that save[except] in truth.
If you reflect more deeply, the basis message is 6:73 in positive mode.
10:5 is double negative mode is merely to emphasize the positive as in 6:73.

If Allah did not create all in falsehood [10:5], then Allah MUST have created all in truth [6:73].

Therefore the main purpose of 10:5 in double negative mode is to emphasize the positive mode, i.e. we have to remove the two negatives to reveal the basic message.

51:56, 38:27 and other critical verses are all the same.
They all has double negative elements to emphasize the basic positive message which are stated in other verses in the Quran.

You will note in the Quran, Allah is very fond of being repetitive and some of these repetitions are emphasized with double negatives, i.e. "alla" [direct negative] with "illa" [subtle negative].

In the case of 51:56, the critical elements therein, i.e. "creation of all" and "ya'budu Me" are presented in positive all over the Quran.



Quote:
[38.27] And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them in vain
The basic message is: Allah did not create heavens and earth in falsehood or without purpose.
As you can see, I have not removed the only negative particle "not" and still arrived at the basic message.
I have given you the essential message of the verse.
These words are there to complete the meaning of the verse. Without them, the meaning will be different than what Allah is saying through the verse.
Note my explanation above which in principle is applicable to all "illa" [200 to 300++ of them] that are complimented by an "alla" or other obvious negatives.


Quote:
LOL! Why did you have hiccup in translating what you had said?

Why say, "Do not eat what is on that table except [to eat the] apples" or even "Do eat what is on that table, [to eat the] apples" when a much shorter, "Do eat only apples on that table" would have done it if that is what you really wanted to say to him???

In reality, what you have told the person is, "Do not eat what is on the table other than apples". You have told him what not to eat. You haven't told him what to eat.

When reading the Qur'aan, it is vital to know what is stated there rather than read what is not stated there.

Here is a classic example of how people misinterpret the Qur'aan wrongly when not reading what is stated but read what is not stated there:

[4.43] O you who believe! Do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated...

Does the message say, "Do not go near prayer when you are intoxicated (drunk)" or does it say, "you can be intoxicated (drunk) when not near prayer"?

The verse is saying nothing about being intoxicated when not near prayer so why even think so. It is vital to understand the stated message rather than think what is not stated.

When the person acts upon your instructions, he will not eat anything that you told him not to eat.

Absolutely ridiculous!
You haven't told him "what to eat". You have told him "what not to eat".

If the person gets the message, he will not eat anything on the table. He likes to eat banana and grapes only.

Exactly my point!

If you wanted him to eat only apples, you would have said, "Eat only apples". You would not mention anything else. But what you really wanted was him not to eat anything else on the table.

You have just made a mess of understanding of even your own message to that person. How are you going to understand the message in 51:56?
Don't laugh [LOL] too soon!

In my example there are few critical elements, i.e.

1. Eating food
2. Other fruits on the table
3. Eating apples.

Why I use "Do not eat what is on that table except [to eat the] apples" is the same reason Allah used 51:56, i.e. I want to emphasize 'eating only apples' by negating 'eating other fruits.'
Note the negation [negative element] in this case.

I have not brought in context in my example.
If the context is say,
I am talking to my young son.
The other fruits [except] apples on the tables are already reserved to some specific people as promised.
In this case, I want to emphasize why my son should only eat apples by using 'except'.

The context could also be the other fruits have not been washed and those other fruits are from orchards that used a lot of insecticides, etc.

In the above case the context is not merely eating apples, but the other context is also about eating fruits.
The wider context is about 'eating.'
It could be my son has not ate the whole day and there are only the fruits on the table in the house at that time and it is already night. So the context here is more about eating due to hunger.

In my case, I can bring in millions of contexts in why 'eat not others except apples.'
So don't laugh [LOL] too soon as you note you are only laughing at your own narrow views.

But in the Quran the context relating to 51:56 is already determined by Allah immutable words.
Note my example of 'contexting' 10:5 [double negative] with 6:73 [positive].

So,
The above proof conclude that your view [the only exceptional one] on 51:56 is wrong while those of the majority [including mine] is correct!
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Old 12-21-2016, 12:23 AM
 
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Here is another set of examples where alla is paired with illa as an emphasis to a positive statements of the same basic message;

The Positive Statement;
14:19. Hast thou not seen that Allah hath created the heavens and the Earth with truth?

16:3. He [Allah] hath created the heavens and the Earth with truth. High be He exalted above all that they associate (with Him).

29:44. Allah created the heavens and the Earth with truth. Lo! therein is indeed a portent for believers.

39:5. He [Allah] hath created the heavens and the Earth with truth.

45:22. And Allah hath created the heavens and the Earth with truth, and that every soul may be repaid what it hath earned. And they will not be wronged.

64:3. He [Allah] created the heavens and the Earth with truth [bil-ḥaqi], and He shaped you [Muslims] and made good your [Muslims] shapes, and unto Him is the journeying [of the Muslims].


The double Negative as Emphasis to the Positive Statement;
15:85. We created not the heavens and the Earth and all that is between them save [except] with truth,

30:8. Have they [infidels] not pondered upon themselves?
Allah created not the heavens and the Earth, and that which is between them, save [except] with truth and for a destined end.

44:39. We created them [heavens & Earth] not save with truth; but most of them [infidels] know not.

46:3. We created not the heavens and the Earth and all that is between them save with truth [bil-ḥaqi:], and for a term appointed.


As you will note the double negative statements with 'alla' paired with "illa' is to emphasize and reinforce the positive statement "created ... with truth."

The "not created" in the double negative statements has no meaningful elements except to serve as a grammatical element to be balanced and negated by "illa."
After all, that "Allah did not create humans.." is an absurd statement since humans are created by Allah [per Quran] and in existence.

From the above and in context of the whole Quran, the positive basic message is;
He [Allah] hath created the heavens and the Earth with truth.
and the double negative elements are to emphasize the critical positive statement.

To prove my point; if we remove the double negative terms in the above verses, they will all be the same and exactly as the intended positive verses.

The above principles of the double negative are applicable to 51:56.

The positive statement, related to 51:56 in various verses and forms all over the Quran, is as follow;
I [Allah] created [purpose implied] jinn and humankind to ya'budu Me.
The double negative 51:56, i.e.
I [Allah] did not create [purpose implied] jinn and humankind except to ya'budu Me.
I am not a Muslim but it is at least for intellectual integrity and objectivity sake that I want to express Allah's intended message within the Islam-box.
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Old 12-21-2016, 02:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What you do not see from the above verses in context of the whole Quran is this;
1. Allah created all things in truth
6:73. He [Allah] it is Who created the heavens and the Earth in truth.
2. Allah did not create all things except in truth.
10:5 Allah created not (all) that save[except] in truth.
If you reflect more deeply, the basis message is 6:73 in positive mode.
10:5 is double negative mode is merely to emphasize the positive as in 6:73.

If Allah did not create all in falsehood [10:5], then Allah MUST have created all in truth [6:73].

Therefore the main purpose of 10:5 in double negative mode is to emphasize the positive mode, i.e. we have to remove the two negatives to reveal the basic message.

51:56, 38:27 and other critical verses are all the same.
They all has double negative elements to emphasize the basic positive message which are stated in other verses in the Quran.

You will note in the Quran, Allah is very fond of being repetitive and some of these repetitions are emphasized with double negatives, i.e. "alla" [direct negative] with "illa" [subtle negative].

In the case of 51:56, the critical elements therein, i.e. "creation of all" and "ya'budu Me" are presented in positive all over the Quran.



Note my explanation above which in principle is applicable to all "illa" [200 to 300++ of them] that are complimented by an "alla" or other obvious negatives.


Don't laugh [LOL] too soon!

In my example there are few critical elements, i.e.

1. Eating food
2. Other fruits on the table
3. Eating apples.

Why I use "Do not eat what is on that table except [to eat the] apples" is the same reason Allah used 51:56, i.e. I want to emphasize 'eating only apples' by negating 'eating other fruits.'
Note the negation [negative element] in this case.
Exactly my point!

You are negating only "eating other fruits" and not the apples too. Therefore, using "except" ("illa") with apples do not make it a double negative. You are admitting it here that eating apples is not negative.

You are negating only "eating other fruits". thus there is only one negative in there.

The same applies to 51:56 and the other verses with one negative and "except" as exceptive or restrictive; there is only one negative in them. When are you going to realize it?

You know very well that there is only one negative in them but you are hell bent on denying it.
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Old 12-21-2016, 02:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is another set of examples where alla is paired with illa as an emphasis to a positive statements of the same basic message;

The Positive Statement;
14:19. Hast thou not seen that Allah hath created the heavens and the Earth with truth?

16:3. He [Allah] hath created the heavens and the Earth with truth. High be He exalted above all that they associate (with Him).

29:44. Allah created the heavens and the Earth with truth. Lo! therein is indeed a portent for believers.

39:5. He [Allah] hath created the heavens and the Earth with truth.

45:22. And Allah hath created the heavens and the Earth with truth, and that every soul may be repaid what it hath earned. And they will not be wronged.

64:3. He [Allah] created the heavens and the Earth with truth [bil-ḥaqi], and He shaped you [Muslims] and made good your [Muslims] shapes, and unto Him is the journeying [of the Muslims].


The double Negative as Emphasis to the Positive Statement;
15:85. We created not the heavens and the Earth and all that is between them save [except] with truth,

30:8. Have they [infidels] not pondered upon themselves?
Allah created not the heavens and the Earth, and that which is between them, save [except] with truth and for a destined end.

44:39. We created them [heavens & Earth] not save with truth; but most of them [infidels] know not.

46:3. We created not the heavens and the Earth and all that is between them save with truth [bil-ḥaqi:], and for a term appointed.


As you will note the double negative statements with 'alla' paired with "illa' is to emphasize and reinforce the positive statement "created ... with truth."

The "not created" in the double negative statements has no meaningful elements except to serve as a grammatical element to be balanced and negated by "illa."
After all, that "Allah did not create humans.." is an absurd statement since humans are created by Allah [per Quran] and in existence.

From the above and in context of the whole Quran, the positive basic message is;
He [Allah] hath created the heavens and the Earth with truth.
and the double negative elements are to emphasize the critical positive statement.

To prove my point; if we remove the double negative terms in the above verses, they will all be the same and exactly as the intended positive verses.

The above principles of the double negative are applicable to 51:56.

The positive statement, related to 51:56 in various verses and forms all over the Quran, is as follow;
I [Allah] created [purpose implied] jinn and humankind to ya'budu Me.
The double negative 51:56, i.e.
I [Allah] did not create [purpose implied] jinn and humankind except to ya'budu Me.
I am not a Muslim but it is at least for intellectual integrity and objectivity sake that I want to express Allah's intended message within the Islam-box.
There is no double negative in the first lot.

For the second lot, see my explanation in my last post about "except" not being negative.
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Old 12-21-2016, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There is no double negative in the first lot.

For the second lot, see my explanation in my last post about "except" not being negative.
Yes, there is no double negatives in the first lot. There is no single negative as well.
However the basic meaning of the two lot is the same for all the verses listed in both lots.

The point is if we are to use a negative [alla, etc.] as a means to emphasize, then, it must be paired with another negative [illa] to ensure the basic meaning is intact.

Linguistically, "except" has a few grammatical function, e.g. preposition, conjunction, or restrictive or exceptive particle as you claim.
However in context, except is also a negative particle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
The Arabic word illa is a negative word corresponding to the English except, only and but.
[1] - "USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts". Retrieved 2006-09-12.
At the basic, except definitely has an inherent negative quality in the specific context like 51:56 and the examples [200+ verses] I have given.

As I have demonstrated above my claim can be proven by testing.

The proof is confirmed is you remove all the paired negatives in the second lot, the basic meaning is the same with the first lot without double negative.
This prove that the double negative is merely a grammatical element to add emphasis and not to change the basic meaning.


Thus for 51:56, whether presented as;
And not I have created the jinn and the mankind except that they worship Me.
or removing the paired negatives;
And [] I have created the jinn and the mankind [] that they worship Me.
convey the same basic meaning, the difference is only the emphasis.
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